SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector

[CMIZ5290]

I'm really surprised nobody has brought this subject up. But, most members on this Forum seem to prefer SGC. SGC cards are bringing a fraction of what PSA cards sell for, primarily in high grade...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I'm really surprised nobody has brought this subject up. SGC cards are bringing a fraction of what PSA cards are selling for, and I mean a fraction. I have said on this forum for years that PSA is far superior, extremely better resale value, but this latest trend is crazy, believe me. I actually think it's going to get worse. SGC 84's for $250-300? I have observed a lot of recently graded SGC t206s.....Ridiculous, not even close to PSA. I have a lot of SGC graded T206s, and I have been losing my ass. PSA will not cross them, so do you grab your nuts and crack them?


I don't collect T206's, but have thought about it on investment purposes based on the factors you stated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Econteachert205]

Kevin, I have of course noticed the same price gaps between sgc and psa. Just curious why they won't cross?

[pokerplyr80]

It's not just 206s either, I have noticed the same trend on many pre and post war cards. I'm not sure if it's due to the PSA registry or the perception that the standards are tougher at PSA. But it's clear that if you're buying cards as an investment PSA is the way to go.

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin, I have of course noticed the same price gaps between sgc and psa. Just curious why they won't cross?

I'm sure a lot of it is political, for whatever that's worth. The bottom line is SGC graded cards are nowhere near as strong as PSA, especially right now. There are a couple of T206 HOFer SGC 84's on Ebay right now that are ridiculous looking for the grade.

[Touch'EmAll]

This year I joined PSA and tried to cross a handful of high end cards ($750-$3500.). I only was successful with a Ty Cobb Colgan's Chips going from SGC 88, now PSA 8. There went a few hundred bucks out the window.

But I do know I bought the SGC cards for less - thats why I bought them. So I have decided to pay less for SGC, keep them, and be ok with that. Whenever I do sell, remember I paid less for them to begin with.

My SGC purchases are few these days, way vast majority of my stuff is PSA. For me to buy SGC they have to be 55/45 or better centered, and solid for the grade corners per my own eye. For instance, I picked up a sweet 1955 Topps Aaron SGC 88 that i swear up and down is every bit the equivalent of PSA 8, but I paid less, will keep in SGC, and be happy.

The way SGC grades off center material is one of their biggest pitfalls, they should have had OC designations like PSA - then bet SGC would fare better overall, just my 2 cents.

SGC does, however, grade a few issues PSA does not - I send them to SGC, no problems - example s74 silks, old Wheaties issues.

Pay no more than 80 percent of avg. PSA sales value,get very nice centered items, scrutinize corners with your own eye, then ok to buy SGC.

Done with crossovers, too many certain words exit my mouth. And too much money leaves my wallet.

[Econteachert205]

I collect lower grade tobacco so it effects me less. I can appreciate not wanting to crack and resubmit. I have bought cards graded good and very good that if resubmitted would only grade fair or poor. Again it matters less at the low end but if you have a nm in sgc t206 and you crack and resubmit and it only scores a 6 that could be hundreds of dollars. I have to believe it's mostly a registry issue, I think the bulk of collectors are aware sgc is reputable.

[CMIZ5290]

This year I joined PSA and tried to cross a handful of high end cards ($750-$3500.). I only was successful with a Ty Cobb Colgan's Chips going from SGC 88, now PSA 8. There went a few hundred bucks out the window.

But I do know I bought the SGC cards for less - thats why I bought them. So I have decided to pay less for SGC, keep them, and be ok with that. Whenever I do sell, remember I paid less for them to begin with.

My SGC purchases are few these days, way vast majority of my stuff is PSA. For me to buy SGC they have to be 55/45 or better centered, and solid for the grade corners per my own eye. For instance, I picked up a sweet 1955 Topps Aaron SGC 88 that i swear up and down is every bit the equivalent of PSA 8, but I paid less, will keep in SGC, and be happy.

The way SGC grades off center material is one of their biggest pitfalls, they should have had OC designations like PSA - then bet SGC would fare better overall, just my 2 cents.

SGC does, however, grade a few issues PSA does not - I send them to SGC, no problems - example s74 silks, old Wheaties issues.

Pay no more than 80 percent of avg. PSA sales value,get very nice centered items, scrutinize corners with your own eye, then ok to buy SGC.

Done with crossovers, too many certain words exit my mouth. And too much money leaves my wallet.

I hear you, just out of curiousity, what did you pay for the SGC 88 54 Topps Aaron? Now, what's it worth in a PSA 8?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I hear you, just out of curiousity, what did you pay for the SGC 88 54 Topps Aaron? Now, what's it worth in a PSA 8? Please be honest....

He said 55 not the rookie.

[CMIZ5290]

I collect lower grade tobacco so it effects me less. I can appreciate not wanting to crack and resubmit. I have bought cards graded good and very good that if resubmitted would only grade fair or poor. Again it matters less at the low end but if you have a nm in sgc t206 and you crack and resubmit and it only scores a 6 that could be hundreds of dollars. I have to believe it's mostly a registry issue, I think the bulk of collectors are aware sgc is reputable.

Dennis.....Again, it's about value. I have never said SGC is not reputable, they are, absolutely...What I'm talking about is true value for the dollar, it's not even close....

[CMIZ5290]

He said 55 not the rookie.

Thanks for the clarification Peter, but it really does not matter...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Part of it is that for the most part PSA now has incredibly strict grading standards. Today's 7 is yesterday's 8. I have seen 5s and 6s that are NM to the eye and almost certainly would have graded higher in years past. So in a sense it's not apples to apples, as SGC grading seems to have stayed more consistent.

[CMIZ5290]

Part of it is that for the most part PSA now has incredibly strict grading standards. Today's 7 is yesterday's 8. I have seen 5s and 6s that are NM to the eye and almost certainly would have graded higher in years past. So in a sense it's not apples to apples, as SGC grading seems to have stayed more consistent.

Peter, forget all that...Come on...A T206 PSA 7 Cobb vs. an SGC 84 Cobb, same card, same centering, same everything.....Value?

[chaddurbin]

Part of it is that for the most part PSA now has incredibly strict grading standards. Today's 7 is yesterday's 8. I have seen 5s and 6s that are NM to the eye and almost certainly would have graded higher in years past. So in a sense it's not apples to apples, as SGC grading seems to have stayed more consistent.

not sure about post-war, but modern stuff they're handing out GEM MINT 10s left and right. imo it's great for prewar collectors if the sgc/psa value gap is that big, you get more bang for the bucks with sgc cards.

[Econteachert205]

Dennis.....Again, it's about value. I have never said SGC is not reputable, they are, absolutely...What I'm talking about is true value for the dollar, it's not even close....


Right, so I was thinking of where the extra value came from. If both companies are reputable then there is only a limited amount of variables contributing to psa's enhanced appeal. The registry seems to be the biggest factor. However some of the grading advantages in terms of a lack of qualifiers are also valid for sure. If I was sgc I would certainly take these concerns seriously and take steps to assure customers cards values are protected.

[CMIZ5290]

not sure about post-war, but modern stuff they're handing out GEM MINT 10s left and right. imo it's great for prewar collectors if the sgc/psa value gap is that big, you get more bang for the bucks with sgc cards.

Quan, so you obviously agree about the difference in the value, right? That is all I was trying to state at the beginning of the thread...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, forget all that...Come on...A T206 PSA 7 Cobb vs. an SGC 84 Cobb, same card, same centering, same everything.....Value?

PSA will sell for more but in part that is because there is a perception that PSA is stricter. The registry is less of a factor than it used to be IMO. Many or most of the current major collectors have built their sets and in some cases are getting out. Low pop commons ain't what they used to be.

[CMIZ5290]

PSA will sell for more but in part that is because there is a perception that PSA is stricter.

My perception is I have an SGC 84 Waddell that can be bought for $1250. The last PSA 7 I saw went for over $2500....Perception, or reality???

[68Hawk]

Great news!
SGC is the only way I like to go. Cheaper too? Hell yeh!

[CMIZ5290]

Great news!
SGC is the only way I like to go. Cheaper too? Hell yeh!

Agreed...:D

[GregMitch34]

If many SGC cards are worth, say, 4/5s of PSA cards, and you pay accordingly, then no problem. That's already been going on. The only question is: are many SGC cards now plunging, or at least declining, in value? Then there's a problem. You paid less for them but now they are not even keeping their half of the "bargain." If that's what's happening.

[t206fix]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walter-Johnson-T206-PSA-2-Good-/181789710984?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a5382da88&nma=true&si=psB9UP%252B1wcqd9K%252FE26Yw4T2210I%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Buy the card, not the holder...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Dennis.....Again, it's about value. I have never said SGC is not reputable, they are, absolutely...What I'm talking about is true value for the dollar, it's not even close....

I have been arguing this point from the beginning..also on private deals with people here who always argue 'pre-war sgc is just as good' .

[1952boyntoncollector]

Right, so I was thinking of where the extra value came from. If both companies are reputable then there is only a limited amount of variables contributing to psa's enhanced appeal. The registry seems to be the biggest factor. However some of the grading advantages in terms of a lack of qualifiers are also valid for sure. If I was sgc I would certainly take these concerns seriously and take steps to assure customers cards values are protected.

I guess buy the holder not the card

[wonkaticket]

The value of most "quality" cards isn't determined by a major TPG holder. Yes will certain cards sell for more over another sure that's the hobby. Will some things in PSA get more due to registry no doubt. In the end if you're buying nice examples of cards in any grade that tick all the boxes (centering, color, register) in either SGC or PSA you will be fine.

[Vintagecatcher]

Has anyone here forgot how PSA launched their brand with the T206 Wagner...strict grades...what BS!

Patrick

[SMPEP]

Sorry Peter, I have to say BS that PSA is stricter. Here's a PSA 7 (HA!) 1952 Billy Martin for you. Who gives a rat's @$$ if the corners are sharp. You can barely make him out because of the OBVIOUS registration errors. (And for the t206 freak collectors - no, this doesn't make this card more vluable - there are TONS of cards like this troughout this set. Dozens are on Ebay right now.)

Heck, even the centering isn't great.

That card grade is garbage.

PSA should be embarassed.

Cheers,
Patrick Prickett (in case I need my full nae on this one)

[1880nonsports]

you were joking right???? Countless examples of inept grading for all the companies - see the last Heritage auction with PSA 7's that have front and back paper loss.
The major TPG's do a decent job with regard to authenticity and more easily discernable faults. You're not submitting to some kind of crime lab - for the ten bucks no-one is taking out the micrometer or neutron scale. ANYONE can render an opinion about a "grade". Such grades really only matter in terms of commerce - buying and selling the commodity.
Historically PSA cards have been shown to bring higher prices on many issues. They were first, better advertised, and developed the wildly successful registry. With the passage of time SGC has taken over the larger share of the more niche-like 19th century market and made inroads in the "T" card market. I think they do a better job, the holders look nicer, they offer excellent customer service. That said - it's a personal preference thing - you align yourself with the company whose condition/grade parameters feel "right".

[1952boyntoncollector]

you were joking right???? Countless examples of inept grading for all the companies - see the last Heritage auction with PSA 7's that have front and back paper loss.
The major TPG's do a decent job with regard to authenticity and more easily discernable faults. You're not submitting to some kind of crime lab - for the ten bucks no-one is taking out the micrometer or neutron scale. ANYONE can render an opinion about a "grade". Such grades really only matter in terms of commerce - buying and selling the commodity.
Historically PSA cards have been shown to bring higher prices on many issues. They were first, better advertised, and developed the wildly successful registry. With the passage of time SGC has taken over the larger share of the more niche-like 19th century market and made inroads in the "T" card market. I think they do a better job, the holders look nicer, they offer excellent customer service. That said - it's a personal preference thing - you align yourself with the company whose condition/grade parameters feel "right".


right heres another 'sgc is better for prewar' it is what it is....PSA sells for more than SGC on a large scale.....theres always bad examples for each in terms of why a grade was given.....you can buy sgc cards cheaper for the same grade as psa.... which is fine for the people who want cards cheaper and who believe the card looks the same as the psa counterpart.....really no problem there....just don't expect to get the same money back as the psa counterpart ..it can happen from time to time of course..

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not joking at all. Ask people who submit regularly (that is, people not getting favors or to put it more charitably benefits of the doubt, and I am sure there are some of those) and they will tell you that these days -- which is all I said in my post -- PSA is very strict with grades. I have seen numerous examples of this.

My observation is not at all contradicted by the fact that in its 24 year history PSA has overgraded many cards or graded many altered cards. Of course they have.

I have no doubt that if you took a cross section of mid to high grade cards with no paper loss or wrinkles, and had someone unknown to either company submit them, the PSA batch would grade lower in the aggregate. That is not a criticism of SGC, just an observation that the grading standards are not the same these days.

And putting up a single example of an overgraded PSA card to prove your point is really not a very good argument. I am talking about overall, in the aggregate, etc.

[rocarroll]

I don't know why PSA's sell for more, probably a "self fulfilling prophecy" because people think they are worth more and should sell for more so they pay more for no other reason than that. It's certainly not for PSA's beautiful holders in comparison to SGC

I keep hearing about PSA being stricter in their grading. I disagree on that, at least in the low to mid grade cards say grades 2-6. SGC has been crazy picky on some of the cards that I have had graded and when it comes to any type of paper loss I've found them to be much harder on that than PSA. I've submitted to both many times and have had many more comparison cards. Depending on the issue(s) that a card may have that usually determines where I send it (that and whether or SGC has a good monthly special :) ) If the card has a small amount of paper loss I can be certain that SGC is going to grade that 1.5 or maybe 2. I can usually get a 3 out PSA all other things being equal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't know why PSA's sell for more, probably a "self fulfilling prophecy" because people think they are worth more and should sell for more so they pay more for no other reason than that. It's certainly not for PSA's beautiful holders in comparison to SGC

I keep hearing about PSA being stricter in their grading. I disagree on that, at least in the low to mid grade cards say grades 2-6. SGC has been crazy picky on some of the cards that I have had graded and when it comes to any type of paper loss I've found them to be much harder on that than PSA. I've submitted to both many times and have had many more comparison cards. Depending on the issue(s) that a card may have that usually determines where I send it (that and whether or SGC has a good monthly special :) ) If the card has a small amount of paper loss I can be certain that SGC is going to grade that 1.5 or maybe 2. I can usually get a 3 out PSA all other things being equal.

Fair point. I was not really talking about low grade cards with wrinkles or paper loss, but mid to high grade cards where the grade is going to depend on centering and corners.

[Touch'EmAll]

Kevin, I looked on ebay at the last 4 sold 1955 Topps Aaron PSA 8's. They ranged from $1,366. to $1,654. The SGC 88 I bought in 2014 I paid $850. plus $18. shipping. Bad news is big difference between SGC 88 and PSA 8. Good news is I paid $850. for the SGC 88. I am happy with the card, especially for the price I paid. Whenever I sell the card, I must remember what I paid and adjust expectations accordingly. I would imagine an Aaron run is a super highly competitive arena in the registry game - probably the biggest reason for difference?

[Joshchisox08]

Dennis.....Again, it's about value. I have never said SGC is not reputable, they are, absolutely...What I'm talking about is true value for the dollar, it's not even close....

I'm going to have to agree about the value but then disagree as far as grading is concerned. SGC is far better and light years more consistent than PSA is concerned.

SGC's presentation is far better. PSA's holder I feel keeps the card more secure though.

PSA's resale value is second to none. Why well it's the name of course. It's like selling a Kershaw(PSA) to a Chris Sale(SGC). One is overhyped and loses in the playoffs every year. And one quietly goes about his business dominating. But because the other is from LA (Kershaw/PSA) who gets more attention ????

I'll always like and trust SGC's grading consistency over PSA. I will also note that I will not buy a card slabbed with anything other than SGC or PSA.

[rocarroll]

Fair point. I was not really talking about low grade cards with wrinkles or paper loss, but mid to high grade cards where the grade is going to depend on centering and corners.

Understood. From what I've seen from you and the OP you guys tend to be more involved in the higher graded cards than I am so I have no frame of reference on those 6-8 type grades. I usually spend money on rarer backs and HOF as opposed to the ultra high grade so I've never subbed those high grades.

I have had several situations with paper loss with SGC that floored me with their strict grading. I had a BEAUTIFUL Zack Wheat that had some small paper chipping in the lower right corner. The card looked like at least a 7 it was that nice. But b/c of that small paper chip they gave it a 1.5. And that's just one example.

In regards to PSA vs SGC pricing, in my opinion I for the most part trust both companies grading and review of the cards the same in regards to trusting the card is what it is. If I am buying off EBAY I am not more or less worried about the card if its PSA or SGC. I personally wouldn't pay a dollar more for a PSA over an SGC with the same grade or vice versa if the cards looked to be in identical condition.

There are 2 reasons I have more SGC's that PSA and neither have to do with the quality of the grading. 1 is that normally it cost $17 per card with PSA and I can get it for $10 at SGC with their specials. The second reason is that as the OP said, PSA tends to sell for more so I've been able to get the SGC for cheaper.

[bnorth]

The part I don't get is the PSA people always say my cards sell for more. So what they paid more to get the card. A real comparison would be the difference in increase/decrease in value and not the selling price.

[1952boyntoncollector]

The part I don't get is the PSA people always say my cards sell for more. So what they paid more to get the card. A real comparison would be the difference in increase/decrease in value and not the selling price.

paying more for for the same grade for the psa versus the SGC proves they sell for more.

I do agree I don't think grading standards are better for PSA or that their holders are better .....its the analogy of the other thread about would you buy from someone you not like and I said if they are handing you free money or a bargain I think most people would put their feelings behind and buy the card

if a PSA and SGC card were selling for the same price from a private seller and the card looks the same I don't think the SGC lovers will end up buying the SGC card, they will take the PSA card because of sell price...even if they don't like the holder and don't think their grading standards are better.......money talks.

[GregMitch34]

No comparison at all between PSA and SGC values on CJ 14s. Quite stark and one of the most obvious pre-war. I imagine it's the registry.

[bounce]

When you say SGC cards won't "cross", is it safe to assume you mean they don't often crossover to the equivalent PSA grade?

You're not suggesting they won't cross at all, are you?

[glynparson]

I have very little problems getting cards that deserve the grade to cross. If you are picky and dont just assume it's going to cross I have had great success. I'd say around 70-80%. I usually crack those that don't cross and probably get the grade I wanted on about half of those. I have only had one come back altered after cracking I did miss the minor alteration and could see how the graders did as well so it didn't upset me they are human after all. I do agree that over a certain dollar amount they are very reluctant to cross cards. I am talking about under 5 figure cards.

[glchen]

I think if you randomly picked ten T206 cards in PSA 7 and ten T206 cards in SGC 84/7, and cracked them all out of their slabs, and sent them all to PSA, I'd think you'd find a significant number in both samples that would receive a grade lower than 7. I think the grading standards at PSA have gotten tougher in general where it can be more difficult to get cards in higher graded slabs than in the past. Saying that however, every collector who buys cards should look at the card before looking at the grade first. Think about how you think the raw card should grade, and then determine if the grade it did receive merited it. If you have a card that is strong for it's grade in an SGC holder, I would say that it would almost certainly cross over to PSA at that same grade or better.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I think if you randomly picked ten T206 cards in PSA 7 and ten T206 cards in SGC 84/7, and cracked them all out of their slabs, and sent them all to PSA, I'd think you'd find a significant number in both samples that would receive a grade lower than 7. I think the grading standards at PSA have gotten tougher in general where it can be more difficult to get cards in higher graded slabs than in the past. Saying that however, every collector who buys cards should look at the card before looking at the grade first. Think about how you think the raw card should grade, and then determine if the grade it did receive merited it. If you have a card that is strong for it's grade in an SGC holder, I would say that it would almost certainly cross over to PSA at that same grade or better.

I just buy sgc cards assuming ill get one grade lawyer with PSA...if sellers don't give value it like that than I don't buy the card...as time has gone on I have found more and more sellers willing to value the card one grade lower...afterall if the sellers are in the business to make money and they know a PSA sells for more..they would of cross graded it for the same grade if they were able or thought able too....thus I ask for the 1 grade lower discount..

[glchen]

Sometimes it's a pain to cross it even if you think the card will cross at the same grade. If you add the shipping costs both ways to the grading fee and add in say a 10% chance that the card won't cross even if you think it should, that's too much risk + cost to many sellers. However, as a card buyer, I agree that if you can get a one grade discount, that's definitely a way to protect yourself.

I don't think anyone sends their cards to SGC thinking they will get a higher grade than they would if they sent the card to PSA. Instead, it's usually they trust SGC to be more consistent with their grading, have better customer service, and get their cards back faster. In addition, if they have mixed size or different service level cards, SGC is more affordable.

[brewing]

I used to send 90% of my submissions to SGC, I now send 90% to PSA.

Outside of turnaround time PSA beats SGC up and down the block in everything else.

In the past 3 years the following actions have taken place by the companies.

SGC:
Revamped registry site, minimal improvement. Still irrelevant compared to PSA.
Changed flip and rechanged after customers voiced displeasure.

PSA:
New case which is harder to tamper with.
New Flip.
Upgraded Registry to allow for photo albums.
Released app that allows you to scan or input the registration number.

To me, it seems like either SGC isn't trying, doesn't want to improve , or is inept at marketing.

Brent Ingr@m

[1952boyntoncollector]

I used to send 90% of my submissions to SGC, I now send 90% to PSA.

Outside of turnaround time PSA beats SGC up and down the block in everything else.

In the past 3 years the following actions have taken place by the companies.

SGC:
Revamped registry site, minimal improvement. Still irrelevant compared to PSA.
Changed flip and rechanged after customers voiced displeasure.

PSA:
New case which is harder to tamper with.
New Flip.
Upgraded Registry to allow for photo albums.
Released app that allows you to scan or input the registration number.

To me, it seems like either SGC isn't trying, doesn't want to improve , or is inept at marketing.

Brent Ingr@m

I agree with everything you said.....plus I wonder how market share is with the 25-45 year olds..who will be defining the buying market the next 20 years..i assuming psa is getting a bigger market share ...

[rocarroll]

I don't know why PSA's sell for more, probably a "self fulfilling prophecy" because people think they are worth more and should sell for more so they pay more for no other reason than that. It's certainly not for PSA's beautiful holders in comparison to SGC

I keep hearing about PSA being stricter in their grading. I disagree on that, at least in the low to mid grade cards say grades 2-6. SGC has been crazy picky on some of the cards that I have had graded and when it comes to any type of paper loss I've found them to be much harder on that than PSA. I've submitted to both many times and have had many more comparison cards. Depending on the issue(s) that a card may have that usually determines where I send it (that and whether or SGC has a good monthly special :) ) If the card has a small amount of paper loss I can be certain that SGC is going to grade that 1.5 or maybe 2. I can usually get a 3 out PSA all other things being equal.

Piggy backing on what I said earlier about it being a "self fulfilling prophecy" I really do think it is a heard mentality. People think PSA is better cause that's what other people are telling them. Its almost like certain auctions that take place and their stuff sells for more just because they are selling it. Have you ever noticed when PWCC has an auction on EBAY their cards sell for about 30%or more than they would if I were selling them. I looked at that previous auction that closed recently and compared it to almost identically graded cards selling at the same time by individual buyers and they were going for way more. Tolstoi PSA 3's by an individual selling for in the $80s PWCC going for $110-120. In short its a reputation that has no real gold backing the currency so to speak. People just think its better.

If an industry wide rumor started next week that SGC was better within a month you would see the pricing reverse.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Piggy backing on what I said earlier about it being a "self fulfilling prophecy" I really do think it is a heard mentality. People think PSA is better cause that's what other people are telling them. Its almost like certain auctions that take place and their stuff sells for more just because they are selling it. Have you ever noticed when PWCC has an auction on EBAY their cards sell for about 30%or more than they would if I were selling them. I looked at that previous auction that closed recently and compared it to almost identically graded cards selling at the same time by individual buyers and they were going for way more. Tolstoi PSA 3's by an individual selling for in the $80s PWCC going for $110-120. In short its a reputation that has no real gold backing the currency so to speak. People just think its better.

If an industry wide rumor started next week that SGC was better within a month you would see the pricing reverse.

when talking about things with no real useful purpose....value is what people will pay for things...so whatever mentality it is why people by things..its the fact they are buying them.....value is what someone will pay for it..so what people think no matter what the reason is what the market is..

[rocarroll]

when talking about things with no real useful purpose....value is what people will pay for things...so whatever mentality it is why people by things..its the fact they are buying them.....value is what someone will pay for it..so what people think no matter what the reason is what the market is..

Agree with you 100% I think there are two questions, one of which seems to have been answered "yes" by the sell history. Does a PSA sell for higher on average than SGC - yes. The other being is PSA actually better than SGC and actually adds value because of something tangible, i.e. finds flaws that the other doesn't find thus its grades are more legit or is it just because that it is generally accepted to be the case. As you said, either way, the market is the market regardless of the reason. But as anything that doesn't have real value, that is subject to change depending on how the wind blows popular opinion. Spend a lot of money today on PSA because that's the "rumor" and you could lose a lot tomorrow because the "rumor" changes.

[brewing]

I think PSA is the #1 TPG because they innovate and market their product. That is what drives their brand, not collectors following rumors.
Case in point: do a web search of baseball card grading blogs/articles and you'll see people listing the 2 major TPGs as PSA and Beckett. It's quite sad actually.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Agree with you 100% I think there are two questions, one of which seems to have been answered "yes" by the sell history. Does a PSA sell for higher on average than SGC - yes. The other being is PSA actually better than SGC and actually adds value because of something tangible, i.e. finds flaws that the other doesn't find thus its grades are more legit or is it just because that it is generally accepted to be the case. As you said, either way, the market is the market regardless of the reason. But as anything that doesn't have real value, that is subject to change depending on how the wind blows popular opinion. Spend a lot of money today on PSA because that's the "rumor" and you could lose a lot tomorrow because the "rumor" changes.


PSA is so strong that you would be talking a major major rumer...some rumors that could further kill the other TPG would do nothing to PSA......anything can happen of course but going to take more than just a normal 'rumor' to change the current perception of the ebay buyers out there..

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

If SGC was smart they'd rebrand their registry by allowing other TPG holders so that collectors with mixed sets could register all their cards in one spot.

[1952boyntoncollector]

If SGC was smart they'd rebrand their registry by allowing other TPG holders so that collectors with mixed sets could register all their cards in one spot.

I always wondered that...I also wondered why hasn't PSA made a mid grade classification for older cards...best psa 4-5 set etc....so all of sudden people would be fighting for and bidding on psa 5 goudeys for example....in boxing you have different weight classes...my analogy would be you could be the best in your class..even its psa 5

in addition...to protect from fraud I wonder why they don't allow registered owners to be contacted by prospective buyers of a card (in a way to protect privacy ) to see if the card they are bidding on is real...example..you see a cert verified 1952 mantle psa 4...and would like to bid on it..wouldn't it be nice to have an email sent to the person that owns that card who can advise if his card is really on ebay..?

[callou2131]

I would love to send a T206 to BGS just to see the confusion on the graders face

[brewing]

I agree with everything you said.....plus I wonder how market share is with the 25-45 year olds..who will be defining the buying market the next 20 years..i assuming psa is getting a bigger market share ...


I believe you are correct.

PSA tries to reach the younger demographic. While both have Twitter accounts, PSA uses theirs, while SGC hasn't posted in several years. It's FREE advertising, yet SGC ignores it.

This should matter to collectors with cards in SGC slabs. In 10 years, will SGC slabs be considered equal to GAI or worse? You can say buy the card, not the holder, but I think we can agree that it doesn't happen consistently.

[Leon]

I would love to send a T206 to BGS just to see the confusion on the graders face

Beckett Vintage Grading would grade a T206 and they probably know what one is.

As for the debate about SGC vs PSA. If it is a registry card then PSA has the dominance. If it isn't then not so much.

[AddieJoss]

I used to be an SGC guy, but 2 years ago I pointed out on thier POP reports they have cards errors and sets mixed together and they didn't care to correct. It is impossible to sort many of their sets on the POP report as well. Then....I submitted 2 cards for autograph authentication, both of which I got signed personally and they came back and wouldn't authenticate. Thier lack of ability to authenticate autographs also hurts the brand in my eyes. Also, given they are so much smaller of a company, they are one or two guys away from not being able to continue the business. I do not see a long-term succession plan for those folks who are grading.
In conclusion, I still buy some SGC cards but I'll send my raw cards to PSA as I've lost some confidence in SGC and I would urge no one to use or buy cards from their autograph authentication service.

Cory Weiser

[Dpeck100]

One of the primary issues that is driving the spread is market share. Collectors Universe is obviously a publicly traded company and has to report various metrics and one of those is market share.

Last year in one of their quarterly reports they indicated that they have 90% of the new card submission market. SGC has 1 or 2 points of market share for all cards being graded currently.

Take position bias out of the discussion and if you are in an industry where another competitor is this much larger you aren't even considered relevant.

I have used SGC once and their customer service was great and I was pleased with the grading accuracy and presentation in the holder. That said I have no illusions that those cards will ever sell for what they would in comparable grades in a PSA holder.

PSA is the 800 pound gorilla at this point and the values have followed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

One of the primary issues that is driving the spread is market share. Collectors Universe is obviously a publicly traded company and has to report various metrics and one of those is market share.

Last year in one of their quarterly reports they indicated that they have 90% of the new card submission market. SGC has 1 or 2 points of market share for all cards being graded currently.

Take position bias out of the discussion and if you are in an industry where another competitor is this much larger you aren't even considered relevant.

I have used SGC once and their customer service was great and I was pleased with the grading accuracy and presentation in the holder. That said I have no illusions that those cards will ever sell for what they would in comparable grades in a PSA holder.

PSA is the 800 pound gorilla at this point and the values have followed.

right when I first came on net54...it was real hard to reach deals on sgc cards when I didn't agree to pay the same price as psa cards of the same level.....the market share on net54 is like 90% of SGC..at least that's what it feels like on BST on the big cards.....but in the outside world PSA dominates

[2dueces]

The registry is a powerful drug.

[e107collector]

Just to be clear, I never had any of my cards graded by PSA, but I am seriously beginning to think about crossing them over to their slabs, if I do decide to sell them in the future.

If I am reading their website correctly, if I have a card valued at $10,000+, I have to choose the same day service of $500 per card?? That seems absurd. Do I have this correct? I can't use the 5 day service of $35.00 a card?

Thanks,
Tony

[glchen]

Just to be clear, I never had any of my cards graded by PSA, but I am seriously beginning to think about crossing them over to their slabs, if I do decide to sell them in the future.

If I am reading their website correctly, if I have a card valued at $10,000+, I have to choose the same day service of $500 per card?? That seems absurd. Do I have this correct? I can't use the 5 day service of $35.00 a card?

Thanks,
Tony

Yes, you would use the $500 fee. You could choose the $35 fee, but if PSA loses or damages your card, they could use the declared value that you stated as the basis for compensating you. Therefore, you need to choose a value that you could stomach.

If the card is already in an SGC slab and it's a 10K+ card, I really don't know if I would bother the crossover. If the card does not cross at the grade you want it, you would still be out the $500 fee and the card would still be in the existing slab.

[sbfinley]

Edited... I hate typing on phones

[Orioles1954]

SGC has gone stagnant. Their set registry is non-existent, the pop reports are atrocious and the holders have obvious flaws. Any market share they had is going out the window. Speaking as a collector, I used to be exclusively SGC, but even their turn around times have slipped. Never thought I would go PSA, but I have....and am realizing more money because of it.

James Feagin

[bxb]

I'm more or less a PSA registry addict, so I only buy PSA cards. When I get a catalog, I skip the SGC cards.

The one exception would be if it's an SGC card that I can't find in a PSA holder. Then if I win it I cross it over to PSA.

Here is a link to one of my HOF sets:

http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=18882

[cincyredlegs]

I am confused with this comment:

"SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector"

Shouldn't it say "it's scary if you are an "investor"?

I personally am a collector, first and foremost. I am not interested in the registry game nor whether my collection is going to triple in price in the next 5 years. Therefore, I am more than happy to buy a nicely centered, crease free SGC 40 T206 at a fraction of the price of a PSA 4. Just means I can finish my set faster.

Mark

[1952boyntoncollector]

I am confused with this comment:

"SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector"

Shouldn't it say "it's scary if you are an "investor"?

I personally am a collector, first and foremost. I am not interested in the registry game nor whether my collection is going to triple in price in the next 5 years. Therefore, I am more than happy to buy a nicely centered, crease free SGC 40 T206 at a fraction of the price of a PSA 4. Just means I can finish my set faster.

Mark


I agree...for a collector SGCs are terrific if not worried about re-sale....

[Exhibitman]

If you are investing wouldn't the smart thing be to buy SGC cards at 1-2 grade below PSA prices then cross them over?

[yanks4]

I still am a SGC guy because of the flips, and service and the arrogance of PSA over the years,.... but I to am wondering why they refuse to market themselves better .....I think the registry is ugly and not a real improvement as was their first new flip....they seriously need a sharp graphic guy or gal and someone that's knows how to market themselves ..I still think there is a heck of an opportunity for someone who is capitalized to partner or purchase the brand....I hope it happens ...the sooner the better....

[bnorth]

I agree...for a collector SGCs are terrific if not worried about re-sale....

Why are SGC cards losing value? Sale price really means nothing if you do not account for purchase price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I still am a SGC guy because of the flips, and service and the arrogance of PSA over the years,.... but I to am wondering why they refuse to market themselves better .....I think the registry is ugly and not a real improvement as was their first new flip....they seriously need a sharp graphic guy or gal and someone that's knows how to market themselves ..I still think there is a heck of an opportunity for someone who is capitalized to partner or purchase the brand....I hope it happens ...the sooner the better....

Perhaps they are content with the business as it is.

[Jay Wolt]

Will SGC's upcoming move from Jersey to Fla be a good thing, bad thing or no big deal?

[vintagebb2014]

As a long time collector that has used SGC exclusively for grading pre-war, their turnaround times have been very disappointing lately and it seems that their consistency has slipped. What other business can you think of that you pay for a 10 day turn around that takes 20+ days? It appears that they may need a shake up at SGC before they loose a lot of loyal customers. I renewed my PSA membership this week as I plan to slowly begin the process of crossing over to PSA just for the reason that Kevin brought up. I am a true collector first and foremost; however, I would like the greatest return once I choose to sell off my collection.

[EvilKing00]

I never sell, but i can say i like the look of the sgc holder better, as well think its more of a secure holder than psa.

I do buy, t205's and ruths graded by sgc, psa, bvg and raw. I always buy the card not the holder.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

In economic marketplaces you need at least two healthy companies to spur competition in creating innovation as well as consumer focused pricing and service. I'm a PSA supporter but hope that SGC and BVG can get their acts together. No one wants a TPG monopoly. Investing in technology (websites that are mobile responsive and look like this decade a good start) and marketing is much needed.

In my experience over the last 24 months, I've cracked 50+ cards out of SGC holders and received an average of 1 grade lower per PSA grading standards. (after the first couple times sending the cards in the holders for crossover and receiving uniformly lower grades, I always break them out first and surprisingly get the same results).

[Peter_Spaeth]

In economic marketplaces you need at least two healthy companies to spur competition in creating innovation as well as consumer focused pricing and service. I'm a PSA supporter but hope that SGC and BVG can get their acts together. No one wants a TPG monopoly. Investing in technology (websites that are mobile responsive and look like this decade a good start) and marketing is much needed.

In my experience over the last 24 months, I've cracked 50+ cards out of SGC holders and received an average of 1 grade lower per PSA grading standards. (after the first couple times sending the cards in the holders for crossover and receiving uniformly lower grades, I always break them out first and surprisingly get the same results).

As I was saying about PSA being stricter these days...

[Orioles1954]

Will SGC's upcoming move from Jersey to Fla be a good thing, bad thing or no big deal?

SGC is moving to Florida?

[glchen]

I also tend to send more of my submissions to PSA, but I still send some to both SGC and Beckett every year, and like AJ, I would like to see a competitive market rather than a monopoly. Frankly, I think since SGC is a smaller company and needs to conserve their capital, I think they should just stick with their bread and butter which is consistent and strong grading, great customer service and delivering cards within their expected turnaround times. They are already foraying into autograph authentication, so let them digest and perfect that before moving onto techy gizmos and the like. I also think that the registry wars are already over. PSA has won that battle. So instead of trying to outdo PSA there, I would just try to have a simple registry that acts more like a checklist that collectors can use rather than battle on points. As others have suggested, allow cards from other TPG's or even raw cards. If they wanted to splurge on their registry, I would have them partner with a company like VCP, so they could integrate current market values into the cards listed on the registry to that collectors could get a rough idea on how much their collection is worth. I know people don't like to say it's investing, but still if people could see their cards like an investment portfolio, it might be a nice touch.

[Jay Wolt]

SGC is moving to Florida?
That's what I heard awhile ago.
The owner, Dave Forman lives in Fla so it makes sense for his company to be there too.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Why are SGC cards losing value? Sale price really means nothing if you do not account for purchase price.

true purchase price counts..if both cards are a '3' and the sgc is bought for 100 and the psa is bought for 200....and they sell for the same amounts...than neither card lost value

i think the discussion is when you look at sales prices for a '3'...the PSAs sell for more than the SGCs ..

whats the issue is i think people that have kept cars for a number of years back when the 3's were being sold at the same price....now are attempting to sell the card and they are seeing that the 3s from the SGC don't sell in general as much as the 3's for PSA....

CMIZE that started the thread wasn't talking about new purchases..he is concerned about purchases he made long ago and how his SGC cards appear to have lost their value from when he bought it.....so that's what i believe people mean about PSA keeping their value..

if you look at B/S/T you will see sellers wanting the same money for their SGC as the PSA counterpart and its just not happening more and more...they have to sell them for less........but yes..now that it does appears that SGCS are being bought for less..they aren't losing value as they may of 4 years ago when they were being bought for the same as their counterparts....

[1952boyntoncollector]

In economic marketplaces you need at least two healthy companies to spur competition in creating innovation as well as consumer focused pricing and service. I'm a PSA supporter but hope that SGC and BVG can get their acts together. No one wants a TPG monopoly. Investing in technology (websites that are mobile responsive and look like this decade a good start) and marketing is much needed.

In my experience over the last 24 months, I've cracked 50+ cards out of SGC holders and received an average of 1 grade lower per PSA grading standards. (after the first couple times sending the cards in the holders for crossover and receiving uniformly lower grades, I always break them out first and surprisingly get the same results).

right, i will buy an SGC card considering it will crossover 1 grade lower.....yet dealers to this day and i suspect many at the National ..will get mad if you make an offer on an SGC 3 card based on VCP of a PSA 2 ..

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's what I heard awhile ago.
The owner, Dave Forman lives in Fla so it makes sense for his company to be there too.

Certainly more convenient for when he needs to go into the office.:eek:

[frankbmd]

Certainly more convenient for when he needs to go into the office.:eek:

Common sense solutions to pedestrian problems. ;)

[RGold]

For you songwriters, pedestrian rhymes with equestrian. :D:D:D

[trdcrdkid]

I am confused with this comment:

"SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector"

Shouldn't it say "it's scary if you are an "investor"?

I personally am a collector, first and foremost. I am not interested in the registry game nor whether my collection is going to triple in price in the next 5 years. Therefore, I am more than happy to buy a nicely centered, crease free SGC 40 T206 at a fraction of the price of a PSA 4. Just means I can finish my set faster.

I saw this thread yesterday and had the same reaction. The original post was written from the perspective of somebody who is selling cards, or buying them with the intention of selling them (i.e. an investor). From the perspective of a pure collector, it seems like it would be a good thing if SGC-graded cards are selling for less -- it means that there are more bargains to be had.

On the spectrum from pure collector (buying/trading for cards only for enjoyment, with no thought whatsoever to potential resale value) to pure investor (only concerned with resale value, treating cards as commodities), I am pretty far towards the "pure collector" side. I've always been a very price-conscious collector, looking for bargains and trying to get the most bang for my buck; that's why I tend to collect cards that wouldn't necessarily get a high technical grade, but which have decent eye appeal. I seldom spend more than $100 for a card, and I don't think I've ever spent more than $200.

The vast majority of my N/T/E card collection is raw, partly because many of my cards were bought years ago before TPGs were a significant factor, but also because raw cards are nearly always cheaper than graded ones, so it's much easier to find good deals. I've never sent a card to a TPG to be graded, and honestly wouldn't know how to go about it. Of the relatively few slabbed cards in my collection (all obtained either on the B/S/T section of this board or on eBay, for what I considered very good prices), most are in SGC holders. That provides some anecdotal support for the OP's observation about SGC-graded cards selling for less than PSA-graded ones, but it could also have something to do with the fact that many of them are Old Judges, and as Joe G. (I think) has pointed out, SGC grades more Old Judges than PSA does, and that trend has been accelerating in recent years.

All that being said, it's not the case that I pay no attention at all to potential resale value. All else being equal, I'd prefer to own cards that will hold their value in the future, which is why I generally try to get the nicest-condition, nicest-looking card that my limited budget will allow. But as with my investments in mutual funds, I have a very long-term time horizon, so any resale value I'm thinking of is many years in the future, probably decades. I figure if and when it ever comes time for me or my descendents to sell my (raw) cards, they can always be sent to a grading company if it would enhance their market value, as it probably would. But that's so far in the future that I'm not going to worry now about which grading company would be best to send my cards to, because so many things could change by then.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Are you guys still talking purely T206's? I mean I've noticed cards in SGC holders tend to sell for a bit less than their PSA counterparts but I have not noticed a full grade difference, which again is why I'm asking if you are talking exclusively T206's (which I own a few of but don't collect exclusively)?

[GregMitch34]

As for non-T206s, I will say again there is a vast gap in value for Cracker Jack 1914s and 1915s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think it's fair to say that there is, in general, a reasonable gap for higher grade 1950s cards, and I would assume 1960s as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLAR-BEAR-T206-TY-COBB-BAT-OFF-SHOULDER-SGC-GRADED-60-EX-5-/361197380382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54190aa31e

[packs]

SGC cases keep my mostly mid-grade / collector grade cards protected and they look great in them. I couldn't care less about how much a theoretical card graded an 8 by two different companies sells for. Nor am I frightened.

[GregMitch34]

Peter, you are wrong on that--there were some really funky PSA 5s in the big t206 auction this weekend from Small Traditions. More like "3" corners.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most of my 5s and the ones I have seen look much more like this, if not better.

[Gobucsmagic74]

SGC cases keep my mostly mid-grade / collector grade cards protected and they look great in them. I couldn't care less about how much a theoretical card graded an 8 by two different companies sells for. Nor am I frightened.

Ha, true. I guess I needn't worry either as most of my cards are in that same collector grade (4-6) range and display far better in the SGC cases in my opinion.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLAR-BEAR-T206-TY-COBB-BAT-OFF-SHOULDER-SGC-GRADED-60-EX-5-/361197380382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54190aa31e

I agree, that's some pretty heavy corner wear. Looks like a 4.

[Joshchisox08]

Piggy backing on what I said earlier about it being a "self fulfilling prophecy" I really do think it is a heard mentality. People think PSA is better cause that's what other people are telling them. Its almost like certain auctions that take place and their stuff sells for more just because they are selling it. Have you ever noticed when PWCC has an auction on EBAY their cards sell for about 30%or more than they would if I were selling them. I looked at that previous auction that closed recently and compared it to almost identically graded cards selling at the same time by individual buyers and they were going for way more. Tolstoi PSA 3's by an individual selling for in the $80s PWCC going for $110-120. In short its a reputation that has no real gold backing the currency so to speak. People just think its better.

If an industry wide rumor started next week that SGC was better within a month you would see the pricing reverse.

Ryan you really hit the nail on the head with this !!!

[steve B]

I've seen a few like that recently. Like maybe the last 6 months to a year.
And yes, I don't think they should be 5s

On the other hand it's making me think of resubmitting my 5s and 4s.

Steve B

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLAR-BEAR-T206-TY-COBB-BAT-OFF-SHOULDER-SGC-GRADED-60-EX-5-/361197380382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54190aa31e

[steve B]

SGC

The revamped registry isn't bad. But it's not a whole lot better than the old one.
Relevant? That's sort of silly. If you only collect PSA the SGC registry is just as irrelevant to you as the PSA registry is to me. Relevance is entirely subjective.

The changed then rechanged flip being a complaint is also amusing. They made a change customers didn't like and listened to their customers. I'm not seeing a problem other than a lack of market research that could have saved them some effort.

PSA

I haven't seen one, but from all I hear the new case is pretty good. Unless you use PSAs own storage boxes, then it's not so good. But a more tamper resistant case isn't a bad thing.

New flip?!?!? I didn't notice. really new? or just tweaks to the same design they've had since the start?

HEH! SGC registry had photos when I did my first submission- I forget when, maybe 2010? So much for innovation.

App? Haven't followed that. I'm betting I can't get it for my phone. It's apple/android only right? (Like every D*** app! Can I sue for discrimination? ) Just kidding, I know I probably can't.

SGC does have stuff they could do better. All companies do. I'd use PSA if they didn't have a silly cover charge. Pay me so you get the right to pay me ......for me that's pretty much a non starter.

Steve B

I used to send 90% of my submissions to SGC, I now send 90% to PSA.

Outside of turnaround time PSA beats SGC up and down the block in everything else.

In the past 3 years the following actions have taken place by the companies.

SGC:
Revamped registry site, minimal improvement. Still irrelevant compared to PSA.
Changed flip and rechanged after customers voiced displeasure.

PSA:
New case which is harder to tamper with.
New Flip.
Upgraded Registry to allow for photo albums.
Released app that allows you to scan or input the registration number.

To me, it seems like either SGC isn't trying, doesn't want to improve , or is inept at marketing.

Brent Ingr@m

[Joshchisox08]

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLAR-BEAR-T206-TY-COBB-BAT-OFF-SHOULDER-SGC-GRADED-60-EX-5-/361197380382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54190aa31e

It could very easily have something to do with it being a Polar Bear. I'm sure that both PSA and SGC take into account for Polar Bears being way harder to get in great shape.

[ullmandds]

It could very easily have something to do with it being a Polar Bear. I'm sure that both PSA and SGC take into account for Polar Bears being way harder to get in great shape.

if this is occurring...this is a big problem.

[Joshchisox08]

if this is occurring...this is a big problem.

I wouldn't doubt it in the slightest. I feel like Polar Bears have always gotten a little bit of leeway.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've seen a few like that recently. Like maybe the last 6 months to a year.
And yes, I don't think they should be 5s

On the other hand it's making me think of resubmitting my 5s and 4s.

Steve B

I strongly suspect that, for both grading services, high volume submitters tend to get better grades.

[4815162342]

... I'd use PSA if they didn't have a silly cover charge. Pay me so you get the right to pay me ......for me that's pretty much a non starter.

Steve B

PSA hasn't required a membership to submit cards for grading in a long time. Yet, about once every six months or so, someone complains that they do. ;)

[steve B]

I strongly suspect that, for both grading services, high volume submitters tend to get better grades.

I wouldn't rule it out, but as a very low volume submitter I've received a few grades I thought were low, and a few that were at least mildly generous. Most have been accurate including a couple I thought were low that I asked about in person and the guy I asked very quickly found the small flaws I'd missed.

To some extent I think it may come down to experience If I submit say 1000 cards a month and take time to actually look at which ones didn't do as well as I'd thought I would eventually get better at removing those.

And from the opposite end, if a submitter has sent in say 750 cards that are certain 8s and 200 7s and 50 that Might be 8s or maybe 9s .......Maybe track record carries some weight. It shouldn't, but with nearly all people it will. Think of it like the veteran batter with a rep for not going after bad pitches. He'll get the benefit of a smaller strike zone. The same with a pitcher known for great control. He might get strikes on pitches off the plate.

I'd imagine there's similar stuff in all fields, in law are the guys who nearly always pick profitable winning cases given more leeway in which ones they decide to take?
I know if I say a bicycle thing can be fixed hardly anyone even questions it anymore. They may not want to pay the price, but the know it can be fixed.

Steve B

[ullmandds]

I strongly suspect that, for both grading services, high volume submitters tend to get better grades.

For Sure!

[chipperhank44]

Piggy backing on what I said earlier about it being a "self fulfilling prophecy" I really do think it is a heard mentality. People think PSA is better cause that's what other people are telling them.........In short its a reputation that has no real gold backing the currency so to speak. People just think its better.

If an industry wide rumor started next week that SGC was better within a month you would see the pricing reverse.

The above truth can be directly applied to the comment below

I would love to send a T206 to BGS just to see the confusion on the graders face

[LKeeler]

I wouldn't doubt it in the slightest. I feel like Polar Bears have always gotten a little bit of leeway.

I've done cross overs on two dozen SGC 60 graded Polar Bears over to PSA and have only had three of them come back PSA 5. One came back PSA 4.5, some were 4s, one a 3.5, and four as trimmed (a separate topic for another day!). Just my two cent observation on the topic of Polar Bears. SGC graded Polar Bears like the link to the Cobb seem to be extremely poor candidates for a flip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've done cross overs on two dozen SGC 60 graded Polar Bears over to PSA and have only had three of them come back PSA 5. One came back PSA 4.5, some were 4s, one a 3.5, and four as trimmed (a separate topic for another day!). Just my two cent observation on the topic of Polar Bears. SGC graded Polar Bears like the link to the Cobb seem to be extremely poor candidates for a flip.

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, does it?

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

were those true cross overs or did you crack them first?

[ValKehl]

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLAR-BEAR-T206-TY-COBB-BAT-OFF-SHOULDER-SGC-GRADED-60-EX-5-/361197380382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54190aa31e

Peter, you may be correct. However, give this card sharper corners plus a crease, and it gets a "5" every day from PSA, IMHO.
Val

[LKeeler]

were those true cross overs or did you crack them first?

Half and half. After the trims came back I have started true cross overs, and no more cracking on Polar Bears.

[frankbmd]

I've done cross overs on two dozen SGC 60 graded Polar Bears over to PSA and have only had three of them come back PSA 5. One came back PSA 4.5, some were 4s, one a 3.5, and four as trimmed (a separate topic for another day!). Just my two cent observation on the topic of Polar Bears. SGC graded Polar Bears like the link to the Cobb seem to be extremely poor candidates for a flip.


Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIXdTa1VGx4AExEsnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByYX I3cnIwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDNA--?p=How+To+Flip+a+Polar+Bear&vid=86b39dabb7cdf94a26d2ab49c13bab32&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN.u lZAM7lNqm0xJ8dZcxm%252b%252fQ%26pid%3D15.1%26h%3D2 25%26w%3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Ds bH2V48GL4w&tit=Polar+bear+doing+backflips+in+the+water&c=3&h=225&w=300&l=35&sigr=11bp2akie&sigt=117cvrrbv&sigi=12o30icgu&age=1316016481&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

[Joshchisox08]

Half and half. After the trims came back I have started true cross overs, and no more cracking on Polar Bears.

So Luke what do you have available for trims ???:D:D:D

[clydepepper]

Most of my 5s and the ones I have seen look much more like this, if not better.

Peter - Here is my most recent purchase for comparison to yours:

I think mine looks a bit better, though I'm not sure it would be a 6 (although the back is very nice! )

I think the dark background of the SGC case also has an influence.

I got mine for the PSA SMR price (which I use as a baseline when researching how much I should pay - I also sometimes get emotional and buy the card anyway lol )

198165

198166

[Steve_NY]

What scares me more than anything else is that a collector will pay $1,000s of dollars for a perfect 10 common card worth probably about $5 - $10 just because it is graded by a human being as a perfect 10.

But don't get me wrong; grading has made me a lot of money, not because I graded cards, but because I have never graded cards. Dealers and collectors continue to buy my ungraded cards and always say, "why don't you have them graded yourself?"

Maybe I am a leftover from another generation, but if and when this "trend" has its peak, I will still be there (assuming I live that long) to keep all of my customers happy.

But if you still want to buy ungraded cards and get them graded on your own, see me at this year's National at booth 1110P, 6 booths in the door.

By the way, I have also enjoyed the past several months of posts. I am busy for most of the year on a huge project for the #1 business publication in the world, but when I get free, your knowledge and ability to share those details freely is unsurpassed. Thank you all!!! Stop by and say hello.

Steve Sabow DynamicTwo@aol.com

[LKeeler]

[QUOTE=frankbmd;1433265]Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

Haha, Frank. That is awesome.

[clydepepper]

[QUOTE=frankbmd;1433265]Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

Haha. Awesome.

A polar bear once asked me for a Coca-Cola but I flipped him off.

Does that count?
.
.

[The Nasty Nati]

I agree with everything you said.....plus I wonder how market share is with the 25-45 year olds..who will be defining the buying market the next 20 years..i assuming psa is getting a bigger market share ...

I'm 29 and I can say no joke probably 90% of collectors in my age group collect either Beckett or PSA graded cards. You could even argue many have never heard of SGC. When you're getting back into collecting you generally like to collect cards you always wanted as a kid. Most of those cards are graded in PSA as my age group idolized stars from the 80s (if you're 30-45 years old probably 1970s players). From there you build loyalty to PSA especially because of the registry. Registry is so key. For teens they are collecting the modern players, and because modern card collecting is all about autograph cards, Beckett is very popular with teens today. SGC is totally nonexistent to them.

Also, a popular thing to do is to show your PSA submission mail returns on YouTube. You almost never see SGC videos online. People on this forum should post more SGC submission return videos to gain more interest in SGC for the younger crowd...it's all about social media these days.

Personally I collect SGC graded cards as I love the look of them with the T206s and for the simple fact that they are cheaper to submit and buy. That being said if I had to do it over again I would probably go with PSA as the registry is much stronger and like others have said, sell for more.

[ullmandds]

PSA's advantage is in the registry...and the marketing...which create a "perception" as has been stated. They most certainly do NOT offer a superior product to the other TPG'ers.

[packs]

In all honesty, if this is seriously a problem for someone, it's a problem you've created yourself by playing this game in the first place. Unless people start ponying up an extra few hundo for a PSA 1 or SGC 40, this is something that will never affect me.

[ullmandds]

In all honesty, if this is seriously a problem for someone, it's a problem you've created yourself by playing this game in the first place. Unless people start ponying up an extra few hundo for a PSA 1 or SGC 40, this is something that will never affect me.

+1 for me too!

[the 'stache]

I'm still trying to get past the "Clayton Kershaw is overhyped" comment, myself.

[ls7plus]

I'm still trying to get past the "Clayton Kershaw is overhyped" comment, myself.

I think that post was limited to Kershaw's far less than stellar playoff performance to date, Bill.

Highest regards,

Larry

[the 'stache]

I think that post was limited to Kershaw's far less than stellar playoff performance to date, Bill.

Highest regards,

Larry

Hi Larry,

I thought about that, but the comparison was made that Kershaw was over-hyped, while Sale just dominates. Sale has never even pitched in the post season, so that would be an odd comparison, to me. Kershaw has been a very mixed bag in post season baseball, absolutely. There have been a few times he was quite good. But taken as a whole, he's been awful.

But to suggest that Kershaw is over-hyped because he plays in Los Angeles, while Sale somehow flies under the radar because he plays in Chicago, is silly, imho. Some of the most hyped athletes in American sports history-Michael Jordan, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, to name a few, have played their entire careers in Chicago (well, Jordan played two in Washington after being retired three years). That's not to question their greatness (or that of Chris Sale), but Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards in four years (and was runner-up the other). He's been simply spectacular.

Since 1960, there have been 634 pitchers to throw 1,000 or more innings. Only Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm (relievers) and Pedro Martinez have a higher ERA + in that time than Kershaw's 150. And since the start of the 2011 season, nearly five full seasons, his ERA + has been 167. That includes a record of 79-32 (.718 win pct), a 2.18 ERA, 1,122 Ks in 1,026.1 IP. His WHIP is a silly 0.951. He's led the National League in ERA and WHIP each of the last four years.

That's not hype, it's greatness. That 167 ERA + matches identically the same figure Sandy Koufax had in his last five seasons.

[frankbmd]

Hi Larry,

I thought about that, but the comparison was made that Kershaw was over-hyped, while Sale just dominates. Sale has never even pitched in the post season, so that would be an odd comparison, to me. Kershaw has been a very mixed bag in post season baseball, absolutely. There have been a few times he was quite good. But taken as a whole, he's been awful.

But to suggest that Kershaw is over-hyped because he plays in Los Angeles, while Sale somehow flies under the radar because he plays in Chicago, is silly, imho. Some of the most hyped athletes in American sports history-Michael Jordan, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, to name a few, have played their entire careers in Chicago (well, Jordan played two in Washington after being retired three years). That's not to question their greatness (or that of Chris Sale), but Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards in four years (and was runner-up the other). He's been simply spectacular.

Since 1960, there have been 634 pitchers to throw 1,000 or more innings. Only Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm (relievers) and Pedro Martinez have a higher ERA + in that time than Kershaw's 150. And since the start of the 2011 season, nearly five full seasons, his ERA + has been 167. That includes a record of 79-32 (.718 win pct), a 2.18 ERA, 1,122 Ks in 1,026.1 IP. His WHIP is a silly 0.951. He's led the National League in ERA and WHIP each of the last four years.

That's not hype, it's greatness. That 167 ERA + matches identically the same figure Sandy Koufax had in his last five seasons.

And they both begin with K

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill all true, but when you get shelled in the playoffs it undercuts a lot of that in people's minds. Look at pre-roid confession ARod, whose legacy was already banged up from not performing in the post-season. Or, for much of his career, Bonds.

[RGold]

Imdee. :D:D:D

[clydepepper]

And they both begin with K

I'm just really enjoying the fact that all three (Koufax, Kershaw, & Sale) are left-handed!!
.
.

[CMIZ5290]

Why are SGC cards losing value? Sale price really means nothing if you do not account for purchase price.

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

[ullmandds]

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

Kevin you should've been a lawyer!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin you should've been a lawyer!

I guess I should have said, looks narrow to me, however, despite the grade..

[Sophiedog]

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

I agree 100%
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Piedmont-Cigarettes-T206-ED-WALSH-GRADED-SGC-84-7-A-BEAUTY-/131553570962?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1ea1343092&nma=true&si=5O5dUgcqeNZx9fdr8uN7ylgSB5s%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Paul S]

I'm just really enjoying the fact that all three (Koufax, Kershaw, & Sale) are left-handed!!.

it's scary, very scary:eek:

[the 'stache]

I agree 100%
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Piedmont-Cigarettes-T206-ED-WALSH-GRADED-SGC-84-7-A-BEAUTY-/131553570962?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1ea1343092&nma=true&si=5O5dUgcqeNZx9fdr8uN7ylgSB5s%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

That's one of my favorite cards in the set, and a beautiful example.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!

Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.

still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

[steve B]

I agree 100%
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Piedmont-Cigarettes-T206-ED-WALSH-GRADED-SGC-84-7-A-BEAUTY-/131553570962?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1ea1343092&nma=true&si=5O5dUgcqeNZx9fdr8uN7ylgSB5s%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

With the staining on the back from scrapbook glue I'd say that's a weak 7. A nice card, but I don't think it should get a 7. (Of course, if it was PSA it would be 7ST )

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.

[darwinbulldog]

Punishing relievers for only pitching 1200 innings is like punishing pitchers for only playing 500 games.

[steve B]

PSA hasn't required a membership to submit cards for grading in a long time. Yet, about once every six months or so, someone complains that they do. ;)

Interesting.

They sure do hide that fact. Not a surprise since the club membership must be a good money maker.

I was just looking at the site, and it's a bit hard to find stuff. Kinda cluttered. Finally found the specials and they're not all that great this month. Nice price, but 25 card minimum and they need to be under $100 value . I think I've maybe done 30 -40 cards over several years. So while I can send in, it would be at the $17 rate which is a lot more than the $10 regular fee at SGC (whose specials this month are more than PSAs specials but with more value allowed and no minimum quantity. )

If I had a loads of modernish cards where the price difference would be worth it, I might join.
But for what I do SGC makes it really easy.

Steve B

[rats60]

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

I would be more concerned with the looks narrow than the price falling between a psa 7 and 6, which is where I would expect it to sell. I think more people are buying cards and not holders. I pass on cards in the grade I want all the time because I don't like the card.

[glchen]

Interesting.

They sure do hide that fact. Not a surprise since the club membership must be a good money maker.

I was just looking at the site, and it's a bit hard to find stuff. Kinda cluttered. Finally found the specials and they're not all that great this month. Nice price, but 25 card minimum and they need to be under $100 value . I think I've maybe done 30 -40 cards over several years. So while I can send in, it would be at the $17 rate which is a lot more than the $10 regular fee at SGC (whose specials this month are more than PSAs specials but with more value allowed and no minimum quantity. )

If I had a loads of modernish cards where the price difference would be worth it, I might join.
But for what I do SGC makes it really easy.

Steve B

That's right. You don't need a PSA membership to submit to PSA. However, if you want to use their specials, then you do need the membership. I've always found the membership worthwhile because for the Platinum membership, it averages out to ~$17 per card which is about the same for that declared value when there is a special on it. And you also receive a year's subscription to the SMR magazine and the free gift. The current free gift is just a t-shirt, which isn't anything special, but in the past, I've gotten the Cracker Jack and T206 books, which are nice coffee table items.

I do admit this month's SGC $10 special for cards under $500 is especially good. However, PSA's special for cards under $100 are pretty decent also. It's pretty rare for the specials to break $6 these days, and 25 cards minimum isn't bad. (In comparison, this month's Beckett special is $7 per card, and you need to submit 100 cards minimum. Of course, Beckett does not have a declared value maximum for their specials. That's still a lot of cards, however.)

I thought that the ST qualifier for PSA was only for wax stains and not for other types of stains. I could be wrong, however.

[e107collector]

Does anyone know that if I joined the PSA collector's club, am I able to use my (6) free grading vouchers all for crossover reviews? Each of the cards are in the less than $499 declared value category.

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony

[glchen]

Does anyone know that if I joined the PSA collector's club, am I able to use my (6) free grading vouchers all for crossover reviews? Each of the cards are in the less than $499 declared value category.

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony

Yes, you can. I believe the only caveat is that they must all be crossovers, however. That is, you can't put a PSA card in this submission for a review also along with SGC, Beckett cards. They *may* also need to be the same size, e.g., no mixing of postcard sized cards with standard size ones. However, I think they are somewhat lenient here when using the voucher.

[e107collector]

Yes, you can. I believe the only caveat is that they must all be crossovers, however. That is, you can't put a PSA card in this submission for a review also along with SGC, Beckett cards. They *may* also need to be the same size, e.g., no mixing of postcard sized cards with standard size ones. However, I think they are somewhat lenient here when using the voucher.

Gary,

Thanks for the info and quick response. I'll post the results when I get my order back. They are in BGS and SGC slabs currently.

Tony

[vintagetoppsguy]

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6). And there appears to be some edge wear on the top border as well, although it could just be my eyes. If it's edge wear, then that knocks it down to a 60 (5). IMO, the seller made out like a bandit on this card. No way it's worth $1026. The buyer obviously bought the holder and not the card.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA0NFg2MzQ=/z/DRQAAOSwDNdVnvfI/$_57.JPG

[ullmandds]

I think many of the issues being discussed here can be avoided if one buys the card and not the holder...if this walsh is in fact narrow...this is likely why the price is/was low.

If one compares quality graded cards(cards that are especially nice for the grade)...I think the disparity will be much narrower...if at all.

[tbob]

not sure about post-war, but modern stuff they're handing out GEM MINT 10s left and right. imo it's great for prewar collectors if the sgc/psa value gap is that big, you get more bang for the bucks with sgc cards.

+1

[tbob]

I buy PSA and BVG graded cards but I prefer SGC graded cards. I agree with Quan, you can get a better card in an SGC holder for the same price or even less than one in a PSA holder. In the pre-war cards I have often bought SGC 60s and some times 70s for less than PSA 4s. It's all in the eye appeal for me, for many others it is in the holder. I do agree that PSAs sell for more in post-war and even often in pre-war but if you can find a better looking card in a higher SGC holder, it's a no-brainer for me because I am a collector first and an investor second. Many are not and more power to them....

[glchen]

Gary,

Thanks for the info and quick response. I'll post the results when I get my order back. They are in BGS and SGC slabs currently.

Tony

Tony, if you are going to National, you might want to wait until then to sign up for the PSA membership and voucher albeit you probably need to wait in a long line. This year, it looks like you can exchange your voucher for onsite grading although it's at a reduced rate. Link (http://www.psacard.com/National). In the past, they've also given away some freebies that you could sell on ebay and make part of your membership fee back. Unfortunately, it looks like this year, there is only a poster.

[darwinbulldog]

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6). And there appears to be some edge wear on the top border as well, although it could just be my eyes. If it's edge wear, then that knocks it down to a 60 (5). IMO, the seller made out like a bandit on this card. No way it's worth $1026. The buyer obviously bought the holder and not the card.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA0NFg2MzQ=/z/DRQAAOSwDNdVnvfI/$_57.JPG

And paper loss above the "ME" in "AMER."?

[brewing]

Does anyone know that if I joined the PSA collector's club, am I able to use my (6) free grading vouchers all for crossover reviews? Each of the cards are in the less than $499 declared value category.



Any info is appreciated.



Thanks,



Tony


You can break it up between crossovers and raw subs. I've done it and I'm doing it again. The caveat is you have to pay shipping for 2 separate orders. So account for it.

[trdcrdkid]

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6).

The upper left corner doesn't look so hot either.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.

true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......

basically I think Kershaw can do what M. Rivera did or much much closer than M. Rivera can do what Kershaw did..

I would say adam waighnright is one of the better SPs that was a reliever..but was only a reliever for a short time.... M. Rivera was a starting pitcher for a short time and was horrible...

[Peter_Spaeth]

true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......
Yes but so what. That's like saying more shortstops become third basemen than vice versa, or that more outfielders become first basemen than vice versa. Since a team needs both, I am not sure what the point is?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yes but so what. That's like saying more shortstops become third basemen than vice versa, or that more outfielders become first basemen than vice versa. Since a team needs both, I am not sure what the point is?

right teams need a good catcher who doesn't have to hit too..teams need lots of guys....but they all don't make the HOF

my point is SPs are on a whole different much higher level in the HOF versus closers....unless they can be judged on 1200 innings just like closers are and not 5000 + innings ..do we have to go through this again?

[T206Collector]

I switched from PSA to SGC years ago when I started getting PSA 5s off ebay that had obvious wrinkles or trimming problems. I don't mind an EX card with roundness to the corners, so long as there are no damn creases. I've never been failed by SGC on this front. When I buy a card that I can see centering and corner issues in the scan myself -- I don't need TPG for that -- I want to know, I want to trust, that there are no creases in it. Buy an SGC 60+ and you're much more likely to be right.

But, people want liquidity to their investments and are willing to tolerate the sordid history of the trimmed PSA 8 Wagner to maintain the ability of a quick flip to the next customer/collector. It's like I've said about JSA authenticated items -- it doesn't matter if it's real or not; it only matters what James Spence says. And that's a scary place to be.

If your goal is to kill SGC off, and drive prices up for your PSA cards, then starting this post makes a lot of sense. But beware a single monopoly dictating grades and values. Because then quality will lag, people will get pissed off, liquidity will freeze up, and values will drop. You want healthy competition between two or three responsible TPGs. It's a very good thing for our hobby.

[wonkaticket]

I switched from PSA to SGC years ago when I started getting PSA 5s off ebay that had obvious wrinkles or trimming problems. I don't mind an EX card with roundness to the corners, so long as there are no damn creases. I've never been failed by SGC on this front. When I buy a card that I can see centering and corner issues in the scan myself -- I don't need TPG for that -- I want to know, I want to trust, that there are no creases in it. Buy an SGC 60+ and you're much more likely to be right.

But, people want liquidity to their investments and are willing to tolerate the sordid history of the trimmed PSA 8 Wagner to maintain the ability of a quick flip to the next customer/collector. It's like I've said about JSA authenticated items -- it doesn't matter if it's real or not; it only matters what James Spence says. And that's a scary place to be.

If your goal is to kill SGC off, and drive prices up for your PSA cards, then starting this post makes a lot of sense. But beware a single monopoly dictating grades and values. Because then quality will lag, people will get pissed off, liquidity will freeze up, and values will drop. You want healthy competition between two or three responsible TPGs. It's a very good thing for our hobby.

Well said Paul. Also if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times. If you're buying quality items (in all grades) then you're fine. There will always be a market for quality items regardless of SGC/PSA. If there isn't then the hobby has serious issues and no TPG will be your savior.

With that said SGC does a piss poor job being a good competitor to PSA it should be a Coke vs. Pepsi world. Instead its more like Coke vs. Larry's Soda Company of NJ or FL. When you think small as a small business owner you remain small...one has to think big and push for innovation. This isn't something SGC does. PSA however does a bit better job...in this area.

Cheers,

John

[brewing]

I agree John.

I see so much potential in SGC, but it seems they are content with their market share.

FWIW, I came here from the SGC board and once sang their greatness.
I still search for SGC cards, because I can get them cheaper.

[ricktmd]

While it is clear that PSA cards bring higher $ than SGC cards of the same grade the question is why and does it matter to a collector. I believe the psa registry collectors who will pay more for PSA. This is a simple dynamic. Besides spending the time energy and money trying to cross the cards they often don't cross at the same grade so PSA collectors like myself are willing to pay more for PSA over SGC. One other factor is that PSA is part of a larger company that grades coins stamps etc.. They are a more substantial stable company which makes there cards safer investments as well. PSA is a pain to deal with but I think there grading while sometimes a head scratcher is fairly consistent. SGC is cheaper and easier to deal with that is for sure. In my opinion SGC over grades and grades items like S74 silks terribly. On top of all that the recent fiasco with the Standard Biscuit cards where they graded crudely cut strip cards with a lame standard biscuit stamped back as 84's that went to auction shows they are not trustworthy with authenticity. I have nothing against them but the standard biscuit fakes would never have been graded at PSA. I know SGC is popular and I get why. It just makes more sense from an investment standpoint with pricey vintage cards to collect PSA
Rick Clemens

[nolemmings]

While it is clear that PSA cards bring higher $ than SGC cards of the same grade the question is why and does it matter to a collector. I believe the psa registry collectors who will pay more for PSA. This is a simple dynamic. Besides spending the time energy and money trying to cross the cards they often don't cross at the same grade so PSA collectors like myself are willing to pay more for PSA over SGC.

While I agree with this part of your post, I do not with the rest. The Standard Biscuit fiasco, as you call it, was close enough where it is at least somewhat excusable, IMO. The cards were not "crudely cut" at all; if anything, they were a bit too sharp. The "lame stamped back" was apparently close enough to fool you, as you bought one of the cards.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=201147&highlight=biscuit I don't for a minute have trouble believing they could have passed through PSA as well, as all the companies have had trouble with this set for years. PSA is the company that graded a reprint Ruth rookie with a numeric grade!! Talk about being on alert as to what to look for in one of the most prestigious cards in the hobby and then blowing it.

As for PSA grading coins, they are absolutely horrid at grading PX7 discs, so that that additional area of ""expertise" certainly has not translated.

So the debate can continue on investors vs. collectors etc, and how SGC seems unable or unwilling to expand its brand, but their ability to prove authenticity is at least as strong, and in my view stronger, than PSA.

[e107collector]

I have nothing against them but the standard biscuit fakes would never have been graded at PSA.

I'm pretty sure PSA graded fake Babe Ruth Sporting Life rookies a few years back.

They all make mistakes.

Tony

[ricktmd]

The standard biscuit fiasco was surprising. I bought one of the mistakenly graded W575 strip cards from a reputable dealer on ebay who took the card back. It was not a perfect scan . As soon as I received the card and looked at it , it was obvious that two out of the 4 sides were hand cut with small hanging pieces and jagged edges . You could see them with a magnifying glass or a loop. It was as clear as can be and any competent grader should have caught that one , not to mention the several SGC graded. I posted about the cards when I was a bidder and thought no way that if they were altered it would get through SGC or the dealer who sold them. I am sure people have had bad experiences with PSA that could be similar. That experience along with the fact the SGC cards don't normally cross and sell for less money is the reason I posted and agree with Kevin. I do understand why people like SGC . I just think Kevin is right about the values and I am just hesitant due to a bad experience
Rick Clemens

[Peter_Spaeth]

It may be hindsight, but the stamps weren't 100 percent convincing either.

[nolemmings]

It is hindsight, Peter. The 1921 SBs are a fairly obscure issue with a woefully incomplete checklist. The backs of these cards, which may not even be fakes or at least may be original blank-backs with added stamps, are not 100% convincing when held up next to one with a real back. Still, that is perhaps the best stamp I have seen--most just have text and not design, and while I agree it should have been caught, the breakdown here is far more understandable than letting a reprint m101 Ruth rookie get through.

Rick, I'm sorry for your bad experience and understand your PSA preference, although I don't share it. I just wanted to point out one last thing on those Standard Biscuits, and that's my opinion that your finding some jagged edges is nothing conclusive. I do not believe that shows them to be hand-cut, and W575s are often found machine cut. Machine cut cards can have jagged edges--here are two of several PSA cards I own that show this--note the view from the backs:
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/mym101s/backssportingnews/huge/16m1014judge.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/mym101s/backssportingnews/huge/16m1014callahan.jpg
I believe that certain B&W issues can have high-grade cards that retain these little fragments, which are then worn down or off as the card is handled. Now Standard Biscuits are very rarely seen in high grade, which maybe should have alerted SGC right there. But having a little "hair" on the edges doesn't mean they were trimmed or hand-cut, and wouldn't by itself tell a grader that these were strip cards (if they were).

[iwantitiwinit]

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6). And there appears to be some edge wear on the top border as well, although it could just be my eyes. If it's edge wear, then that knocks it down to a 60 (5). IMO, the seller made out like a bandit on this card. No way it's worth $1026. The buyer obviously bought the holder and not the card.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA0NFg2MzQ=/z/DRQAAOSwDNdVnvfI/$_57.JPG

Looks like a PSA 4.5 to me. Two soft bottom corners, poor centering and a stain in the middle of the top white border.

[mrvster]

Sgc are staffed with some very experienced graders...........TOP NOTCH STAFF

[Peter_Spaeth]

Todd good points. What it comes down to I guess is at least at the level of fees we are paying now, mistakes are going to happen and some of it is going to get through as long as the scumbags of the hobby set out to commit fraud. One wonders how these folks live with themselves.

[CMIZ5290]

Looks like a PSA 4.5 to me. Two soft bottom corners, poor centering and a stain in the middle of the top white border.

I'm with you Bob, ridiculous...

[CMIZ5290]

Looks like a PSA 4.5 to me. Two soft bottom corners, poor centering and a stain in the middle of the top white border.

Please folks, take another look at this card.... A 7, really?? This is ridiculous

[benchod]

You can find over graded cards in all TPG's holders.
How did PSA miss the brown stain on this highly prominent card? Besides the super narrow side borders? This Ruth must be the "skinny" variation

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersnr/nukesboy1/craigscards/websize/RuthRookie.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ouch.

[skelly]

I will agree that the Walsh is a very weak seven. With that said, I have a few very sharp SGC 5.5 ( 70 ) and 6 ( 80 ) cards that would easily pass for near mint / mint if raw. I don't really keep track of PSA cards, although I realize they are the "original" / "top dog" or whatever term you want to put on them. this has been a rather long thread, so I'll make a couple points and then bow out.

* It was mentioned by a previous poster that SGC might be moving to Florida. I would think this could be a mistake. SGC has some loyal collectors in the Northeast, and anytime I go into their office, they seem rather busy with people dropping off and picking up submissions. They seem like they have a nice thing going in New Jersey, I can't imagine that the move to Florida would see the same "walk in" business.

*As a collector and not an investor, I know it has been said a million times, but there is something that really makes the SGC cards pop with the black inserts, I just don't feel the same about PSA. I would have to think that someone looking to put together nice mid / upper grade raw sets could do very well buying sgc 5's and 6's at good prices and then popping them out of the cases. I can't speak for pre-war, but for 50's thru 70's stuff, I will admit that PSA does sell a little stronger in many cases.

* Finally and also mentioned before, the whole thing about joining PSA just to allow them to grade your stuff... I'll pass. My wife already thinks the whole card thing is a little weird. I mean if it was the other way around and my wife got her shoes graded, had to pay a place just to let them grade her shoes, I would find that a little extreme to be fair. Not a great analogy, but I think you know what I'm getting at. Why wouldn't PSA just let anyone send their stuff in and let members get a discounted rate, be eligible for specials, etc. I do agree with a previous post that a mixed registry would be a good thing. Make it that at least 25% of the set needs to be SGC or some sort of similar criteria.

[CMIZ5290]

You can find over graded cards in all TPG's holders.
How did PSA miss the brown stain on this highly prominent card? Besides the super narrow side borders? This Ruth must be the "skinny" variation

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersnr/nukesboy1/craigscards/websize/RuthRookie.jpg

Absolutely, any grade company is going to make mistakes. But even so, this card is a PSA 6, not an SGC 80. the ratio between PSA and SGC is not even close. SGC would probably give this card a grade of 82-84 knowing them. And even if it was by chance the same grade, the resale value between the two is not even close. I can show you scans of T206s graded SGC 88 that are ridiculous...

[CMIZ5290]

Without opening any future threads, these are enough, please look at VCP, card target, and past auction listings for comparisons between PSA and SGC.....Don't throw up when you do.....

[calvindog]

. SGC would probably give this card a grade of 82-84 knowing them.

Maybe even a 92, right? Do you think just because you repeat the same BS 100 times that it makes it any more believable? Comeon, Kevin, we get it: you have a strong financial interest in PSA cards selling for as much as possible. And your comments are colored by this.

[CMIZ5290]

Maybe even a 92, right? Do you think just because you repeat the same BS 100 times that it makes it any more believable? Comeon, Kevin, we get it: you have a strong financial interest in PSA cards selling for as much as possible. And your comments are colored by this.

You're damn right Jeff. Do you not get it financially??

[CMIZ5290]

I feel an ambush coming on......

[calvindog]

You're damn right Jeff. Do you not get it financially??

I think for Registry cards PSA sells higher. For cards that people are not foaming at the mouth for to put into their Registry sets there is little difference if any between SGC and PSA -- and personally I pay the same for such cards if they're in PSA or SGC slabs. I have thousands and thousands of Registry cards and they're all, by definition, PSA cards. Anything raw I purchase I send solely to SGC because I like the looks of the holders better, the customer service and the knowledge of the people at SGC more. And I see too many errors with PSA-slabbed cards but that may simply be a function of PSA grading so many more cards. All that being said, I'll be sending in my first submission to PSA in years due solely to their grading certain issues I have which SGC does not grade.

[CMIZ5290]

Fair enough....We can agree to disagree

[calvindog]

I feel an ambush coming on......

Relax, Kevin, you can start 100 threads about how much superior PSA is than SGC. No one listens to you anyway because everyone knows your apparent ability to feed yourself is directly related to the value of your PSA slabs.

[CMIZ5290]

:)Relax, Kevin, you can start 100 threads about how much superior PSA is than SGC. No one listens to you anyway because everyone knows your apparent ability to feed yourself is directly related to the value of your PSA slabs.

Nice...Having said that, prove me wrong with SGC and the difference in their prices compared to PSA....

[CMIZ5290]

You might be right about nobody listening, because it appears that 80% or higher on this forum prefer SGC.....Why I have absolutely no clue....

[calvindog]

:)

Nice...Having said that, prove me wrong with SGC and the difference in their prices compared to PSA....

Did you not read what I just wrote? In non-Registry cards there is no difference because those are cards purchased by card collectors rather than plastic slab collectors. The majority of people who are on Net 54 collect cards and not the slabs. And they favor SGC for a reason.

[CMIZ5290]

Did you not read what I just wrote? In non-Registry cards there is no difference because those are cards purchased by card collectors rather than plastic slab collectors. The majority of people who are on Net 54 collect cards and not the slabs. And they favor SGC for a reason.

I did read what you wrote. They dont value resale in their investment? Why does anyone collect then? Don't you want to improve your collection? I wonder if D. Hall is like this with coins?? Jeff- Everybody wants to make a profit on their investment, slabbed or raw....

[nolemmings]

"Why I have absolutely no clue.... "

On that we can agree.

[CMIZ5290]

Did you not read what I just wrote? In non-Registry cards there is no difference because those are cards purchased by card collectors rather than plastic slab collectors. The majority of people who are on Net 54 collect cards and not the slabs. And they favor SGC for a reason.

At some point, they have have to do something with their cards, right?

[calvindog]

I did read what you wrote. They dont value resale in their investment? Why does anyone collect then? I wonder if D. Hall is like this with coins??

Registry cards. Just Registry cards. And I know you can't seem to understand this but some people collect because they enjoy the cards and not the idea that the plastic may be worth more someday.

As for someone with a 7 figure collection I can tell you I don't think twice about what the PSA cards will bring on resale compared to my SGC cards. Because the majority of the cards I own are low pop and difficult to find in either SGC or PSA slabs. So they will resell for the same price regardless of the slab they are in.

Honestly, domt you think your type of collector is more often found on the PSA boards than here? With the constant discussion of the Registry, submissions being returned and resale value of Registry cards? The reason why 80% of rhe people here favor SGC is because their collecting focus IS NOT THE REGISTRY BUT THE CARDS THEMSELVES.

[CMIZ5290]

Registry cards. Just Registry cards. And I know you can't seem to understand this but some people collect because they enjoy the cards and not the idea that the plastic may be worth more someday.

As for someone with a 7 figure collection I can tell you I don't think twice about what the PSA cards will bring on resale compared to my SGC cards. Because the majority of the cards I own are low pop and difficult to find in either SGC or PSA slabs. So they will resell for the same price regardless of the slab they are in.

Fair enough, thanks Jeff...

[wonkaticket]

They dont value resale in their investment?

I think Jeff and others will be fine with their purchases.

Also as a person with a $7 dollar collection I too am not worried about resell but am a bit concerned about cab fare.

[calvindog]

I think Jeff and others will be fine with their purchases.

Also as a person with a $7 dollar collection I too am not worried about resell but am a bit concerned about cab fare.

I already told you I'm paying for our next dinner. No need to sell your 1958 Topps PSA 8 Don Mossi for $40.

[wonkaticket]

I already told you I'm paying for our next dinner. No need to sell your 1958 Topps PSA 8 Don Mossi for $40.

It's actually a PSA 8 MC but it's totally under graded Jeff looks like a 10.

[CMIZ5290]

It's actually a PSA 8 MC but it's totally under graded Jeff looks like a 10.

I bet it is...

[wonkaticket]

I bet it is...

Actually it isn't. I just got caught up in salesman BS over hyping a card that's exactly what it is, a PSA 8 with issues. Sorry Kevin.

[CMIZ5290]

:DActually it isn't....sorry I just got caught up in salesman BS over hyping a card that's exactly what is a PSA 8 with issues. Sorry Kevin.

nice try light bulb head...

[wonkaticket]

:D

nice try light bulb head...

A bald joke, that's your come back? Good to see your lack of originality is consistent across the board and isn't just found in your BST and TPG threads. :D

[calvindog]

:D

nice try light bulb head...

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now you did it.

[CMIZ5290]

:)A bald joke, that's your come back? Good to see your lack or originality is consistent across the board and isn't just found in your BST and TPG threads. :D

You're right , can't wait to see you at the National, cheers....

[wonkaticket]

:)

You're right , can't wait to see you at the National, cheers....

LOL, you're such a tool, I'm really glad you're around Kevin don't ever change. :D

[CMIZ5290]

1

[1880nonsports]

and thousands and thousands a bit beyond my somewhat pedestrian accumulation - but what he said.......

"I think for Registry cards PSA sells higher. For cards that people are not foaming at the mouth for to put into their Registry sets there is little difference if any between SGC and PSA -- and personally I pay the same for such cards if they're in PSA or SGC slabs. I have thousands and thousands of Registry cards and they're all, by definition, PSA cards. Anything raw I purchase I send solely to SGC because I like the looks of the holders better, the customer service and the knowledge of the people at SGC more. And I see too many errors with PSA-slabbed cards but that may simply be a function of PSA grading so many more cards. All that being said, I'll be sending in my first submission to PSA in years due solely to their grading certain issues I have which SGC does not grade. "
__________________
One final thought from me would be that PSA allows for front and back paperlosss all too often without it being reflected in the grade - something I'm less than a fan of and an important factor in my staying with SGC along with continuity. That said my main disappointment with SGC is that other people are seemingly dissatisfied with certain aspects of SGC that could be remedied - so much so that they have gravitated to PSA.
I prefer SGC remain healthy as competition spurs improvement and growth - to that end I wish they would take a more responsive and aggressive approach to upgrading their site and their product. I think they need to be more proactive - maybe spend a few dollars and as was said earlier - engage the most active targets with some kind of social media push or raise their profile. I'm reminded of the "we try harder" slogan........
Endless repeating the refrain that PSA is so much better than SGC tagline over and over does get a little old - whether it's the "laughable" SGC grading or the "are you kidding me" anecdotal sales prices used in attempt to beat a dead horse. Collectors will gravitate to whichever TPG aligns with their views of a proper grading and authentication system - their concerns after cost mostly driven by the card and not the commodity value - the seller gravitates to whomever at the time delivers the more saleable product.

[Touch'EmAll]

Yes, a second quality grader is paramount to the hobby. Coins have NGC and PCGS, generally people prefer PCGS and their items sell for little more, but NGC right on their heels and very respectable.

SGC does need some bona fide step up in marketing.

Biggest thing is, like the stock market, you make your money when you buy. You can pony up big for PSA, but will it yield profits when you sell? Be careful. Paying less for SGC can yield profits too.

[asphaltman]

Honestly I don't think either grading company (PSA vs SGC) is any better than the other. And like many here have said, PSA probably has a larger following at this point due to their set registry. Probably does make more sense if you have a T206, 1933 Goudey, or a 1941 Play Ball.

My question for the non-main stream T206 collector however. Would you equally pay just as much money and be just as comfortable for the most part buying a T206 with a Drum back? Would anyone getting a Drum graded these days just plain be better off going to PSA? If so, this is a far cry from the way things were on this board even five years ago.

[Leon]

Honestly I don't think either grading company (PSA vs SGC) is any better than the other. And like many here have said, PSA probably has a larger following at this point due to their set registry. Probably does make more sense if you have a T206, 1933 Goudey, or a 1941 Play Ball.

My question for the non-main stream T206 collector however. Would you equally pay just as much money and be just as comfortable for the most part buying a T206 with a Drum back? Would anyone getting a Drum graded these days just plain be better off going to PSA? If so, this is a far cry from the way things were on this board even five years ago.

I just sold my collection and sent in around 200 of my collection cards, all to SGC, to grade (except a few to Beckett which SGC didn't grade). When I had my T206s I only sent them to SGC too. I did have a few in PSA holders and just left them in them. A mid grade Drum will get the same price in a PSA or SGC holder, imo.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I still seeing PSA outpacing SGC graded cards for the most part....i do agree with leon that mid grade drums t206 type of cards are pretty similar....its been more than 6 months since the last post...anything change?

[bnorth]

I still seeing PSA outpacing SGC graded cards for the most part....i do agree with leon that mid grade drums t206 type of cards are pretty similar....its been more than 6 months since the last post...anything change?

Still seems to be the same as you can buy a SGC card much cheaper.:cool:

[Pilot172000]

So let me get this strait, PSA won't swap over SGC cards? If so, why not just crack open the holder and send in raw. If the card is graded properly, wouldn't PSA grade it as such? I have several SGC card none over $300 that I was planning on sending to PSA. Should I be worried that they would not ease them at all or grade them out the same the SGC once did?

[CMIZ5290]

So let me get this strait, PSA won't swap over SGC cards? If so, why not just crack open the holder and send in raw. If the card is graded properly, wouldn't PSA grade it as such? I have several SGC card none over $300 that I was planning on sending to PSA. Should I be worried that they would not ease them at all or grade them out the same the SGC once did?

David- PSA will look at submitted SGC cards in their holders. If you have high graded SGC cards, it takes big balls to crack them out and send in to PSA raw. There is somewhat of a mind game here. Why would PSA give a grade of 8 to an SGC graded card that is an 86? Do they want to give in to their major rival? I'm no expert here, but most people that I have spoken with have told me that SGC graded cards normally get lesser gradeds with PSA, especially the pre-war cards. At the end of the day, you really have to go with the strength of the card and not the holder, just my take...

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

You could send them to PSA still in the SGC holder and pay a "crossover" rate which is more expensive then a straight grade for a raw card. Many people including myself think that you get a biased opinion doing it this way as PSA seems to have a tendency to give you a grade below SGC's holder. Best way is to crack and submit raw (although over the last 18 months I've received about the same results doing it this way as well). I think overall PSA grades .5 to 1 grade stricter across the board.

[CMIZ5290]

You could send them to PSA still in the SGC holder and pay a "crossover" rate which is more expensive then a straight grade for a raw card. Many people including myself think that you get a biased opinion doing it this way as PSA seems to have a tendency to give you a grade below SGC's holder. Best way is to crack and submit raw (although over the last 18 months I've received about the same results doing it this way as well). I think overall PSA grades .5 to 1 grade stricter across the board.

Some truth to this possibly. But again, it takes a lot of nerve to crack out an SGC 88 T206 HOFer....Then you have the risk of it coming back from PSA as being trimmed or altered, not worth the risk IMO

[Pilot172000]

You could send them to PSA still in the SGC holder and pay a "crossover" rate which is more expensive then a straight grade for a raw card. Many people including myself think that you get a biased opinion doing it this way as PSA seems to have a tendency to give you a grade below SGC's holder. Best way is to crack and submit raw (although over the last 18 months I've received about the same results doing it this way as well). I think overall PSA grades .5 to 1 grade stricter across the board.

I see what you are saying and I can see how the stakes are significantly raised with the higher grade cards. I don't have anything over a 3 in SGC slabs so I really don't have that much skin in the game. I have noticed while I like PSA cards better, they seem to be less consistent in their grades. I have a PSA 3 that's sharp as razors and a PSA 3.5 that should at best be a grade below my PSA 3 cards. SGC cards seem to be more uniform in their grading for me anyways. I have learned through this forum to buy the card not the grade.

[pokerplyr80]

I'm actually more scared I would damage a high grade card cracking it out than I am it would get a lower grade or come back altered. Even sliding it back into a card saver. The risk of damage in shipping. No risk no reward I suppose, but the crack and resubmit game is one I haven't tried. That is unlikely to change in the future.

[roce4e52]

I started a fully graded 1958 Topps baseball set 8 or 9 years ago and finally finished it at the end of last year (yea for me!). At one time I had about 1/2 of the set PSA and 1/2 SGC graded. Switched to all PSA a few years ago because they were easier to find on Ebay.
Looked at the buy it now pop today for PSA and SGC cards on Ebay and it is around 4500 PSA and less than 500 SGC.
I like the look of cards in SGC holders better and they seem graded no better or worse than PSA but they were just harder to find. This is only my observation and only regarding 58 Topps, but they also sell for 10 to 30% less for cards of same grade. Eight years ago when I started the prices were almost par for equal grades ( the lower trend started about 4 years ago).
B1L d0n@1dsun

[RobertGT]

A couple of years ago I purchased pretty large lot of graded cards for the purpose of resale on eBay. The lot consisted of pretty equal representation of cards slabbed by PSA, BGS, SGC, and BVG.

I listed all the cards at the same time and they were priced to move, right at the VCP average.

SGC cards BY FAR took the longest to sell. PSA sold the fastest and Beckett was better than I expected. In fact, SGC was no match for even Beckett. Some of the SGC slabs (priced as low as $5!) are still sitting in my store while the others are long gone.

I'm not one to join in the "bash this or that grading company" crusade, but the centering on some cards that I've seen with SGC 84 7 is absolutely horrendous.

Not a good look for SGC.

[Pilot172000]

I mailed off all but two of my SGC cards to PSA yesterday. Nothing over a 40/3 but still my babies. I am hopeful I can get equal grades and move on.

[jfkheat]

Several months ago I sent 2 SGC graded 1954 Red Heart cards to PSA for crossover. The cards were a SGC 88(8) Billy Martin and a SGC 96(9) Hank Sauer. I requested minimum grades of 8 and 8.5. Both cards crossed to the same as SGC had them graded.
James

[Bosox Blair]

None of this is true in a general sense.

PSA rules in the grading of post-War commodity cards a.k.a. Registry cards. In pre-War terms the comparables are pretty much limited to high-grade T206.

For everything else (this is a pre-War forum, so this is what matters here), there is no material difference in pricing and everyone knows it.

I note that REA still sends lots of pre-War cards to SGC for grading before auction. Are they stupid? Are they looking to lose money? Are they screwing over the consignors? No, no, and no. The fact is that this PSA market superiority is asserted incessantly by some people who have no real relevant data to back it up.

I don't give a crap about anyone's high-grade 50s Topps - this is a pre-War forum. And high-grade T206 is not enough of a sample to make the kind of sweeping generalizations that seem to be popular lately.

The facts always seem to get in the way of a good argument...

Cheers,
Blair

[esd10]

Psa was founded on a lie and deception with the Psa 8 t206 wagner and i have always questioned if some of these auction houses and "elite" collectors could buy a grade they want because of the money they spend. I might be way off base with the ability to purchase a grade but it seems that way to me at some of these cards I have seen graded that don't deserve the high grade they have received.

[VintageJay]

Psa was founded on a lie and deception with the Psa 8 t206 wagner and i have always questioned if some of these auction houses and "elite" collectors could buy a grade they want because of the money they spend. I might be way off base with the ability to purchase a grade but it seems that way to me at some of these cards I have seen graded that don't deserve the high grade they have received.


I couldn't agree more.

Also, to say PSA is better than SGC or vice versa is just ridiculous. Both grading companies, at least the last I checked, have humans on their payroll. And with humans, comes human error.

Both companies have hundreds, if not thousands, of undergraded/overgraded cards.

Most of us here have been collecting a lot longer than some of these "experts" that grade these cards.

[xplainer]

I couldn't agree more.

Also, to say PSA is better than SGC or vice versa is just ridiculous. Both grading companies, at least the last I checked, have humans on their payroll. And with humans, comes human error.

Both companies have hundreds, if not thousands, of undergraded/overgraded cards.

Most of us here have been collecting a lot longer than some of these "experts" that grade these cards.

Actually, I think the OP stated that PSA cards sell consistantly higher than SGC cards - not that one is "better" than the other.

Last month, I did my own research on eBay concerning this. I used T206 Green Cobb, 62 Topps Maris, 69 Topps Mantle and 75 Topps Aaron. Without exception, the PSA sold 15% or more higher than the SGC of equal grade.

I know this as a fact. I simply looked for myself.

[Luke]

I haven't read all of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been said:

I have sent a lot of tobacco cards to both PSA and SGC lately, and I think the main difference in price is that the two companies are using different grading scales. A few years ago we used to joke around on here about some terrible cards in PSA 3-5 holders. I think they have over-corrected, because they are grading very tough right now. SGC seems to be grading a little bit easier than they used to. I have a bunch of VGEX-ish raw cards that I'm getting ready to submit, and I know they will get between 3.5 and 4 from PSA, and 55-60 from SGC.

It would be great for collectors if all grading companies used the same standards, but I don't think they have ever claimed that they do. Right now, a PSA 4 is going to cost more than an SGC 50, and it should because in almost all cases, it will be in better condition.

For the lower end of the grading spectrum, I haven't noticed much difference. But it is very clear in the mid-grades. I don't personally have any experience with submitting high-grade cards.