Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[calvindog]

Mastro is scheduled to be sentenced before Judge Guzman in federal court in Chicago in August. He will be receiving a sentence of most likely less than 30 months pursuant to his cooperation agreement with the government. The deal he has with the government requires him to pay back *zero* dollars in restitution to his victims. In addition, just today, Bill Boehm, Mastro's codefendant, received a sentence of three months house arrest for his actions in defrauding collectors who bid on Mastro auctions.

If anyone would like to write a letter directly to the judge expressing your feelings about Bill's conduct and his impact on our hobby, the sentence he is about to receive and the fact that you will not be receiving a penny in restitution despite the massive fraud he committed, now is nearing your last chance.

Address your letter to:

Judge Ronald A. Guzman
219 South Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604

The case name is U.S. v. Mastro, 1:12-cr-00567.

Finally, it is also my understanding that Bill is presently reaching out to some high profile collectors and sending them happy little packages with some cards for their collections along with a happy note. As Bill never had a reputation for generosity, it is curious timing so close to his sentencing but that's just my opinion. Please don't let such a package deter you from telling the truth about Bill's negative impact on our hobby.

[Enfuego]

Such Shenanigans!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

What does this bode for Doug and Mark?

[ullmandds]

unbelievable...the legal system is shit!!!!

[Rob D.]

Orange is the new black and "happy little packages" are the new steak dinner at the National. Hardly a surprise.

Rob Dewolf

[atx840]

unbelievable...the legal system is shit!!!!


Ha, you should see it up here...only thing worse is the postal service and our dental coverage plans.

[ullmandds]

Ha, you should see it up here...only thing worse is the postal service and our dental coverage plans.

sounds similar to down here!!!

I think most americans would agree the healthcare delivery system is "broken"...and in need of a major overhaul.

Can we say the same thing of the legal system?

[Brian Van Horn]

Now that the National has been brought up, what is the over under on the first dealer to be arrested?

[Joshchisox08]

unbelievable...the legal system is shit!!!!

It's all about money. Agreed. Legal system my fay ##*king ass. Total home on all accounts. That goes for any legality.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Very cogent analysis.

[ethicsprof]

It's all about money. Agreed. Legal system my fay ****ing ass. Total home on all accounts. That goes for any legality.

Please.... I'd like to have my nephew continue perusing this website.

Barry Arnold

[Rob D.]

What kind of an uncle are you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Please.... I'd like to have my nephew continue perusing this website.

Barry Arnold

Oh he's really a very classy guy Barry.

[ethicsprof]

What kind of an uncle are you?

since he is my great nephew, I would think that makes me a great uncle. :)

best,
barry

[ethicsprof]

Oh he's really a very classy guy Barry.

many thanks, my good friend.
your generous compliment is very, very classy, as are you.

best,
Barry

[Peter_Spaeth]

unbelievable...the legal system is shit!!!!

How do we get from the sentencing recommendation of a single prosecutor to the entire system?

[Sean]

Ha, you should see it up here...only thing worse is the postal service and our dental coverage plans.

While we're off-topic, can we get Pete's take on the state of dental care?

[Peter_Spaeth]

While we're off-topic, can we get Pete's take on the state of dental care?

Yes, that recent wisdom tooth case was right in Pete's area, a terrible tragedy and certainly hope it was not the result of any fault.

http://www.startribune.com/eden-prairie-teen-dies-after-cardiac-arrest-during-wisdom-teeth-extraction/307483751/

[Leon]

It's all about money. Agreed. Legal system my fay ##*king ass. Total home on all accounts. That goes for any legality.

No more F bombs Josh... I have no idea what "total home" means but I guess either you are "safe or not" at home plate?...thanks

[Joshchisox08]

No more F bombs Josh... I have no idea what "total home" means but I guess either you are "safe or not" at home plate?...thanks

Bahhahaha. Sorry Leon won't happen again. I was out at home.

[Leon]

Bahhahaha. Sorry Leon won't happen again. I was out at home.

I am just curious what language you speak too? If you are out then how can you be at home? Were you in your backyard?

[autograf]

"Dudes on ludes should not drive"
-Spicoli

[ullmandds]

Yes, that recent wisdom tooth case was right in Pete's area, a terrible tragedy and certainly hope it was not the result of any fault.

http://www.startribune.com/eden-prairie-teen-dies-after-cardiac-arrest-during-wisdom-teeth-extraction/307483751/

This incident was an unfortunate one...could have happened to any doctor from the sounds of it...

[rainier2004]

Jeff - So it sounds to me he might get a short sentence? At this point with all that has happened and now a sentencing, what do think he will get? When do you think Judge Guzman will actually make the decision (more of the mental process here, not the actual sentencing date) on the sentence?

[calvindog]

The prosecutor is recommending less than 30 months (assuming Bill's cooperation was substantial) and he will pay back no money to his victims. As for the judge's decision, he will rely on a whole host of factors which include letters to the court from Bill's victims about their experiences with him and his general character.

[autograf]

What about Doug and Mark?

[Joshchisox08]

I am just curious what language you speak too? If you are out then how can you be at home? Were you in your backyard?

As I often do I had one too many pints last eve. This is how that comment came about. :D

It's pretty damn funny reading it today.

[Leon]

As I often do I had one too many pints last eve. This is how that comment came about. :D

It's pretty damn funny reading it today.

Just watch the F bombs and dirty language and you won't hear much from me. We try to keep it fairly clean so your 12 yrs old son or daughter (as an example not that you have a 12 yr old) could read the board. thanks

[SmokyBurgess]

Please.... I'd like to have my nephew continue perusing this website.

Barry Arnold


+1

[bxb]

We collectors are paying a high price for Mastro's cooperation.

Any idea what the specifics are regarding said cooperation?

[SMPEP]

Tom - it's "people" not Dudes. If you're going to quote Mr. Spicoli ... at least quote him accurately! :D

[GaryPassamonte]

If I were a wronged party, I would care much more about restitution than length of sentence. It is like putting the cart before the horse. Why does this happen so frequently?

[Leon]

If I were a wronged party, I would care much more about restitution than length of sentence. It is like putting the cart before the horse. Why does this happen so frequently?

Gary, I think if you bid in their auctions you were a wronged party. I told Mastro's lawyer I expected restitution and an apology and I would think about a letter. Nothing has changed (except a small gift in the mail which was appreciated).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Gary, I think if you bid in their auctions you were a wronged party. I told Mastro's lawyer I expected restitution and an apology and I would think about a letter. Nothing has changed (except a small gift in the mail which was appreciated).

So he tried, in effect, to buy a favorable letter to the judge? Or was he just sending you a gift in a generous spirit?

[calvindog]

Gary, I think if you bid in their auctions you were a wronged party. I told Mastro's lawyer I expected restitution and an apology and I would think about a letter. Nothing has changed (except a small gift in the mail which was appreciated).

He's not paying you restitution.

He sent you the gift in the mail to try to stop you from writing a letter to the court about his stealing from his friends -- solely because he doesn't want the judge to sentence him to a longer sentence.

Once he's sentenced and he doesn't need to manipulate you anymore the gifts in the mail will stop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If someone tried to bribe or influence me with a gift, I would like to think I would return it.

[Leon]

He's not paying you restitution.

He sent you the gift in the mail to try to stop you from writing a letter to the court about his stealing from his friends -- solely because he doesn't want the judge to sentence him to a longer sentence.

Once he's sentenced and he doesn't need to manipulate you anymore the gifts in the mail will stop.

I know Jeff. My views haven't changed concerning writing a letter. I have said AFTER restitution (it would have to be for all affected not just me) AND a public apology I would think about it. Since the first isn't going to happen I think it's analogous to arguing moot points with my wife. I am very practiced at it though.

[calvindog]

Here's what Bill said about the letters to the judge written by his victims and the anger some of them have displayed:

"I have no idea where such resentment comes from but to date my judge has received 2 letters….2! I had over 30,000 people on our mailing list and 2 people wrote letters."

So Bill believes that his victims apparently approve of his criminal actions because they are not writing to the judge.

[GaryPassamonte]

Why isn't restitution the first part of any judgement. If wronged, I would want to be compensated for that wrong. I couldn't care less if the party goes to jail or not.

[Leon]

Here's what Bill said about the letters to the judge written by his victims and the anger some of them have displayed:

"I have no idea where such resentment comes from but to date my judge has received 2 letters….2! I had over 30,000 people on our mailing list and 2 people wrote letters."

So Bill believes that his victims apparently approve of his criminal actions because they are not writing to the judge.

Since letters are sometimes made public, and a certain HUGE fraudster with his own website might get them and twist them as he often does, maybe people don't want to speak out? I don't think anyone can guarantee a letter won't be made public, can they? (except the judge I guess)

[calvindog]

Why isn't restitution the first part of any judgement. If wronged, I would want to be compensated for that wrong. I couldn't care less if the party goes to jail or not.

Address your letter to:

Judge Ronald A. Guzman
219 South Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604

The case name is U.S. v. Mastro, 1:12-cr-00567.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why isn't restitution the first part of any judgement. If wronged, I would want to be compensated for that wrong. I couldn't care less if the party goes to jail or not.

Pretty hard to calculate and administer in a case like this with so many bidders oand so many lots over so many years, I would imagine.

[Leon]

Pretty hard to calculate and administer in a case like this with so many bidders oand so many lots over so many years, I would imagine.

5 million dollar lifetime fine split over everyone that bid, just like a class action that has been awarded *(in layperson terms).....that is a start.

[Peter_Spaeth]

5 million dollar lifetime fine split over everyone that bid, just like a class action that has been awarded *(in layperson terms).....that is a start.

In a class action, to collect you typically have to submit a proof of claim. There is a whole administrative process. And there's no way every lot was shilled such that every bidder would have a claim.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Plus, he never would have plea bargained if it included a mutli million dollar award, is my guess.

[calvindog]

Plus, he never would have plea bargained if it included a mutli million dollar award, is my guess.

I disagree completely. What was he going to do, go to trial?

But before we go back into pontificating about the ills of the legal system, can we again focus on the following:

if you wish to tell the judge your thoughts on Bill Mastro, good or bad, you should write to the judge because you will have no other opportunity to be heard on this matter. Complaining on Net 54 does not move the ball forward.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I disagree completely. What was he going to do, go to trial?

You are closer to it than I am fair enough, but why then didn't the prosecution insist on restitution?

[PM770]

You are closer to it than I am fair enough, but why then didn't the prosecution insist on restitution?

Maybe the prosecutor got a gift in the mail.

[Leon]

In a class action, to collect you typically have to submit a proof of claim. There is a whole administrative process. And there's no way every lot was shilled such that every bidder would have a claim.

You said no way, I gave a way. He is proven (I believe) to have shilled. My restitution may not be perfect but it seems better than what is being done.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You said no way, I gave a way. He is proven (I believe) to have shilled. My restitution may not be perfect but it seems better than what is being done.

Well yes he shilled but that does not mean every lot was shilled. So many bidders may not have been damaged at all.

[Leon]

Well yes he shilled but that does not mean every lot was shilled. So many bidders may not have been damaged at all.

And we will never know as so many records were destroyed by them. I believe that makes my solution more equitable. It's something ..

[Peter_Spaeth]

And we will never know as so many records were destroyed by them. I believe that makes my solution more equitable. It's something ..

It certainly would be interesting to know why the prosecution, with all the leverage it must have had, agreed to a deal with no money.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Man all I got from Mastro recently was junk wax boxes from the 1990s..where do I send the sentencing recommendation too again?

[calvindog]

I'm lost. Are you two discussing a fantasy restitution plan which will never be implemented?

[Leon]

I'm lost. Are you two discussing a fantasy restitution plan which will never be implemented?

Pretty much ...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm lost. Are you two discussing a fantasy restitution plan which will never be implemented?

To some extent, but I am also pointing out that without seeing bidding records it's difficult to know if one was shill bid or not, and thus entitled to restitution (or for that matter to tell a judge how much one was hurt).

[ullmandds]

To some extent, but I am also pointing out that without seeing bidding records it's difficult to know if one was shill bid or not, and thus entitled to restitution (or for that matter to tell a judge how much one was hurt).

agreed...I bid on and won...1...high dollar card that may/may not have been shilled...but how can I know?

[Peter_Spaeth]

agreed...I bid on and won...1...high dollar card that may/may not have been shilled...but how can I know?

Right, that's my point. Obviously if you bid on dozens of items over the years and paid record prices it's a fair inference, but for most people they would seem to have no way of knowing.

[calvindog]

Right, that's my point. Obviously if you bid on dozens of items over the years and paid record prices it's a fair inference, but for most people they would seem to have no way of knowing.

What about the lots in which the fraud is easily determined? Countless numbers of lots in which Bill/Mastro were the first underbidders? Are those also impossible to determine loss amount? Why no restitution for even those victims?

Again, this thread is not to rub our temples and discuss fantasy restitution scenarios which will not only have zero chance of coming to fruition but will not even be presented to the judge --- unless you actually write a letter to the judge.

[Leon]

Right, that's my point. Obviously if you bid on dozens of items over the years and paid record prices it's a fair inference, but for most people they would seem to have no way of knowing.

Thanks for continuing to support my case :).

[Peter_Spaeth]

What about the lots in which the fraud is easily determined? Countless numbers of lots in which Bill/Mastro were the first underbidders? Are those also impossible to determine loss amount? Why no restitution for even those victims?

Again, this thread is not to rub our temples and discuss fantasy restitution scenarios which will not only have zero chance of coming to fruition but will not even be presented to the judge --- unless you actually write a letter to the judge.

And how does a member of the public not privy to the bidding records know which lots these were?

I asked you before, you tell us why no restitution if the prosecution had all that leverage such that Mastro would not have gone to trial?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thanks for continuing to support my case :).

Return the gift/bribe and I'll support it even more.:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dear Judge Guzman, I have no access to bidding records and no way to know if I personally was harmed or not, or to what extent if I was, but shill bidding is a really really bad thing and I've heard it was pretty extensive here, so throw the book at that bastard Mastro please.:)

[calvindog]

And how does a member of the public not privy to the bidding records know which lots these were?

I asked you before, you tell us why no restitution if the prosecution had all that leverage such that Mastro would not have gone to trial?

There is a Mandatory Victim Restitution Act (18 USC sec. 3663A (c)(3) which holds that:

"This section shall not apply in the case of an offense described in paragraph (1)(A)(ii) if the court finds, from facts on the record, that—
(A) the number of identifiable victims is so large as to make restitution impracticable; or
(B) determining complex issues of fact related to the cause or amount of the victim’s losses would complicate or prolong the sentencing process to a degree that the need to provide restitution to any victim is outweighed by the burden on the sentencing process."

This is the reason why restitution was not ordered (and it is noted in the cooperation agreement); however, it doesn't explain why the government did not even attempt to get any forfeiture money from Mastro.

[GaryPassamonte]

Thankfully, I have had no dealings with our criminal justice system. Common sense dictates that compensating the wronged parties financially in some fashion should come first. I have no idea whether I was shilled in a Mastro Auction or not. However, it seems that, in this case, requiring Mastro to pay monetarily in some way would be required. To take Leon's point, it makes more sense to give all bidders something than everyone nothing. Saying that determining exactly who was shilled and how much they were shilled is too difficult a task shouldn't be the final answer. Justice is not being served.

[calvindog]

Dear Judge Guzman, I have no access to bidding records and no way to know if I personally was harmed or not, or to what extent if I was, but shill bidding is a really really bad thing and I've heard it was pretty extensive here, so throw the book at that bastard Mastro please.:)

Hey Pete, in the time it takes to pontificate on Net 54 about imaginary restitution plans you could go to PACER, print out Mastro's cooperation agreement and count the 59 times or so in which he admitted committing fraud during his auctions. Whether you know for certain if you're a victim or not (you were) it doesn't change what Mastro did to the hobby, does not change how inflated prices on cards from his auctions affect future prices on cards the rest of us will be buying.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is a Mandatory Victim Restitution Act (18 USC sec. 3663A (c)(3) which holds that:

"This section shall not apply in the case of an offense described in paragraph (1)(A)(ii) if the court finds, from facts on the record, that—
(A) the number of identifiable victims is so large as to make restitution impracticable; or
(B) determining complex issues of fact related to the cause or amount of the victim’s losses would complicate or prolong the sentencing process to a degree that the need to provide restitution to any victim is outweighed by the burden on the sentencing process."

This is the reason why restitution was not ordered (and it is noted in the cooperation agreement); however, it doesn't explain why the government did not even attempt to get any forfeiture money from Mastro.

Well it's unfortunate they didn't but I assume they had reasons for the judgment call.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hey Pete, in the time it takes to pontificate on Net 54 about imaginary restitution plans you could go to PACER, print out Mastro's cooperation agreement and count the 59 times or so in which he admitted committing fraud during his auctions. Whether you know for certain if you're a victim or not (you were) it doesn't change what Mastro did to the hobby, does not change how inflated prices on cards from his auctions affect future prices on cards the rest of us will be buying.

Date? Looking at the docket but don't see it.

Oh wait I found it. I've read it before, this is the one where the government puts the loss at between 400k and 1M right?

[calvindog]

Oct 10, 2013

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right, I've read it before, no doubt some very bad stuff in there. My point is simply that except for a few specific items that are named there, there isn't enough to know whether one was shilled. He admits to shilling "more than 50" lots I think but in the context of all those auctions that doesn't really give an indication of scope.

[calvindog]

Right, I've read it before, no doubt some very bad stuff in there. My point is simply that except for a few specific items that are named there, there isn't enough to know whether one was shilled. He admits to shilling "more than 50" lots I think but in the context of all those auctions that doesn't really give an indication of scope.

There's language which describes shill bidding by Mastro on a frequent, auction-wide level. Just because parts of the agreement reference specific lots or victims does not mean his fraud was limited to them.

As for not knowing specifically whether one was shilled, so what? If you bid in his auctions you were most likely shilled. If you buy a card in the future which has an artificially high price due to the fraud in Mastro's auctions, you are a victim. And you can write to the judge without knowing specifically if you were defrauded by Mastro especially since the Mastro defendants destroyed bidding records.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think I could top the letter from the psychologist diagnosing him with Narcissistic Personality Disorder with Antisocial Features.

[CW]

I know Jeff. My views haven't changed concerning writing a letter. I have said AFTER restitution (it would have to be for all affected not just me) AND a public apology I would think about it. Since the first isn't going to happen I think it's analogous to arguing moot points with my wife. I am very practiced at it though.

I think you and Jeff are talking about two completely different types of letters.

Are you referring to a letter which speaks positively about Mastro, which you would write after restitution and an apology?

Jeff is referring to writing a letter now, to the judge, explaining how you and/or the hobby were damaged by Mastro's fraudulent activities. These letters may be critical to send now, before sentencing, since it appears Bill will get off without having to pay any restitution as it now stands.

[calvindog]

I think you and Jeff are talking about two completely different types of letters.

Are you referring to a letter which speaks positively about Mastro, which you would write after restitution and an apology?

Jeff is referring to writing a letter now, to the judge, explaining how you and/or the hobby were damaged by Mastro's fraudulent activities. These letters may be critical to send now, before sentencing, since it appears Bill will get off without having to pay any restitution as it now stands.

Yes, Bill isn't sending any gifts to collectors for a letter to the judge which tell the truth about him. He's hoping for either a positive letter or no letter at all. Certainly not the truth.

[ullmandds]

There's language which describes shill bidding by Mastro on a frequent, auction-wide level. Just because parts of the agreement reference specific lots or victims does not mean his fraud was limited to them.

As for not knowing specifically whether one was shilled, so what? If you bid in his auctions you were most likely shilled. If you buy a card in the future which has an artificially high price due to the fraud in Mastro's auctions, you are a victim. And you can write to the judge without knowing specifically if you were defrauded by Mastro especially since the Mastro defendants destroyed bidding records.

I AM going to write a letter tonight...and I urge anyone who has bid in one of his auctions to do so as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The paragraph in the Doug Allen plea agreement about the altered PSA 6 T206 Plank -- which he sent to a card doctor in California for a new back and then on to be graded -- should make people nervous on a number of levels. But most likely it won't, because we don't want to deal with reality.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=35826

Despicable: "This scarcer-backed version of the sought-after card (with a "Sweet Caporal - 350 subjects" advertisement adorning the reverse instead of the more routine "150" variety) boasts wonderful clarity in its back's discreet red inking and perfectly toned surround."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Screenshot part 1.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And 2.

[HRBAKER]

The paragraph in the Doug Allen plea agreement about the altered PSA 6 T206 Plank -- which he sent to a card doctor in California for a new back and then on to be graded -- should make people nervous on a number of levels. But most likely it won't, because we don't want to deal with reality.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=35826

Despicable: "This scarcer-backed version of the sought-after card (with a "Sweet Caporal - 350 subjects" advertisement adorning the reverse instead of the more routine "150" variety) boasts wonderful clarity in its back's discreet red inking and perfectly toned surround."

And there you have it.

[Leon]

And there you have it.

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

[HRBAKER]

I've always said the church could learn a lot from this hobby. I've never seen a larger collection of more forgiving people.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

Gives you a lot of confidence in graded cards, doesn't it, when they slab a trimmed Wagner and a rebacked Plank, cards obviously deserving of a far more exacting review than most.

[calvindog]

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

Mastro's actions were just as bad if not significantly worse. You should cut the crap and write a letter to the judge explaining how badly they have both damaged the hobby. You're the owner of this board and a leading voice in the hobby. "Leading" is what leaders do. Mastro sent you a gift/bribe for a reason -- because he wanted your help with a positive letter to the court. Can you actually say with a straight face that this man deserves a letter praising him to the judge? Can you actually say with a straight face that the judge doesn't deserve to hear the truth about Mastro and the true extent of his fraud on our hobby?

Lastly, he could have agreed to restitution to his victims -- all of the people who were defrauded in his auctions. And he didn't.

[Eric72]

Gives you a lot of confidence in graded cards, doesn't it, when they slab a trimmed Wagner and a rebacked Plank, cards obviously deserving of an exacting review.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've always said the church could learn a lot from this hobby. I've never seen a larger collection of more forgiving people.

I think more willfully blind than forgiving. A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest, as the song goes.

[calvindog]

Since letters are sometimes made public, and a certain HUGE fraudster with his own website might get them and twist them as he often does, maybe people don't want to speak out? I don't think anyone can guarantee a letter won't be made public, can they? (except the judge I guess)

You can ask that your letter not be publicly docketed and just provided to the parties instead.

And Pete Nash is going to rip you or not rip you regardless of what you do here. And honestly, Leon, I wouldn't be surprised if he gives you hell for this thread alone.

[Jobu]

At the risk of appearing to be a bit green, do people here think TPGs simply missed this alteration (and the others) because it was so good or is there likely to have been someone at the TPG who was on the take?

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

[calvindog]

I think more willfully blind than forgiving. A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest, as the song goes.

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mastro's actions were just as bad if not significantly worse. You should cut the crap and write a letter to the judge explaining how badly they have both damaged the hobby. You're the owner of this board and a leading voice in the hobby. "Leading" is what leaders do. Mastro sent you a gift/bribe for a reason -- because he wanted your help with a positive letter to the court. Can you actually say with a straight face that this man deserves a letter praising him to the judge? Can you actually say with a straight face that the judge doesn't deserve to hear the truth about Mastro and the true extent of his fraud on our hobby?

Lastly, he could have agreed to restitution to his victims -- all of the people who were defrauded in his auctions. And he didn't.

Yes, Mastro altered an even more expensive card, but I doubt that's the point you are trying to make.

[keithsky]

How the heck did that T206 Plank even pass the authenticating company with an altered back? Was that PSA? Shouldn't they be held responsible in some way? Apparently they didn't do there job or even know what there doing. Or were they in bed together? Boy alot of questions need to be answered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think he was being sarcastic.

Perhaps but it's true. In the name of stuff people forgive almost anything.

[calvindog]

Perhaps but it's true. In the name of stuff people forgive almost anything.

Mastro and Allen are no longer selling cards. There is no reason to keep your mouth shut in exchange for buying their cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At the risk of appearing to be a bit green, do people here think TPGs simply missed this alteration (and the others) because it was so good or is there likely to have been someone at the TPG who was on the take?

I have no idea in this case, but there are people out there who are very skilled in this sort of work, and remember PSA is not the FBI.

[rdwyer]

Lethal injection and/or restitution!

[Exhibitman]

Anyone want to guess at the odds of Allen and/or Theotikis showing up in Chicago next month?

[Kenny Cole]

With respect to Peter's suggestion that its difficult to write a letter if you don't know that you've been defrauded (in part because Mastro destroyed bidding records), isn't concealment sort of the quintessential essence of fraud? Concealment, non-disclosure, false representation, deceit. Failure to disclose material facts when you have a duty to speak is fraud. Half-truths can be fraud, because there is a duty to tell the actual truth, not part of it. I don't know that I would suggest he was a fiduciary, but he damn sure told people that they could submit max bids and that those bids would be held in confidence and not utilized unless/until another bidder (who I think most people would have fairly inferred was not the auction house) topped the existing bid. That apparently didn't happen on a relatively frequent basis.

Also, at least where I'm from, destruction of relevant evidence in and of itself creates an inference that the evidence which was destroyed would have been adverse to the party who destroyed it. The fact that occurred is fairly damning IMO, and is indicative of fraud and shilling on a far more widespread basis than indicated in the plea agreement IMO.

Even apart from the damage to the hobby and the fact that people are most likely paying inflated prices due to the shilling of cards someone else was unfortunate enough to win, I think there is plenty of reason for everyone who bid in Mastro's auctions to assert that they were likely defrauded. I guess I also need to write a letter....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

[ullmandds]

I wrote my letter...took maybe 20 minutes in front of the tv.

Anyone who has ever bid on a baseball card in an auction has a duty to write a letter...be it ebay, Goodwin, REA, Legendary...any one. Unless you like giving money to crooks that is.

We all have a beef in this fight. Don't be lazy!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wrote my letter...took maybe 20 minutes in front of the tv.

Anyone who has ever bid on a baseball card in an auction has a duty to write a letter...be it ebay, Goodwin, REA, Legendary...any one. Unless you like giving money to crooks that is.

We all have a beef in this fight. Don't be lazy!

I personally don't want to write a letter in circumstances where I have no strong basis to believe I am a direct victim. That doesn't make me lazy, and I don't see why I have a duty. I could make the same argument about any crime that affects people broadly. Should I write letters every time some financial fraudster is sentenced? It certainly COULD have affected me in some way.

[ullmandds]

That's your prerogative Peter. I won my former m101-6 ruth from legendary in aug 12'...and there's a chance I was shilled.

A handful of auction houses have admitted to shill bidding in the past...in addition to the nonsense on ebay...chances are you've won a card from one of these houses I'd bet!

If you don't think Bill Mastro should be able to walk away from this virtually scott free without paying retribution or doing serious time...DON'T DO ANYTHING.

If you think he should pay a price for his indiscretions...maybe be made an example of...write a letter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I feel much more strongly about the card doctors who will never face justice than about whether Mastro gets a few extra months or not. To me, the damage they have inflicted, and continue to inflict, is much more significant than Mastro and all the other houses running people up. I don't condone it, and yes it sucks and the guilty should be punished, but to fixate on that to the exclusion of a worse problem is to my mind myopic.

[calvindog]

Peter, you've contrarianed yourself into a pretzel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, you've contrarianed yourself into a pretzel.

Well you set an example for me, Jeff.

Edited to add:)

[calvindog]

Well you set an example for me, Jeff.

Yeah, I sure have. Keep rubbing your temples and explaining how you're not affected by Mastro's massive fraud. Or maybe you just don't want to write a letter to the court because you helped a friend shill some of his Mastro lots?

Edited to add :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, I sure have. Keep rubbing your temples and explaining how you're not affected by Mastro's massive fraud. Or maybe you just don't want to write a letter to the court because you helped a friend shill some of his Mastro lots?

Edited to add :)

I never claimed to be unaffected, you are mischaracterizing my words. I said I am not sure enough that I have been affected to write the equivalent of a victim impact statement. There is a difference, no?

[ullmandds]

Well...it seems to me that you have to start somewhere...and the lighter the sentence Mastro gets...the lighter the sentence/fine the card doctor will get when he/she is brought to justice.

But the card doctor will never get in trouble...for what they do in and of itself is not against the law...but providing a venue to distribute these known...altered cards is!

[calvindog]

I never claimed to be unaffected, you are mischaracterizing my words. I said I am not sure enough that I have been affected to write the equivalent of a victim impact statement. There is a difference, no?

The letter to the court is not a victim impact statement -- it is a letter discussing Mastro's character and the impact he has had on the hobby. It is not a victim impact statement.

[chaddurbin]

i didn't get a dinner or a gift, and i bidded and won a few 5figs cards in mastro throughout the years...gonna cover my bases and write that letter. dude was always too upbeat for my taste, kinda creepy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The letter to the court is not a victim impact statement -- it is a letter discussing Mastro's character and the impact he has had on the hobby. It is not a victim impact statement.

The ones I read seemed to be, for the most part anyhow. So I guess that is how I had thought about them. I had not thought the Court would be interested in more general observations about the hobby.

[calvindog]

i didn't get a dinner or a gift, and i bidded and won a few 5figs cards in mastro throughout the years...gonna cover my bases and write that letter. dude was always too upbeat for my taste, kinda creepy.

What if he sends you an Andre Ethier rookie card in PSA 7? Can you be bought?

[chaddurbin]

What if he sends you a Andre Ethier rookie card in PSA 7? Can you be bought?

probably a smart thing to stay away from the mastro/psa or allen/psa combo at this point.

[Kenny Cole]

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

I think it would largely depend on the judge and what he/she would let in. I'm not saying it would be an ideal case by any means, but I'm not sure it would be a loser either. You can prove fraud by circumstantial evidence and I don't necessarily have a problem doing that. I don't know why you think I wouldn't get discovery though. That seems kind of unrealistic. It would be fun to take a deposition where Mastro can't plead the 5th because he's already pled out and even if he does, you get to draw an adverse inference and talk to the jury about that in a civil case. Adverse inference from record destruction, adverse inference if he tries to plead the 5th, admissions that he shilled and cheated people -- I think the right jury might get irritated with that sort of stuff. We assert fraud in many of our cases, and I don't really think most juries distinguish, or even care, about the difference between clear and convincing and preponderance of the evidence. At least that's my experience.

If the conduct is bad, I really don't worry that much about damages. It's kind of like pleading punis. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of that because it causes you extra work and if the jury is mad enough to award them, I have always believed that they will find a place to stick them even if you don't ask for them. I'd throw out the number paid for whatever items the client bought, maybe show what they had sold for before, and fight about whether I had to quantify the non-economic stuff. I have only lost that once, and even then the judge said the number wouldn't come in when we tried the case. It settled, so I don't know if the judge would have stuck to his guns.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh you would get discovery of course, it was just a hypothetical about the current state of play and whether it's enough to conclude one was defrauded. I guess with my defense bias I think it's a bit speculative based on the current record but you make a good argument, as always.

[atx840]

This is some seriously sleazy stuff to read.....to me 10 years sound about right.

http://i.imgur.com/smfrSwd.png

http://i.imgur.com/c7NvYLX.png

http://i.imgur.com/EwNcpKb.png

[ullmandds]

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, the email to the consignor about hitting it one more time and letting it go has been discussed here before.

[calvindog]

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

[Rob D.]

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

Sounds like someone needs a free dinner at the National to get his mind right. Go ahead, order the creme brulee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

Or post #1,000,000 about a Wagner reprint on ebay. :rolleyes:

[ullmandds]

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

whatever!!!

[hcv123]

Thanks for bringing it to light. Sent my letter off today.

[bnorth]

How the heck did that T206 Plank even pass the authenticating company with an altered back? Was that PSA? Shouldn't they be held responsible in some way? Apparently they didn't do there job or even know what there doing. Or were they in bed together? Boy alot of questions need to be answered.

You would be suprised how easy it is for even a half assed card doctor to get stuff by ANY of the grading companies. THey are not highly paid experts. They are there to make the grading company $ by grading cards as fast and accurately as posible.

[barrysloate]

You would be suprised how easy it is for even a half assed card doctor to get stuff by ANY of the grading companies. THey are not highly paid experts. They are there to make the grading company $ by grading cards as fast and accurately as posible.

And yet collectors are still willing to pay astronomical amounts of money for high grade cards based solely on the assessment of the TPG. Why is that?

[bnorth]

And yet collectors are still willing to pay astronomical amounts of money for high grade cards based solely on the assessment of the TPG. Why is that?


The grading companies give the buyer a false sence of security that their card in not altered/counterfiet. That is if the slab is even real and not counterfiet. JMHO

[Peter_Spaeth]

The grading companies give the buyer a false sence of security that their card in not altered/counterfiet. That is if the slab is even real and not counterfiet. JMHO

Some are naïve, others willfully blind.

[tbob]

Jeff- I'm sorry I haven't been following this more closely but I've taken a brief hiatus from the Board. Has the Pre-Sentence Screening Report come back in his case but the US Attorney is offering a 5k so a downward variance/departure can be obtained and he is recommending 30 months? As we both know, it is still up to the judge whether or not the 5k for substantial assistance to the US Atty's office (i.e. "rolling over" and "ratting") will be accepted. It just seems like 30 months for the number of people allegedly scammed (including, possible, your's truly because I bid on a number of card lots in his auctions over the years) is awfully light. Just saying...
Bob

[calvindog]

Jeff- I'm sorry I haven't been following this more closely but I've taken a brief hiatus from the Board. Has the Pre-Sentence Screening Report come back in his case but the US Attorney is offering a 5k so a downward variance/departure can be obtained and he is recommending 30 months? As we both know, it is still up to the judge whether or not the 5k for substantial assistance to the US Atty's office (i.e. "rolling over" and "ratting") will be accepted. It just seems like 30 months for the number of people allegedly scammed (including, possible, your's truly because I bid on a number of card lots in his auctions over the years) is awfully light. Just saying...
Bob

With his 5K1, Mastro will be getting a recommendation of under 30 months from the government with zero restitution and zero forfeiture for his crimes.

His enablers will be doing a bit better.

[Sophiedog]

Can he go back into the auction business or is he banned?

[calvindog]

Can he go back into the auction business or is he banned?

There's nothing in his cooperation agreement which suggests he's not permitted back into the hobby.

[calvindog]

Leon, a mutual friend of ours who carries a gun asked me to post your comments about Mastro from October 2013:

"Even though I have considered Bill a hobby friend, and understand I was shill bid, I didn't have the amount of disrespect towards him which I do now, until I read his statement. That statement accepts no responsibility of his misdeeds. He caused his own problems, no one else. He really needs to accept responsibility for his actions. I find his statement disgusting. There were 2 letters? I can guarantee there will be at least 3 by the end of the day today."

21 months later we're still waiting for your letter.

[Kenny Cole]

I sent mine today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There's nothing in his cooperation agreement which suggests he's not permitted back into the hobby.

One would think he would move on; but then again it's what he knows and loves.

[1880nonsports]

:-)

[uffda51]

I sent a letter to the judge last August. I sent another one yesterday. FWIW.

[ksabet]

And 2.



I think the biggest crime for you is that no one has informed you to stop using a Windows machine and Internet Explorer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the biggest crime for you is that no one has informed you to stop using a Windows machine and Internet Explorer.

Old school and stubborn.:)

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I've been away for the past week - so sorry joining in late.

My two cents is that there was likely a wide scale scheme to defraud for quite a long period of time in various capacities. The most egregious was knowingly selling fake memorabilia - such as the phony Elvis hair or the 1869 Redlegs baseball. Next, and nearly as egregious was selling doctored cards. And yes there was the shill bidding - which is fraud.

To me, the selling of the fake and doctored items is the fraud that keeps on giving since those items will at some point and time will be or have been re-sold and this is the stuff that needs to be sought out and removed and the buyers need to be compensated. I'm not trying to minimize shill bidding, but it's obviously next to impossible to prove if all or most of the evidence has been destroyed and the damages amount to just some percentage of the item purchased (typically 10% to 30%).

[Leon]

Leon, a mutual friend of ours who carries a gun asked me to post this from October 2013:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1193880&postcount=7

... from this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=177079&highlight=widespread

no comment same result :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've been away for the past week - so sorry joining in late.

My two cents is that there was likely a wide scale scheme to defraud for quite a long period of time in various capacities. The most egregious was knowingly selling fake memorabilia - such as the phony Elvis hair or the 1869 Redlegs baseball. Next, and nearly as egregious was selling doctored cards. And yes there was the shill bidding - which is fraud.

To me, the selling of the fake and doctored items is the fraud that keeps on giving since those items will at some point and time will be or have been re-sold and this is the stuff that needs to be sought out and removed and the buyers need to be compensated. I'm not trying to minimize shill bidding, but it's obviously next to impossible to prove if all or most of the evidence has been destroyed and the damages amount to just some percentage of the item purchased (typically 10% to 30%).

It seems we have a reasonable sense of the extent of the shill bidding from the Mastro plea agreement, but no information if the card altering bombshell in the Allen plea agreement was a one off thing (I doubt it) or just the tip of the iceberg and part of a regular practice.

[calvindog]

no comment same result :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlV3oQ3pLA0

[BeanTown]

My hunch is they used house accounts to bid up lots to hidden reserves agreed to with consignors. Im sure that was common practice for Mastro and its employees was to give false promises or kickbacks to land high end consignments back in the day. Consignors I imagine, did not read the fine print or terms and conditions with the auction and took them for their word since they sell millions each year.

Back when Mastro was was the premire auction company, reserves were rarely seen or advertised. It was not "industry standards" As few auction companies just started out lots at higher amounts. Mastro liked to start out lots lower letting the "market set the price". I have won probally more than 100 lots between both Mastro and Legendary.

I can only imagine who the under bidder was on all my lots won.

I would think that former Mastro/Legendary consignors would be upset if they were told one thing and then it played out differently. Another form of fraud thats never discussed. I imagine that contracts disapeared too along with the bidding history is my guess.

I will end this with a silver lining that no matter what I won, that chances are very good that my investment has risen in value. Look at how well the card market as a whole has done over the last 15 years. Im sure Ive been bumped or pushed higher by auctions houses, and it stinks to think about it... But, I was still willing to Bid the winning amount and when the card(s) came in, I was glad I did.

Letter will be written soon even though my story has been told.

[autograf]

Lichtman....party of one.....now seating......

[slidekellyslide]

My hunch is they used house accounts to bid up lots to hidden reserves agreed to with consignors. Im sure that was common practice for Mastro and its employees was to give false promises or kickbacks to land high end consignments back in the day. Consignors I imagine, did not read the fine print or terms and conditions with the auction and took them for their word since they sell millions each year.

Back when Mastro was was the premire auction company, reserves were rarely seen or advertised. It was not "industry standards" As few auction companies just started out lots at higher amounts. Mastro liked to start out lots lower letting the "market set the price". I have won probally more than 100 lots between both Mastro and Legendary.

I can only imagine who the under bidder was on all my lots won.

I would think that former Mastro/Legendary consignors would be upset if they were told one thing and then it played out differently. Another form of fraud thats never discussed. I imagine that contracts disapeared too along with the bidding history is my guess.

I will end this with a silver lining that no matter what I won, that chances are very good that my investment has risen in value. Look at how well the card market as a whole has done over the last 15 years. Im sure Ive been bumped or pushed higher by auctions houses, and it stinks to think about it... But, I was still willing to Bid the winning amount and when the card(s) came in, I was glad I did.

Letter will be written soon even though my story has been told.


Check me if I'm wrong, but "Hit it again?" was a question directly asked to YOU was it not?

Is this letter going to be a positive one?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Check me if I'm wrong, but "Hit it again?" was a question directly asked to YOU was it not?

Is this letter going to be a positive one?

This post was with the bidder hat on.:eek:

[calvindog]

Check me if I'm wrong, but "Hit it again?" was a question directly asked to YOU was it not?

Is this letter going to be a positive one?

According to the government, the indictment and Mastro, JC was a co-conspirator. Technically, I suppose he could also have been a victim on items he bid on. That being said, a letter from JC to the court about Mastro will probably be met with ridicule or stunned silence. Which is why so many hobby leaders and Net 54 senior members are silent when discussions of Mastro's fraud arise. A misspelled word in a post, a discussion about a dinner -- that they'll chime in on. Mastro fraud? Nope, they need to sit that one out in order to not take the chance of their involvement being exposed.

[BeanTown]

This post was with the bidder hat on.:eek:


Most likely it was Doug trying to get the consigner to take less money than what the agreed upon reserve was!!! Mastro only got paid when stuff sold. Maybe the consigner said NO WAY and the card was returned to him.

[Rob D.]

Which is why so many hobby leaders and Net 54 senior members are silent when discussions of Mastro's fraud arise. A misspelled word in a post, a discussion about a dinner -- that they'll chime in on. Mastro fraud? Nope, they need to sit that one out in order to not take the chance of their involvement being exposed.

Your name, please?

[wonkaticket]

I'm just getting around to reading this thread. Disappointed and shocked not surprised by the justice system on this.

I could go on for hours about these guys Mastro, Allen etc. bottom line is they are crooks and con men. They may be like able crooks but still crooks.

How pathetic to send gifts to key people. I would be insulted to get such a gift and I could never really enjoy it knowing it came at the expense of so many collectors. Let alone is nothing more than a shallow attempt to bribe away past deeds. Sorry not giving up my integrity or land for some shiny beads from a trickster. Better be one hell of gift these guys got.

Leon as for you and your letter being public and Nash dragging or twisting who cares. The guy will be weaving stories and yarns till he drops dead. He tried that crap with me the best he could come up with was a picture and calling me a "Lifson fanboy" and using a calculator to add up my posted shared net54 REA winnings...and he even screwed that up. Bottom line if you're above board and have no hobby skeletons what could he possibly say or twist that's my view. At least Elkins was creative.

To those who think why write a letter who cares, it's not gonna help. You're wrong. While Mastro, Allen and gang played their games we all paid the price. While you may not have been directly shilled or perhaps you were and don't know I can promise you one thing. If you collect today or have bought any item hobby related you were affected. By raising prices thru games such as shilling, fake sales etc. all prices in the hobby went up because of historical past sales which in effect were not real. That unfortunately for us all cost the items we collect to be more expensive.

This is no different than some oil companies manipulating the cost of crude, or banking institutions messing with rates and loans. It all costs us more at the pump and our house values to be affected.

So Bill if you're reading this please send me a gift so I can send back with a copy of my letter. You may feel bad you may not don't really care. You did the crime so pay up. But if I were you I wouldn't worry to much you have one thing going for you. Countless lazy, naive and not so honest collectors who will once again turn a blind eye and then piss and moan about it later.

If you feel Bill is an ok guy you're either really naive or there's something else going on. That's my two cents.

Cheers,

John

[slidekellyslide]

Most likely it was Doug trying to get the consigner to take less money than what the agreed upon reserve was!!! Mastro only got paid when stuff sold. Maybe the consigner said NO WAY and the card was returned to him.

"Most likely"??? Do you have insider info?

[1880nonsports]

don't you have inside information?

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Most likely"??? Do you have insider info?

Strange post by JC, indeed. Most peculiar, mama.

[jcmtiger]

Lethal injection and/or restitution!

Yes hang anyone who commits a crime. I had a neighbor who killed his wife by slamming her ahead against a pole in the basement and stored her body in a freezer for 3 years. . He spent 7 years in jail. Is that enough, I don't think so, so I don't think Mastro needs a harsher sentence just because we collect cards. Think about it.


Joe

[wonkaticket]

Hmmm so because he didn't kill and store a woman in a freezer, collectors/victims shouldn't expect more in terms of a sentence for his crimes.

Here's what I'll "think about" what possible medications you must have forgot to take to type the above.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hmmm so because he didn't kill and store a woman in a freezer, collectors/victims shouldn't expect more in terms of a sentence for his crimes.

Here's what I'll "think about" what possible medications you must have forgot to take to type the above.

.

[calvindog]

Yes hang anyone who commits a crime. I had a neighbor who killed his wife by slamming her ahead against a pole in the basement and stored her body in a freezer for 3 years. . He spent 7 years in jail. Is that enough, I don't think so, so I don't think Mastro needs a harsher sentence just because we collect cards. Think about it.


Joe

Some thoughts:

1) there's a happy medium in between a life sentence and a few months in prison with no restitution paid to his victims and his claim, on the very day he pleaded guilty, that his victims were unfairly critical of him.

2) Probably time to move.

3) Um, you didn't receive a gift from Bill, did you?

[Leon]

Some thoughts:

1) there's a happy medium in between a life sentence and a few months in prison with no restitution paid to his victims and his claim, on the very day he pleaded guilty, that his victims were unfairly critical of him.

2) Probably time to move.

3) Um, you didn't receive a gift from Bill, did you?

It's good you aren't under oath or I might have believed everything you have said in this thread.

[calvindog]

It's good you aren't under oath or I might have believed everything you have said in this thread.

I'm a lawyer and not a criminal defendant who had to take an oath prior to pleading guilty. There's a difference.

[Leon]

I'm a lawyer and not a criminal defendant who had to take an oath prior to pleading guilty.

You are a bold faced liar too.

[calvindog]

You are a bold faced liar too.

Hey, don't blame me for holding up a mirror to your face and forcing you to eat your own words. You complain about fraud in the hobby and yet when push comes to shove you've defended Mastro and Allen for years. For years. There's not a single word I've ever said about Mastro or Allen that is not the truth and we both know it.

[Leon]

Hey, don't blame me for holding up a mirror to your face and forcing you to eat your own words. You complain about fraud in the hobby and yet when push comes to shove you've defended Mastro and Allen for years. For years. There's not a single word I've ever said about Mastro or Allen that is not the truth and we both know it.

I* am going to leave it alone Jeff. I am not defending anyone. I wasn't writing a letter before your badgering of me, or after the few trinkets given to me (which I won't have anymore after today). Nothing swayed me ..... I have confidence in the judge making a good decision. I am sorry you don't.

And absolutely both of those guys will get what's coming to them. Restitution should have been a part of each plea...for that part I think it was unfair.

and lastly, your quoting me is not a big deal. I WAS going to write a letter at one time but changed my mind due to several factors, not just Nash....I hope I am allowed to change my mind?

[calvindog]

I* am going to leave it alone Jeff. I am not defending anyone. I wasn't writing a letter before your badgering of me, or after the few trinkets given to me (which I won't have anymore after today). Nothing swayed me ..... I have confidence in the judge making a good decision. I am sorry you don't.

I have tremendous confidence in the judge making the right decision. But we as victims -- yes, you're a victim -- can submit information to the judge so that he has a better understanding of who Bill Mastro is. The judge doesn't know Mastro and Allen the way his victims do. We complain on Net 54 constantly about being defrauded, here's the one chance we all have to be heard and put our money where our mouths are.

[Leon]

I venture to guess I do more than 99.9% of the people in the hobby (you are right there too) to weed out fraud. I can't stand it. Not sure if you have ever seen where I have said, "if you are doing something bad in the hobby I will be your worst friend", but I have said it many times. I have helped numerous authorities to work fraud cases in the hobby....Secret Service, Dept. Of Homeland Security, Postal Agents, Postal Inspectors, local authorities etc.....for various reasons I am not writing this one letter.....that is it.

I have tremendous confidence in the judge making the right decision. But we as victims -- yes, you're a victim -- can submit information to the judge so that he has a better understanding of who Bill Mastro is. The judge doesn't know Mastro and Allen the way his victims do. We complain on Net 54 constantly about being defrauded, here's the one chance we all have to be heard and put our money where our mouths are.

[calvindog]

I venture to guess I do more than 99.9% of the people in the hobby (you are right there too) to weed out fraud. I can't stand it. Not sure if you have ever seen where I have said, "if you are doing something bad in the hobby I will be your worst friend", but I have said it many times. I have helped numerous authorities to work fraud cases in the hobby....Secret Service, Dept. Of Homeland Security, Postal Agents, Postal Inspectors, local authorities etc.....for various reasons I am not writing this one letter.....that is it.

Leon, you received a gift from the biggest fraud the hobby has ever known and you said it "was appreciated." And you made it clear on this thread that you were considering writing a letter in SUPPORT of Mastro. Doesn't sound like you're quite his "worst friend."

[Leon]

Leon, you received a gift from the biggest fraud the hobby has ever known and you said it "was appreciated." And you made it clear on this thread that you were considering writing a letter in SUPPORT of Mastro. Doesn't sound like you're quite his "worst friend."

As I said, I changed my mind. I suppose people can do that, right? I probably am not his worst friend. Maybe you are? I can't stand what he did but I can also separate what someone does from who they are. Those guys will pay for what they did. My letter, one way or the other, isn't going to change the plea deals. Did you write a letter?

And yes, I said it was appreciated but in retrospect, maybe not so much. That is why after today the few little things he sent I will no longer have.

[calvindog]

As I said, I changed my mind. I suppose people can do that, right? I probably am not his worst friend. Maybe you are? I can't stand what he did but I can also separate what someone does from who they are. Those guys will pay for what they did. My letter, one way or the other, isn't going to change the plea deals. Did you write a letter?

And yes, I said it was appreciated but in retrospect, maybe not so much. That is why after today the few little things he sent I will no longer have.

Of course I'm writing a letter. And no one has ever said that writing a letter will change their plea deals. Where did you get that from? The judge has discretion at sentencing and many factors come into play including character letters about the defendant. You can be sure Bill will have dozens if not hundreds of letter supporting him and not discussing his fraud.

Lastly, of course people can change their minds. I've always appreciated how you changed your mind about Mike O'Keeffe, the NY Daily News reporter who you and others blasted for his purportedly unfair coverage of the Mastro fraud. And how you changed your mind about me after we bickered constantly out here years ago when I was loudly critical of Mastro and Allen -- and I was being roundly criticized for it.

And lastly, I'm not Bill Mastro's worst friend -- I was never his friend at all. Just his victim.

[Leon]

Of course I'm writing a letter. And no one has ever said that writing a letter will change their plea deals. Where did you get that from? The judge has discretion at sentencing and many factors come into play including character letters about the defendant. You can be sure Bill will have dozens if not hundreds of letter supporting him and not discussing his fraud.

Lastly, of course people can change their minds. I've always appreciated how you changed your mind about Mike O'Keeffe, the NY Daily News reporter who you and others blasted for his purportedly unfair coverage of the Mastro fraud. And how you changed your mind about me after we bickered constantly out here years ago when I was loudly critical of Mastro and Allen -- and I was being roundly criticized for it.

And lastly, I'm not Bill Mastro's worst friend -- I was never his friend at all. Just his victim.

and I always appreciate how half your clients are card doctors...but then that is how you make your money. The more bad people in the hobby the more you make. Do you give out business cards after these threads? Since I haven't done anything wrong in the hobby I guess I don't need a business card.

[calvindog]

and I always appreciate how half your clients are card doctors...but then that is how you make your money. The more bad people in the hobby the more you make. Do you give out business cards after these threads? Since I haven't done anything wrong in the hobby I guess I don't need a business card.

How do you know that my clients haven't all cooperated with law enforcement in their investigation of fraud in the hobby? Certainly it's public record that I have represented people who have actually formally cooperated against fraudsters in the hobby.

As for me representing people in the hobby, it's a tiny fraction of my income. Half my clients? You're dreaming. And maybe you shouldn't be critical of what I do for a living because when you were shitting your pants last year you managed to pick up the phone and call me for free advice.

[autograf]

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qHylYskXWEU/VaPUJ3mvGOI/AAAAAAAAtb8/luFjxTLv9K8/s800-Ic42/a.gif

[Leon]

Maybe they all cooperated, I don't know.....great if they did. Half might have been too big of a number as you are right, I don't know all of your clients, only some of them. You are a good lawyer, I will give you that.

How do you know that my clients haven't all cooperated with law enforcement in their investigation of fraud in the hobby? Certainly it's public record that I have represented people who have actually formally cooperated against fraudsters in the hobby.

As for me representing people in the hobby, it's a tiny fraction of my income. Half my clients? You're dreaming. And maybe you shouldn't be critical of what I do for a living because when you were shitting your pants last year you managed to pick up the phone and call me for advice.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That people may have cooperated does not mean they themselves did not commit fraud, does it?

[calvindog]

That people may have cooperated does not mean they themselves did not commit fraud, does it?

Of course not. But are you suggesting that if I represented someone who committed a prior fraud but then cooperated with the government that I'm enabling their past fraud? Or am I in fact doing quite the opposite, helping to put an end to fraud?

Here's what I never did: shill bid on my friends' Mastro lots and then communicated with the Mastro folks about sending the lots I won back to the consignor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You protest too much, who suggested anything about enablement of past fraud? I was merely pointing out that cooperating with the government doesn't mean people are necessarily honorable, which seemed implicit in your response to Leon.

[bnorth]

That people may have cooperated does not mean they themselves did not commit fraud, does it?

Cooperation is what I hate worst about our legal system. If someone is a complete piece of garbage they can get a plea deal for screwing over others(usually friends). Yes the others did something wrong also and should be punished but the piece of garbage that turned them in to get the plea deal should get the pleasure of being the play toy in prison.

[Joshchisox08]

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qHylYskXWEU/VaPUJ3mvGOI/AAAAAAAAtb8/luFjxTLv9K8/s800-Ic42/a.gif

+1

What did I walk into ??? :eek:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Cooperation is what I hate worst about our legal system. If someone is a complete piece of garbage they can get a plea deal for screwing over others(usually friends). Yes the others did something wrong also and should be punished but the piece of garbage that turned them in to get the plea deal should get the pleasure of being the play toy in prison.

They might also get immunity. But that is, for better or worse, a judgment call prosecutors sometimes need to make. I don't have a quarrel with that, in the abstract.

[calvindog]

You protest too much, who suggested anything about enablement of past fraud? I was merely pointing out that cooperating with the government doesn't mean people are necessarily honorable, which seemed implicit in your response to Leon.

I'm not protesting too much at all. He clearly claimed that I represent card doctors as half my practice (false -- hobby fraud is about 1 percent of my practice) and that the more bad people in the hobby, the more money I make, suggesting that I'm an enabler of fraud. Maybe I'm not quite the right guy to go after as being a fraud profiteer in this hobby. Just a thought.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So what percentage is it? :D

[Leon]

I disagree. I think we need to keep talking about what you do and who you do it for Jeff. I think I can name at least 5 of your clients. Shall I?

I'm not protesting too much at all. He clearly claimed that I represent card doctors as half my practice (false -- hobby fraud is about 1 percent of my practice) and that the more bad people in the hobby, the more money I make, suggesting that I'm an enabler of fraud. Maybe I'm not quite the right guy to go after as being a fraud profiteer in this hobby. Just a thought.

[calvindog]

I disagree. I think we need to keep talking about what you do and who you do it for Jeff. I think I can name at least 5 of your clients. Shall I?

Sure and would you mind if I discuss what you called me for last year? Because you would be on my roster.

[Leon]

I won't name names as that would be even more uncool than you have been to me.
Lets just say many on this board find you very hypocritical. As I said, I think you are a good lawyer and that is why I called you. But your incessant badgering of me is quite over the top. Keep leading the charge but leave me out of it on this case. These guys will get their just dues, I am very confident.

Sure and would you mind if I discuss what you called me for last year? Because you would be on my roster.

[calvindog]

I won't name names as that would be even more uncool than you have been to me.
Lets just say many on this board find you very hypocritical. As I said, I think you are a good lawyer and that is why I called you. But your incessant badgering of me is quite over the top. Keep leading the charge but leave me out of it on this case. These guys will get their just dues, I am very confident.

The truth is I honestly don't care if many on this board find me hypocritical. Being a defense lawyer means you occasionally offend -- I don't care. I have ethical and legal obligations when I represent clients which are not always completely understood or appreciated by people. And I can say the same about you. I suspect if you knew how many people on Net 54 find you to be very hypocritical your jaw would drop -- and none of them are vile pr*cks.

[Leon]

I make many unpopular decisions, comes with the territory. I am sure there are quite a few on this board who don't care for me. With over 6500 registered members there are a lot of opinions. I respect their right to not like me or think I am hypocritical. It's America.

The truth is I honestly don't care if many on this board find me hypocritical. Being a defense lawyer means you occasionally offend -- I don't care. And I can say the same about you. I suspect if you knew how many people on Net 54 find you to be very hypocritical your jaw would drop.

[calvindog]

I respect their right to not like me or think I am hypocritical. It's America.

See? All these years later and we agree on something. :)

[Leon]

Is it time for lunch yet?

See? All these years later and we agree on something. :)

[calvindog]

Is it time for lunch yet?

22 more minutes. I've become a vegetarian in the last 10 days and am constantly hungry.

[Leon]

You have to have meat in your diet. We didn't get to the top of the food chain by eating carrots.

22 more minutes. I've become a vegetarian in the last 10 days and am constantly hungry.

[calvindog]

You have to have meat in your diet. We didn't get to the top of the food chain by eating carrots.

Yes but eating it for 912 days in a row is apparently frowned upon by the AMA. Time to go the other way.

[frankbmd]

Yes but eating it for 912 days in a row is apparently frowned upon by the AMA. Time to go the other way.

Please, don't drag me into this until I finish my cheeseburger.

[autograf]

So the rest of us are okay to go to lunch and not miss any of this brouhaha.....? Meat or otherwise?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Please, don't drag me into this until I finish my cheeseburger.

How did a real doctor get mixed up in a discussion about card doctors?

[Joshchisox08]

Please, don't drag me into this until I finish my cheeseburger.

Can I have a bite ?

[BengoughingForAwhile]

How did a real doctor get mixed up in a discussion about card doctors?

Frank doesn't trim cards, he just trims cardboard to go around the cards. :eek:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Frank doesn't trim cards, he just trims cardboard to go around the cards. :eek:

He probably won't need a lawyer then. :rolleyes:

[Bicem]

Writing letter now. There's really no legit excuse not to in my opinion.

[wonkaticket]

Leon,

I have to side a bit with Jeff on this one. For years you and others have been on here defending Mastro & Allen on a personal level or from the likes of O'Keefe and others who have been critical of these guys.

Each and every time you have kicked the can down the road...if they get caught I'll change my mind, if they get found guilty I'll change my mind then I'll write that letter no excuse for crime etc. Now it's I got a nice gift from Bill unexpected and appreciated, but now you've changed your tune on that and it's I'm it sending back. Hopefully to Bill not to Heritage as an internet only lot (kidding). :)

Look I get what it may be like to have a friend turn out to be a con man it has to be hard to wrestle with that torn feeling. However all that aside if you do really stand for what you say....then all bets should be off.

Here's what's disappointing to me about your stance. I'm going to be direct with you as most on here won't because they view you as some hobby god, or from fear of getting the boot. You call Jeff a hypocrite but be careful you may be just as guilty of hypocrisy as him.

You preach about ethics and fraud, yet take and publicize a gift from one of the biggest frauds the hobby has ever known. Sort of like blasting evil dictators then grabbing dinner and show with Stalin and posting selfies.

You beat up on folks for pimping their auctions/items but you not so much. You want people's names in their posts so they are on record for their statements. Yet in the Saco River thread after you jumped the gun and said some nasty things you locked and hid the thread.Then there's the whole Peck & Snyder card mess that's traveling the hobby rumor circles of you potentially having a card connected to Mastro that may have been stolen from the NYPL. Are you aware of this? If so I haven't seen you say much about that on here? Seems to me for a guy who is doing 99.9% more than others to clean up the hobby you would want to address or dispel any doubt to your items validity if there's any truth to the rumors. I know I would want the air cleared. My point Leon is these things could also be viewed as hypocrisy not to beat you up.

At the end of the day your choice write a letter or not nobody can make you it's your decision I respect that. But I do have to wonder why someone as outspoken and as passionate about this hobby would choose to be silent on something so important.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Leon if you don't write a letter you should at least have to give back your FBI windbreaker. :)

[Leon]

John- just like everyone, you have a right to your opinion. There is nothing you have said that I am not aware of. The Peck and Snyder card has been examined and no mark is discernible. Just like it says in the description.

"There is surface marring or erasure on the back in the same upper quadrant. This could be a library stamp, a collector stamp or the mark of some retailer."

It has been examined and whatever was erased can't be made out with any known equipment today. It has been tested. I only know where I got it and have an invoice for it. If you know more please let us know. I know the provenance of it for the last 25 yrs and that is all.

Leon,

I have to side a bit with Jeff on this one. For years you and others have been on here defending Mastro & Allen on a personal level or from the likes of O'Keefe and others who have been critical of these guys.

Each and every time you have kicked the can down the road...if they get caught I'll change my mind, if they get found guilty I'll change my mind then I'll write that letter no excuse for crime etc. Now it's I got a nice gift from Bill unexpected and appreciated, but now you've changed your tune on that and it's I'm it sending back. Hopefully to Bill not to Heritage as an internet only lot (kidding). :)

Look I get what it may be like to have a friend turn out to be a con man it has to be hard to wrestle with that torn feeling. However all that aside if you do really stand for what you say....then all bets should be off.

Here's what's disappointing to me about your stance. I'm going to be direct with you as most on here won't because they view you as some hobby god, or from fear of getting the boot. You call Jeff a hypocrite but be careful you may be just as guilty of hypocrisy as him.

You preach about ethics and fraud, yet take and publicize a gift from one of the biggest frauds the hobby has ever known. Sort of like blasting evil dictators then grabbing dinner and show with Stalin and posting selfies.

You beat up on folks for pimping their auctions/items but you not so much. You want people's names in their posts so they are on record for their statements. Yet in the Saco River thread after you jumped the gun and said some nasty things you locked and hid the thread.Then there's the whole Peck & Snyder card mess that's traveling the hobby rumor circles of you potentially having a card connected to Mastro that may have been stolen from the NYPL. Are you aware of this? If so I haven't seen you say much about that on here? Seems to me for a guy who is doing 99.9% more than others to clean up the hobby you would want to address or dispel any doubt to your items validity if there's any truth to the rumors. I know I would want the air cleared. My point Leon is these things could also be viewed as hypocrisy not to beat you up.

At the end of the day your choice write a letter or not nobody can make you it's your decision I respect that. But I do have to wonder why someone as outspoken and as passionate about this hobby would choose to be silent on something so important.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Leon if you don't write a letter you should at least have to give back your FBI windbreaker. :)

[calvindog]

We're all famous!

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=39278

[wonkaticket]

"There is surface marring or erasure on the back in the same upper quadrant. This could be a library stamp, a collector stamp or the mark of some retailer."

Forgive me Leon. Perhaps I'm reading into things but why would Heritage go out of their way to mention "library mark" as the first possible option for the removed blemish on the back of this card? Especially for a card that you say has past the scrutiny of review by whom I assume to be the proper authorities. :confused:

I would guess I may have a few cards that would have what an auction company may describe as "unidentifiable blemishes" but I wouldn't expect "library mark" as the first possible speculation. Only reason why I can think of is. If I were aware or the auction company was aware the item in question had potential issues. Otherwise why speculate?

Anyways enough about this card, my posts were more to say lots of things can be viewed as hypocrisy. Also your silence and back and forth support of these guys is troubling and confusing to me. However as said its my opinion and your entitled to do as you see fit. I may question the motives but I can reset your decision.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

We're all famous!

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=39278

Ughhhh....

[atx840]

It has been examined and whatever was erased can't be made out with any known equipment today.

Let's figure it out.

Definitely erased, oval in shape and I believe the word library.

http://i.imgur.com/9TJiQTi.gif

[Leon]

I have to speak to Heritage for approval but we will get it pulled until we get it all sorted out. And for the record I have never seen anything like that overlay copy before. Had I seen it displayed like that the card wouldn't be in the auction...at least until it was given a clean bill of health. That is why it was in there until now.

[conor912]

Not good

[bnorth]

We're all famous!

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=39278

To bad Peter Nash does not write about all the hardship he has caused this hobby.

That overlay does seem to match up perfectly. If it is really the Libraries card I hope they get it back.

This is the part of the law I do not get. Mastro stole insane amounts of money and might get up to 30 months. Then you have a guy that sells a 1/4 ounce of weed to someone and gets more jail time that the guy that done millions of dollars of damage.:confused:

[wonkaticket]

I have to speak to Heritage for approval but we will get it pulled until we get it all sorted out. And for the record I have never seen anything like that overlay copy before. Had I seen it displayed like that the card wouldn't be in the auction...at least until it was given a clean bill of health. That is why it was in there until now.

Com'on Leon really?

Man I hate this but I almost have to give Nash credit here. You're on Jerry's video talking to Scott about the FBI taking your card for review as possibly being stolen from the NYPL. It's then returned to you and what they said nothing? Just tossed it on your table with no input or feedback.

No that can't be the case because you just said above it passed the review and you know all about the cards 25 year history...now this is all new to you? You never have seen this spot?

Hell not long ago there was noise of a stolen Delahanty photo from the Detroit Public Library. There were no details but having just bought a Delahanty photo from Legendary, within minutes I had done the following. Contacted Doug made him aware asked for the photos history, contacted the Feds to get info and made plans if it was stolen to work with DPL to return. In the end it was all good not my photo mine came from a known collectors collection and wasn't even the photo in question. I even updated folks here for added measure.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=203147

My point in 30 mins I knew all there was to be known about my item having a brief but uncalled for scare from a single newspaper article. You're telling me federal agents ask to see your item and return it and you never gave it a second thought or review. Yet the auction description clearly says this was on somebody's mind. You're either the most laid back "laissez faire" guy in the world. Or this is a bit of hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil pass the hot potato.

If you are innocent and did get duped, and this is stolen. I'd make sure my next gift from Bill was a check. I also wonder if that is the case does your view on a letter now change being a possible victim?

Cheers,

John

[Leon]

To bad Peter Nash does not write about all the hardship he has caused this hobby.

That overlay does seem to match up perfectly. If it is really the Libraries card I hope they get it back.

This is the part of the law I do not get. Mastro stole insane amounts of money and might get up to 30 months. Then you have a guy that sells a 1/4 ounce of weed to someone and gets more jail time that the guy that done millions of dollars of damage.:confused:

If it is proven it was stolen from the library, and they ask for it back, I will give it back to them free and clear. I have a call into the Library now. I have spoken with Heritage and we will pull the card if need be, no worries. We never wanted to sell a card without a clean bill of health. Unless you are a fraudulent person, as Peter Nash is, you wouldn't want to do that.

And John, you can spin this any way you want to but there is not one iota of anything I did wrong. I said I couldn't talk about some things. Everything I have heard and seen until today said the card was fine. If you don't believe me that is your call.

And not that I need to answer the question about the letter, doesn't change my view one bit.

[wonkaticket]

To bad Peter Nash does not write about all the hardship he has caused this hobby.

+1 I've said the same thing many times.

[Jaybird]

If it is proven it was stolen from the library, and they ask for it back, I will give it back to them free and clear. I have a call into the Library now. I have spoken with Heritage and we will pull the card if need be, no worries. We never wanted to sell a card without a clean bill of health. Unless you are a fraudulent person, as Peter Nash is, you wouldn't want to do that.

And John, you can spin this any way you want to but there is not one iota of anything I did wrong. I said I couldn't talk about some things. Everything I have heard and seen until today said the card was fine. If you don't believe me that is your call.

And not that I need to answer the question about the letter, doesn't change my view one bit.

Changing your opinion based on new information is often the right thing to do.

[aaron1050]

Lastly, of course people can change their minds. I've always appreciated how you changed your mind about Mike O'Keeffe, the NY Daily News reporter who you and others blasted for his purportedly unfair coverage of the Mastro fraud. And how you changed your mind about me after we bickered constantly out here years ago when I was loudly critical of Mastro and Allen -- and I was being roundly criticized for it.

Hey, Leon even reached out and unbanned me! That's good mind-changing.

In all seriousness, I think he's shown real growth in the last seven or eight years in terms of his ability to acknowledge the mountain of evidence (and common sense) against the Mastro/Legendary guys as sufficient to conclude they were crooks, but at the same time he obviously hits the same wall of mental disconnect (separate a person from their actions?) that drove him to so ferociously defend those guys in the first place.

Part of it, I would imagine, is personal relationships and part of it may be some psychological reasons that we'll never understand that contribute to a sort of selective blind spot that causes him to make seemingly incompatible and completely contradictory conclusions while he tried to overlook or explain away or compartmentalize they're bad deeds. I will agree though that even after all of this, it's like one step forward two steps backward to see that Leon was actually considering writing a letter in support of Mastro. Growth yes, but that's just crazy at this point in time (these guys are convicts now!) and goes to the point that we will never understand the psychology here and what drives the reasoning for his need to absolve these guys.

As far as the appropriateness of the penalties, I'm assuming that Mastro was completely cooperative with the feds, and that should warrant some leniency, but I think 7-10 years would have been more appropriate, not 30 months. And understanding just how hard it would be to determine and then distribute a restitution figure, it still would have been appropriate to add a $3M - $5M flat figure as additional punishment.

Otherwise, I'm just happy that these guys were proven to be the frauds they are and so overwhelmingly so -- by federal convictions, plea deals, and real jail time. It should close the books on a very dark episode in the hobby's history when so many were the unknowing victims of significant fraud that undercut what was supposed to be a "hobby".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Where do you get 7-10 years? According to the plea agreement the maximum for the offense is 5, as I read it anyhow (page 16). And where do you get 3-5 million? The plea agreement indicates that the government estimates the total fraud as less than $I million (page 17).

[calvindog]

Where do you get 7-10 years? According to the plea agreement the maximum for the offense is 5, as I read it anyhow (page 16). And where do you get 3-5 million? The plea agreement indicates that the government estimates the total fraud as less than $I million (page 17).

If you read what he wrote he said what he felt was appropriate, not what was in the plea agreement. And his comment about $3-5 million was relating to a penalty -- a fine -- and not restitution.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you read what he wrote he said what he felt was appropriate, not what was in the plea agreement. And his comment about $3-5 million was relating to a penalty -- a fine -- and not restitution.

According to the plea agreement again, the maximum fine is twice the gross gain. And obviously I know how to read, my point is that "appropriate" has to be defined in terms of what the law provides.

[wonkaticket]

Leon. I'm spinning things unfairly huh? Let me get this straight.

Were you or were you not made aware by the Feds that this card could have been from the NYPL?

Were you or were you not discussing this card and it's possible NYPL/Mastro connection with Scott in the video?

After the Feds reviewed your card what was their determination? All clear etc.

Did you make any attempt after the card was returned to investigate the possible NYPL connection on your own prior to offering for sale? Keeping in mind it took Chris above about 30 seconds to raise serious doubts based off a few scans at a glance. If so what conclusion did you come to?

Why was the auction description so clear in listing "library stamp" as the very first thing the mark could be if this is all "new" news to you and was non-issue prior to being listed for sale?

Did you or did you not for years support Bill and Doug and just recently accept and paise gifts from Bill? Only to later after being told how hypocritical that was to announce the gifts return.

I'm not sure how I'm spinning anything I've brought up in this thread. Seems I've been pretty direct. Leon if this set of events above was directed at any other party you would be raising eyebrows also. Tell me you wouldn't.

Sorry but I fail to see a bigger grand picture here. It seems like the same story. Item with potential known issues is listed for sale along with a carefully worded description. Then when it's under the spotlight and questions come up the seller and auction are shocked and surprised they just weren't aware. Like I said the story never changes just the cast....happens to have youu as player this time that's all.

John

[calvindog]

According to the plea agreement again, the maximum fine is twice the gross gain. And obviously I know how to read, my point is that "appropriate" has to be defined in terms of what the law provides.

Let's split hairs for another week and ignore the 600 pound gorilla in the room. Regardless, the fine has a statutory max on what Mastro pleaded guilty to. Had he been required to plead to a different charge the fine could have been significantly bigger. Same with the maximum statutory period of incarceration. Had he been required to plead to a different charge he could have been facing 20 years and his guidelines significantly higher. Just because prosecutors reached a plea agreement does not suggest for a second that they believe the evidence of fraud is not more significant than what is in the agreement. That's just what they settled on to get rid of the case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes I understand all that but that's the world we are in, not your hypothetical one.

[Leon]

John
Keep spinning and I am not going to be a part of your charade. As I said I didn't do anything wrong. If you think I did, great. I didn't. I didn't have to bend over backwards to work with the authorities on this and am in the middle of getting it cleared up now (with their help). ...I won't respond to anymore of your drivel but will report back after the investigation is over. thanks

Leon. I'm spinning things unfairly huh? Let me get this straight.

Were you or were you not made aware by the Feds that this card could have been from the NYPL?

Were you or were you not discussing this card and it's possible NYPL/Mastro connection with Scott in the video?

After the Feds reviewed your card what was their determination? All clear etc.

Did you make any attempt after the card was returned to investigate the possible NYPL connection on your own prior to offering for sale? Keeping in mind it took Chris above about 30 seconds to raise serious doubts based off a few scans at a glance. If so what conclusion did you come to?

Why was the auction description so clear in listing "library stamp" as the very first thing the mark could be if this is all "new" news to you and was non-issue prior to being listed for sale?

Did you or did you not for years support Bill and Doug and just recently accept and paise gifts from Bill? Only to later after being told how hypocritical that was to announce the gifts return.

I'm not sure how I'm spinning anything I've brought up in this thread. Seems I've been pretty direct. Leon if this set of events above was directed at any other party you would be raising eyebrows also. Tell me you wouldn't.

Sorry but I fail to see a bigger grand picture here. It seems like the same story. Item with potential known issues is listed for sale along with a carefully worded description. Then when it's under the spotlight and questions come up the seller and auction are shocked and surprised they just weren't aware. Like I said the story never changes just the cast....happens to have youu as player this time that's all.

John

[calvindog]

Yes I understand all that but that's the world we are in, not your hypothetical one.

Yeah, my world is all hypothetical while you spin one contrarian fantasy after another which never results in anything concrete other than more blathering posts amounting to nothing.

[aaron1050]

According to the plea agreement again, the maximum fine is twice the gross gain. And obviously I know how to read, my point is that "appropriate" has to be defined in terms of what the law provides.

Why? I characterized what I felt would be appropriate punishments for Mastro and crew, not what would be appropriate per applicable sentencing guidelines.

Given the breadth and volume and time period of the fraud, it's brazen nature, and the lack of remorse expressed, my gut tells me 7-10 years and $3M to $5M would have been these guys getting "what they had coming" and an appropriate punishment.

As it is, they're going to jail for a decent amount of time so at least there's that. And at least there's no more real quibbling. Everyone knows these guys are convicted criminals who will do time. Considering where we were with the Mastro/Legendary guys in 2008, it's pretty incredible that we reached this point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Aaron we definitely agree on the bigger point.

[wonkaticket]

I'm not the one with a potentially stolen card for sale. I'm not the one claiming to do more than 99.9 % of people in this hobby in terms of fighting fraud. While conveniently failing to do basic due diligence on a major ticket item that had serious potential issues. Issues by the way that you were made aware of a year ago by federal authorities. I'm also not the one taking gifts and praising a known major hobby fraud for his generosity.

Like so many before you and so many more to come. I'm so proud of you for doing the right thing after it's made public and no longer under the carpet. May I strive to have your integrity one day. Make no mistake Leon the only spin and charade I see here is coming from the greater Texas area because it's always sunny in Philadelphia.

[Leon]

I'm not the one with a potentially stolen card for sale. I'm not the one claiming to do more than 99.9 % of people in this hobby in terms of fighting fraud. While conveniently failing to do basic due diligence on a major ticket item that had serious potential issues. Issues by the way that you were made aware of a year ago by federal authorities. I'm also not the one taking gifts and praising a known major hobby fraud for his generosity.

Like so many before you and so many more to come. I'm so proud of you for doing the right thing after it's made public and no longer under the carpet. May I strive to have your integrity one day. Make no mistake Leon the only spin and charade I see here is coming from the greater Texas area because it's always sunny in Philadelphia.


The issues I was made aware of a year ago had been cleared up in my mind. When I saw the new information today I took immediate action. What more do you want? Why this crusade? You are acting like an idiot. The authorities I spoke with today didn't indicate they had any issue whatsoever with me. I am good with that. I am sorry I don't live up to your high moral standards though. I will strive very hard though....

[Bicem]

So what's happening with the card?

[poorlydrawncat]

If it is proven it was stolen from the library, and they ask for it back, I will give it back to them free and clear.

Honestly Leon, of all the things you said, this is the one that really stands out to me as the most concerning, especially the way you phrased it.

"If they ask for it back...". Only if they ask for it to be returned? I find that an odd caveat to make, unless you are aware of the fact that public libraries in the past have not always been on top of recovering their stolen items, even when they've been proven to be stolen. Libraries have few resources and a lot of red tape to get through.

"If it's proven it's stolen..." What does that mean exactly? What burden of proof are you putting on this? Are you talking about legal proof? If the FBI tells you it's stolen?

As far as I'm concerned we have all the proof we need that the card was stolen, the only thing we don't have is "proof" from a court of law or government agency. If that's what you're talking about, then I think honestly you're just trying to find excuses not to give up the card. For instance, if I witness someone committing a murder, do i need to wait for a jury to decide if he's guilty before I do? Of course not, I can know something to be true even if legally it isn't acknowledged to be so.

In that spirit, let's look at the evidence. Here are the images that people are saying prove that the NY public library stamp was erased:

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/nypl-luckey-library-stamp.jpg

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/luckey-1869-PS-front-HA-2.jpg

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/NYPL-logo-2-lion-vs-luckey-ha-69-reds-effect.jpg

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/nypl-stamp-overlay-on-HA-69-reds-luckey.jpg

Ok so from what I can see the card has a bunch of red ink marks on the back. Oddly enough all the ink marks line up PERFECTLY with the NY public library stamp and match the color of the ink used. Oddly enough there are no red marks outside where the stamp would have made them. Also we know the NY public library has a rich history of items exactly like this one being stolen from its coffers.

The combination of these three facts alone makes the odds that these ink marks got there some other way astronomical, like 1 million to 1. And if someone took the time to erase the stamp and hide its true provenance, then the odds are nearly 100 percent that it's stolen.

So I don't get it Leon. Why not just say, "holy crap, you're right, I'm gonna make it right no matter what. Hell, I'll donate it back if that's what it takes!" Why are you putting so many conditions on the return? IF it's proven, IF they ask for it... You don't need to wait for someone to tell you, you and I know more about cards than any FBI agent or judge and we know that card was stolen regardless of whether it's legally acknowledged.

I don’t see how someone who truly was doing more than 99.9 percent of the hobby to combat fraud would be asking us to wait for another opinion or promising to return it on the condition that the library makes a formal request. Someone who was doing more that 99.9 percent of the hobby would donate it back to the library if that’s what it took to get it back in the right hands.

Right now the only thing that’s 99.9 percent is my certainty that the card was stolen.

EDIT: I'd like to apologize in advance if this comes off as too fiery. Want to add that I'm not saying Leon knew anything about the card or wouldn't take action to make sure it was handled the right way. Just pointing out my concerns about the way the issue is being discussed...

[wonkaticket]

It's not my standard Leon it's yours the rest of the 99.9% of us are just sitting on the sidelines while you fight the good fight remember. Luckily I'm not involved fraud or shady stuff because you would "be my worst enemy" or something like that.

I'm just sort of shocked that Chris let alone Nash was able to research a six figure card with limited access in a matter of seconds and raise these questions to you, so you could act so quickly to correct. Again sort of surprised nothing else prior to this gave you reason to act or research this thoroughly before listing with an auction house for sale. Luckily the auction covered all the bases huh?

"There is surface marring or erasure on the back in the same upper quadrant. This could be a library stamp, a collector stamp or the mark of some retailer."

Yeah I guess I'm just an idiot who doesn't get this hobby...you know me.

[Leon]

So what's happening with the card?

After I speak with the NYPL (hopefully tomorrow but very soon) a determination will be made. It can't be put back in once pulled so we are making sure it was in fact stolen before we pull it. I wish I had seen how that mark was portrayed today, earlier. Such is life. I just bought a card....(and this was the 3rd time it has sold in auction since 1996)

[Leon]

Things were deaccessioned for various reasons. Do some research. Just because there is a mark doesn't mean it was stolen. As a matter of fact according to the document on Nash's website there is one 1869 Red Stocking card reported missing. If JC has/had one, and I have one, how do we know it didn't leave the library under normal conditions? Lots of assumptions here...

Honestly Leon, of all the things you said, this is the one that really stands out to me as the most concerning, especially the way you phrased it.

"If they ask for it back...". Only if they ask for it to be returned? I find that an odd caveat to make, unless you are aware of the fact that public libraries in the past have not always been on top of recovering their stolen items, even when they've been proven to be stolen. Libraries have few resources and a lot of red tape to get through.

"If it's proven it's stolen..." What does that mean exactly? What burden of proof are you putting on this? Are you talking about legal proof? If the FBI tells you it's stolen?

As far as I'm concerned we have all the proof we need that the card was stolen, the only thing we don't have is "proof" from a court of law or government agency. If that's what you're talking about, then I think honestly you're just trying to find excuses not to give up the card. For instance, if I witness someone committing a murder, do i need to wait for a jury to decide if he's guilty before I do? Of course not, I can know something to be true even if legally it isn't acknowledged to be so.

In that spirit, let's look at the evidence. Here are the images that people are saying prove that the NY public library stamp was erased:


Ok so from what I can see the card has a bunch of red ink marks on the back. Oddly enough all the ink marks line up PERFECTLY with the NY public library stamp and match the color of the ink used. Oddly enough there are no red marks outside where the stamp would have made them. Also we know the NY public library has a rich history of items exactly like this one being stolen from its coffers.

The combination of these three facts alone makes the odds that these ink marks got there some other way astronomical, like 1 million to 1. And if someone took the time to erase the stamp and hide its true provenance, then the odds are nearly 100 percent that it's stolen.

So I don't get it Leon. Why not just say, "holy crap, you're right, I'm gonna make it right no matter what. Hell, I'll donate it back if that's what it takes!" Why are you putting so many conditions on the return? IF it's proven, IF they ask for it... You don't need to wait for someone to tell you, you and I know more about cards than any FBI agent or judge and we know that card was stolen regardless of whether it's legally acknowledged.

I don’t see how someone who truly was doing more than 99.9 percent of the hobby to combat fraud would be asking us to wait for another opinion or promising to return it on the condition that the library makes a formal request. Someone who was doing more that 99.9 percent of the hobby would donate it back to the library if that’s what it took to get it back in the right hands.

Right now the only thing that’s 99.9 percent is my certainty that the card was stolen.

EDIT: I'd like to apologize in advance if this comes off as too fiery. Want to add that I'm not saying Leon knew anything about the card or wouldn't take action to make sure it was handled the right way. Just pointing out my concerns about the way the issue is being discussed...

[Stonepony]

On the bright side there is an open bar at the Net54 hors d'oeuvers dinner

[Brian Van Horn]

Just a thought about sentencing:

[poorlydrawncat]

Things were deaccessioned for various reasons. Do some research. Just because there is a mark doesn't mean it was stolen. As a matter of fact according to the document on Nash's website there is one 1869 Red Stocking card reported missing. If JC has/had one, and I have one, how do we know it didn't leave the library under normal conditions? Lots of assumptions here...

No you're right, it's absolutely possible. But the fact that the mark was erased and that the card has a 25 year provenance that doesn't mention the NYPL makes it less of an assumption. But obviously I get your point, and you don't want to assume anything when it comes to a card of this magnitude. But unless the NYPL says they released that card, I think it's no longer an assumption at that point.

Pardon my ignorance, I don't know who JC is or what his copy looks like (I'm not too entrenched in hobby circles). Are you saying JC's card could be the missing one? We know yours has the NY stamp, is there evidence of a stamp on the reverse of his? Otherwise it seems like it takes more assumptions to assume his is the stolen card and not yours. Please correct me if I'm not getting your point about how the other card plays into this.

Also my point was more about the conditions you were putting on the card's return (eg "if it's proven", "if they ask for it"). If the NYPL doesn't have records of it ever being returned to the public, I'd like to know that you would return it on the basis that it was the right thing to do and not because you got a formal request.

[conor912]

Things were deaccessioned for various reasons. Do some research. Just because there is a mark doesn't mean it was stolen. As a matter of fact according to the document on Nash's website there is one 1869 Red Stocking card reported missing. If JC has/had one, and I have one, how do we know it didn't leave the library under normal conditions? Lots of assumptions here...

So I guess, even with this said, and assuming you have the one that was not stolen (yet obviously still belonged to the NYPL), that it was stamped, then altered to try and remove said stamp, and should be in an SGC A holder and not graded a 50, right? I'm just trying to sort out the various rotten smells in Denmark.

[glchen]

A lot of people are really beating up on Leon in this thread. I think from his history on the board, and his past actions, he really deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Give him time to sort through this. I know a few years ago, I purchased a raw Butterfinger Babe Ruth ad card from a reputable consignor on ebay. I thought the item was authentic, so I didn't even bother sending it in for authentication for over a year. Finally, I decided to send the card into Beckett, more for protection than to check if it were authentic, and I was very surprised when it came back as counterfeit. The consignor and I agreed to have Leon mediate this, and Leon was very generous with his time in working with the Beckett folks to take another look at the card. The card was still determined to be fake, and Leon agreed with the assessment since he had owned a genuine one of these in the past. Leon had no obligation whatsoever to get involved in this matter, yet he did, and helped me a lot in this matter. (I was also very satisfied with the refund that I received from the consignor after I returned this card also.) The point is that Leon really does a lot for a lot of collectors in the hobby without asking anything to be publicized or anything. I really think he's deserves and has earned the time to let this matter run the course before people pass their judgment here.

[calvindog]

How does a card with an NYPL stamp which means it's clearly owned by the NYPL "leave the library under normal conditions?" What are such "normal conditions"? Like it grew legs and walked out?

[Leon]

How does a card with an NYPL stamp which means it's clearly owned by the NYPL "leave the library under normal conditions?" What are such "normal conditions"? Like it grew legs and walked out?

Like it was possibly sold to use the money for other reasons. Now about all of those card doctors you represent. Why don't we talk about them for awhile?

[poorlydrawncat]

How does a card with an NYPL stamp which means it's clearly owned by the NYPL "leave the library under normal conditions?" What are such "normal conditions"? Like it grew legs and walked out?

It's unlikely, but like Leon mentioned sometimes libraries will sell items when they need the money. But there would be a record of that sale, and unless the NYPL has one, I think there's no doubt the card is stolen...

[poorlydrawncat]

Like it was possibly sold to use the money for other reasons. Now about all of those card doctors you represent. Why don't we talk about them for awhile?

Before we change the subject, just answer me this:

If the NYPL does not have record of the sale, would you return the card?

And if there's other circumstances I'm not considering by all means bring them up.

[calvindog]

Like it was possibly sold to use the money for other reasons. Now about all of those card doctors you represent. Why don't we talk about them for awhile?

You mean my representation of people in accordance with the Constitution and federal laws? You know I don't conspire with clients to commit fraud in the hobby. And you also know I'm not going to breach a privilege to discuss what my clients say to me.

So let me get this straight:

Dewolf is a "vile pri*k"
Wonka is an "idiot"
I'm a "bold-faced [sic] liar."

What does that make you? Why don't you just acknowledge legitimate criticism instead of attacking everyone who dares to speak the obvious? No one has it out for you here. There's no "crusade" against you. Why such increasingly irrational responses?

[Leon]

You sound like a broken record. Like a little kid "what does that make you".....really? Why do you defend card doctors when you are allegedly leading the charge against them? Uh, I think that would make you a hypocrite.

You mean my representation of people in accordance with the Constitution and federal laws? You know I don't conspire with clients to commit fraud in the hobby. And you also know I'm not going to breach a privilege to discuss what my clients say to me.

So let me get this straight:

DeWolf is a "vile pri*k"
Wonka is an "idiot"
I'm a "bold-faced [sic] liar."

What does that make you?

[calvindog]

You sound like a broken record. Like a little kid "what does that make you".....really? Why do you defend card doctors when you are allegedly leading the charge against them? Uh, I think that would make you a hypocrite.

Uh you have no idea the circumstances of my representation. Just like you had no idea that your card belonged to the NYPL.

[Econteachert205]

I worked at a museumthat had items "donated" all the time. More like trash drop off, old magazines, farm equipment etc. when I worked there one of the jobs was to de accession items. We had an antiquated cataloging system ( this was 2004) and not all items were catalogued. We had volunteers who would put things into storage without properly cataloging.

I'm sure that now the nypl has their act together, being a larger institution than the one I worked at, however in the past, I'm sure the same problems as I described with books occurred. Here are a few thoughts on the item in question.

1. I feel it is unlikely that even if there were multiple cards in the nypl collection one would be deaccessioned or sold without clear recording, even 30 years ago.

2. It seems likely that the stamp is from a library collection, and if it was sold legally, it seems unlikely the new owner would chance damaging the card to remove the stamp.

3. I trust Leon that he bought it after whatever happened. He is the one who stands to lose large here. If he suspected the card was taken from a library collection he would have sold it privately, not put it with scans on a major auction house where this super rare card, one of a handful, could be scrutinized in such a way.

4. The FBI and Nypl will be made aware, Leon stands to lose a lot on the card and this whole ordeal will likely be no fun whatsoever. If it were my card I'd be sick. He's been straight forward about addressing the concerns here.

[Leon]

As I want to move onto more positive things, and this is being figured out, I won't be posting in this inquisition thread anymore. The auction item will be updated if it is left in and all bidders will be notified and given an option to withdraw their bids given the new information. That is all for now. Thanks for the support I have gotten publicly and privately. And to any naysayers, I am sorry you feel that way.

[poorlydrawncat]

As I want to move onto more positive things, and this is being figured out, I won't be posting in this inquisition thread anymore. The auction item will be updated if it is left in and all bidders will be notified and given an option to withdraw their bids given the new information. That is all for now. Thanks for the support I have gotten publicly and privately. And to any naysayers, I am sorry you feel that way.

I like that you used your final two posts to change the subject and not address any of the actual questions regarding whether you would return the item at question. Up until now I've usually found myself on your side with these things and I've always considered you an upstanding member of the hobby...

To be honest, I've lost a lot of respect for you with the way you've handled this thread and the whole situation...

[CW]

To bad Peter Nash does not write about all the hardship he has caused this hobby.


This amazes me as well. It's as if Nash thinks by doing all this research and exposing all these other "frauds", it either creates a diversion to the fraud he has committed, OR he thinks it will somehow vindicate him and people will think, "Yeah, that Pete Nash... he's not so bad!"

Yet another bizarre facet to this crazy hobby we all love.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to this link, bold-faced liar is acceptable usage.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/57985/it-bald-faced-or-bold-faced-lie

[Rob D.]

According to this link, bold-faced liar is acceptable usage.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/57985/it-bald-faced-or-bold-faced-lie

Thanks, Barry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thanks, Barry.

I fill in for him now that he goes to bed at 8 PM.

[wonkaticket]

You can call it beating up on him, a witch hunt or an inquisition. I call it being disappointed. The facts are Leon has/had a card that he knew full well had potential issues. He was made aware of these issues long ago by qualified people with nothing to gain. He's a person of standing in our hobby and someone who touts their honesty, integrity and dedication to this hobby. A person that demands people to stand behind their comments.

Regardless of the laws regarding ownership, legal issues, innocence or guilt. I find it disappointing and hard to believe. That almost a year after these issues were brought to his attention he never noticed or looked for a stamp connecting this card to the NYPL.

I'm sorry but if the Federal Bureau of Investigation takes an item from my collection for review as potentially stolen. From that day forward that would be the focus of my collecting world to clear the misunderstanding and resolve any questions around my item long before it ever hit an auction block. To say after it's at auction "oh yeah now that you mention it I do see the mark, wish I had seen that before" seems dishonest at the worst end of the spectrum and extremely naive at the other end.

But I'm an idiot for seeing it this way that's been clearly pointed out, so this idiot will let this auction pass him by.

[trobba]

If the card was sold legally, why would someone go through the trouble/effort/risk to remove the seal from the card?

I don't really get it, the close up scan shows enough indisputable proof that the word "library" was there as well as other marks to remove any doubt from my (completely unbiased) mind that it was the NYPL mark.

I think Heritage's caveat of "a collector stamp or the mark of some retailer" is pretty lame and touches, if not crosses, the border of stretching the truth.

I don't collect these and knew nothing of all this until I read this post, but it sure seems to me the card has major provenance issues and until the truth is completely resolved have trouble seeing it up for public auction. Why not pull it and do all the research? If it proves clean it will only increase the value when up again, instead of having a shroud of guilt lingering that will only taint the whole sitchie...

Seems like there are enough questions to slow everything down and get it right.

Rob G

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on the chronology presented, I infer that the FBI took the card from Leon, examined it, and returned it to him. What if they told him they had no reason to believe the card was stolen? (I don't know that to be the case, just drawing possible inferences.) Why could Leon not reasonably rely on that assurance, at least until other information was presented, which appears to have happened for the first time yesterday? It seems to me the criticism here involves some degree of hindsight, and some assumptions that may or may not be true.

In any event, hopefully this will reach a resolution soon.

[packs]

I have no opinion on anyone involved or what is right or wrong. I'm just posting about logistics of the NYPL making a deacquisition.

The last time the NYPL made its collection available for sale was in 2005, when it sold some items from it's art collection. It was big news when it happened and is readily searchable. However, I can't find any information on them holding an auction for pieces from their baseball card collection.

[Wildfireschulte]

The way Heritage and Luckey handled this card has lowered both companies from the status of "esteemed auction house" to the same level as the eBay hucksters in my mind. Over and over we've seen the smart people on this board bust some of the big-name auction houses over fraudulent descriptions. Keep it up guys!

[calvindog]

What if they told him they had no reason to believe the card was stolen? (I don't know that to be the case, just drawing possible inferences.)

A more realistic inference to be drawn is that they told him what they saw on the back of the card was inconclusive, especially considering they looked at the back of the card not inside an FBI lab with FBI equipment but with whatever they could find at the PSA booth.