Is snipe bidding killing the hobby?

[cfhofer]

Hello,

Curious on others thoughts regarding snipe bidding on ebay. Obviously this practice is a huge advantage for buyers but awful for sellers. Is it a coincidence that there are now so many sports auction sites (which don't allow snipes) and most ebay items are BIN?

Mark

[glynparson]

It has lowered the number of auctions starting at a dollar that i agree with. THe peak hobby years there was no ebay and most things were sold "retail" I think a lot of the have to sell for cash flow dealers have gone away, many during the last downturn, but I don't see the hobby going any where in fact many areas are as strong as they have been in a long time.

[vintagesportscollector]

Interesting question, but Snipe is nothing new. I agree that the dynamics of sales (i.e. fewer auctions) has changed significantly over the years, but not sure I would attribure that to Snipe nor would I say it is killing the hobby. Sellers have become more sensitive to price, with great awareness of market value, and do not wish to give items away below market - I think that has attrbuted more to the change than Snipe.

[Econteachert205]

I still get good deals off ebay through traditional bids.

[GoCubsGo32]

I mostly snipe due to the potential shill bid factor.

[packs]

I don't think sniping is all that different from how I normally bid anyway. I'll wait until the clock counts down to 2 seconds and bid on my own. I guess it would be more convenient if I just got a snipe service, but I'm doing the same thing anyway.

[Scott Garner]

I agree with both of the last two posters. The only real thing that has changed is that the great majority of all bidding activity occurs at the very end of an auction.

Personally, I've never understood the logic of bidding repeatedly early in an auction. The only thing that this does is artificially force the price up and increase the likelihood that you will spend an excessive amount as a buyer.

I certainly believe this as a buyer and understand and accept this as a seller FWIW...

[Runscott]

I don't think sniping is all that different from how I normally bid anyway. I'll wait until the clock counts down to 2 seconds and bid on my own. I guess it would be more convenient if I just got a snipe service, but I'm doing the same thing anyway.

Same here. I essentially enter the equivalent of a manual snipe, but if the item is extremely important to me I use a snipe service, simply because I don't want to forget to bid.

The good old days are gone. But they always are - things always look better in the rear view mirror.

[cfhofer]

Great comments/points! EBay provided (IMHO) the single biggest jolt to the sports memorabilia hobby in the last 30 years. While it may have accelerated the downfall of brick & mortar sport shops and local card shows, it had enough global accessibility to generate a true “market value” for our collectibles – while completely eliminating the middle man in the process.

Does snipe bidding establish a true "market value"? It is a flurry of independent single offers within the last 10 seconds of an auction. While it is almost foolish for a bidder to NOT snipe bid (as pointed out above), the seller is forced to play a game of “Russian roulette”. Now some sports collectibles (vintage cards instantly come to mind) generate enough bids that a seller typically makes out ok. But for vintage sports memorabilia it is a total crapshoot on eBay.

Is it a coincidence the high quality vintage sports memorabilia has dried up on eBay over the last few years? Sure an occasional antique dealer puts up a cool piece, but those are few and far between. It seems that more and more high quality pieces are making their way to a plethora of sports auction sites instead – which has reestablished the middle man that eBay helped eliminate. Has the hobby now come full circle?

Great discussion this morning!!

[hcv123]

1) I agree with all the points made above related to the buyer side. I almost always snipe.
2) As a seller - for regularly traded items where a market value is easily established, I believe there is not too much risk that a seller takes on.
3) For more thinly traded items or should I "feel like it" - I have the choice to set a minimum bid or reserve. Yes, statistically it chases some bidders away, but it also protects me.

[JoeDfan]

I almost always snipe on things I really want to add to the collection. For me I find that it prevents me from making emotional decisions at the last minute and overspending. I just enter the highest amount I am willing to pay and that is that.
Also, I have been in a few auctions where it was pretty clear there was some shills going down.

That said, I have lost a few bids with sniper, and then again, but I have gotten a few steals too.

[nolemmings]

I agree with others here about sniping, which has has been around from the beginning. I manually snipe unless there's something ending when I know I won't be able to bid; if it's something I want real bad and don't want to forget to bid; or, if multiple items are ending at the same time--then I use a free service (this is rare).

I probably shouldn't say this, but I often actually invite shilling in a way. Many times my placeholder bid is set at about 50% of what I actually would be willing to pay. I want there to be early interest on the off chance a seller is thinking of pulling the card for non-bidding and/or selling off-line at a "panic" price--obviously this would not apply to knowledgeable sellers. Anyway, I am hoping others bid up to my "max" and I don't care if it's shilled to get there--philosophically I wish the card would have been started at a higher price or a reserve set but I understand some sellers for whatever reason don't/won't do that. This let's seller know he won't get absolutely fleeced if it sells. When I get an outbid notice by email I then look to see if I think the interest is legitimate or I suspect shilling. Also, if that outbid notice comes real early after my bid, it signals in some sense that this card may draw real interest for the duration of the auction. In short, it's kind of a litmus test that makes me look at the auction more closely and consider whether this is something I really want and how hard I may have to fight for it with a late snipe. Obviously far from fool proof but makes things a little more interesting, for me anyway. Plus, it helps prevent me from kicking myself when I occasionally forget to bid in ebay auctions that ultimately sell for a small fraction of what I would have paid (it happens)--this way I could get a great deal or at least know I pushed someone else to pay closer to market value.

[cfhofer]

I do the exact same thing Todd (nolemmings). Thought I was the only one who did that!

[sporteq]

Sniping isn't a issue. Bidders that keep bumping up the price are IMO

[Scott Garner]

Sniping isn't a issue. Bidders that keep bumping up the price are IMO

+1

[perezfan]

Great comments/points! EBay provided (IMHO) the single biggest jolt to the sports memorabilia hobby in the last 30 years. While it may have accelerated the downfall of brick & mortar sport shops and local card shows, it had enough global accessibility to generate a true “market value” for our collectibles – while completely eliminating the middle man in the process.

Does snipe bidding establish a true "market value"? It is a flurry of independent single offers within the last 10 seconds of an auction. While it is almost foolish for a bidder to NOT snipe bid (as pointed out above), the seller is forced to play a game of “Russian roulette”. Now some sports collectibles (vintage cards instantly come to mind) generate enough bids that a seller typically makes out ok. But for vintage sports memorabilia it is a total crapshoot on eBay.

Is it a coincidence the high quality vintage sports memorabilia has dried up on eBay over the last few years? Sure an occasional antique dealer puts up a cool piece, but those are few and far between. It seems that more and more high quality pieces are making their way to a plethora of sports auction sites instead – which has reestablished the middle man that eBay helped eliminate. Has the hobby now come full circle?

Great discussion this morning!!

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

[Scott Garner]

I tend to agree with many of perezfan Mark's points, however I have found eBay is an excellent place to sell vintage baseball tickets and certain other memorabilia.

I've noted that large catalogue AH's are a crap shoot when it comes to selling vintage baseball tickets. Many times tickets do not realize anywhere near the prices that you can frequently get on eBay. I suspect that this is because of the fact that this is where many of the ticket collectors lurk, FWIW...

[cfhofer]

That is an excellent point perezfan. Snipe bidding is probably just another example of eBay's persistent pandering to the buyer.

[Teamgluck]

I got snipped today on a Brooklyn Dodger pennant I really wanted but am ok with it due to a fear of shill bids.

I do wish ebay put on a minute extended bid policy which would reduce sniping/ give me a chance to bid again

[sporteq]

Should bidders be warned after a series of bids on a item? Say they bid 10 times on a item.. Should ebay system warn them about their bidding activity, then allow them maybe 2 more bids? I can't see why someone needs to bid more than 5 times on a item. Just brainstorming :rolleyes:

[perezfan]

Well... Some may be "fishing" for a reserve amount.

Others may be trying to beat an earlier placed ceiling bid.

Others may not have the patience or discipline to bid late.

And perhaps the remainder are simply unaware of the various sniping services.

[yankeeno7]

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

This. +1

[drcy]

Sniping is why sellers began ending auctions early to accept offers. Whether or not one thinks it's ethical, if a $500 item is stuck at a 99 cent bid on day five, many sellers will start entertaining reasonable offers. This is particularly true when they were previously burned by auctions where snipe bid never materialized in the last two seconds and the items sold for cheap.

I put up a somewhat valuable item item for 99 cents on eBay with $5 shipping. It sold for $15. The shipping was $17.50. I wasn't about to end the auction once there was a bid and the winner had bought valuable items from me before so I'm not complaining and I'm happy for his business, but this is why I rarely do auctions on eBay and have no intention to in the near future. It's all BINs for me with no apologies.

Do I think sniping in part messed up eBay auctions and contributed to the scarcity of auctions and the abundance of BINs? Yes, I do. I believe it very firmly. Do I think sniping was a reasonable reaction to shill bidding and eBay protecting shill bidders? Yes. Something can be messed by multiple forces. Though I do know if sellers thought they'd get fair prices via eBay auctions there would be more auctions and fewer BINs. Most sellers would be much prefer to have their items sold at fair prices in a week, rather than sit around as BINs.

[Runscott]

Well... Some may be "fishing" for a reserve amount.

Others may be trying to beat an earlier placed ceiling bid.

Others may not have the patience or discipline to bid late.

And perhaps the remainder are simply unaware of the various sniping services.

This makes me think that sniping may be overall GOOD for ebay and for sellers and buyers. If sniping were the required bidding method, it would prevent people from bidding and then retracting their bid once they knew the reserve or the high bid.

[rats60]

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

Ebay + Paypal is 11%. What auction house charges less than that? The ones I've seen are charging 18-20%. The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more. No sniping plus bidders that don't use ebay.

[drcy]

"The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more."

That's known a big advantage.

One problem with the scarcity of auctions on eBay, and the scarcity of quality items auction on eBay, is fewer collectors look for eBay auctions. A seller may not put up a nice item sd auction on eBay out of fear collectors won't look for or see it amongst the sea of BINs. In the old days when BINs were few to none, eBay was the place for auctions and people came to bid.

[travrosty]

in reality, there is no such thing as sniping, you bid as much as you are willing to pay, whether it is right away at the beginning of the auction , or 2 seconds left, and others do too. so the high price takes it, no matter when it was entered as a bid.

[David Atkatz]

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

[travrosty]

others snipe knowing they cant enter another bid, like you, so they are like you and entering their max snipe. if you enter the max bid right at the end or the beginning , you will win it or not depending on whether someone wanted it more than you or not.

[Scott Garner]

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

+1

[cfhofer]

You are spot on Drcy!

Let's be honest...we don't snipe bid to just avoid "shill" bids. We snipe bid to avoid "ANY" competing bid, even legitimate ones. It is exploitation of a flaw in eBay's auction system. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is the only auction house in history to function this way.

The purpose of an auction is to sell an item at fair market value. How does a flurry of snipe bids in the final 10 seconds determine fair market value? Now there are some items, say a 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 7, that the market value is pretty well established. But how much should someone pay for an 1894 Varsity Yale Football Pach Bros photo? Our hobby needs the back-and-forth of bids to determine that. That is healthy for our hobby.

[Leon]

You are spot on Drcy!

Let's be honest...we don't snipe bid to just avoid "shill" bids. We snipe bid to avoid "ANY" competing bid, even legitimate ones. It is exploitation of a flaw in eBay's auction system. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is the only auction house in history to function this way.

The purpose of an auction is to sell an item at fair market value. How does a flurry of snipe bids in the final 10 seconds determine fair market value? Now there are some items, say a 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 7, that the market value is pretty well established. But how much should someone pay for an 1894 Varsity Yale Football Pach Bros photo? Our hobby needs the back-and-forth of bids to determine that. That is healthy for our hobby.

Heritage Auctions owns Gavelsnipe.com and you can bid/snipe (maybe) in Heritage from their sniping service.

And, to me, the flurry of snipe bids is true market. (unless they are shills). I only put in snipes ( I snipe 98% of the time, the other 2% I want the adrenaline rush) when I want something, and absent fraud, others do the same thing. How can that not be true market? In reality no auction in the world has 100% of interested buyers in their auction. I bid in a ton of auctions, ebay and otherwise....and help run a small auction company, so have my own views..... Fun debate.....

[cfhofer]

Leon,

It is a fun debate. Obviously there is no definitive answer. Heritage has a 5-minute rule on Internet auctions.

But let me ask you this, since you run a small auction company. If eBay gave you (as the seller) the option for a "10-minute rule" at an extra 1% would you take advantage of it?

[Samets]

I agree with others here about sniping, which has has been around from the beginning. I manually snipe unless there's something ending when I know I won't be able to bid; if it's something I want real bad and don't want to forget to bid; or, if multiple items are ending at the same time--then I use a free service (this is rare).

I probably shouldn't say this, but I often actually invite shilling in a way. Many times my placeholder bid is set at about 50% of what I actually would be willing to pay. I want there to be early interest on the off chance a seller is thinking of pulling the card for non-bidding and/or selling off-line at a "panic" price--obviously this would not apply to knowledgeable sellers. Anyway, I am hoping others bid up to my "max" and I don't care if it's shilled to get there--philosophically I wish the card would have been started at a higher price or a reserve set but I understand some sellers for whatever reason don't/won't do that. This let's seller know he won't get absolutely fleeced if it sells. When I get an outbid notice by email I then look to see if I think the interest is legitimate or I suspect shilling. Also, if that outbid notice comes real early after my bid, it signals in some sense that this card may draw real interest for the duration of the auction. In short, it's kind of a litmus test that makes me look at the auction more closely and consider whether this is something I really want and how hard I may have to fight for it with a late snipe. Obviously far from fool proof but makes things a little more interesting, for me anyway. Plus, it helps prevent me from kicking myself when I occasionally forget to bid in ebay auctions that ultimately sell for a small fraction of what I would have paid (it happens)--this way I could get a great deal or at least know I pushed someone else to pay closer to market value.

I'm doing pretty much the same things! If a seller lists a jersey knowing what it is or unknowing what it is at a low price, I will throw in a decent bid to see what the interest level is and to show the seller that he shouldn't sell outside of eBay. This sadly works only fraction of the time. I see too many things that don't get the bids the seller wants and he/she freak out and sell it outside of eBay. I bet they will make more if they let the auction take its course (most of the time)... There are a few guys out there that collect exactly what I do and I can't think of a time where I got a "steal" The only steals I've gotten is from a seller that lists a BIN that is below fair market and I will jump on that.

As a seller, I've been contacted with offers and even a guy with the math of how it makes more sense to skip eBay FVF/PayPal systems...

I'm shocked with as greedy as eBay is that they haven't implemented a 15 minute rule with their auctions. I love it with NFL Auctions. I get an e-mail and I have 15 minutes to decide if I want to go higher. In this case everyone wins. eBay gets the maximum dollar value to get their fees. The seller gets the item sold for the maximum price at that time. The buyer knows that he paid a fair market price.

[cfhofer]

I agree Samets.

I don't see why eBay doesn't offer a "10 minute rule" option to sellers for an additional fee. Maybe it is much more complicated (from the backend/software) than we think??

[Leon]

Leon,

It is a fun debate. Obviously there is no definitive answer. Heritage has a 5-minute rule on Internet auctions.

But let me ask you this, since you run a small auction company. If eBay gave you (as the seller) the option for a "10-minute rule" at an extra 1% would you take advantage of it?

I am not sure I would ever want to pay more for ebay services. They are kind of rich right now, imo. But I would have to consider it, financially, even if my personal bias is to hate more fees. At the end of the day their invoice, If I could make more than I am spending, I would do it. :)

And no, the 10 minute ebay rule programming would not be difficult to do, with respect to everything else. I have been involved in a few auction programming projects on the sales/marketing side of the business..(I am not technical but have seen what can be done and how long things take, in general)


,

[drcy]

Clearly people place snipe bids to get lower prices. People in this very thread have said that. So clearly sniping lowers prices. And it's not just a matter of shilling (which I don't deny is a legitimate problem), but people here have said they do it due to other legitimate bidders. They believe other bidders (and I'm talking about honest ones) will bid more and raise prices if they see their bids in the middle of the auction as opposed to when they're snuck in at the end and don't have a chance to react. Call it psychological bidding if you wish or people bidding more when they're emotionally invested in an item they've bid on or being irrationally exuberant or having more time to think if they are willing to place an extra bid, but that's a part of how people bid. People are psychological animals not robots and often will bid more than they would have if they someone has out bid them. Remove shilling and have only legitimate honest bidders participating in the bidding process and people would still place snip bids to get lower prices. The reason why auction houses have 10 or 15 minute rules is because bidders will reconsider what they're willing to bid and sometimes raise their bids when given a few minutes to think about it-- something that snipe bidding eliminates and is designed to eliminate. The idea that sniping has no effect on final pricing is, quite simply, wrong-- and I'm talking here about auctions where there is no shilling.

[mcgwirecom]

Yes we snipe to get a lower price but also to avoid the shillers. Back in the day I would just put in my secret highest bid. On several occasions I would wake up in the morning and get two different emails. One said "you were outbid". The next would say "you won!". WTF? I went back and would see a bidder top everyone and then retract his bid and rebid just under my secret high bid.

After that I would sit at the computer for every auction I wanted to bid in, wait until the last second and pop in my high bid. So esnipe was a great idea.

The other reason I wait until the last second is because some people don't put in the time and effort to research some items. They just look at what everyone is bidding on and jump in. I've won many auctions with only my bid because I spent a lot of time researching something to find out it was a great deal. I spent the time, I reap the benefits. If I were to bid on it the first day its like sending up a flag that this is a good item to bid on.

[Lordstan]

I look at sniping slightly differently.

I snipe not because of "lower" prices per se. I snipe because it prevents me from getting emotional about an item. By bidding the most I'm willing to pay at the very end, allows me to stay within my budget and either win or lose without regret. I never assume my bid will win it more cheaply than my max. If it does great. If it doesn't that's OK too. It's not my fault others don't bid at the end the same way. If they do, the final price isn't very likely to be lower at all.

I think the reason there is less stuff on ebay is because they have made it a very unfriendly place for small sellers. Sure, if you're KHW or PWCC or Probstein, you can still survive quite well because of the volume, but ebay is trying to be Amazon. This has made it virtually impossible for the collector who sells so he/she can buy to be able to sell cost effectively. The higher fees and strangling rules, not sniping, have made guys like Mark(perezfan) and others, who have high end items they may want to move to buy something else, no longer chance selling on ebay outside of BINs at prices that factor in the extra fees.

[murphusa]

I place a bid on an item for the amount I want to pay. If I win, great, if not, there is always the nest one.

[cfhofer]

Sniping is the best way to bid on eBay, no question. Several studies have proven that items sold under snipes go for less money than traditional auctions. However, if sellers are now looking to maximize profits by shifting their material to BINs or sports auction sites how is this healthy for our hobby? I would much rather purchase an item off eBay than pay 25% buyers fees.

[Jewish-collector]

I don't agree with the "sniping saves me money" for an auction. There are 2 reasons I will snipe 1) to not show your hand 2) you can decide to change your bid, not bid, etc,... up until 5 minutes before the auction ends.

I also agree with murphusa. There's always another blankin auction. And another one after that. So, big deal if you "miss something".

What I can't figure out is how the hell collectors can keep up with the 50+ auction houses + ebay + Net54 B/S/T. Can someone please explain that to me ? Please ?

[perezfan]

You basically just search the category/niche that suits you and save the items of interest to your "watch list". Then set your snipes accordingly (if ebay) or save the closing date to your calendar (if Catalogue Auction).

If you want the item(s) bad enough you won't lose track!

[travrosty]

sniping doesnt get stuff for lower prices. its ridiculous. if an item went for a price that was lower due to sniping, that means someone was willing to pay more, but didnt enter their increased bid. why would they not do that? that doesnt make sense. if someone was willing to pay more, they would have just entered a higher snipe bid at the end. sniping is just a way for people to THINK they have more control over an auction than they do. its a construct that makes people feel good, like thinking they are using a 'system' to beat the lottery, the roulette wheel, or the slot machines, when there is no such thing.

[CW]

What I can't figure out is how the hell collectors can keep up with the 50+ auction houses + ebay + Net54 B/S/T. Can someone please explain that to me ? Please ?

It takes some effort to stay on top of everything, all of the time, no doubt. Tools exist to make things easier, though, and since you said please....

excellent website for seeing what's running and what's coming up...

http://www.auctionreport.com/

another great site that allows you to enter specific searches and they'll let you known when a tracked auction house has a match for you. While it may not cover every AH, it covers quite a few, and many of the big ones...

http://bid-brain.com/

finally, reading SCD every few days will usually keep you up to date on many upcoming auctions...

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/

[CW]

sniping doesnt get stuff for lower prices. its ridiculous. if an item went for a price that was lower due to sniping, that means someone was willing to pay more, but didnt enter their increased bid. why would they not do that?

Because many collectors may want a certain card, but also want to get it for a good deal. You want a card, but you don't want to overpay (that can take some of the fun out of the hobby).

It happens all the time. A bidder will set an aggressive snipe that they are certain will win, only to see someone else outbid them. Many of those bidders, if given a 2nd chance to bid just a bit more, would enter in a higher snipe. It may not make sense to you, but I would think it happens a lot.

[doug.goodman]

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

There it is, in a nutshell.

If you don't want to be "sniped" then bid a higher amount. Easy.

[drcy]

As noted, many bidders who lose an auction by a last second bid would have placed a higher bid if given a second chance. If bids were placed earlier, they would have had the second chance, but with snipe bids they have no second chance. This explains why snipe bids can and do lower prices.

If someone places a snipe bid of $200 and it's won by someone else at $205, he may say "Aw shoot, I wanted that. I would have paid $210 for that. I may have even paid $220. I wish I could go back and raise my max bid." If there were no snipe bids, but the $205 (or higher) bid by his opponent placed a day before the auction's or even 10 minutes before the end, he has the chance to say "Aw shoot, I want this so I'm going to raise my bid to $220." That's exactly how snipe bids can and do result in lower prices. And that's exactly why auction houses have 10 or fifteen minute rules. No major auction house has a fixed ending time with snipe bidding-- because they know many bidders will raise their previous max bids if given 10 or fifteen minutes to reconsider, and they know their 10 or 15 minute chance to reconsider system results in higher final prices.

In a 7 day auction, a bidder may have a set-in-stone, unwavering mind, "that's what's in my budget" $1,000 max bid for 6 days 23 hours and 55 minutes, but when he sees the bid go to $1,010 with five minutes left he may say "Aw what the hell, I'll go to $1,100." If the $1,100 bid isn't high enough and there's two minutes left he may say "Okay, I'll bid $1,250, but no higher." If the two bidders had place snipe bids, the auction would have ended at $1,010.

[murphusa]

well it can't be killing the hobby, look at how many collectors are using it.

[perezfan]

If anything, it's helping the hobby.

I don't see anything remotely detrimental :confused:

Now if eBay finds some way to prohibit sniping (which I wouldn't put past them), that WOULD be a blow to the hobby!

[drcy]

I don't think it's "killing the hobby"-- that was an over the top question--, but it does help explain why there are fewer auctions and more BINS on eBay. Bidders like the lower prices caused by snipe auctions, but sellers don't. Sniping is also why sellers will more often these days end auctions early to accept an offers.

Realize that eBay may some day realize that snipe bids costs them money and add a 5 minute (or similar) rule. It may not be a repetitively resetting clock as with the big auction houses, but perhaps just a one time five or ten minutes added on when there's a last millisecond snipe bid to give the other other bidders chances to place one last additional bid. As someone in this thread said, he's surprised they hasn't already done it.

[vintagesportscollector]

Two weeks ago I had an amusing, but fortunate, snipe incident. I usually place auto snipes on about half the items I bid on, and the other half I manually snipe if I am not sure on the amount I want to bid and if I know I am going to be around to watch the auction end.

There was an item that I really really wanted that I figured would go for around $50. For whatever reason I didn’t choose to auto snipe and planned to just be around and watch the end and place a last second bid. My bid was going to be $111.11 just to place some odd amount, that we all often do. I figured that amount should win it because it was an odd item in my niche which I figured wouldn’t attract much interest.

As I watched the end of the auction with about 4 mins to go, I noticed my internet connection was getting really slow and spotty. The current high bid was about $25. Fearing my internet was slow, I placed my bid at about 40 seconds left…and wouldn’t you know the max bid for the current high bidder was also $111.11, but he had bid first so I was still losing. Go figure. Since I had placed it with 40 seconds left, I had time to nudge it up, and I won the item. If I had placed my auto snipe with the amount I figured would be enough to win, or waited to the last second to manually bid, I would have lost. That’s called dumb luck. :rolleyes:

[travrosty]

yeah but if you were willing to pay more than the 111.11, why didnt you place a higher bid instead of 111.11, why not place the highest bid you are willing to bid and not a penny more and be done with it?

figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more than that even if someone twisted your arm, then you will never have regrets and dont have to go through the 'snipe exercise'.

[bnorth]

I got snipped today on a Brooklyn Dodger pennant I really wanted but am ok with it due to a fear of shill bids.

I do wish ebay put on a minute extended bid policy which would reduce sniping/ give me a chance to bid again

eBay tried the extended bid policy several years ago and if failed miserably for good reason.

[vintagesportscollector]

Fair question Travis - but you make it sound so easy...”figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. David addressed it well in post #48. I thought $111.11 was my highest and would easily win the item. Given the opportunity to bid another $1, I did. Since we were tied I knew the next increment would/could win it. I only bid the next minimum increment. Would I have gone to $120?...NO. I had the opportunity to get the item for another small increment and I decided to do it. Most people would…even you I bet.

Think of every item you have lost on ebay that you really wanted….now, think of this…after each time you lost someone tells you you can win it if you pay another $1. Would you say no?? Bullshit – of course you wouldn’t. You would throw in another $1 much of the time, going over “the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. If you say you wouldn’t then I think you are lieing to yourself.

It’s all emotions, the thrill of the chase, yada yada yada…it happens to ALL of us.

[drcy]

Human nature:

Alice: "I just baked thus plate of chocolate chip cookies. Do you want one?"
John: "Thank you, but no. I'm on a diet and am not eating sweets."
Alice: "Are you sure?"
John: "No, but thank you."
Alice: "Just have one. One won't kill your diet."
John: "No. Definitely no. I promised myself I'd stick to my diet."
Alice: "Last chance.
John: "No . . . Okay, but just one."
Alice: "Okay. Here you go. Don't worry, one cookie won't ruin your diet."
John: "Aw what the Hell. Might as well make it two . . . No three."

[doug.goodman]

As for human nature, I prefer :

MAITRE D: And finally, monsieur, a wafer-thin mint.

MR. CREOSOTE: Nah.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir, it's only a tiny, little, thin one.

MR. CREOSOTE: No. Fuck off. I'm full.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir. Hmm?

MR. CREOSOTE: [groan]

MAITRE D: It's only wafer thin.

MR. CREOSOTE: Look. I couldn't eat another thing. I'm absolutely stuffed. Bugger off.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir, just-- just one.

MR. CREOSOTE: [groaning] All right. Just one.

[vintagesportscollector]

As for human nature, I prefer :

MR. CREOSOTE: No. Fuck off. I'm full.


I'm sitting here cracking up, and my wife is asking me what I am laughing at.:p. I'm a big Monty Python fan.

[Runscott]

sniping doesnt get stuff for lower prices. its ridiculous. if an item went for a price that was lower due to sniping, that means someone was willing to pay more, but didnt enter their increased bid. why would they not do that? that doesnt make sense. if someone was willing to pay more, they would have just entered a higher snipe bid at the end. sniping is just a way for people to THINK they have more control over an auction than they do. its a construct that makes people feel good, like thinking they are using a 'system' to beat the lottery, the roulette wheel, or the slot machines, when there is no such thing.

You are assuming everyone is logical. A snipe is usually a more thought-out, logical maximum bid. People who do not snipe are often caught up in their emotions, changing their mind when they are outbid and bidding above what was supposed to be their max.

[Runscott]

Human nature:

Alice: "I just baked thus plate of chocolate chip cookies. Do you want one?"
John: "Thank you, but no. I'm on a diet and am not eating sweets."
Alice: "Are you sure?"
John: "No, but thank you."
Alice: "Just have one. One won't kill your diet."
John: "No. Definitely no. I promised myself I'd stick to my diet."
Alice: "Last chance.
John: "No . . . Okay, but just one."
Alice: "Okay. Here you go. Don't worry, one cookie won't ruin your diet."
John: "Aw what the Hell. Might as well make it two . . . No three."

But if you had to place a snipe for the maximum number of cookies you would eat, and then live with that decision because the cookies would be gone anyway, then you would only eat one...or maybe none.

[travrosty]

Fair question Travis - but you make it sound so easy...”figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. David addressed it well in post #48. I thought $111.11 was my highest and would easily win the item. Given the opportunity to bid another $1, I did. Since we were tied I knew the next increment would/could win it. I only bid the next minimum increment. Would I have gone to $120?...NO. I had the opportunity to get the item for another small increment and I decided to do it. Most people would…even you I bet.

Think of every item you have lost on ebay that you really wanted….now, think of this…after each time you lost someone tells you you can win it if you pay another $1. Would you say no?? Bullshit – of course you wouldn’t. You would throw in another $1 much of the time, going over “the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. If you say you wouldn’t then I think you are lieing to yourself.

It’s all emotions, the thrill of the chase, yada yada yada…it happens to ALL of us.


it is easy, you are making it way too hard. when you make your initial bid, think about the max you are willing to pay, then think about what would happen if someone else wins it for 1 dollar more, and how you would have been willing to pay another 1 dollar more than that. Then you have NOT thought about your max bid, think about this process happening over and over and over again, and think about the highest, most ridiculous price being bid for this card, to the point where you say "that's enough, i just wont pay 1 more penny"

Then, and ONLY then, have you come to your max bid in your own mind. put that price down at the beginning of the auction and you don't have to worry about anything. There is always someone that might bid another dollar, it doesnt mean HIS max bid was only 1 dollar more than yours, you dont know how much more he might have ridiculously bid in order to win the item. I think people have regrets when they see that someone else got the item for only 1 dollar more than their max bid, but in reality the other guys max bid might have been way higher than yours.

So you don't have to sweat it, just think about the amount you would be willing to pay and not 1 penny more even if someone had a gun to your head, so to speak. It IS that easy, It's not hard.

[1952boyntoncollector]

it is easy, you are making it way too hard. when you make your initial bid, think about the max you are willing to pay, then think about what would happen if someone else wins it for 1 dollar more, and how you would have been willing to pay another 1 dollar more than that. Then you have NOT thought about your max bid, think about this process happening over and over and over again, and think about the highest, most ridiculous price being bid for this card, to the point where you say "that's enough, i just wont pay 1 more penny"

Then, and ONLY then, have you come to your max bid in your own mind. put that price down at the beginning of the auction and you don't have to worry about anything. There is always someone that might bid another dollar, it doesnt mean HIS max bid was only 1 dollar more than yours, you dont know how much more he might have ridiculously bid in order to win the item. I think people have regrets when they see that someone else got the item for only 1 dollar more than their max bid, but in reality the other guys max bid might have been way higher than yours.

So you don't have to sweat it, just think about the amount you would be willing to pay and not 1 penny more even if someone had a gun to your head, so to speak. It IS that easy, It's not hard.



right..eventually there is a max price you are willing to pay...when someone wants you to pay and says cmon its only 'only 1 dollar more' then bidding would go on forever if everyone had that philosophy..eventually there is no more '1 dollar more' that's worth it..

[vintagesportscollector]

Yes, eventually there is a max price you are willing to pay, of course there is, but everyone finds it that easy to lock in their max price up front?? Maybe it’s just me…(my wife says I am too emotional :o).

In Theory, Travis, I hear what you are saying. I suppose MY problem is determining exactly the highest amount I am willing to pay or the “that’s enough not 1 penny more” point as you have described. BUT maybe that is just me and most everyone else finds that as EASY as you describe it. I admit I am flawed – call me human. My recent experience that I described is unique and specific (its not always as clear as $1 more will win it). Do you think I should have not bid the extra $1? (BTW - I am looking at the item now on my desk and really glad I won it).

But let me ask you this again? You go through your thought process to come up with your highest amount, following the steps you described for an item you really want. You’re perfect so you know you have confidently figured out your highest amount, because it is an exact science they way you described it. You snipe your bid and are losing but realize if you bid 1 penny more you would win it…would you bid the extra penny? You don’t have to answer because I am sure your response would be your bid would have already thought about that penny.

How many people out there have set a snipe bid and change/raised it at some point?

Edited to add: BTW, Travis, please don’t take my sarcasm as criticism, just provocative to stir the debate. It’s a good discussion, and honestly you do make a point and I am going to try to apply that in the future.

[barrysloate]

As for human nature, I prefer :

MAITRE D: And finally, monsieur, a wafer-thin mint.

MR. CREOSOTE: Nah.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir, it's only a tiny, little, thin one.

MR. CREOSOTE: No. Fuck off. I'm full.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir. Hmm?

MR. CREOSOTE: [groan]

MAITRE D: It's only wafer thin.

MR. CREOSOTE: Look. I couldn't eat another thing. I'm absolutely stuffed. Bugger off.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir, just-- just one.

MR. CREOSOTE: [groaning] All right. Just one.

I was just watching this on HBO a couple of nights ago. One of the funniest and grossest scenes in movie history.

[ooo-ribay]

Yes, eventually there is a max price you are willing to pay, of course there is, but everyone finds it that easy to lock in their max price up front?? Maybe it’s just me…(my wife says I am too emotional :o).

In Theory, Travis, I hear what you are saying. I suppose MY problem is determining exactly the highest amount I am willing to pay or the “that’s enough not 1 penny more” point as you have described. BUT maybe that is just me and most everyone else finds that as EASY as you describe it. I admit I am flawed – call me human. My recent experience that I described is unique and specific (its not always as clear as $1 more will win it). Do you think I should have not bid the extra $1? (BTW - I am looking at the item now on my desk and really glad I won it).

But let me ask you this again? You go through your thought process to come up with your highest amount, following the steps you described for an item you really want. You’re perfect so you know you have confidently figured out your highest amount, because it is an exact science they way you described it. You snipe your bid and are losing but realize if you bid 1 penny more you would win it…would you bid the extra penny? You don’t have to answer because I am sure your response would be your bid would have already thought about that penny.

How many people out there have set a snipe bid and change/raised it at some point?

Edited to add: BTW, Travis, please don’t take my sarcasm as criticism, just provocative to stir the debate. It’s a good discussion, and honestly you do make a point and I am going to try to apply that in the future.

I "get" both sides of the argument and, yes Joe, you did have a unique circumstance where you knew $1 more would win it. That said, I may NOT have bid that extra buck because most times I'm thinking "Please, don't take my max bid to win!"

Case in point was a pinback I just won for $17.50 but had a $101.01 snipe on. Yes, I wanted it but it's probably not a $100 pin.

[vintagesportscollector]

Rob – That’s a good point. I too often place snipe bids hoping/praying it doesn’t take that max bid. In your example, that would be like me placing a $125 max bid on the $111.11 item (I previously said I won’t even go as high as $120) and hoping it wouldn’t go that high. If I place a max bid that possibly exceeds that value that I even place on the item – but place that bid to be extra extra extra sure I win it - I too wouldn’t go any higher. BUT, in my example no way was I going to lose placing a matching high bid, but still losing out - that just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.:o

[perezfan]

That "early bid" scenario is still flawed. If you plop down your highest bid early in the game, you are giving competing bidders much more time to act upon it. Why reveal your hand so early? There is absolutely no competitive advantage to doing so. You are just giving the "competition" an increased ability to top you.

Another problem is for those of us with "finite" budgets. If I win something unexpectedly early in the week, I may have less money to spend on the auction in question. No problem... I just reduce (or cancel) the snipe amount. It takes all of 15 seconds. Same holds true if a Catalogue comes in the mail that week.. and the eBay item subsequently loses some of its lustre.

I've changed snipe amounts as many as 6 times per week... and really don't think it's contributed towards killing the hobby! ;)

[egri]

I've always sniped to prevent other people from outbidding me, but also because I don't want to be locked in to paying a certain amount for an item six days before the auction ends. I like having the flexibility of being able to lower or cancel my bid in case something in better shape/higher up on my wantlist/cheaper comes along.

[cfhofer]

Makes complete sense for buyers to snipe. Most of us agree on that. However, the lifeline of our hobby is the steady infusion of high quality material into the market - which clearly has either dried up, listed with an insane BIN, and/or moved to other auction sites. If snipe bidding isn't causing this shift, than what is?

Curious what the sellers on this forum think.

[vintagesportscollector]

Makes complete sense for buyers to snipe. Most of us agree on that. However, the lifeline of our hobby is the steady infusion of high quality material into the market - which clearly has either dried up, listed with an insane BIN, and/or moved to other auction sites. If snipe bidding isn't causing this shift, than what is?

Curious what the sellers on this forum think.

I feel like this has been asked and answered already. Perezfan and others brought up great points, plus I feel sellers have become more sensitive to price, with great awareness of market value, and do not wish to give items away below market value with a crap shoot regular ebay auction.

[Lordstan]

I don't think there is a lack or decrease of high quality stuff being sold. I think there is just less of it on ebay. I think the biggest reason is that small sellers would rather wait on getting paid by a large auction house than deal with the hassle that ebay has become for all but the largest sellers.

I think the fact that less is on ebay and more in AH's has led to more people no longer putting in the search time on ebay and just waiting for the AHs to come around. This has led to lower final prices on ebay and more people just using BIN with BO and waiting for the right offer to come around.

[ooo-ribay]

I don't think there is a lack or decrease of high quality stuff being sold. I think there is just less of it on ebay. I think the biggest reason is that small sellers would rather wait on getting paid by a large auction house than deal with the hassle that ebay has become for all but the largest sellers.

I think the fact that less is on ebay and more in AH's has led to more people no longer putting in the search time on ebay and just waiting for the AHs to come around. This has led to lower final prices on ebay and more people just using BIN with BO and waiting for the right offer to come around.

Some people would say I don't deal in "high quality stuff" to begin with since I concentrate on a team that has only been around for 57 years. Whatever you call the stuff I collect, I can't even find rare or unusual stuff very often on ebay anymore. 99% of what I see is either less than 10 years old or extremely common. I do my 50+ searches once every six days and I more often than not find nothing I want to bid on. I'll watch items I already have but usually only find maybe two items a month to bid on. :(

[egri]

I'm thinking maybe the rare and unusual stuff you're looking for went into personal collections. Personally, I'm planning on keeping all my stuff until I kick the bucket, at which point my kids may or may not sell, so what I have won't hit the market for several decades at least. Maybe it's the same thing at work here.

[Lordstan]

Some people would say I don't deal in "high quality stuff" to begin with since I concentrate on a team that has only been around for 57 years. Whatever you call the stuff I collect, I can't even find rare or unusual stuff very often on ebay anymore. 99% of what I see is either less than 10 years old or extremely common. I do my 50+ searches once every six days and I more often than not find nothing I want to bid on. I'll watch items I already have but usually only find maybe two items a month to bid on. :(

Rob,
You are absolutely correct. "high quality Stuff" is a relative term. A rare SF pin may be a holy grail to you, but not to me. I meant no disrespect to anything anyone collects.
My point is that sniping isn't the reason stuff doesn't seem to be as commonly found on ebay. I think your situation is a little different than my example. Your SF collection is so advanced that the things you needs are going to be really really rare. Even if they aren't super expensive, the likely hood of you finding these things is small regardless. 20yrs ago, when ebay first started, I would be willing to bet,you had a much larger want list then than now. It stands to reason the more advance a collector or collection the slower it can be added to.

[Scott Garner]

Not to hijack this thread because it is about sniping, but what Mark just said is also true of The National. Although I still love going to The National, the buying experience is not as fertile for finding items on my want list simply because the list is getting much shorter as my collection becomes more and more advanced.
Just sayin'...

Still, you never know what you might find...
The thrill is still in the hunt! ;) :D

This has ended up being a very good thread, BTW

[cfhofer]

Aren't their some items you need for your collections that the amount you would be willing to pay is $10-20 more than anyone else? Not to sound arrogant but there are just certain pieces we need that are worth overpaying for.

I know a few collectors who snipe $2000-4000 on every item, even ones which are worth only a few hundred dollars. Why? Because they are playing a game of Russian roulette that you won't be as crazy as them. This ensures they get that piece by paying $10-20 more than you. They can get away with that only because of the hard-ending.

Some of the reasons given above for snipe bidding should apply to auctions with a soft-ending too. Yet action on auctions with a soft-ending is much better throughout the listing period. Take a look at the current Leland’s auction. Why the difference? As a seller, which style would you have more confidence in?

[vintagesportscollector]

I know a few collectors who snipe $2000-4000 on every item, even ones which are worth only a few hundred dollars. Why? Because they are playing a game of Russian roulette that you won't be as crazy as them. This ensures they get that piece by paying $10-20 more than you. They can get away with that only because of the hard-ending...

...action on auctions with a soft-ending is much better throughout the listing period. Take a look at the current Leland’s auction. Why the difference?

1) ...and, they can get away with that too because of very deep pockets and can afford to exceed the market and not worry if they overpay or if auction gets out of control and starts to approach their max. I would only do that if my "Holy Grail" popped up, otherwise my pockets 'aint that deep and my "stones" 'aint that big.

2) ...many people place bids on soft-ending auctions at AHs to get in on the extended bidding. They are still usually not showing their true hand but placing a minimal increment bid that they would happily win the lot at if it were to hold up. It's a minimal place holder bid.

[Lordstan]

What Joe just said above is very true in both cases.

1) Those people who bid $2000-$4000 even on a few hundred dollar item are playing, what could be, a very expensive game of Russian Roulette. What happens if 5 items, ending around the same time, all valued at $400 wind up close to their max for one reason or another? Are they going to be happy shelling out $10K min for items worth $2K? I doubt it, but if they have the money to waste, good for them.
Here is a personal story regarding this situation. I was bidding on a 1934 Signed Goudey of KiKi Cuyler, a few years ago, I figured it was going to take around $1200-1400 to win it. I bid a little early and was winning at $1200 with 2min to go. All of a sudden I am second. I was the only person who bid again up until the end and I bid 4 more times to take the price up to $1960. I just couldn't let myself go higher and lost it. The person who won it, must've been like your friends, set a really high bid to make sure he won. Do you really think he thought it was going to go for $1960? I doubt it, but he took a chance. The best part for me is that I won a better quality Cuyler signed card about 6months later for $400 less.

2) You must bid early in soft ending AHs so that you can bid in the extended bidding time period. I find it's better to bid early on those, so you don't accidentally miss the time

[ooo-ribay]

Rob,
You are absolutely correct. "high quality Stuff" is a relative term. A rare SF pin may be a holy grail to you, but not to me. I meant no disrespect to anything anyone collects.


None taken..it didn't even cross my mind.

My point is that sniping isn't the reason stuff doesn't seem to be as commonly found on ebay. I think your situation is a little different than my example. Your SF collection is so advanced that the things you needs are going to be really really rare. Even if they aren't super expensive, the likely hood of you finding these things is small regardless. 20yrs ago, when ebay first started, I would be willing to bet,you had a much larger want list then than now. It stands to reason the more advance a collector or collection the slower it can be added to.

Very good points. When I started with ebay in 1998, I was like a kid in a candy store. I'm sure I bought stuff back then that I would pass up now. That said, I did acquire some really good stuff in the early days...stuff I haven't seen since.

Back to topic...sniping MAY have a small part in ebay "drying up." Prices realized probably are a bit lower in that the "dammit! you're NOT going to beat me" bids have become more rare.

[Jewish-collector]

3 things to remember:

There's always someone who has more money to spend for a specific auction item.

The item you really want will be in another auction very soon, perhaps a few weeks or a few months.

As Tom Cruise in the movie Risky Business said, "Sometimes you gotta say...."

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink004.gif

[cfhofer]

There are 3.5 million items on eBay under the 'Sports Memorabilia, Cards and Fan Shop' category, yet only 101k are auctions. That means 98% of all sports memorabilia listed on eBay are BIN. Hard-endings is a primary reason for this shift.

Regarding AH action, almost all require a bid 24 hours before the soft-ending. That doesn't explain the action 2-3 weeks beforehand.

[Lordstan]

There are 3.5 million items on eBay under the 'Sports Memorabilia, Cards and Fan Shop' category, yet only 101k are auctions. That means 98% of all sports memorabilia listed on eBay are BIN. Hard-endings is a primary reason for this shift.

Regarding AH action, almost all require a bid 24 hours before the soft-ending. That doesn't explain the action 2-3 weeks beforehand.
I think that action might just be a number of bidders getting their initial bids in combined with a few people who may try to bid big at the beginning to try and scare everyone off.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yes, eventually there is a max price you are willing to pay, of course there is, but everyone finds it that easy to lock in their max price up front?? Maybe it’s just me…(my wife says I am too emotional :o).

In Theory, Travis, I hear what you are saying. I suppose MY problem is determining exactly the highest amount I am willing to pay or the “that’s enough not 1 penny more” point as you have described. BUT maybe that is just me and most everyone else finds that as EASY as you describe it. I admit I am flawed – call me human. My recent experience that I described is unique and specific (its not always as clear as $1 more will win it). Do you think I should have not bid the extra $1? (BTW - I am looking at the item now on my desk and really glad I won it).

But let me ask you this again? You go through your thought process to come up with your highest amount, following the steps you described for an item you really want. You’re perfect so you know you have confidently figured out your highest amount, because it is an exact science they way you described it. You snipe your bid and are losing but realize if you bid 1 penny more you would win it…would you bid the extra penny? You don’t have to answer because I am sure your response would be your bid would have already thought about that penny.

How many people out there have set a snipe bid and change/raised it at some point?

Edited to add: BTW, Travis, please don’t take my sarcasm as criticism, just provocative to stir the debate. It’s a good discussion, and honestly you do make a point and I am going to try to apply that in the future.



The one thing about being outbid by a dollar and not knowing exactly what exact dollar you will bid up too isn't a big deal when there will be the same type card up for auction again.....if its one of kind that's one thing but most things are ebay you can find again eventually...so losing out on a dollar isn't a big deal when can bid again on the same type of item again and maybe even get for less...or if lose..can then bid a few months later.....theres always another auction.....so don't worry about a margin of error in to what exact high dollar you were willing to offer.....you will have the opportunity to bid at another auction...heck I see 'winners' of a card try to resell the same exact card again which then sells for less at that auction (cause the former 'winner' isn't bidding on it anymore ) plus ebay fees they have to pay..

[vintagesportscollector]

That makes a lot of sense Jake, agreed. In my case the memorabilia item was pretty much one of a kind, in that I had never seen it in twenty years of collecting, and wouldn't expect to ever see it again. If it is a commodity like a card, or a mass produced memorabilia item, then totally agree with what you are saying.

[1952boyntoncollector]

That makes a lot of sense Jake, agreed. In my case the memorabilia item was pretty much one of a kind, in that I had never seen it in twenty years of collecting, and wouldn't expect to ever see it again. If it is a commodity like a card, or a mass produced memorabilia item, then totally agree with what you are saying.

right well if you want something bad and its something that comes up one time in 20 years..than there really isn't a market price......

[kmac32]

I routinely snipe as it prevents me from getting shilled. Generally works and if it doesn't work, the person that outsnipes me pays a higher price. The key is not to set your bid any higher than what you are actually willing to pay for an item.

Recently was after a common for my W572 set. Bid on a card that was worth around $70. I really wanted the card but could not be by a computer so bid $125.00 as my highest bid. Somebody sniped the card but he paid dearly for it at $127.50. Now if could have been lurking in the shadows, I could have bid with 3 seconds left and probably would have got the card at a semi reasonable price.

The point is that sniping has it's place and the element of suprise can get you an item at a lower price and if you do not win, it will cost your competition $$$.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I routinely snipe as it prevents me from getting shilled. Generally works and if it doesn't work, the person that outsnipes me pays a higher price. The key is not to set your bid any higher than what you are actually willing to pay for an item.

Recently was after a common for my W572 set. Bid on a card that was worth around $70. I really wanted the card but could not be by a computer so bid $125.00 as my highest bid. Somebody sniped the card but he paid dearly for it at $127.50. Now if could have been lurking in the shadows, I could have bid with 3 seconds left and probably would have got the card at a semi reasonable price.

The point is that sniping has it's place and the element of suprise can get you an item at a lower price and if you do not win, it will cost your competition $$$.

I don't know about you but I get about as much joy as winning an item for a price that was in market price range but the low range as I do getting 'outbid' and that bid puts the sale above the high end of the market range..

[murphusa]

A spalding first basement trophy went for $5770 today. The price rose $2770 in the last 2 seconds

[bobfreedman]

A spalding first basement trophy went for $5770 today. The price rose $2770 in the last 2 seconds

I was the direct underbidder and was shocked to lose it by that big of another snipe.

[perezfan]

While this may seem off topic, it's not...

One of the reasons cited for the decrease of quality memorabilia on eBay is that much of it is now mired in advanced collections. These collectors are not willing to part with "the good stuff" and have no interest in flipping it. The increasing scarcity is what causes the higher prices... not sniping. It's a simple case of demand exceeding the available supply.

Spalding Trophies (while always rare/desirable) used to turn up routinely in the catalog auctions, at the National, and on eBay. The one that closed today was the first one in what seemed like an eternity. These spectacular trophies have simply dried up, and because of that, the prices rise.

Conversely, some things that were previously thought to be rare (Stanford Pottery, certain Bobbleheads, 1940s Split-Finger Gloves) have proven to be fairly common. So those prices have dropped. It's simple supply and demand. The Spalding probably would've climbed even higher if sniping wasn't an option.

[vintagesportscollector]

There are 3.5 million items on eBay under the 'Sports Memorabilia, Cards and Fan Shop' category, yet only 101k are auctions. That means 98% of all sports memorabilia listed on eBay are BIN. Hard-endings is a primary reason for this shift.

Regarding AH action, almost all require a bid 24 hours before the soft-ending. That doesn't explain the action 2-3 weeks beforehand.

As Mark V. stated earlier, I bid a minimal bid weeks in advance so that I don't forget. Usually by the time the auction comes to the final day I lose interest in most items I bid on. For Hunts online, for example, on the opening days I place a low bid on dozens of items sometimes, and they never ever hold up, but I do it so that I dont foget. Most items I lose interest in.

[vintagesportscollector]

I was the direct underbidder and was shocked to lose it by that big of another snipe.

Bob, Mark made an interesting point that the trophy may have climbed higher if sniping wasn't an option. Would you have gone higher if you were outbid earlier?

[vintagesportscollector]

While this may seem off topic, it's not...

One of the reasons cited for the decrease of quality memorabilia on eBay is that much of it is now mired in advanced collections. These collectors are not willing to part with "the good stuff" and have no interest in flipping it. The increasing scarcity is what causes the higher prices... not sniping. It's a simple case of demand exceeding the available supply.

Spalding Trophies (while always rare/desirable) used to turn up routinely in the catalog auctions, at the National, and on eBay. The one that closed today was the first one in what seemed like an eternity. These spectacular trophies have simply dried up, and because of that, the prices rise.

Conversely, some things that were previously thought to be rare (Stanford Pottery, certain Bobbleheads, 1940s Split-Finger Gloves) have proven to be fairly common. So those prices have dropped. It's simple supply and demand. The Spalding probably would've climbed even higher if sniping wasn't an option.

With prices like these I wonder if we'll start to see more of these trophies pried away from collections.

[bobfreedman]

Bob, Mark made an interesting point that the trophy may have climbed higher if sniping wasn't an option. Would you have gone higher if you were outbid earlier?

Possibly, had I been in a bidding war at night, common sense may have prevailed and I not go that high. In retrospect, I am glad I did not win and pay that much for a trophy that generally sells in the $3500 range. This may have been the case where snipes actually helped an auction out?

Sniping is just another method of bidding strategy. Sometimes you win and the price is good for the buyer and bad for the seller and sometimes vice versa. I do not think sniping is bad for the hobby as prices and bidding always find there market value generally speaking.

Personally I believe nothing is killing the hobby. I have seen prices do nothing but rise across the board. Photos? Ad Pieces? Pennants? You name it, quality stuff always will be in demand. Just my two cents

[drcy]

It could say that many things are wrecking eBay, but not the hobby itself. Though eBay used to be a major venue.

[cfhofer]

Just depends on if you think eBay is/was vital to our hobby. 10-15 years ago the pieces that were coming up for auction on eBay was simply amazing. EBay made our hobby accessible to everyone, even the non-collector. People who didn't have a clue about sports memorabilia were listing items daily. Collectors didn't need to look elsewhere for quality pieces. I think we can all agree those golden days are gone.

EBay is now a huge dumping ground, with a rare diamond in a sea of turds. With 98% of sports memorabilia listed at a fixed price eBay's auctions (and snipe bids) have become irrelevant to the hobby. Either the pieces have dried up (which seems the majority opinion here) or sellers have just abandoned eBay auctions (my hopeful opinion).

[1952boyntoncollector]

well I don't think its good for the people who 'didn't have a clue' were selling in the old days...sounds like they were getting a raw deal...if it means now that the sellers now are getting fair prices I don't think its bad that sellers aren't getting ripped off....and im a buyer mostly..

[vintagesportscollector]

Just depends on if you think eBay is/was vital to our hobby. 10-15 years ago the pieces that were coming up for auction on eBay was simply amazing. EBay made our hobby accessible to everyone, even the non-collector. People who didn't have a clue about sports memorabilia were listing items daily. Collectors didn't need to look elsewhere for quality pieces. I think we can all agree those golden days are gone.

EBay is now a huge dumping ground, with a rare diamond in a sea of turds. With 98% of sports memorabilia listed at a fixed price eBay's auctions (and snipe bids) have become irrelevant to the hobby. Either the pieces have dried up (which seems the majority opinion here) or sellers have just abandoned eBay auctions (my hopeful opinion).

Not sure what your agenda is, but you seem to have a lot of hatred toward ebay - albeit much of it I agree is justified. You make good points, but for me ebay auctions are far from being irrelevant to my hobby/collection. It certainly is harder to search and find items, and requires more patience, but I am still purchasing many items on eBay through auctions. Maybe not all gems, and mostly smalls, but still adding valued items to my collection. It seems many people on here are continuously posting some quality items that they picked up on eBay. Golden Days gone? Yes. Irrelevant to the hobby? No, not in my opinion, at least for my hobby.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Not sure what your agenda is, but you seem to have a lot of hatred toward ebay - albeit much of it I agree is justified. You make good points, but for me ebay auctions are far from being irrelevant to my hobby/collection. It certainly is harder to search and find items, and requires more patience, but I am still purchasing many items on eBay through auctions. Maybe not all gems, and mostly smalls, but still adding valued items to my collection. It seems many people on here are continuously posting some quality items that they picked up on eBay. Golden Days gone? Yes. Irrelevant to the hobby? No, not in my opinion, at least for my hobby.

plus how many people here on B/S/T who are pretty knowledgeable collectors with nice wares inevitably say 'sent to ebay' and post the link........seems like good as ever..

[cfhofer]

No agenda, just a discussion on the hobby. I would prefer a shift from AH listings (with 30-40% buyers premiums) back to eBay auctions.

[mjkm90]

Couldn't agree more with Mark, Joe, and others that NOTHING is killing the hobby. Now, there is frustration over lack of material hitting the market and those markets have, in some cases, matured, peaked, bottomed, adjusted to the broader economy. or temporarily dried up.

The Spalding is a perfect example. These are but a few examples of amazing artistry in our hobby. Regardless of how many I have seen over the years, I always appreciate them and they are just the tip of the figural collecting iceberg. Few pieces have the WOW factor :eek: of a Spalding to a collector who sees them for the first time. Remember...we are ole farts in the collecting world and there are youngsters entering their solid earning years who will experience the same awe we did. Put your good stuff out there and protect it with reserves etc. and see what happens.

I believe the market for quality will be timeless and nuances and frustrations with selling venues will come and go over time. If you love something, you will find a way to win an auction or jump a sale.

Here I am the day MY Spalding arrived years ago and one of my children mocking me LOL :D

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/mjkm90/IMG_1786.jpg (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/mjkm90/media/IMG_1786.jpg.html)

[cfhofer]

Great final points Mike! Congrats on a fantastic piece too.

I notice you are from Ann Arbor. I have a website dedicated to early Univ of Michigan football memorabilia (mostly autographs and photos). Check it out sometime: vintageuofm.tripod.com

Thanks for the discussion gentlemen. It has been an honor chatting with you.

[Jewish-collector]

cfhofer - Nice website of Michigan FB memorabilia. I used to collect Jewish FB memorabilia, a lot were from Univ of Michigan (Benny Friedman, Harry Newman, etc,...)

[ooo-ribay]

Just depends on if you think eBay is/was vital to our hobby. 10-15 years ago the pieces that were coming up for auction on eBay was simply amazing. EBay made our hobby accessible to everyone, even the non-collector. People who didn't have a clue about sports memorabilia were listing items daily. Collectors didn't need to look elsewhere for quality pieces. I think we can all agree those golden days are gone.

EBay is now a huge dumping ground, with a rare diamond in a sea of turds. With 98% of sports memorabilia listed at a fixed price eBay's auctions (and snipe bids) have become irrelevant to the hobby. Either the pieces have dried up (which seems the majority opinion here) or sellers have just abandoned eBay auctions (my hopeful opinion).

I don't know about "irrelevant" but I basically agree. Problem is, the auction houses rarely have what I'm after either. I don't want pre-war but I do want quality, last half 20th century.

[megalimey]

EBAY sniping is something sellers are aware of
you have some thing desirable especially a vintage mile stone baseball ticket
listed correctly will get some action and always late near end of auction
for example Sandy Koufax first game victory ticket starting at 99 cents no reserve , with less than 5 minutes to go was at $275
at end of auction winning bid was a whopping $3765.00 an incredible increase in the dying seconds tell me that seller was not happy so bring on the snipers