Lefty Grove(s)?

[djson1]

I'm sure some of you have seen this, but on the PSA/DNA site, they have an example of Lefty Grove's 1925 signature. But the signature clearly says "Groves" with an "s".

Does anybody know if he ever signed his last name "Groves"? I did a quick search on his name, but I haven't come up with anything that indicates he changed his name from Groves to Grove.

http://www.psacard.com/AutographFacts/AutographDetail/323/lefty-grove

http://www.psacard.com/ResourceImages/1925-lefty-grove-signature-3.jpg

[Lordstan]

That is horrible. That isn't a Lefty Grove signature. Look at the e's. He never did the loop style, even in the middle of his first name. So why would he change both his name and the way he writes his "e"s/ Answer: He wouldn't

[jerseygary]

Can't say if this signature is real or not -

The scholarship goes back and forth on whether he was born Grove or Groves. I think the most recent book has his birth name with the "s" and his relatives used that spelling as well. He did go by "Groves" when he was with the Baltimore Orioles beginning in 1920. If you read the newspapers from the time or look in the Spalding Guides it has the "s" spelling. The super-rare 1921 Tip Top Bread card has it as "Groves". Sportswriters left off the "s" so many times it just officially became his accepted name sometime before he joined the Athletics. As late as 1927 he was still referred to as "Groves".

[RelicSports]

I concur with Gary. I read one of Lefty's biographies (by Kaplan), and indeed his last name was Groves...but as he started to become well known (per the book, after his 4th year in the majors) most baseball publications started leaving off the "s" and I suppose he just went with it. I agree with the earlier post that the "e's" don't reflect what is seen in almost all Lefty Grove signatures, but since this was quite early and I cannot think of any other early signatrures to compare, I would lean towards saying this early signature is "most likely genuine" ;)

[Lordstan]

OK. So he did change his name, but to me changing the entire way he signs a letter so drastically, seems a bit far for me. Perhaps it did happen, but would seem to be unlikely.

[7nohitter]

OK. So he did change his name, but to me changing the entire way he signs a letter so drastically, seems a bit far for me. Perhaps it did happen, but would seem to be unlikely.

Both Mickey Mantle and Ted Williams changed their signatures dramatically...it happens

[djson1]

I kind of agree with Mark here....the "e" is what throws me off. Plus, according to that PSA site, they say this signature is from 1925. But then I saw this team signed ball from the Baltimore Orioles of the International League. His last year with Baltimore was 1924, yet he signed it "Grove" and it looks consistent with the usual way he signed during his playing days. The only 'if' would be if he signed this team ball AFTER 1924...but the ink looks like the rest of the signatures on the ball.

Does anybody have any other examples of him signing his name "Robert Groves" like above with the looped "e"'s?

[Lordstan]

Andrew,
Both Mantle and Williams signatures did change, but that was over many years. Both of them evolved over 30+yrs and were influenced by the emerging show circuit. It has been documented many times that Mantle refined his signature for the card show scene specifically, and was also well known for the care he took to find the nicest spot to sign(as opposed to Joe D who couldn't care less about it).
This example would be a total change in his style of signing "E"s over only a few years. Personally I think going from a looped E to the more fancy version is a big jump. One would expect that as a person becomes a star and is being asked to sign more autographs that one would change to the easier version of letters, and not the harder one that takes more time to write.
I can't say 100%, but unless someone has some legal document of his signed that way, I won't believe it and wouldn't buy it.


To all,
I'm curious. Does anyone have an exemplar in their files of a documented Grove signed this way? Jim, Richard, Kevin, anyone?


Jason,
Cam you get a close up of the Grove on that ball?
Thanks

Best,
Mark

[7nohitter]

Andrew,
Both Mantle and Williams signatures did change, but that was over many years. Both of them evolved over 30+yrs and were influenced by the emerging show circuit. It has been documented many times that Mantle refined his signature for the card show scene specifically, and was also well known for the care he took to find the nicest spot to sign(as opposed to Joe D who couldn't care less about it).
This example would be a total change in his style of signing "E"s over only a few years. Personally I think going from a looped E to the more fancy version is a big jump. One would expect that as a person becomes a star and is being asked to sign more autographs that one would change to the easier version of letters, and not the harder one that takes more time to write.
I can't say 100%, but unless someone has some legal document of his signed that way, I won't believe it and wouldn't buy it.





Best,
Mark

Mark,
Great points, and I completely agree. I have two Grove autos and the thing that jumped out at me in the above example was the formation of the letter 'e'. I wouldn't buy the above example if offered.

Andrew

[jerseygary]

It might be worth it to check with The Babe Ruth Museum in Baltimore. They had a great archive on the old Baltimore Orioles and that would be the place I'd check to see if there was an old contract or something from his days in Baltimore.

[RelicSports]

I kind of agree with Mark here....the "e" is what throws me off. Plus, according to that PSA site, they say this signature is from 1925. But then I saw this team signed ball from the Baltimore Orioles of the International League. His last year with Baltimore was 1924, yet he signed it "Grove" and it looks consistent with the usual way he signed during his playing days. The only 'if' would be if he signed this team ball AFTER 1924...but the ink looks like the rest of the signatures on the ball.

Does anybody have any other examples of him signing his name "Robert Groves" like above with the looped "e"'s?

Jason,

I believe the ball you referenced (from MEARS auction) is a 1931 Athletics ball. You can make out several key players that hadn't played on the Orioles. I think I even saw a Waite Hoyt sig on the ball.

[jad22]

Here is a 1925 Athletics balls.

http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer_online.cfm?auction_num=18&lot_num=593&lot_qual=

[David Atkatz]

Look at the 1925 ball. I have no doubt the OP's signature is good.

[djson1]

Jason,

I believe the ball you referenced (from MEARS auction) is a 1931 Athletics ball. You can make out several key players that hadn't played on the Orioles. I think I even saw a Waite Hoyt sig on the ball.

Andrew, I think you're right. This does appear to be an Athletics team ball...not Baltimore, as stated in the Mears auction. I think I can even make out an Ed Rommel sig on the other side of the ball.

Mark, here is a larger pic of the part signed by Grove:
http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.com/ItemImages/000088/88541b_lg.jpeg

[djson1]

Here is a 1925 Athletics balls.

http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer_online.cfm?auction_num=18&lot_num=593&lot_qual=

This is a great example...thanks, Joe.

[Lordstan]

Well, I stand/sit corrected. Makes no sense to me the changes he made, but it appears he did make them. Good job guys.