Split-personality of the 350/460 series..re: AB460, BL460, SC460, HINDU & UZIT T206's

[tedzan]

American Lithographic designated 66 subjects for this intermediate 350/460 series in their last press runs of the SOVEREIGN 350 cards (printing them with "apple green"
backs). Were these 66 subjects printed on one sheet ? Or, were they printed in 2 groups on separate sheets. It appears that the 350/460 subjects were indeed printed in
two stages, as is evident in the mutually-exclusive printing pattern of their 460-type backs. Proof of this is provided here (Group 1), and in the following post (Group 2).

OK....T206 production process first pre-printed sheets of the fronts. Followed by printing the various T-brand backs in response to orders from the Tobacco factory's thru
out the U.S. The T206's were cut from the completed sheets and shipped to their respective factory to be inserted in the cigarette packs. A Federal Law required that the
T-brand advertisement backs identify the Factory # and its District for tax purposes.

1st group of the 350/460 series......35 subjects printed with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25

SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42

Red HINDU

BROAD LEAF 460


1......Ames (hands over head)
2......Baker
3......Bender (no trees)
4......M. Brown (Chicago)
5......Chance (portrait-yellow)
6......Chase (blue)
7......Chase (dark cap)
8......Cobb (red portrait)
9......Davis (A's)
10....Donlin (bat)
11....Doolan (bat)
12....Dougherty (arm in air)
13....Downey (bat)
14....Larry Doyle (bat)
15....Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
16....Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
17....Griffith (bat)
18....Johnson (pitching)
19....Joss (pitching)
20....Kleinow (Boston)
21....Konetchy (glove low)
22....Magee (bat)
23....Mathewson (dark cap)
24....McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
25....Murphy (batting)
26....O'Leary (hands on knees)
27....Reulbach (no glove)
28....Rucker (throwing)
29....Seymour (throwing)
30....Snodgrass (catching)
31....Stahl (glove)
32....Street (fielding)
33....Sweeney (fielding)
34....Willis (throwing)
35....CYoung (glove)


PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42......The one exception to this mutually-exclusive rule is the PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 back, which is common to all 63 of these subjects.

Note....Twenty 350/460 series subjects have yet to be confirmed with the LENOX brand. Therefore, I have not included LENOX in this analysis since a discernible pattern
is not quite evident at this time. It's still a work in progress.


The 2nd group of 350/460 subjects continues in the next post here.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

2nd group in the 350/460 series = 28 subjects printed with the AB 460 & UZIT backs. It's significant to note that this 2nd group of 28 subjects are mutually-exclusive with
the 1st group of 35 subjects with respect to their backs. This tells us that these two groups were printed independent of one another on their own sheets.

Furthermore, please note my use of the word "subjects" (instead of cards). We do not actually know how many cards were printed on the standard size sheets. These group
numbers (35 and 28) are rather small. It's very likely that the 1st group of subjects were Double-Printed (D-P) on a 72-card sheet. I have several 350/460 series T206's with
double-same-names....indicative of D-P. Or perhaps, even Triple-Printed on a 108-card sheet. The same multiple printing format applies to the 2nd group of 28 subjects.


2nd group of the 350/460 series......28 subjects printed with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb/Mar 1911).

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (Factory 42)

UZIT


1......Berger
2......Bradley (bat)
3......Burch (fielding)
4......Cobb (bat off)
5......Conroy (bat)
6......Crawford (bat)
7......Jennings (one hand)
8......Jennings (two hands)
9......Jordan (bat)
10....Lajoie (bat)
11....Lake (no ball)
12....Leach (cap)
13....Leifield (bat)
14....Manning (pitching)
15....McQuillan (bat)
16....Mullin (bat)
17....Overall (yellow sky)
18....Pelty (vertical)
19....Pfeister (throwing)
20....Smith (Chicago & Boston)
21....Steinfeldt (bat)
22....Tinker (bat off)
23....Wagner (bat on right)
24....Doc White (pitching)
25....Wilhelm (bat)
26....Willetts
27....Willis (bat)
28....Wiltse (pitching)


PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42......The one exception to this mutually-exclusive rule is the PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 back, which is common to all 63 of these subjects.

Note....Twenty 350/460 series subjects have yet to be confirmed with the LENOX brand. Therefore, I have not included LENOX in this analysis since a discernible pattern
is not quite evident at this time. It's still a work in progress.



TED Z
.

[t206hound]

Furthermore, please note my use of the word "subjects" (instead of cards). We do not actually know how many cards were printed on the standard size sheets. These group
numbers (35 and 28) are rather small. It's very likely that the 1st group of subjects were Double-Printed (D-P) on a 70-card sheet (I have several 350/460 series T206's with
"2 same-names" on them that attest to them D-P). Or perhaps, even Triple-Printed on a 105-card sheet.
TED Z
.

The most recent list of two (different) name cards yields zero instances from any of the 460 printings:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=142480&page=31

Regardless of how many columns there were on a sheet, I would think it is highly probable that each column on the 460 sheets contained the same player thereby only allowing for double (same) name miscuts. That said, someone producing a two-namer with a 460 back would be a quick way to refute that guess.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,
Wanted to acknowledge your research. Need time to process. Have a vacation coming up second week of June so that will be a good time.
Scot

[tedzan]

This is a double (same) name card of Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston). It is from my AB 460 sub-set....and, this card is a very tough AB 460 to find.
I have (or have traded away) several double (same) name cards that have 460-type backs. I'll see what other scans I have available to show.


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/FrankSmithAB460x75_zps19db6516.jpg



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hi Ted,
Wanted to acknowledge your research. Need time to process. Have a vacation coming up second week of June so that will be a good time.
Scot


Thanks....I would appreciate your inputs regarding what I have presented here with respect to the printing of these tougher 460-type backs on the 350/460 series subjects.


Enjoy your vacation.


TED Z
.

[parkerj33]

Ted, is that a typo in your first post? you first say 66 subjects but then go on to list two groups adding up to 63 subjects.....

[tedzan]

Ted, is that a typo in your first post? you first say 66 subjects but then go on to list two groups adding up to 63 subjects.....


Hi Jim

Your question is a good one, and I will clarify.

Shown here is my concept of a simulated sheet of the 66 different subjects in SOVEREIGN 350 apple green printing. Actually, 63 of these 66 subjects that American Litho.
had planned to continue printing with the various 460 Series backs were printed.

Due to the fact that the Major League careers of Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, and Bob Rhoades (seen on this sheet) had ended prior to the time of the 460 series press runs.
Therefore, these 3 guys were discontinued.


Note....If your computer screen displays only 6 cards per row on this 72-card simulated sheet, decrease the image (Control - ) until there are 12 cards across the display.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta12x.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte12x.jpg




TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Initial reaction: Your 35 Group 1 subjects correspond with the AB 460 "no prints" identified on T206 Resource, except that your Group 1 includes Ames. So I am going to tentatively agree with you that your Group 1 subjects were printed together--probably on the same sheet--with the caveat that Ames was likely swapped-in for Dougherty on that sheet midstream as Chris Browne as suggested elsewhere. Thus, I am going to accept 34 subject sheets as most likely, with the understanding that we may part company on that. More reaction later.

Scot

[tedzan]

Double Post.

[tedzan]

Hi Ted,

Initial reaction: Your 35 Group 1 subjects correspond with the AB 460 "no prints" identified on T206 Resource, except that your Group 1 includes Ames. So I am going to tentatively agree with you that your Group 1 subjects were printed together--probably on the same sheet--with the caveat that Ames was likely swapped-in for Dougherty on that sheet midstream as Chris Browne as suggested elsewhere. Thus, I am going to accept 34 subject sheets as most likely, with the understanding that we may part company on that. More reaction later.

Scot


With all due respect to Chris B's suggestion. I have to differ with his swapping games regarding Ames and Dougherty. There is no justification for ALC switching these guys.
Their careers did not change during the T206 timeline (1909 - early 1911). Ames played with the Giants and Dougherty with the White Sox. And, as we've seen throughout
the make up of the T206 set, where ALC has modified certain subjects in their printing there was valid reasons (trades, retirements, etc.). Replacing Ames with Dougherty
sounds like an unwarranted arbitrary change, which in my opinion did not occur.

Ames has been confirmed with both the SWEET CAP 460/25 and SWEET CAP 460/42 backs. ALC's printing pattern regarding these two backs correlates with the red HINDU
backs. The red ink is exactly the same on all 3 of these backs. And, it would not surprise me if ALC printed all 3 of these backs simultaneously on this group of 35 subjects.

In the past year, Murphy & Dougherty were discovered with red HINDU backs; and, I expect that Ames will eventually surface with a red HINDU back (and/or BL 460 back).

Furthermore, the red HINDU story is not complete yet. There are 3 other subjects that have yet to be confirmed with red HINDU backs......

Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

So, my expectations regarding Ames are not just my "wild imagination" in overdrive.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

I had more of these 460 series double same name cards, but I traded them away. They certainly do lend credence to the fact that these T206's were Double-Printed on their sheet.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SchleiDblSameName50x.jpg. .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/GeyerSmithDblSameName50x.jpg



TED Z

.

[Pat R]

Ted,

If you're talking about the vertical rows I think most of us would
agree that all the subjects were at least triple printed on most if not
all sheets.The double name, two name, plate scratch ect..... are pretty
good evidence to support this.

Patrick

[t206hound]

I had more of these 460 series double same name cards, but I traded them away. They certainly do lend credence to the fact that these T206's were Double-Printed on their sheet.

TED Z

.

Yes, just like every other series of T206, there were multiples of the same subject stacked vertically. I believe it was very likely that four or more of each subject stacked.

When I see/hear the the term "double-print", I assume that is in reference to twice of many of one subject appearing on the sheet than other subjects. If I've been using that term wrong, please let me know what term I should be using.

[tedzan]

Ted,

If you're talking about the vertical rows I think most of us would
agree that all the subjects were at least triple printed on most if not
all sheets.The double name, two name, plate scratch ect..... are pretty
good evidence to support this.

Patrick

Pat

Yes, we are all in agreement with this vertical printing format of T206's. But, have you ever seen any evidence of horizontal multiple printing of T206's ?

The back of my T205 Collins confirms that American Litho. also double-printed cards horizontally (at least T205's). Are there any examples of this with T206's ?



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T205collinsmiscut50x.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T205collinsWCbk50x.jpg


TED Z
.

[t206hound]

Pat

Yes, we are all in agreement with this vertical printing format of T206's. But, have you ever seen any evidence of horizontal multiple printing of T206's ?

The back of my T205 Collins confirms that American Litho. also double-printed cards horizontally (at least T205's). Are there any examples of this with T206's ?



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T205collinsmiscut50x.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T205collinsWCbk50x.jpg


TED Z
.

First off, that's an awesome card.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no known instances of the same subject adjacent horizontally (and until now I hadn't seen a T205 like that). With regards to double printing on a sheet, absence of a side-by-side subject T206 example doesn't necessarily mean it didn't occur; and note that there would also be the possibility of the same subject horizontally, but just not adjacent.

[Pat R]

Pat

Yes, we are all in agreement with this vertical printing format of T206's. But, have you ever seen any evidence of horizontal multiple printing of T206's ?

The back of my T205 Collins confirms that American Litho. also double-printed cards horizontally (at least T205's). Are there any examples of this with T206's ?



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T205collinsmiscut50x.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T205collinsWCbk50x.jpg


TED Z
.

Ted,

I haven't seen any evidence of horizontals of the same T206 subject
on a sheet but I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility.

BTW that Collins is a really neat card.


Patrick

[tedzan]

Yes, it's a "pretty" card in a strange way. Glad you guys like it.

When I acquired this Collins nine years ago, I had to find out which T205 guy was adjacent to it. I must of compared its back to half the cards (100+) in my set with no match.
Then, a "little bird" told me to compare it to the same Collins card in my set. Well I'll be darned.....it matched exactly. This really surprised me, since I never would of guessed
that these cards were double-printed sideways.


Pat & Erick

The only miscut T206 that I know of is the yellow Chance with a hint of the red Cobb to the right of it. Do you guys have a list of all the known miscut T206 fronts that show a
hint of their adjacent cards ?



TED Z
.

[t206hound]

Pat & Erick

The only miscut T206 that I know of is the yellow Chance with a hint of the red Cobb to the right of it. Do you guys have a list of all the known miscut T206 fronts that show a
hint of their adjacent cards ?

TED Z
.

The primary way we know of adjacency is through ghosts (like the Hartsel-Wilson that I own) and the Lash's overprints, but I've also attached a few of the miscut scans (not mine) that show adjacency. Some of the adjacents are best guesses or unknowns, but they are obviously not the same subject:
Murray - ???
Sheckard - Goode
Stephens - Rossman?
Willis - Wilhelm
Stanage - Livingstone - Howard

[tedzan]

Thanks for the scans of the miscut T206's.


My best guess of which 460 series card was adjacent to the miscut Murray card is Meyers......


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206MurrayMeyers50x.jpg ....OR....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206Bridwell50x.jpg



What is your thinking regarding Murray's neighboring card ?



TED Z
.