Could Brown Lenox Be Related To AB 460?

[Pat R]

They're so scarce it could just be a coincidence but all 22 confirmed Brown
Lenox subjects are among the 75 AB 460 subjects.

[Pat R]

Yes I am bumping a thread that is over 8 years old with no posts in it but it's to finally share some information that I have been keeping to myself mostly for selfish reasons.

When I posted this thread I already knew that a large percentage of the confirmed brown Lenox were from the group of the 28 350/460 subjects that were printed with both the American Beauty 350 no frame and American beauty 460 backs. I think at the time it was it was 17 of the 22 confirmed brown Lenox cards, as of today I have it at 22 of 31 confirmed brown Lenox that are from that group of 28 subjects.

What I didn't know at the time but discovered in a week or two after posting this thread is that (in my opinion) that specific group of 28 subjects were only printed with brown Lenox backs and were not printed with a black Lenox back. I have yet to see one of those subjects with a black Lenox back.


Here is my list of confirmed brown Lenox with the subjects from the group of 28 in bold. Except for Doyle and Davis the rest of the subjects are from the 460 only series and are found with both brown and black Lenox backs.

Bradley (with bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (holding trophy)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (with bat)
Crawford (with bat)
Davis (Davis on front)
Doyle (with bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Jordan (batting)
Lajoie (with bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (bending over)
Leifield (batting
Manning (pitching
Marquard (pitching)
Mcquillan (with bat)
Merkle (throwing)
Overall (hands at face level)
Pfeister (throwing
Schlei (portrait)
Seymour (throwing
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (with bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Willetts
Willis (batting)
Wiltse (portrait)


I have images of the following that are possible brown Lenox but I would have to see better scans or have them in hand to be sure.

Bender (no trees)
Downey (batting)
Griffith (batting)
Schlei (batting)
Tinker (bat on)
White (pitching
Willis (throwing)

The Griffith and Schlei I'm more sure of than the rest the images I have of the others are not very good.

[Leon]

Nice research, Pat!
.

[tedzan]

Back in July 2017, I posted my theory regarding the Brown LENOX phenomena. And this is it, Check-it-out......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects was with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the
printing of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


350/460 series....Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg

Brown LENOX......a total of 25 (or 26) subjects have been confirmed.


350/460 series.....19 (or 20) subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder) ..................remains to be seen ?
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)



T80 cards
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg


So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.


The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)


Let's see your T206 brown LENOX cards. Show them if you have them.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[tedzan]

Furthermore......

Since my above stated theory (circa 2017), I'm batting 1.000. Approx. 7 (or 8) new Brown LENOX cards have been discovered....all of which having conformed to my theory.

NOTE....74 T206's in the set were printed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back, however only these 28 guys from the 350/460 series are printed with the [B]AB 460 back.

350/460 series....Group B (AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards). The remaining 46 are from the 460-only series.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

Back in July 2017, I posted my theory regarding the Brown LENOX phenomena. And this is it, Check-it-out......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects was with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the
printing of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


350/460 series....Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg

Brown LENOX......a total of 25 (or 26) subjects have been confirmed.


350/460 series.....19 (or 20) subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder) ..................remains to be seen ?
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)



T80 cards
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg


So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.


The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)


Let's see your T206 brown LENOX cards. Show them if you have them.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Tinker (bat off)
591373

[tedzan]

Ryan

You provided Brown LENOX confirmation regarding Tinker and Jennings (one hand), and I forgot to include them in my list.

Stay young my friend......my mind is beginning to slip.


So, here is the current complete lists of 27 brown LENOX cards with respect to their Series......

350/460 Series......

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

460-only Series......

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


My expectations are that 8 more will eventually be discovered.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

Nice research, Pat!
.

Thanks Leon but apparently it's Ted's thread and theory now I guess.

[Leon]

Thanks Leon but apparently it's Ted's thread and theory now I guess.

It's your thread, Pat. Ted had information prior also.
You have done more research than 99.5% of collectors. Likewise, with Ted.
I have always considered the forum a collaborative effort.
.

[FrankWakefield]

Ted, Pat, double thanks to both of you.


As to the printer failing to change the ink for the backs... I'd think it was a conscious decision. It's a pain to scrape the previous ink out of the pan, and then clean everything. And then put different ink in there. It would be easier, take less time, and slightly more cost effective to use what brown ink you had in the pan, and then add black as the brown was used. There may be cards out there that are mainly black, but just ever so slightly brownish black.

[Sean]

There may be cards out there that are mainly black, but just ever so slightly brownish black.

Oh my God, this may be true but don't get this started. By next week every seller of a slightly faded black Lenox on eBay will be claiming that their card is 30% Brown Lenox.

[Rhotchkiss]

I think both Ted and Pat are massive assets. Plus, it’s fun to read the bickering something. Keep on posting guys!

[Pat R]

Ted, Pat, double thanks to both of you.


As to the printer failing to change the ink for the backs... I'd think it was a conscious decision. It's a pain to scrape the previous ink out of the pan, and then clean everything. And then put different ink in there. It would be easier, take less time, and slightly more cost effective to use what brown ink you had in the pan, and then add black as the brown was used. There may be cards out there that are mainly black, but just ever so slightly brownish black.

Hi Frank,

I think for the most part it has to do with when they were printed and/or what facility they were printed at. I think the Sub Rosa's in the T59 set which were printed in the same timeframe as the T206's are a good comparison to the T206 Lenox.

The color variations in the T59 set is something that is discussed on a regular basis among those that collect them. Many people think most if not all of the questionable color variations are the result of fading or a chemical reaction. The more research I do on the Sub Rosa's the more I think the color variations found on that particular back are the result of different inks.

I still have a lot more research to do on it but almost all of the Brown variations that I have seen come from two out of a possible 14 different factory and series combinations.

Factory 129 is found on series 2, 3, and 4 and all of the brown backs that I have seen are from the 4th series.

591464

Factory 229 is found on all 4 series and all but one possible brown series 3 that I have seen the rest are from the series 2

591465

591466

Factory 606 is also found on all 4 series and I've yet to see any brown factory 606 backs.

591469

Factory 649 is found on series 1 and 2 only and to me most of these have a faded grayish tint to them but I have yet to see one of these that look brown to me.

591468

As I stated above I still have a lot more research to do on these but if the brown found on this back was do to fading in my opinion they would be found on more than two specific backs and factories.

[G1911]

I believe brown to only exist on subsections of 129 and 229 in the later series. Pretty confident 606 and 649 do not come this way, with 649 being a 'lighter black'.

Black doesn't normally fade to brown on these T cards - for example, Recruit black T59 is one of the most common of all T card combinations. They don't really come in brown though, despite allegations they do. I've had thousands of them, not a single brown. I've spent years scouring T68 black RB backs and can't locate a single brown one that has also been alleged to exist. Black can create a brownish appearance from certain uncommon chemical reactions, but I cannot make black T cards fade to brown via light in my experimenting. If a back is routinely found brown, I feel comfortable behaving as if it was printed a different color; a single or very small number of one offs, particularly if bearing glue damage, are probably altered blacks.

Just my 2 cents, probably worth a penny.

[tedzan]

To reiterate...regarding my connection of the Brown LENOX cards to AB 460 (and UZIT) cards....it goes back to my discovery of the Mutually-Exclusive factor
of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 Series. I presented this phenomena on Net54 circa 2010. Since pictures speak louder than "1000 words", illustrated here
are the 63 subjects in their respective group.

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MurphySweetCap460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSweetCap460x42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/broadleaf460back.jpg
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesKonet21cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MageeYoung14cards14x.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmericanBeauty460b34.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460


Therefore, I maintain that the brown LENOX subjects were (accidently) being printed ONLY during American Lithograph's press run(s) of Group B T206's.

I have predicted correctly more than 12 brown LENOX cards since I came up with this theory.

Let us see how long my Batting Average will continue to remain "1.000" :)


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.




.

[Pat R]

To reiterate...regarding my connection of the Brown LENOX cards to AB 460 (and UZIT) cards....it goes back to my discovery of the Mutually-Exclusive factor
of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 Series. I presented this phenomena on Net54 circa 2010. Since pictures speak louder than "1000 words", illustrated here
are the 63 subjects in their respective group.

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MurphySweetCap460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSweetCap460x42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/broadleaf460back.jpg
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesKonet21cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MageeYoung14cards14x.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmericanBeauty460b34.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460


Therefore, I maintain that the brown LENOX subjects were (accidently) being printed ONLY during American Lithograph's press run(s) of Group B T206's.

I have predicted correctly more than 12 brown LENOX cards since I came up with this theory.

Let us see how long my Batting Average will continue to remain "1.000" :)


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.




.


With many assists from "modified scan" and "corrected typo".

Here's a brown Lenox from group A

591594

591595

[MVSNYC]

Pat,

Is that a Brown Lenox or Black? Labeled Black.

Here's my example...

[Pat R]

Pat,

Is that a Brown Lenox or Black? Labeled Black.

Here's my example...

If the scans are accurate it is 100% brown Mike. Some scans/pictures can make a black Lenox look like it's possibly brown that's why if I can I try to compare it to another Lenox from the same seller/auction.

Here's the Doyle compared to A black Lenox from the same auction. Both PSA and SGC have incorrectly labeled Brown Lenox as black or generic Lenox that were eventually corrected to brown.

591611

[steve B]

I think both Ted and Pat are massive assets. Plus, it’s fun to read the bickering something. Keep on posting guys!

Agreed, both are doing great work.

The bickering is important. If an idea can't stand up to some bickering it's probably not right anyway.

[steve B]

I don't think they made a mistake and simply transitioned from doing Broadleaf to Lenox then corrected.

While it is a nuisance to swap inks, I would think it was a bigger nuisance to swap out what was likely a 200+lb stone, bring in a different one, properly align it and continue. Unless conditions were just right the partially dried ink would cause all sorts of problems.

A third suggestion?
Since we can be fairly sure the fronts were printed, then backs added.
AND
Being efficient and delivering multiple brands at about the same time was also likely.

Two presses were in use, possibly next to each other. For whatever reason both were loaded with brown ink until it was noticed that the Lenox ones should have been black and the ink changed out, possibly partly at first. (Much easier to scoop out nearly all the brown and fill with black without a complete washdown. That could probably be done with the press still running. )

There are other possibilities, but they're all extremely unlikely.


The Philatelic foundation now apparently has a spectrometer. If I owned a couple examples, I might be inclined to ask them if they'd be interested in working up some cards. (It would be able to tell between a carbon black ink and a chemical black. And tell if the brown inks were identical or not. ) There's a group doing some of that work on inks and papers that has already put down some longstanding beliefs. Like the inks for the very first US stamp being colored with rust leading to premature plate wear. The spectrograph says..... theres no iron at all there!

[Pat R]

I don't think they made a mistake and simply transitioned from doing Broadleaf to Lenox then corrected.

While it is a nuisance to swap inks, I would think it was a bigger nuisance to swap out what was likely a 200+lb stone, bring in a different one, properly align it and continue. Unless conditions were just right the partially dried ink would cause all sorts of problems.

A third suggestion?
Since we can be fairly sure the fronts were printed, then backs added.
AND
Being efficient and delivering multiple brands at about the same time was also likely.

Two presses were in use, possibly next to each other. For whatever reason both were loaded with brown ink until it was noticed that the Lenox ones should have been black and the ink changed out, possibly partly at first. (Much easier to scoop out nearly all the brown and fill with black without a complete washdown. That could probably be done with the press still running. )

There are other possibilities, but they're all extremely unlikely.


The Philatelic foundation now apparently has a spectrometer. If I owned a couple examples, I might be inclined to ask them if they'd be interested in working up some cards. (It would be able to tell between a carbon black ink and a chemical black. And tell if the brown inks were identical or not. ) There's a group doing some of that work on inks and papers that has already put down some longstanding beliefs. Like the inks for the very first US stamp being colored with rust leading to premature plate wear. The spectrograph says..... theres no iron at all there!


There are hundreds of changes that could have been made in the set that were not made. I think the few changes that were made were because of timing and convenience, I don't think they would have stopped the printing to make new plates or change a color. I think most people forget that they were a premium and not a Bowman, Leaf or Topps set.

I also think some of the changes weren't really changes at all and were the results of different plates and printing presses used at different American Lithograph facility's.

[MVSNYC]

Pat, so you're saying that Doyle is Brown and mislabeled? Is it yours?

[steve B]

There are hundreds of changes that could have been made in the set that were not made. I think the few changes that were made were because of timing and convenience, I don't think they would have stopped the printing to make new plates or change a color. I think most people forget that they were a premium and not a Bowman, Leaf or Topps set.

I also think some of the changes weren't really changes at all and were the results of different plates and printing presses used at different American Lithograph facility's.

I pretty much agree.
I missed that AB460 and Brown Lenox are probably mutually exclusive, so the two presses idea is almost for certain out.

The question then is why the print run was so small?

I can see ALC distributing the transfers to lay out the plates to different facilities, or just the original art, which would explain some of the differences between series and even the ones within series.

But the effort involved for a cheap promotional item to have Lenox done in multiple plants seems like it would be too much.

To me a possibility outside the normal day to day production seems like a possibility.
An error in printing the color, somewhat easily fixed.
Using up old stock seems to make very little sense. but if the transition from 460 group a to group be ended with BL460 group A and began with Lenox group B there would have probably been a bit of leftover brown as well as leftover A sheets...


However it was done, with very few examples
Figuring a sheet 8 cards tall, and a 1% survival rate, the number of sheets done was around 25.
Even adding a few cards, that only gets to an order for 6-7000 cards. (roughly, the sheet size to get there seems strange, it could be double, which still seems small. )

[Pat R]

Pat, so you're saying that Doyle is Brown and mislabeled? Is it yours?

It's not mine mike, as I stated in post #18 if the scans are accurate it's definitely brown the Doyle is on the left in that post even the ink in the finger print from one of the ALC workers looks brown.

It's hard to tell in some scans but in hand it's easy. Both of the Brown Lenox that I've owned were the darker versions and they are the hardest to tell with
scans but in hand it was easy to see that they are brown.

Sometimes PSA has a hard time deciding and maybe it depends on what that particular grader sees. This Willis was originally graded as brown and then they changed it to black. I think they had it right the first time (also depending on the accuracy of the scan). The funny part is it sold for $7800 in the brown label holder and $14,400 in the black label holder.

591972

Here's the Willis on the left next to a black Lenox from the same auction

591975

[MVSNYC]

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's a Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

[Pat R]

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's my Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

You and I always seem to have different opinions on the black and brown Lenox Mike. There are different shades of brown and the brown Lenox that you posted is the shade that stands out the most by far over the other shades.

I agree with what Greg said about the black not fading to a brown look I've also never seen a black on any T cards fade to a point that it appears brown.

The brown Lenox are so scarce that there are only a small sample for comparison. The T59 Sub Rosa's are very similar to the T206 Lenox that's why I used them for a reference in my earlier post.

The scans and what you're viewing them on can effect how they appear. My computer monitor is more accurate than the tablet I sometimes use but even my computer monitor doesn't reflect what they actually look like in hand.

I have around 20 brown Sub Rosa's in varying shades of brown that are very similar to the brown Lenox and they all clearly stand out from the 300 black Sub Rosa's that I have.

The Top row in this scan are all brown and the bottom row are black. The factory 129 in the top left is what I would consider a faded brown look and the Factory 649 bottom row 2nd from the left has a faded black look.

592071

592072

[G1911]

^ Fantastic example of how black fades on the T cards. Even the right chemical combination doesn't create the same brown that brown back cards have; it's more of a grayish browning.

If fading created brown, we'd see brown T218 Mecca's and dozens of other sets using black backs from the same production facilities at the same time. We don't; only a very small subset of T cards is possible to find with brown backs, precisely because they are a truly different back.

[MVSNYC]

Hi Pat, it's ok that we disagree on this, all good, plenty of mutual respect.

I just (personally) see faded black in the Sub Rosa's and the T206 Willis. It seems like a lot them have warm toning on the actual paper stock, plus some faded (black) ink, which, when combined, could give a slightly warm black color, leaning towards a brown black (espresso) color. But I'm just not seeing brown ink there.

There's only one Sub Rosa I'm seeing that may possibly be brown ink, and that's the example in post 13 with the severely rounded corners. The rest I just think are faded black.

[G1911]

Hi Pat, it's ok that we disagree on this, all good, plenty of mutual respect.

I just (personally) see faded black in the Sub Rosa's and the T206 Willis. It seems like a lot them have warm toning on the actual paper stock, plus some faded (black) ink, which, when combined, could give a slightly warm black color, leaning towards a brown black (espresso) color. But I'm just not seeing brown ink there.

There's only one Sub Rosa I'm seeing that may possibly be brown ink, and that's the example in post 13 with the severely rounded corners. The rest I just think are faded black.

Out of the dozens of black backs on the ATC 1909-1912 project, only a few are found in this coloring. If they were not printed this way and are faded back, why is it only a small subset of very specific backs? And how do I create this fading effect?

I feel comfortable it is a different back because of the subsets and that it is the solitary alleged faded color I cannot seem to make myself doctoring beater cards for research.

[Pat R]

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's my Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

Hey Mike, can you post a scan of the Schlei Lenox that you picked up in the spring REA auction with these two.

[MVSNYC]

I’ll post the scans later tonight. Watching a Halloween movie with the kids. :)

[MVSNYC]

Here's the Schlei I got recently. Very bold back.

[Pat R]

Here's the Schlei I got recently. Very bold back.

That's brown Mike.

[MVSNYC]

Hmm…I’ll loupe it tonight.

[tedzan]

A "true-blue" Brown OLD MILL back which most likely resulted when the printer was running tests with the brown ink
he printed the brown HINDU Southern Leaguers.
Furthermore, on this card he also ran printer's tests using the red Factory #649 overprint.


Incidently, this card was in my collection years ago. I believe Ryan is the current owner now.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/abOLDMILLfact649x25.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

The brown Old Mills are very different when comparing them to Brown Lenox.
The Old Mills are a consistent brown while the Lenox are found in several different shades of brown.

[Pat R]

A "true-blue" Brown OLD MILL back which most likely resulted when the printer was running tests with the brown ink
he printed the brown HINDU Southern Leaguers.
Furthermore, on this card he also ran printer's tests using the red Factory #649 overprint.


Incidently, this card was in my collection years ago. I believe Ryan is the current owner now.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/abOLDMILLfact649x25.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.


Ted I'm curious when did you have the Greminger? This is the info that I have on it.
It was purchased by a collector many years ago from Lew Lipset. That collector had it until it was sold in a 2010 REA auction where it was purchased by David Hall who had it until it was sold in a 2019 Heritage auction where it was purchased by Ryan.

Were you the person that purchased it from Lew Lipset?

[Pat R]

Mike emailed me about his Schlei, he louped it and he is going to post about that.

Here is his Schlei on the right compared to this Schlei black Lenox on the left in the 2nd image.

592453

592454

[MVSNYC]

Prior to 24 hours ago, my son and I were very happy with our "Black" Lenox Schlei. I had never thought of it being Brown, thus had never thoroughly looked at it under a loupe. After seeing Pat's comments about the card potentially being Brown, I decided to look at it more closely. It wasn't the typical Jet Black you see with Lenox, or Carolina Brights. It definitely leaned dark dark Brown, not a true Black. It had a warm hue to it, and felt more "espresso". Pat's side by side comparison above with a true Black example is an accurate visual. I've owned many Lenox's over the years, Black and Brown, after my close analysis in hand, under a loupe, this one leans dark Brown.

Here's a few more images, one is next to a Carolina Brights (true Black), and the others are close ups of the Schlei, adjacent to the black insert in the SGC holder.

(Thanks to Pat for pointing it out and encouraging me take a deeper look at it. If I sell or trade it (which I may, as I already have another Brown Lenox), I will give Pat a little something, as a gesture.)

[Pat R]

Hey Mike happy to help no need to give me anything if you sell or trade it.

The brown Lenox especially the ones with the shade/tint like your Schlei can be difficult to tell until you compare them with a Black Lenox.

[Pat R]

A member has another Willis that is also brown that he sent me images of.

592529

592530

592531

592532

592533

592534

You can see it better in these images that I adjusted the contrast on which has the same affect on all the cards/colors when they are from the same image.

592536

592535

[Pat R]

Edited on request.

[jggames]

Hey Pat, love this thread and your investigations so much. I have a couple print group 3s and have laid them over a Murray. You said that ALL print group 3s are some variation of brown ink? Tough to see it in these, what are your thoughts?
Thanks!
Jason

[Pat R]

Hey Jason, Did you loupe them? In the single pictures they look like dark brown to me but in the picture of the three together they look black but not as black as the Murray on the right. Can you scan them instead of using pictures? Or are they scans?

[jggames]

yep I'll scan them in and update...

[Pat R]

Now that the auction is over I will re-post some of the information that several people asked to remove.

I believe that all of the 350/460 print group 3 subjects were printed with brown ink only and that any of them in the pop reports listed as black are incorrectly labeled.

594389

594391

594392

594393

594394

594395

The 460 only print group 4 subjects however were printed with both black and brown.

594396

594397


I also want to add that I think it's wrong to create a fake provenance or ownership of any card but especially a card like the Greminger. I know if I owned the Greminger I would want to know the history of the card.

I don't know the exact year but it was originally sold in a Lew Lipset auction many year ago and was purchased by Louis Despres who had it until it was sold in a 2010 REA auction where it was purchased by David Hall who had it until it was sold it in a 2019 Heritage where it was purchased by Ryan who as far as I know still has it.



A "true-blue" Brown OLD MILL back which most likely resulted when the printer was running tests with the brown ink
he printed the brown HINDU Southern Leaguers.
Furthermore, on this card he also ran printer's tests using the red Factory #649 overprint.


Incidently, this card was in my collection years ago. I believe Ryan is the current owner now.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/abOLDMILLfact649x25.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Leon]

Nice comparison of the backs, Pat.

Now that the auction is over I will re-post some of the information that several people asked to remove.

I believe that all of the 350/460 print group 3 subjects were printed with brown ink only and that any of them in the pop reports listed as black are incorrectly labeled.

594389

594391

594392

594393

594394

594395

The 460 only print group 4 subjects however were printed with both black and brown.

594396

594397


I also want to add that I think it's wrong to create a fake provenance or ownership of any card but especially a card like the Greminger. I know if I owned the Greminger I would want to know the history of the card.

I don't know the exact year but it was originally sold in a Lew Lipset auction many year ago and was purchased by Louis Despres who had it until it was sold in a 2010 REA auction where it was purchased by David Hall who had it until it was sold it in a 2019 Heritage where it was purchased by Ryan who as far as I know still has it.