Help! (Please) looking for my great grand father on T-206! [Archive]

Joshwesley

04-22-2015, 08:49 PM

Hi everyone
I am brand new to the world of tobacco cards and cards in general. I read a few articles about the t-206 set and became interested. My great grandfather played for Cleveland from 1907-1910, seabron "jessee" Red Booles.
I've done a little googling and "believe" that he is either in the T-206 or T-209 set. Obviously I would love to acquire his card.
Surely it's not one of the more valuable cards in the set as he was a journeyman pitcher that played for a few teams during his short career.

Anyhow, any clarification on if this card even exists, if it's possible to aquire one etc.. Would be greatly appreciated.

I found this site while researching about the cards. I'm very thankful.

Thanks again

vintagehofrookies

04-22-2015, 08:53 PM

Maybe this is him? I found this on ebay:

Booles (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Photo-Booles-Raleigh-Team-baseball-photo-portrait-1910-/271835117647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f4aa2b84f)

Joshwesley

04-22-2015, 09:01 PM

Goodness.... It very well could be...
Unique name.....I'm not sure if he played with Raleigh or not?

Is there anyway to get a first name for the gentleman in that card?
Is there anyone on here that possibly knows a little bit about the card (or even has one)

Many, many thanks for the help!

vintagehofrookies

04-22-2015, 09:06 PM

Yes this is him! here the info on the card:

1910 Contentnea (First Series) Red Booles #2

Joshwesley

04-22-2015, 09:13 PM

Incredible!
I looked at the link...it seems to be eBay overseas?

Please excuse my ignorance.... Is this a tobacco card of my great grandpa (t-206-209 series, or just a printed pic?

The eBay auction didn't provide much of a description, or at least I couldn't find one. What better way to start my tobacco card collection than with him.

Can these be found in the states?

Jobu

04-22-2015, 09:15 PM

Just don't buy what is for sale in that Ebay link, it is a photo of the card and not the card itself (if all you are looking for is to print a nice picture then you can do better than what they have too, e.g., http://www.milehighcardco.com/lot-9438.aspx).

Leon

04-22-2015, 09:18 PM

The one shown in the link on ebay is a photo (worse than a reprint :)). A real one from the T209 Contentnea color series would be a few, to several, hundred dollars depending on condition.

Jobu

04-22-2015, 09:19 PM

For this set I think it can be tougher to find a particular card. I think your best chance to find one is to ask around right here on Net54 - maybe post a WTB (wanted to buy) listing in the right section of our BST (Buy Sell Trade). You might get an offer just based on this thread too.

Good luck, I hope you find one!

Kawika

04-22-2015, 09:29 PM

Looks like Rhys Yeakley sold a photo of your ggf in one of his auctions.
RMY link (http://www.rmyauctions.com/1909__Red__Booles__Obscure_Cleveland_Indians_Pitch-lot8245.aspx)
http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/sportscardsetc/mischidden/miscellany2/8245a_lg.jpeg

I put together a T209-1 set a few years back. As I recall Booles wasn't as tough as some of the other cards. One will turn up I'm sure if you are patient.
http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/sportscardsetc/baseball/t2091contentneaseries1/large/T209_Booles.jpg

Thromdog

04-22-2015, 09:34 PM

Interesting that picture shows him as a lefty and card as a rightie.....

Joshwesley

04-22-2015, 09:58 PM

Thanks so much for all of your replies....
Yes, I want the original tobacco card of great grand father.
I'm sure it'll involve some searching.

I put this thread up pretty late at night..
Hoping to get some good leads tomorow.

Again,
I really appreciate all of the help.
I'm going to put out a wanted ad as well.

Thanks

Jobu

04-22-2015, 09:59 PM

Also interesting is his resemblance to Jon Lester:

http://yawkeywayreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/jon-lester.jpg

Joshwesley

04-22-2015, 10:01 PM

He was ambidextrous..... I am as well....

Incredible pic of the card... It exists!!!!
I've GOT to have one.
If any of you guys have any leads or know anyone that would be willing to part with one, I'd be so grateful.
I'm starting the search myself, right now

Kawika

04-22-2015, 10:08 PM

Interesting that picture shows him as a lefty and card as a rightie.....
Yeah, I noticed that. BBRef.com has him as a lefty. Not much of a likeness either. Wouldn't be the first time that the image was reversed or the wrong guy was shown on a card.
Booles was with Cleveland for three weeks in 1909. Found this Bain photo of the 1909 Naps on the internet. Don't know if he's in there or not but he was in fast company playing on the same team with the likes of Cy Young, Nap Lajoie and Addie Joss.
http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/sportscardsetc/mischidden/miscellany2/huge/1909_Cleveland_Naps.jpg

Joshwesley

04-22-2015, 10:21 PM

Yeah, I noticed that. BBRef.com has him as a lefty. Not much of a likeness either. Wouldn't be the first time that the image was reversed or the wrong guy was shown on a card.
Booles was with Cleveland for three weeks in 1909. Found this Bain photo of the 1909 Naps on the internet. Don't know if he's in there or not but he was in fast company playing on the same team with the likes of Cy Young, Nap Lajoie and Addie Joss.
http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/sportscardsetc/mischidden/miscellany2/huge/1909_Cleveland_Naps.jpg

Incredible!!!

I believe that to be him on the middle row (second to the right), unless you all know otherwise.

I knew he played with the guy that was believed to have either started or was heavily involved with the black sox scandal.
I had NO idea he played with (edit) cy young)... Nice company gramps!!

Keep is coming gents... Thanks for your knowledge !

Kawika

04-22-2015, 11:17 PM

Josh: There is a website we all use that has a lot of information about ballplayers' statistics. It's called baseball-reference.com. Here are links for your ggf's minor league career (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=booles001sea) and his major league career (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/boolere01.shtml). If you click on the various teams he played for (Raleigh and Shreveport in the minors, Cleveland in the bigs) you will see that he rubbed shoulders with some luminaries of the game. In 1908 in Shreveport he indeed played with one of the notorious Black Sox, Chick Gandil. Another teammate was Hall of Famer Zach Wheat. In Cleveland, aside from Lajoie, Young and Joss, he was part of a group of deadballers who are as familiar to us collectors as any modern roster of ballplayers. His career in pro ball was brief but it was the real deal.
As for whether he is in the team photo, you would be a better judge than me. My eyes go screwy trying to match old faces. I don't know when in the season it was taken so there's no guarantee he would was on the Naps at the time.

bmarlowe1

04-22-2015, 11:35 PM

Incredible!!!

I believe that to be him on the middle row (second to the right), unless you all know otherwise.

I knew he played with the guy that was believed to have either started or was heavily involved with the black sox scandal.
I had NO idea he played with (edit) cy young)... Nice company gramps!!

Keep is coming gents... Thanks for your knowledge !

Josh - Red Booles is not in the Cleveland team photo (it is spring 1910). Middle row 2nd from right is Hall of Famer Elmer Flick. The correct IDs are:

back row:
George Boice – Bill Bradley – Art Kruger – Elmer "Bob" Koestner – Addie Joss
mid row:
Nig Clark – Walt Doane – Nap Lajoie – Deacon McGuire – Fred Link – Willy Mitchell – Elmer Flick – Ted Easterly
front row:
Harry Kirsch – Phil Cooney – Terry Turner – Neal Ball – Jack Graney – Joe Birmingham

BTW - do you have any good photos of him as a young man that you could post?

John V

04-23-2015, 04:58 AM

Maybe you've already seen this. (from a chopped up Reach catalog)

Bpm0014

04-23-2015, 07:20 AM

Just an FYI; not sure if it has been addressed yet. He is NOT in the T206 set. Sorry!

Joshwesley

04-23-2015, 07:38 AM

Maybe you've already seen this. (from a chopped up Reach catalog)

That's incredible...!! Thank you...
When I get to the office, I'm going to post the picture I have off him..
It's a portrait in his Cleveland jacket.

Joshwesley

04-23-2015, 07:39 AM

Just an FYI; not sure if it has been addressed yet. He is NOT in the T206 set. Sorry!

Yes sir, that's correct. But isn't he in one of the tobacco sets?
T-209, or something similar?
I'm on the hunt!

btcarfagno

04-23-2015, 08:19 AM

Yes sir, that's correct. But isn't he in one of the tobacco sets?
T-209, or something similar?
I'm on the hunt!

You are correct. The T209 set was a regional set produced in 1910. The original production totals of the set are dwarfed by that of the T206 set, thus this could prove to be quest that will take you some time (and money) to complete. Individual T209 cards can be found, and hopefully someone here on the board can hook you up with one, but they are FAR tougher to find than an individual T206 card.

It is wonderful to hear from a relative of a deadball player, and I very much look forward to seeing the image that you have of your great grandfather.

Is there anything else that has been passed down within the family relating to him? Equipment or autographs etc? Any of these items would have value.

Thanks for sharing.

Tom C

bmarlowe1

04-23-2015, 08:29 AM

That's incredible...!! Thank you...
When I get to the office, I'm going to post the picture I have off him..
It's a portrait in his Cleveland jacket.

Josh - that would be great, thank you. SABR Pictorial History Committee would like to have the scan on file. Good images of short time early major leaguers can be hard to find.

t206fix

04-23-2015, 11:07 AM

Pics from Josh

Joshwesley

04-23-2015, 11:08 AM

A really nice gentleman on this forum is going to post the pics for me (I can't get it work) and my aunt is speaking with some kin folks tonight to see what info she can find and if they have any of Red Booles gear (uniforms/gloves etc)

I even have a guy from the forum looking to see if he has a duplicate of Red's t-209 card (he believes he has one)

Fingers crossed!

Thanks for all of the help.

Joshwesley

04-23-2015, 11:08 AM

Pics from Josh

Thanks Tony!!

Bocabirdman

04-23-2015, 12:35 PM

You are correct. The T209 set was a regional set produced in 1910. The original production totals of the set are dwarfed by that of the T206 set, thus this could prove to be quest that will take you some time (and money) to complete. Individual T209 cards can be found, and hopefully someone here on the board can hook you up with one, but they are FAR tougher to find than an individual T206 card.

It is wonderful to hear from a relative of a deadball player, and I very much look forward to seeing the image that you have of your great grandfather.

Is there anything else that has been passed down within the family relating to him? Equipment or autographs etc? Any of these items would have value.

Thanks for sharing.

Tom C

....as opposed to a dead ballplayer....:eek:

To the OP....Good Luck with your search..:)

darwinbulldog

04-23-2015, 12:51 PM

Too soon.

Joshwesley

04-27-2015, 11:55 AM

T-209 Red Booles FOUND!!!:eek:

Thanks to this site....

Really appreciate all of the help!

milkit1

04-27-2015, 05:31 PM

Wow! Awesome! Please share details on purchase :)

Joshwesley

04-27-2015, 07:45 PM

Hi......a really nice board member responded to my wanted add and had a duplicate card from his t-209 set.
It's a beauty... Graded a 3.
I can't wait to get it. I'm really thankful. The ultimate piece for me!

Joshwesley

06-13-2015, 04:33 PM

Now that I'm hooked on t-206 and am gaining a collection.....

I'm wondering, is there anyway to track my GGP's career?

Meaning: I don't suppose there is a site that could show who he faced while playing with the Naps in 1909...

Did he face Cobb? Did he sit him down?
Etc etc...

Possible?

I've been googling but figured this is my best shot.

Thanks!

btcarfagno

06-13-2015, 05:26 PM

I do not think that either Baseball Reference or Retrosheet go back to 1909 for individual game box scores....only about 1914 or so. They are the "usual suspects" for this sort of thing. Perhaps you can contact the Baseball Hall Of Fame with your research request. There may be other sources as well but I am just not aware of them.

Tom C

bigtrain

06-13-2015, 05:59 PM

I think a road trip to Cleveland might be in
order. I would check with the Cleveland public
Library or the Plain Dealer to see if they have
accessible archives.

Joshwesley

06-13-2015, 06:17 PM

Cleveland public library it is!!

I'll give it a shot.

Thanks guys!

Kawika

06-13-2015, 06:40 PM

Here is your ggf's ML pitching line from Baseball-Reference.com. He appeared in four games, starting one and in relief in the others.
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/huge/Red%20Booles%20BBRef%20Pitching%20Line.jpg

I was able to find box scores in the New York Times for the four games he played. They are not pitch-by-pitch or batter-by-batter accounts by any stretch but you can still infer a lot. He didn't get the chance to "sit down" Cobb but he faced the likes of Tris Speaker and Home Run Baker and that is sure something. He had some solid outings. Why he didn't stick is a mystery for someone else to solve.

His first appearance was on July 30, 1909, pitching two innings in relief of Carl Sitton against the A's in Philadelphia. The NY Times mis-spelled his name in the box score.
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/July%2030_09%20101743469.pdf

He made his only major league start, a 6-2 defeat, on August 4 against the Senators in the second game of a doubleheader in Washington. Walter Johnson had outdueled Addie Joss 1-0 in the first game. Looks like Senator base runners had a field day with the battery of Great-Grand Dad and Nig Clarke.
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/large/Aug%204_09.jpg

Next appearance was August 12 against the Red Sox in Boston where your ggf came in relief of the mighty Cy Young and pitched four scoreless innings.
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/large/Aug%2012_09b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/websize/Aug%2012_09%20a.jpg

His final ML appearance was a home game against the A's eight days later on August 20. Looks like he inherited a couple of runners from Sitton in the first and didn't get out of the inning that easy but otherwise pitched solidly the rest of the way. Cleveland being held scoreless didn't help the cause. He had his only big league hit that day, a single off Jack Coombs.
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/Aug%2020_09%20101744134.pdf

Joshwesley

06-13-2015, 08:01 PM

Incredible.

Thank you so much! Those are priceless to me.
That's some awesome work.

Thanks again.

Edit: supposedly he hurt his shoulder pretty bad and then just moved back to louisiana and became a farmer.

My grandad said he really rubbed elbows and played with some future stars while in the southern leagues (Raleigh and Shreveport)....

Really cool.

DaClyde

06-13-2015, 10:16 PM

The Dallas Morning News had great coverage of the Texas League in 1908, including several full play-by-play accounts of games. I can probably reconstruct his 1908 season and get you snapshots of the newspaper pages from GenealogyBank tomorrow. I'll work out a way to get them to you.

Joshwesley

06-13-2015, 11:02 PM

That's incredibly generous/thoughtful of you. Don't put too many demands on your time. I'll be thankful for whatever/whenever!

DaClyde

06-13-2015, 11:13 PM

That's incredibly generous/thoughtful of you. Don't put too many demands on your time. I'll be thankful for whatever/whenever!

Not a problem, I'm always glad to get some use out of my subscription. I've already found results for 37 of the 39 games he appeared in for the 1908 season. The last 2 might be tough as GenealogyBank's OCR apparently didn't catch his name or it might have been misspelled. Already found it listed once as Boales.

DaClyde

06-14-2015, 06:51 AM

Not a problem, I'm always glad to get some use out of my subscription. I've already found results for 37 of the 39 games he appeared in for the 1908 season. The last 2 might be tough as GenealogyBank's OCR apparently didn't catch his name or it might have been misspelled. Already found it listed once as Boales.

Ok, between the Dallas Morning News and Fort Worth Telegram, I've found accounts of 38 of 39 games. He typically pitched every 3-4 days, but occasionally on as little as 2 days rest. I expect the missing game to be in one of the larger gaps between games. For instance, I haven't found him in a game between May 11-17, Aug 15-22 or Aug 31-Sep 6.

In a fascinating turn of events on August 15th (a double header between Shreveport & San Antonio), according to the Dallas Morning News, "It was announced shortly before the first game that Umpire McDonald had tendered his resignation and players were called upon to umpire." Booles umpired the first game of the double-header and pitched the second game. According to the following day's account, McDonald didn't quit his job, he was ill that day.

The season ending double header against Dallas, saw Booles playing left field, rather than pitching. On the surface, that seems an odd move for the team since he was a sub-.200 hitter.

------------UPDATE----------

Ah, I found the last game. There was another double header recorded in the August 18th Dallas paper.

Joshwesley

06-14-2015, 08:11 AM

Thanks so much for your research and efforts....
Thanks to all in this thread....

My wife and I are eating lunch with my parents today after church, you can imagine what the conversation will be about :)

Thanks again!