Brown vs. black Lenox

[trdcrdkid]

Among the five T206s I got back in the late 70s and early 80s, and kept loose in boxes along with my other cards, were two with Lenox backs, Schaefer and Wiltse. I didn't know at the time how scarce they were. The other three were a Tolstoi and two Polar Bears; I never had a Piedmont or Sweet Caporal T206 until I got back into collecting in the early 90s.

I've heard about these brown Lenox T206s, but to be honest, when I've seen pictures, I've had a hard time distinguishing them from regular black Lenox T206s, including my two. REA has a brown Lenox Willis in their current auction, but I have a hard time telling from the photo that the ink is supposed to be brown as opposed to black. Maybe it's just the photo.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=33731

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/item_33731_2.jpg

REA also had a brown Lenox T206 of Wiltse in last spring's auction -- the same as one of my Lenoxes, but in much better condition -- and I also have a hard time telling that it's brown ink as opposed to a variant of the usual black ink:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2014_spring/369.html

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/item_30513_2.jpg

Here is a picture of the back of my T206 Lenox of Schaefer, next to a Cycle 350 that's definitely black ink, and a Broad Leaf 350 and a Hindu that are definitely brown ink:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_3.jpg

The contrast between the brown and black ink is actually easier to see in person, so I can see how that might be a factor in my confusion. Now here's the same picture with my other Lenox back (Wiltse) on top of the Cycle 350:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_4.jpg

It's obviously much lighter than the other Lenox, but it's also not really the same color as the Broad Leaf and Hindu cards next to it. I wonder, though, whether it's similar to the color of the "brown" Lenoxes from the REA auctions. I guess it would be necessary to examine the cards in person to be more certain. Here are my two Lenoxes side by side:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg98/dkathman1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_5.jpg

Are there any pictures of brown Lenox T206s out there where the contrast in color with a black Lenox is more obvious?

[ullmandds]

nice stash...yours are black...brown will look "browner!" :D

[Pat R]

David, both of yours are definitely black. There are a few past threads on this
topic if you use the search function.

[Sean]

185970

Sorry for the poor scan.The Brown Lenox is a dark brown, unlike the Hindu and Brown Old Mill. It is hard to distinguish from the Black Lenox, especially when the Black is a bit faded.

[x2drich2000]

Here's a link with a nice comparison. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=127872

DJ

[trdcrdkid]

Thanks, everybody. My Schaefer is definitely black, and the Wiltse looks black but faded. I was just having a hard time seeing the difference from the REA cards. I did a search on the board for "brown Lenox", but so many threads came up that I didn't have time to go through them all. Sean, those scans are helpful -- as you say, the Lenox brown is darker than the Hindu or Broad Leaf browns, and tougher to distinguish from black. The 2010 thread linked by xdrich2000 is also good. The difference is probably more apparent in person.

[trdcrdkid]

You know, while I can see the difference between the brown and black Lenoxes in Sean's scans, and even more so in the picture Leon posted in that 2010 thread, it's a pretty subtle difference, one that I need to look closely to see. I assume that's why the difference wasn't even recognized in the hobby until fairly recently. Does anybody know when that difference started to be recognized? I don't remember ever hearing anything about it back in the early to mid-90s, but I see that Mark Peavey's 2001 pamphlet "The Mysteries of T206" does regognize the distinction (though without mentioning brown Old Mill).

It's not the type of thing that would prompt me to want to pay the type of premium that brown Lenoxes apparently command over black ones (assuming that I had that kind of money to spend), but to each his own. I also shake my head at the type of crazy premiums that PSA 10 cards command over PSA 9s (let alone 8s), but if people want to spend their money on that, I won't try to stop them.

[Sean]

I first heard of a Brown Lenox in 2004 (Lajoie).

[JerryTotino]

Lew Lipset confirms a Brown Lenox existing back around 1986 in the third volume of The Encyclopedia Of Baseball Cards.

I won an example in the early 1990's and it was listed as a Brown Lenox.

I think it just took a long time for it to be fully accepted from the point of when it was actually discovered/documented.

Jerry

[Bpm0014]

Rule of thumb: If you are unsure if it is black or brown......it is black. The brown is easy to decipher.

[trdcrdkid]

Oh yeah, I should have thought to look in Lipset. I see that he says brown Lenox were found only "recently". I'm guessing there might be something about the discovery in hobby publications of the early 80s.

[MVSNYC]

You know, while I can see the difference between the brown and black Lenoxes in Sean's scans, and even more so in the picture Leon posted in that 2010 thread, it's a pretty subtle difference, one that I need to look closely to see. I assume that's why the difference wasn't even recognized in the hobby until fairly recently...

It's not the type of thing that would prompt me to want to pay the type of premium that brown Lenoxes apparently command over black ones...

+1

I never even attempted to chase Brown Lenox's...I am perfectly happy owning a few Black examples. I get that they're rarer, but IMO, the difference is too subtle to pay such a huge premium. Black Lenox is tuff enough, as it is.

[wonkaticket]

In person they are not as subtle as they come across in scans. They are neat cards and are not easy to obtain. Ultimately it’s probably a good thing many folks don’t care too much for the subtle difference as there aren’t lots of examples to spread around. The folks who do seem to chase them drive prices to a respectable premium.

I can say one thing when it comes to these kind of cards, when it’s for sale everyone has a different take on its value or it’s justification of value. The only time everyone seems to pick a unified side of the fence is when they have one for sale. Then it’s no longer subtle and worth the premium. :)

[ullmandds]

In person they are not as subtle as they come across in scans. They are neat cards and are not easy to obtain. Ultimately it’s probably a good thing many folks don’t care too much for the subtle difference as there aren’t lots of examples to spread around. The folks who do seem to chase them drive prices to a respectable premium.

I can say one thing when it comes to these kind of cards, when it’s for sale everyone has a different take on its value or it’s justification of value. The only time everyone seems to pick a unified side of the fence is when they have one for sale. Then it’s no longer subtle and worth the premium. :)

This seems to go for red backround cobbs with Lenox backs as well!

[Sean]

this seems to go for red backround cobbs with lenox backs as well!

+1

[atx840]

The folks who do seem to chase them drive prices to a respectable premium.

Ill say, here is the same card sold as black $956 (http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1909-11-t206-lenox-black-hooks-wiltse-portrait-no-cap-sgc-30-good-2/a/7051-80078.s) and then slabbed as brown $8295 (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2014_spring/369.html)

Havent owned one but its on my wish list :D

[Sean]

Ill say, here is the same card sold as black $956 (http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1909-11-t206-lenox-black-hooks-wiltse-portrait-no-cap-sgc-30-good-2/a/7051-80078.s) and then slabbed as brown $8295 (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2014_spring/369.html)

Havent owned one but its on my wish list :D

Chris, go after the Willis in the current REA.

And don't have enough cash leftover to bid on the cards that I'm chasing. :D

[mrvster]

held one for the first time a few weeks ago....incredible "non" scrap 206 :D;)