Joe Namath and the 1965 Topps set

[TanksAndSpartans]

Why does this card command the prices it does? (recently did an eBay search for sold listings of PSA graded examples of this card)

I’m not trying to disparage Joe at all, he’s a hall of famer and I think would appear in most lists of the top 25 QBs of all time. The card is a short print, which explains some of the high price, but I don't get the sense the card is an extreme rarity, right? Interestingly, from my own observations, I think most casual and modern (meaning not much interest in history) football fans feel Namath is in some sense “overrated”. I don’t agree with that, just wondering about the popularity of the card. Could his “celebrity” be inflating the price after all these years?

Looking at: “The Top 100: NFL's Greatest Players” television series, every player has a “mainstream” rookie card:

http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/setcomposition.aspx?c=8537

Sure, the list doesn’t include a lot of stars from the 20s-50s which means lots of cards from recent times (the era when sports cards were produced in relatively large quantities and preserved relatively well), but for arguments sake its a list of a lot of the game’s all-time greats. Among those 100 cards, I believe only the Nagurski sells for higher prices than the Namath (doing an apples to apples comparison regarding condition) (maybe 33 GSK Thorpe 3rd?). I'd be really surprised if we could get someone who knows about football, but not football cards to ever guess that... (The question would need to be framed carefully though - condition could be kept constant by say choosing the PSA 5 grade. The trickier part would be to mathematically adjust all the prices such that if there were 300 Jim Brown PSA 5s, but only 50 Bob Lilly PSA 5s, we'd need to increase Brown's price and decrease Lilly's to keep quantity constant at say 100 - just an example.)

Finally, I don't recall seeing 65 "tall boys" in anyone's favorite set list. Is it a favorite set? Technically, I believe its AFL only, right? I think Philadelphia had NFL.

Thanks for any opinions. And feel free to take the thread in different directions - discussion of the 65 Topps set and even the NFL top 100 list are both relevant.

[Econteachert205]

I just think it's one of those iconic status symbol cards. It has the "it" factor. Illogical consumerism at its finest. I have to say that if I were to make a list of vintage football rookies I want jim Brown would be 1 and Namath 2. Why? Why don't I want Bart Starr or Johnny U or Staubach? I can't really tell you other than it doesn't do anything for me to have those cards.

[HRBAKER]

Never really understood it either, larger than life figure and card I guess.
Would he be a Top 25 all-time QB?

[pawpawdiv9]

I think the variety of flambouyant colors on the 65 big boys are eyecatching. The size alone is another factor. It is an appealing set, a fellow board member (Blackie) did this set -not sure if he completed it or not. But i seen most of them on the SGC board and its amazing. I dont know why its important to have the Namath, maybe becasue he was a icon during when we watched Brett Farve so many years. Along with his shazzy fur coat and Yorker slang and swagger, he is up there on my list with the other ol' Joe.

[skelly]

Personally the card does nothing for me. I sold my 65 set a few years ago and haven't missed it one bit, while I've regretted selling my 63 set. To be fair it does seem a little rarer than your Jim Brown, Johnny Unitas Rookies. For whatever reason, even at big shows, you won't find many dealers that have the Namath Rookie on them, maybe storage is just a pain, I don't know, but even when dealers have stacks of 50's and 60's, you just don't see a lot of 65 football. Similar to Mantle cards being worth more than Mays, Aaron, etc... I think the New York factor plays big. The college career at Alabama can't hurt either.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Great replies! Some intangibles I didn’t think of like the "it" factor. And I don’t make it to shows, but I can see how the cards not showing up much could create some mystique around the set.

Someone asked about the top 25 - there’s lots not to like about ranking lists - difficulty of comparing across eras, football being a team game, statistics can be much more deceptive than say baseball where there really is a large individual aspect especially on offense, etc.

But, for the sake of discussion, the NFL top 100 ranked 19 QBs (I was a bit surprised it wasn't the most at any position - there were actually 20 RB on the list):

1. Joe Montana
2. Johnny Unitas
3. Otto Graham
4. Sammy Baugh
5. John Elway
6. Dan Marino
7. Sid Luckman
8. Roger Staubach
9. Bart Starr
10. Terry Bradshaw
11. Brett Favre
12. Peyton Manning
13. Tom Brady
14. Steve Young
15. Fran Tarkenton
16. Troy Aikman
17. Norm Van Brocklin
18. Kurt Warner
19. Joe Namath

So it would take 7 guys to squeeze Joe out of the top 25. I guess a case could be made, but I don’t think I would make the case. Here is what HOF says:

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PlayerId=161&tab=Highlights

If I did have to choose 7 more QBs though, off the top of my head: Bobby Layne, Ken Anderson, Len Dawson, Dan Fouts, Sonny Jurgenson, Jim Kelly, and John Brodie make 7. I'm sure I forgot some.

And I just realized, what about some of the guys from the early days? (Dutch Clark, Paddy Driscoll, Benny Friedman, Arnie Herber, etc.) I think they mostly threw out of the single-wing, so may be considered more tailback than quarterback, but shouldn't players from every era be on the list? That would make it interesting, not sure what the methodology would be for say comparing Dutch Clark and Drew Brees.

[sockwell123]

I wouldn't mind having this card.. tho it's out of my price range.

There's a decent little wikipedia article on Namath talking about when the AFL and NFL merged and Super Bowl 3.. it's got some good info in it if remotely interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Namath

I can remember the flexall 454 commercials as a kid... and watching Super Bowl 3 highlights with the John Facenda narration.!

[Footballdude]

The Namath RC is what is stopping me from pursuing the 65 set. Along with some of the reasons given, I also was under the impression that prices for the Namath RC stay on the high side because high grade examples are hard to find. The large size of the cards really makes even a slight diamond cut seem really bad.

[jefferyepayne]

Some cards are the perfect storm for enhanced value: iconic player, nice looking/popular set, short print. Namath fits this as does the Chicle Nagurski. T206 Wagner is of course the grand daddy of the perfect storm.

What are some other football cards you think fit this 'perfect storm' equation to some degree? While he wasn't popular, the Mayo Anonymouns/Dunlop card is in an iconic set and an error card that seems to have reduced its existing population and raised it's profile to near mythical proportions (for a football card, anyway).

jeff

[Econteachert205]

Another of those perfect storm cards would probably be the Bobby Orr rookie.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Great point about the condition issues. That's what actually led me to the post was looking at sales of mid grade examples for 2K+. I don't even follow the really high grade sales - I think some PSA 10 HOF RCs have really done well within the last year - Tony Dorsett, etc., but I don't recall the details. I have a similar theory about the 35 Chicle Bull Tosi. Theoretically, I don’t think it should sell for more than the other high numbers (Tosi arguably has the least “star power” in the set), but in a case where there aren’t enough high grade ones to go around, it makes sense for the prices of the mid and low grade examples to be bid up. Although I could also argue that high grade collectors would be patient and just wait for a better one to come along.

Interesting thing about SB III - I actually watched recently. We knew from the box score Matt Snell's numbers looked good. Watching it confirmed - he had a great game - one of those games with a lot of solid runs as opposed to breaking a couple long ones (His long was only 12). He ran hard and had several strings of 3 consecutive runs and 5 runs within 7 plays - he moved the chains and was definitely a workhorse. Interestedly, the announcers gave Namath a decent amount of credit for the runs! Maybe that was common then since the QB was calling plays. I don’t think you would hear that today though (Another 1st down for Murray - Romo is sure making great decisions. Wait, huh?). Also announcers kept on saying “red dog”. I’m pretty sure the word “blitz” wasn’t uttered once. What really was the game changer to me though was the interceptions. The Jets picked off NFL MVP Morrall 3 times and when Unitas got in and at one point (3rd qtr with the game's outcome still in doubt) it felt like he had a TD drive going, they picked him off too! And Namath - definitely left the "larger than life" persona off the field in my opinion. He seemed to take what the defense gave him, used the running backs as outlets, recognized blitzes (I mean red dogs) and threw to the open man, didn't force anything. He played a smart game, but it definitely wasn't bombs away. He connected on one long one to Sauer which was a key play in one of the FG drives and missed on maybe 1 or 2 deep passes that I recall.

Difficult to think of another perfect storm football card. Probably a good thing for my wallet :) Rocky Graziano from 48 Leaf boxing.

[CowboysGuide]

Maybe not exactly the example this thread is about, but the 1972 Topps Staubach RC is condition sensitive due to the centering. If you ever see a 45/55 centered example (not to mention a perfect 50/50), you can bet it will fetch a small fortune. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands of this card on eBay, and hardly any are centered better than 35/65.

[LuckyLarry]

I have the '65 Topps set completed and I love the tall boys! They are just so unique. The backs are pretty awesome too! I'll post a picture of my beat up Namath card, but try finding a Biletnikoff RC (SP) next time you are at a card show. That card is tough as well!
Larry
<a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/larrytipton/media/Joe.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w185/larrytipton/Joe.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Joe.jpg"/></a>

[LuckyLarry]

Here's a picture of my set I just took. I actually have an extra Biletnikoff RC I guess I'm saving him for a rainy day:) I was at a card shop in Denver a couple of years ago and it was in his showcase priced at $40 so I scooped it up:)
Larry
<a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/larrytipton/media/photo_3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w185/larrytipton/photo_3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo photo_3.jpg"/></a>

[jb67]

Maybe not exactly the example this thread is about, but the 1972 Topps Staubach RC is condition sensitive due to the centering. If you ever see a 45/55 centered example (not to mention a perfect 50/50), you can bet it will fetch a small fortune. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands of this card on eBay, and hardly any are centered better than 35/65.

+1

[TanksAndSpartans]

I've been offline for a few days. Glad this thread got some additional activity. Larry, thanks for adding the images - we needed those.