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springpin
03-06-2015, 09:44 PM
I just posted another column on my pinback blog, baseballpinbackbuttons.wordpress.com. This one is about the large PM10 pinbacks. It is the first of two parts. One interpretation of the column is that I propose an exciting new theory of their origin. Another interpretation is that I have become a fiction writer. You decide.

Scott Garner
03-07-2015, 05:48 AM
Amazing research!
Thanks for sharing this with us. :)

WillowGrove
03-07-2015, 07:13 AM
Interesting hypotheses that may lead to definitive answers. I look forward to reading part two. And I don't even collect pinbacks. Good stuff, thank you.

Peter

vintagesportscollector
03-07-2015, 08:35 AM
I am not a big pinback collector either, but very interesting and informative. Thanks.

MK
03-07-2015, 09:40 AM
Fascinating stuff Paul. Any theory on why there are two versions of Hank Bauer?

springpin
03-07-2015, 11:58 AM
Mike,

Great question. Short answer: "I don't know." But I can add a little more that may or may not help answer the question. I said in my book and in my blog that Bauer was the only player to have two different large PM10 pins made of him. There might be a second player, but I am not sure. About 1-2 years ago on ebay was a large PM10 pin of Mays (NY) other than the one we all know. It was a larger version (2&1/8") of a Mays pin that exists in the standard 1.75" size. I have learned not to offer opinions on the authenticity of pins until I examine them in person. I did not in this case, but from what I could surmise from the photo/scan/image/whatever, it looked vintage. But with all the advanced techniques in pinmaking, it could have been a modern reproduction. If indeed it were vintage, we now have two players who have appeared on two different large PM10 pins. Based on popularity, I can understand two pins of Mays, but not Bauer.

Here is how I might approach the enigma. I would need the help of the card collectors or photo collectors. I suspect many of the images on these pins were derived from cards. Based on the date of the cards that featured the same image that appeared on the pins, I could "date" the pin, and then do some research on what might have occasioned the making of each pin. Maybe Bauer was injured for a while, and when he returned amidst much anticipation, another pin was made of him. That sort of thing.

Another sub-theory. If my memory is correct, the image of Rizzuto was from his 1955 card. Rizzuto officially retired (actually he was forced to retire because GM George Weiss informed him he would not be placed on the roster for the 1955 World Series) on September 18, 1955. The Yankees held a "day" for him with much pre-game fanfare. I wonder if that large PM10 pin of Rizzuto was an "unofficial" Phil Rizzuto Day pinback. The street vendors were always looking for an edge, a reason fans would by a pin of a particular player. Phil Rizzuto Day was well announced in advance of the actual date. Maybe the vendors saw an opportunity for sales to fans who wanted a remembrance of Rizzuto. Rizzuto appeared on two different 1.75" pins from earlier in his career. Again speculation, but why else would a large pin of Rizzuto be made in his final year?

Shorter answer, being able to date the pins through the date of the card might help to answer some of these riddles.

Paul

JayZim13
03-07-2015, 11:59 AM
Paul-Great analysis. You have already proven to me you are the best detective in the business. The idea is plausible. Provable? I'm not sure. Looking forward to part 2.

batsballsbases
03-07-2015, 12:46 PM
Mike,

Great question. Short answer: "I don't know." But I can add a little more that may or may not help answer the question. I said in my book and in my blog that Bauer was the only player to have two different large PM10 pins made of him. There might be a second player, but I am not sure. About 1-2 years ago on ebay was a large PM10 pin of Mays (NY) other than the one we all know. It was a larger version (2&1/8") of a Mays pin that exists in the standard 1.75" size. I have learned not to offer opinions on the authenticity of pins until I examine them in person. I did not in this case, but from what I could surmise from the photo/scan/image/whatever, it looked vintage. But with all the advanced techniques in pinmaking, it could have been a modern reproduction. If indeed it were vintage, we now have two players who have appeared on two different large PM10 pins. Based on popularity, I can understand two pins of Mays, but not Bauer.

Here is how I might approach the enigma. I would need the help of the card collectors or photo collectors. I suspect many of the images on these pins were derived from cards. Based on the date of the cards that featured the same image that appeared on the pins, I could "date" the pin, and then do some research on what might have occasioned the making of each pin. Maybe Bauer was injured for a while, and when he returned amidst much anticipation, another pin was made of him. That sort of thing.

Another sub-theory. If my memory is correct, the image of Rizzuto was from his 1955 card. Rizzuto officially retired (actually he was forced to retire because GM George Weiss informed him he would not be placed on the roster for the 1955 World Series) on September 18, 1955. The Yankees held a "day" for him with much pre-game fanfare. I wonder if that large PM10 pin of Rizzuto was an "unofficial" Phil Rizzuto Day pinback. The street vendors were always looking for an edge, a reason fans would by a pin of a particular player. Phil Rizzuto Day was well announced in advance of the actual date. Maybe the vendors saw an opportunity for sales to fans who wanted a remembrance of Rizzuto. Rizzuto appeared on two different 1.75" pins from earlier in his career. Again speculation, but why else would a large pin of Rizzuto be made in his final year?

Shorter answer, being able to date the pins through the date of the card might help to answer some of these riddles.

Paul

Well I guess it depends on what a person considers a different pose or 2 different pins but I do know there are at least 2 different 2 1/8 pin size poses of Elston Howard,Mickey Mantle ,And Ted Williams. The size of the head shots and the lettering on the Williams pin are both very different. Collars no collars different cropping but definitely 2 different PM10 2 1/8 pins.

Rob D.
03-07-2015, 02:53 PM
Thanks, Paul, for sharing your expertise. Like many collectors, I hope that now that the blog posts have resumed, they will continue.

It's good to have such a tremendous (not to mention accurate) source of information in this segment of the hobby.

batsballsbases
03-07-2015, 03:31 PM
:rolleyes:Mike,

Great question. Short answer: "I don't know." But I can add a little more that may or may not help answer the question. I said in my book and in my blog that Bauer was the only player to have two different large PM10 pins made of him. There might be a second player, but I am not sure. About 1-2 years ago on ebay was a large PM10 pin of Mays (NY) other than the one we all know. It was a larger version (2&1/8") of a Mays pin that exists in the standard 1.75" size. I have learned not to offer opinions on the authenticity of pins until I examine them in person. I did not in this case, but from what I could surmise from the photo/scan/image/whatever, it looked vintage. But with all the advanced techniques in pinmaking, it could have been a modern reproduction. If indeed it were vintage, we now have two players who have appeared on two different large PM10 pins. Based on popularity, I can understand two pins of Mays, but not Bauer.

Here is how I might approach the enigma. I would need the help of the card collectors or photo collectors. I suspect many of the images on these pins were derived from cards. Based on the date of the cards that featured the same image that appeared on the pins, I could "date" the pin, and then do some research on what might have occasioned the making of each pin. Maybe Bauer was injured for a while, and when he returned amidst much anticipation, another pin was made of him. That sort of thing.

Another sub-theory. If my memory is correct, the image of Rizzuto was from his 1955 card. Rizzuto officially retired (actually he was forced to retire because GM George Weiss informed him he would not be placed on the roster for the 1955 World Series) on September 18, 1955. The Yankees held a "day" for him with much pre-game fanfare. I wonder if that large PM10 pin of Rizzuto was an "unofficial" Phil Rizzuto Day pinback. The street vendors were always looking for an edge, a reason fans would by a pin of a particular player. Phil Rizzuto Day was well announced in advance of the actual date. Maybe the vendors saw an opportunity for sales to fans who wanted a remembrance of Rizzuto. Rizzuto appeared on two different 1.75" pins from earlier in his career. Again speculation, but why else would a large pin of Rizzuto be made in his final year?

Shorter answer, being able to date the pins through the date of the card might help to answer some of these riddles.

Paul

Thanks, Paul, for sharing your expertise. Like many collectors, I hope that now that the blog posts have resumed, they will continue.

It's good to have such a tremendous (not to mention accurate) source of information in this segment of the hobby.

springpin
03-07-2015, 07:01 PM
A reader of my blog commented on the seeming inconsistency (my word, not his) between my blog and my book regarding large PM10 pins. He noted some large PM10 pins in my book are not like those I described in my blog. He is absolutely correct. Here are the inconsistencies.

1. After I wrote my book, I came across some large PM10 pins from the 1939/1940 Reds. They feature an action shot of the player, not a head shot. I did mention these in a previous blog.

These large PM10 pins are in my book.

2. A pin of Red Schoendienst with a black background.
3. A pin of Ed Bailey with a black background.
4. An unusual pair of Milwaukee Braves pins (Frank Torre and Bill Bruton) in a different design than those I mentioned involving Aaron, Crandall, and Spahn.
5. An entire set of nine (bootleg) Atlanta Braves pins with red lettering.
6. A pin of Alvin Dark and a pin of Al Lopez with unique designs.
7. Pins of Gene Woodling and Whitey Ford with their names on the bottom.

Out of the 91 large PM10 pins in my book, 74 of them are of the same design: head shot, pale white background, and name at top. The other 17 are listed in 2) through 7) above. I should have been more precise in my language, acknowledging these 17, but stating I was referring to the more "typical" or "conventional" design as reflected in the 74 pins. My sincere apology for over-generalizing. That is the last time I rely on my editor, Brian Williams.

ooo-ribay
03-07-2015, 08:41 PM
Thanks, Paul, for sharing your expertise. Like many collectors, I hope that now that the blog posts have resumed, they will continue.



My sentiments, exactly! I collect a lot of different stuff, from bobbing heads to pennants, but I think pinbacks are my current favorite. I especially like how previously unseen pins continue to turn up. As someone else said....no such thing as TMI.

Of the 17 large PM-10s that do not fit the "conventional" design, I think the Bailey is the most interesting in that it is very similar to few of the 1.75" SF Giants pins....head shot surrounded by an uneven black border.

CobbvLajoie1910
03-09-2015, 08:00 PM
Fascinating read, Paul.

Your scholarship is incredibly appreciated -- thank you!

springpin
03-10-2015, 02:52 PM
Aaron (and others),

Thank you for your very kind words. Sometimes I wonder if anyone else but me appreciates the investigative research that goes into these columns. I have finished the text portion of Part II. I think it is every bit as intriguing as Part I. I am now in the dreaded portion (for me) of loading scans of pins into the column. Please be patient.

Best,

Paul

ooo-ribay
03-10-2015, 03:37 PM
Aaron (and others),

Thank you for your very kind words. Sometimes I wonder if anyone else but me appreciates the investigative research that goes into these columns. I have finished the text portion of Part II. I think it is every bit as intriguing as Part I. I am now in the dreaded portion (for me) of loading scans of pins into the column. Please be patient.

Best,

Paul

MANY of us appreciate it!!

MK
03-10-2015, 03:56 PM
We really do appreciate it Paul. We also wish you had an assistant to help you with the scans or telepathic visualizations :)