LOTG Contest

[MVSNYC]

https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/contest-name-the-player/

Just noticed that Al updated his blog...thought this was a cool contest...I'm stumped, so I figured I'd post it here on Net54.

Good Luck!

[ethicsprof]

stumped here as well.
200 bucks is a great prize.
i'll try a bit more.

best,
barry

[Leon]

Good luck with contest Al...What a great looking postcard too!!

[Howe’s Hunter]

Just thinking, he isn't a major leaguer.....

[Theo_450]

I made a guess. Al, can we guess again?

[Al C.risafulli]

Hi everybody!

Quick update on this: this contest is still open. We've gotten some great theories, some nice guesses, and also some stuff that's WAY out there, but I'm not confident enough in any of the responses at this stage.

I did post some new research on the LOTG blog here: https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2015/02/28/contest-update/

The contest is still open. I'm hoping someone comes in with a slam-dunk, because I'm tearing my hair out over it!

-Al

[wolf441]

The way they are clowning around in the photo, I thought it might be a celebrity of the time (an actor/vaudeville performer) or a club employee (trainer, executive)/family member as he seems pretty short to be a ballplayer (there were certainly many short players, so just a thought...). I did some quick research on-line, but couldn't come up with anyone contemporary to the era that was a close match...

[vintagetoppsguy]

My guess was Ritter. From the updated blog, I guess I wasn't the only one.

I still think it's Ritter :D

[rhettyeakley]

http://starsofthediamond.com/ritter.jpg

here is a closer image of Ritter.

Ritter is listed as 5'9" and Wagner at 5'11". It looks like Wagner towers over the guy in the image.

[vthobby]

http://bklyn.newspapers.com/newspage/57650342/

with the reference in the article that also mentions Wagner and Clarke:

THE SCORE. BROOKLYN'. Name. Alpernvrn, Casey: 3b.

But can't find a name even close in the annals of MLB?!?!?!?!?!?

Hey, if someone gets this based on my findings, I'm claiming half of that $200 credit!

:eek:

Peace, Mike

[vintagetoppsguy]

Ritter is listed as 5'9" and Wagner at 5'11". It looks like Wagner towers over the guy in the image.

One of the reasons that I thought it was Ritter was because of his smaller size (5' 9" 150 lbs). The guy is definitely a lot smaller than Wagner, but for some reason I was thinking Wagner was taller than that. But, you are correct, he does tower over the guy so it couldn't be Ritter. Oh, well.

The eyes and facial lines sure do look similar though.

[x2drich2000]

My original thought was that it was Al Wagner, but I can't find a clear image of him from that time period for a good comparison. I believe the picture has to be from 1909 or later. Based on the uniforms, we know the player in the middle is wearing a 1908 uniform, however, Wagner held out/considered retiring and did not play until after the 1908 season began. Therefore, Honus would not have been in Hot Springs in 1908. I was able to find a team photo from 1911 that shows both Honus and Al, thus proving they were together in Hot Springs at one point, but to me the image is not real clear. Also, I believe Al and Honus were much closer in height than the image suggests. So I'm not so confident in my pick.

DJ

[Steve D]

I'm thinking it might be Otis Clymer.

I also don't believe Honus was really that much bigger than the guy in the middle. If you look closely, Honus is standing on his toes, with his heels in the air. He also appears to be stretching his body in order to look bigger (and he's shrugging his shoulders), while Clarke and the other guy are both sort of scrunched or bending down.

Lastly, if you look at the names, Clarke's name is misspelled, and the middle name could begin with "Cly"

Edited to add:

The problem with it being Clymer is that he left the Pirates in the middle of the 1907 season.

After further research, the middle-man bears a resemblance to Beals Becker, who came up to the Pirates in 1908. That would explain why the guy's wearing a 1908 uniform, since he didn't have a 1907 one. Then again, Becker was not yet 22 years old in the Spring of 1908, while the man in the photo appears to be older than that.

Steve

[milkit1]

I'm saying it's Ritter as well. looks like him. He was a catcher. He played for Brooklyn and I'm pretty sure that's the uniform he's wearing. The 5'9 height could be wrong. I noticed every site has Fred Paynes birthday wrong and height would be a lot harder to confirm over time.

[Jobu]

I agree that this guy looks a LOT like Ritter. However, the Colgan's picture shows that Ritter is a guy with a pretty severely crooked nose at the end, maybe from a break, while Al's photo shows a guy with a similar looking nose that clearly has no hook. This alone seems like enough evidence to say that it isn't Ritter. Unfortunately I have no idea who it is!

[Wite3]

I know that it does not match the name but maybe the name is just wrong as written...but could it be Tommy Leach? He was tiny and was often photographed with Wagner and Clarke...I am horrible at the facial recognition thing though.

[sb1]

Strangely Wagner's pose mimic's Ritter's T206 card.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/bbc/1100/1140/1143fv.jpg

[Jobu]

I wonder if the guy in the middle is a sportswriter, trainer, or front office guy. The picture seems like it follows someone saying "You think you can catch it?" to the guy in the middle as if he isn't a player - with Clarke acting like the guy is clearly going to drop it and Wagner shrugging because he isn't too confident. This could also explain the new uniform on the guy in the middle - he might be modeling the new one for the upcoming season for the players at spring training.

Side note: Isn't speculation grand?

[nolemmings]

I think DJ's point is a good one-- Wagner was not in Hot Springs for Spring Training in 1908. He is wearing a 1907 Pirates uniform. Either the photo is from 1907 and the middle subject is therefore not wearing a Pirates 1908 uniform, or the photo is post-1908 and Wagner is wearing the "old" uniform. Players often wore the preceding year's uniform in the Spring, with the new ones not put on display until the regular season. Thus, it seems less likely that Honus is wearing the "new" 1907 uniform in the photo; moreover, if he were, than how do you explain the other uniform? which would apparently have to be attributed to a college or minor league team in the area, unless Okkonen is wrong on the Brooklyn and Boston uniforms.

More likely this is from 1909, with Honus wearing a two year-old uniform. The further you get from 1909 the less likely he would be wearing an even older uniform. FWIW and since anything goes in this guessing game, let me throw out the wildest theory yet. There was an alderman/magistrate (low level judge) named Louis Alpern from Pittsburgh's 3rd ward in 1909, and there is a person by that name said by Ancestry.com to have been residing in the area in both 1920 and 1940 who was born around 1880, putting him in his late 20's -early 30's in 1909. It looks like he may have been the subject of corruption charges later on, and it's possible he considered himself quite the big shot. Could the photo be of a Pittsburgh politico who wanted his fantasy pic with the local boys of summer? And no, I have not been drinking.

[mybuddyinc]

Actually, when I was checking Baseball Reference*, I had a feeling about Ritter, but thought it was a long shot. But looking at his Chip, it's not to far off.

*
181251

Nose and ears look good, as well as upside down triangle shaped face.

Pushing it, but it does start with A. Nickname "Old Dog" -------> German: "Alte Hund"

[Jobu]

I know Wagner "retired" in 1908, but are we sure he wasn't at spring training anyway? I couldn't find too many dates in a quick search, but this (see March):

http://dev.baseballlibrary.com/chronology/byyear.php?year=1908

shows that the Naps started spring training on March 8 while it lists the date that Wagner announced his retirement on March 16th. If he showed up for spring training and became uphappy with negotiations while there he could have had put in a solid 8 days (if clubs started at similar dates) before calling it quits to force the owner's hand.

[Runscott]

I believe it says 'Alpem', not 'Alpern', and it's a Jewish player.

[nolemmings]

If he showed up for spring training and became uphappy with negotiations while there he could have had put in a solid 8 days (if clubs started at similar dates) before calling it quits to force the owner's hand.
Doubtful. According to the book "Honus Wagner: The Life of Baseball's Flying Dutchman", Wagner looked happy standing at the train station to wave off his teammates on their way to Spring Training in 1908. In April, he played in one exhibition game in Clarke's hometown in Indiana, sparking hope he would return, to which he responded that he had promised Clarke "during the winter" that he would play in the game and he merely kept his promise. No mention of having been in Ark. a week or so before leaving.

[MVSNYC]

My guess.

[Jobu]

Thanks for posting that Todd, I knew someone here would have access to better info than what I found. If Wagner definitely wasn't at spring training in 1908 then I am 100% on board with this having been 1909 as even 1910 seems like too big of a stretch given Wagner's jersey.

Doubtful. According to the book "Honus Wagner: The Life of Baseball's Flying Dutchman", Wagner looked happy standing at the train station to wave off his teammates on their way to Spring Training in 1908. In April, he played in one exhibition game in Clarke's hometown in Indiana, sparking hope he would return, to which he responded that he had promised Clarke "during the winter" that he would play in the game and he merely kept his promise. No mention of having been in Ark. a week or so before leaving.

[Al C.risafulli]

Hi all:

For what it's worth, I also subscribe to the 1909 theory, for the same reason: Wagner wasn't at Spring Training in 1908. He's likely just wearing an old uniform (it is, after all, Spring Training).

Also for what it's worth, I'm also researching this, trying to find the answer. If I figure it out before you guys do, I'm telling everyone!

-Al

[x2drich2000]

Thanks for posting that Todd, I knew someone here would have access to better info than what I found. If Wagner definitely wasn't at spring training in 1908 then I am 100% on board with this having been 1909 as even 1910 seems like too big of a stretch given Wagner's jersey.

I don't think 1910 or 1911 are out of the question, see team picture here (https://flic.kr/p/m9RJxH) I found online from spring 1911 and note the players behinds Wagner appear to have the same 1908/09 jersey (logo on sleeve) as the mystery player while most of the rest have I believe a 1910 jersey (blue button up/collar & no P on front). Also look closely and it does not appear that Wagner has the blue button up/collar, under his sweater suggesting his jersey is older (perhaps 1907? as the collar is grey, not blue)

DJ

[bmarlowe1]

My guess.

This T206 card actually depicts Howie Camnitz. The unknown guy is not Camnitz.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=181300&stc=1&d=1425241692

[Runscott]

????

[Howe’s Hunter]

I believe it says 'Alpem', not 'Alpern', and it's a Jewish player.

Last week, typing in Alpem in Google, it came up with a scanned article from a Salt Lake City newspaper dating to 1911 that mentioned a "Alpems staff of lefties" but like many of the old newpapers that have been scanned, it ran across a whole page, so what might have been the first five words in an article in column five was followed by the first five words in column six. When I went to view the actual scan of the page, it said I had to join the site for $60 a year full access, and I wasn't quite ready to do that. Now today, I can't find that article. :mad:

[nolemmings]

DJ looks to be on fire. Seems that Honus was not at Hot Springs in 1909 either, so the photo is from 1910 or later.

BTW, thanks to a kind board member (angelpece) for digging up a tidbit that keeps me in the running with my guess of magistrate Louis Alpern. Here is a blurb from the Pittsburgh Gazette on March 11, 1911, under the heading HANS WAGNER TO LEAVE TODAY FOR HOT SPRINGS--note the last line:
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/miscellaneous/large/alpern.jpg

So if the photo is from 1911, or if Alpern made a trip with the team to Hot Springs in 1910, he may be the guy--although it will likely be tough to come up with a photo of him from that time for comparison.

[Al C.risafulli]

Todd, I bet you've got it.

-Al

[sb1]

Here is an image of his son Philip, similar nose, and facial features.

http://ak-cache.legacy.net/legacy/images/cobrands/elpasotimes/photos/577494_232835.jpgx?w=130&h=180&option=1&v=0x00000000253e563c

[Jobu]

Nice, looking like it is Louis Alpern assuming he looks anything like his son. I wonder if the Post Gazette's archives or the Pittsburgh Historical Society (http://pittsburghistoricalsociety.com/) would have a photo.

[Runscott]

Yep, we expect a photo by Wednesday.

[iwantitiwinit]

Here ya go, it's sketchy but it's a picture.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19370124&id=flsbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CU0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3709,8208245

aka Squire Alpern

[BaseballYakker]

This is quite interesting. I've done extensive research on Whittington Park in Hot Springs and I can guarantee that this photo is at least 1911 or later based on the location of the grandstand. I would say 1911 is the most likely date, and the player indeed is in a Pittsburgh uniform.

[MVSNYC]

LOTG auction is live today, some killer stuff.

Good luck, Al!

[Jobu]

Did anyone ever find a photo of the squire from the right time period?

[nolemmings]

Not quite yet, but here is some more info. LOTG lot 3 is a photo that appeared in the 3/26/1911 edition of the Pittsburgh Gazette, and also appears to show the same sweater that Clarke was wearing in our mystery photo, perhaps lending further support for a 1911 Spring Training date in the latter.
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/miscellaneous/websize/gazz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/miscellaneous/websize/lotg2.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/miscellaneous/websize/lotg1.jpg

Edited to add that the newspaper photo was not just published but also was taken in March, 2011, as seen in the same 3/26 Gazette:http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverhere/miscellaneous/websize/clarkephoto.jpg

[h2oya311]

DJ looks to be on fire. Seems that Honus was not at Hot Springs in 1909 either, so the photo is from 1910 or later.

BTW, thanks to a kind board member (angelpece) for digging up a tidbit that keeps me in the running with my guess of magistrate Louis Alpern.

Board member (angelpece) helped me with some research I was doing on Whitey Ford back in December. He's turning out to be quite the detective for our modest board. Well done!

[Al C.risafulli]

Hi everyone!

Thought I'd take a moment to introduce you all to Louis Alpern, Pittsburgh alderman and police magistrate.

https://lotgauctions.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/screen-shot-2015-03-11-at-2-20-47-am.png

Alpern was part of a group of nine people that included Tommy Leach and Barney Dreyfus, who headed down to Hot Springs, Arkansas in March of 1911 to join the Pirates at Spring Training.

An article in the March 14, 1911 issue of the Pittsburgh Gazette not only makes reference to Alpern's being at Spring Training, but in a single paragraph, refers to A) how Alpern got a Pirates uniform, B) the 14-pound medicine ball in the background of the photo, and C) the players having fun at the non-players' expense!

You can read the whole story here (https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/we-have-a-winner/).

Needless to say, I'm thrilled to extend a $200 auction credit to Todd, who's "wild theory" turned out to be completely accurate! Todd's research also puts a date on the cabinet photo that is Lot #3 in the current auction, which we had dated to 1910, but is actually 1911.

Congrats, Todd!

Catalogs mailed to active bidders yesterday, and anyone who tried digging into this puzzle is sure to love the cover!

-Al

[Jobu]

Thanks for the update Al. Todd, nice work!

Al, no prize for guessing the conversation? ;)

...The picture seems like it follows someone saying "You think you can catch it?" to the guy in the middle as if he isn't a player - with Clarke acting like the guy is clearly going to drop it and Wagner shrugging because he isn't too confident...