The mysterious T205 cards with GREEN borders....show or tell us of your green T205's

[tedzan]

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/GreenT205xSchlei50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images//websize/GreenT205xSchlei50b.jpg


A Net54 search of this topic reveals an interesting thread 6 years ago.... T205s with green borders (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=118947&highlight=T205+green+borders).

And 4 years ago, there was a lot of 58 green T205's in the REA auction. The lot description hypothesized that the Gold application over the pre-
printed green borders on these cards was simply missed.

I don't think it's as simple as the missing gold application on the green borders. Some other printing anomaly accounts for these green borders.
So, let's review this T205 phenomena with some more opinions; and, perhaps we can solve this mystery. Feel free to chime in with your ideas.

Also, the few green border T205's that I have seen, all have SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #42) red backs.....as my Schlei. What other T205 backs
have you guys seen on these green T205 cards ?


TED Z
.

[EvilKing00]

I do not own a green border back - but just from what I have read id side with the borders having copper or some metal that turns green over time if wet.

[Leon]

Greenies are cool!! This Orval is quite green.

[tedzan]

I like your Mike Mitchell card, as it indicates to us that T205's were not pre-printed with green borders.

Also, I like your green Orval, since it has a red SWEET CAP (Factory #42) back.

I have yet to see any of these greenies with a different T205 back than this one. But, I'll bet that some one will post a greenie with a different T205 back.



TED Z
.

[edjs]

I don't have a T205, but I have seen a photo of one with the gold wearing off, and the paper underneath is green.

[Wite3]

Actually, the color under the gold varies...most often it is yellow or off-white. i think the green printing was an early test run on the Sweet Cap sheet. I own at least 5 or 6 including a Tinker. They are odd and rare and often found in horrific shape.

Joshua

[tedzan]

Joshua

Are you confirming my anecdotal observation that all these greenies were printed with red SWEET CAP backs ?

Or, can we also find them with other T205 backs ? ?


TED Z
.

[asoriano]

I believe these 'green borders' were actually gold borders that simply discolored over time. Thoughts?

Edit: Here are two examples of the yellow and white borders that Josh mentioned.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2cmoh75.pnghttp://i57.tinypic.com/72t174.png

[tedzan]

Yes, I've seen that effect on some of my T205's.

If the greenies are the result of the gold borders gradually disintegrating (or discoloring), I would expect to see partially gold and green bordered cards.

Has anyone seen any such T205's ?


TED Z
.

[Jobu]

Any chance that this is the result of over-soaking?

[EvilKing00]

yes, i've seen that effect on some of my t205's.

If the greenies are the result of the gold borders gradually disintegrating (or discoloring), i would expect to see partially gold and green bordered cards.

Has anyone seen any such t205's ?


ted z
.



177305

[Wite3]

I have done little research into the green borders because I always just thought they were a printing anomaly. The few I own are in my safety deposit box currently but know that the Tinker is a Sweet Cap Red 42 (listed on my inventory sheet b/c of HOF status). Give me a few days and I might be able to get over there and check the other backs.

Handling these cards as much as I do, I do not think it is a discoloration or "rusting" of the gold (real gold does not rust or tarnish although no one really knows what printed metal composite was used). I think it was actually printed with green borders.

And another card showing an incomplete gold application. On this one, you can actually see the white and yellow underneath. This is NOT my card.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1911%20T205%20misprint%202.jpg

Joshua

[jdeptula]

Here's a Dooin that I have with Piedmont Factory 25 back. Border looks green to me, but I still see some traces of gold.

Joe

[Econteachert205]

There was a previous thread about faking t205s where I was corrected by Drcy that the gold borders weren't gold but copper, and that the green color on some was a result of deterioration in the copper which makes sense. However if the green 05s don't seem to have metal applied and only occur in one kind of back, that could definitely mean something else. I have shown my 05s without gold on other threads, they are white and yellow underneath.

[Wite3]

Okay...was able to get my hands on a few of my greenies...there is no back pattern, I was completely wrong on that one...but I am starting to see a different pattern. All my green cards (including my Tinker) are green or teal (greenish blue) backgrounds. Below is a scan of five of my green borders and their backs with a gold border companion for comparison. My scanner is not great but you should be able to tell the difference (esp. on the Pelty and Scott) as they are very green in person and do not have the reflection or shine of the normal gold. Also, note that the gold basepaths are green on the AL cards as well. Note the Pelty, especially as you can see the printed green bleed into the white at the basepaths. Also I choose the Dooin and the Kroh because you can see the yellow of the border underneath the green border. I think they were actually printed green for some reason. Maybe test runs? Maybe cost saving at the end of the runs? who knows....

Joshua

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u266/Wite3/t205greenborders_zpsa13ab612.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u266/Wite3/t205greenbordersbacks_zpsdfc2d1aa.jpg

[Econteachert205]

Joshua, I have owned a few green ones in the past and might have a few now. I notice they still have the trademark border chipping as the gold ones do. When I had a green one early on I was doubtful of, because I didn't know enough about the set, I chipped off a bit and still found the flake had a metallic look underneath, for what it's worth.

[T205 GB]

I have a few and I know several are not SC. I really don't even know where to begin. I posted a thread a while back(may have deleted it also) on this as well as numerous discussions with fellow hobby guys. There are some cards that may have received a light pass an there are some that are completely void of gold all together. There are also some that have faded or worn over time. NO connections or theory really can stick to just a flaw in the printing system. Let's not "T206" this oddity.

[Econteachert205]

I have a few and I know several are not SC. I really don't even know where to begin. I posted a thread a while back(may have deleted it also) on this as well as numerous discussions with fellow hobby guys. There are some cards that may have received a light pass an there are some that are completely void of gold all together. There are also some that have faded or worn over time. NO connections or theory really can stick to just a flaw in the printing system. Let's not "T206" this oddity.


Haha, i laughed at the "not t206 this comment". I agree. I like the "light pass" idea. Also maybe possible that the metallic flake used changed consistency at some point with a slightly different alloy. I love t205s, but I couldn't picture myself paying a premium for a green border, in fact I love the really bright gold ones myself.

[Wite3]

I certainly do not put a premium on these...in fact, most are in such awful shape they can be had cheaply. That being said, I still do not think it is a faded or flaked gold border...here is the Pelty enlarged and you can see the green ink pass where there should be gold over the base paths. What looks like faded gold along the borders is actually the cardboard peeking through the faded and chipped green coloring.


http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u266/Wite3/t205greenborders2_zpsa191e221.jpg

[tedzan]

Thanks guys for confirming that the "greenies" are not limited only with red Sweet Cap (Factory #42) backs.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Here's a large lot of these featured in Rob's auction several years ago. I thought you guys would like to check it out...... 58 green border T205's (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2010/161.html)


I'll offer this observation for what it's worth. There appears to be quite a number of Minor Leaguer's with green borders. And, in another T205 thread
we arrived at the conclusion that the 12 subjects in the Minor League series were printed very late in 1911.

So what I'm alluding to here is that all these T205's with green borders are possibly the result of American Litho. running out of gold ink in their final
press run(s)......thereby using green ink for the borders (instead of gold).

Just another wild Ted Z theory, so please be kind.


TED Z
.

[Econteachert205]

As previously stated it seems most green borders tend to be in lower than normal condition. Curious as to why if they were just the result on an end of production run.

[EvilKing00]

The card i posted before, i just bought, its a polar bear back and its only 1/2 green, not even either, very odd

[asoriano]

Here's a large lot of these featured in Rob's auction several years ago. I thought you guys would like to check it out...... 58 green border T205's (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2010/161.html)


I'll offer this observation for what it's worth. There appears to be quite a number of Minor Leaguer's with green borders. And, in another T205 thread
we arrived at the conclusion that the 12 subjects in the Minor League series were printed very late in 1911.

So what I'm alluding to here is that all these T205's with green borders are possibly the result of American Litho. running out of gold ink in their final
press run(s)......thereby using green ink for the borders (instead of gold).

Just another wild Ted Z theory, so please be kind.


TED Z
.

Ted -

Would there be a possibility that the Minor Leaguers were actually printed in early 1912?

[tedzan]

Based on the bios of most of the 12 subjects in the Minor League series, we know that they had to have been printed very late in 1911......or, in early 1912 as you are suggesting.

There were a good number of gold-bordered (non-sports) sets issued in 1911. So, it isn't far-fetched to think that some of the T205 production was actually carried over into 1912.


TED Z
.

[soxinseven]

I picked this one up a few years ago, looks green to me?

[soxinseven]

The back

[Exhibitman]

Not sure if this helps: My Daubert shows yellow under the area where the gold was supposed to be.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/T205%20errors.JPG

[whelenfan]

Thanks for showing all of these cards! I think that I have one with a greenish border.

[Runscott]

I think T205s were printed with whatever border color made sense for the print set-up. The 'green' border cards are ones, in most cases, where the gold was never applied. I have also had a few green borders where you could tell there had been gold, but it was almost completely rubbed off. I doubt it was due to soaking, as I've soaked plenty of T205's and the gold borders looked fine afterward.

[Bliggity]

I picked this up last night in the Sterling Sports auction. Thought it was neat that the green border looks to be peeking out from under the gold on the right side; looking forward to an in-hand inspection.

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah316/dmblau/Becker_zpsrcvcjyzr.jpg

[ngrow9]

Picked up this green border recently on eBay...

[IMAXMAX]

Not sure if this helps: My Daubert shows yellow under the area where the gold was supposed to be.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/T205%20errors.JPG

just gave this thread a quick read...I think Exhibitman's Daubert provides the best evidence that these cards may have been some kind of prototype( or something of the sort) to the set and not simply the result of the green somehow all falling off/oxidation/chemicals/etc...
Also is interesting that the majority of the green borders are all in a similar state of wear,,,as if they all orginated from one source (???)

[Leon]

Picked up this green border recently on eBay...

Love the bright green ones.

[nat]

I'm resurrecting this old thread because it's what I ran into when looking for information about T205s with green borders. I just picked up this Bender. He was, unfortunately, hole-punched at one point, but other than that he's not in bad shape. The really curious thing is that he's got a paler green color on most of his borders, and spots of darker green along the bottom and the very edge of the sides. He's also got spots where the ink wore off and the cream/yellow card stock shows through (by the tip of the bat).

It's Piedmont factory 25, FWIW.

Some of the cards in this thread seem to demonstrate that there are lighter and darker green T205s, what's strange about this card is that it's both (mostly light, spots of dark). Any idea what this is about? If the difference between light and dark was exposure to sun or humidity or something you'd expect it to be uniform, not leaving spots of dark coloring.

[Leon]

I'm resurrecting this old thread because it's what I ran into when looking for information about T205s with green borders. I just picked up this Bender. He was, unfortunately, hole-punched at one point, but other than that he's not in bad shape. The really curious thing is that he's got a paler green color on most of his borders, and spots of darker green along the bottom and the very edge of the sides. He's also got spots where the ink wore off and the cream/yellow card stock shows through (by the tip of the bat).

It's Piedmont factory 25, FWIW.

Some of the cards in this thread seem to demonstrate that there are lighter and darker green T205s, what's strange about this card is that it's both (mostly light, spots of dark). Any idea what this is about? If the difference between light and dark was exposure to sun or humidity or something you'd expect it to be uniform, not leaving spots of dark coloring.

It seems ink passes and oxidation account for a lot of these.

[Jobu]

As a Green Bay Packers fan it is appropriate that I have a green and a yellow.

[Leon]

Love the yellow one, Bryan. I don't have the ones posted above, from a few years ago, anymore but I did get this Ewing from Scott on the BST yesterday...

As a Green Bay Packers fan it is appropriate that I have a green and a yellow.

[Jobu]

Sharpe shows yellow where part of the gold didn't print and Schmidt shows a combo of gold and green borders, with the latter appearing to line up where there is glue on the back.

[CrackaJackKid]

I recently bought one in a lot that at first believe it was a fake until I stumbled upon this thread. How rare are these or any type of premium?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Lot of debate as to whether they should be considered a legit variation. You can find people who will pay something extra for them, but not ton, at least on commons.

Maybe Leon will share the picture of the BLUE border I sold him!

[insidethewrapper]

Why are all the green borders in such bad shape ? Are they real ? Are they made to look bad and old like many other forgeries ? Just curious .

[JustinD]

I admit that I am not in the know that much on T205, but this question is the only one I have on the thread.

Does anyone have any examples of the same card with the same back that displays the green on one and the yellow/white on the other?

I just have a hard time without not thinking it is the card design and missing the gold pass or it came off without seeing two different examples with the same back. If modern Topps cards are missing the foil pass constantly, missing it in 1911 is logical.

Just a quick question, if two of the same are well known then don't toast me. :)

[Leon]

Why are all the green borders in such bad shape ? Are they real ? Are they made to look bad and old like many other forgeries ? Just curious .

My guess, as has been discussed, is the green borders are oxidized to look that way naturally. OF course they could have also missed a color pass too.

[kdixon]

Picked up this Wheat with a weird green spot on the edge . Found this old thread sort of on the subject.

[asoriano]

http://i67.tinypic.com/2w6dswn.jpg

[Leon]

That is a great looking card.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2w6dswn.jpg

[obcmac]

Here is one with a partial green border. I agree with the oxidized theory.

[drumback]

Here’s another one.

[soxinseven]

I picked this Carrigan up a few years ago, definitely green.

[soxinseven]

.

[Leon]

Nice. That is a pronounced green. The Collins in this group is teetering on green but not quite ....There are almost an infinite number of shades on these gold border cards.
I picked this Carrigan up a few years ago, definitely green.

http://luckeycards.com/t205pageC3.jpg

[RCMcKenzie]

That yellow-bordered Paskert is wild. It looks like there are all sorts of shades of color besides gold. These are sort of a greenish-blue. These 2 have very similar cuts and wear patterns...

[Bill77]

My two Beckers. The Green one has a Hassan 30 back and the other is a Polar Bear.

[BabyRuth]

I just thumbed trough my T205 set and a found a few greenies, most notably some guy named Cy Young!!

[chlankf]

Went through my T205s last night. Here are the ones I have.

Light green border on Harmon and Murray.
Dark green border on Engle, Krause and Ames

[Jamie_h]

For what its worth, I'd be in the oxidation camp as well. Only for the fact I've seen Gibson GoldTop Guitars turn the same way. It appears the more moisture and wear on the guitar finish, the more green the paint oxidized. See below:

[bbcard1]

Here's my offering. It's as green as it gets, sweet cap back and yes, in awful shape.