Cheatriots At It Again....

[pgellis]

Bill Belicheat and Shady Brady at it again. 11 of 12 balls were underinflated during Sunday's AFC Championship Game.

Anything to get an advantage.

Caught cheating again!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Bill Belicheat and Shady Brady at it again. 11 of 12 balls were underinflated during Sunday's AFC Championship Game.

Anything to get an advantage.

Caught cheating again!

Looks like that ball boy missed one. :D

...waiting for the Patriots apologists to chime in on this one.

[pgellis]

I think they held one back in case someone (officials) picked up on it, they can throw the "good ball" right into the mix and try to deceive further....

[CardboardCollector]

The cold can shrink your balls. 🏈

[vintagetoppsguy]

It obviously had no effect on the game (Colts just didn't come to play), but it does show the lengths the Patriots will go to in order to win.

[pgellis]

The cold can shrink your balls. ��

It was 51 degrees at kickoff. How come the Colts balls didn't deflate too?

[vintagetoppsguy]

It was 51 degrees at kickoff. How come the Colts balls didn't deflate too?

I think he was making a joke.

But, you are correct. I was just waiting for someone to blame the weather and I was going to say the same thing.

[Econteachert205]

Im a New England sports fan. To me it is the Red Sox first and everything else is a poor secondary diversion. At any rate I look at the Patriots and their fans, the real die hards, as a bit cultish. They arent particularly likable, but i do get a kick out of how indignant and crybabyish people get about their cheating. Actually watching people cry and gnash teeth about sports issues (outside of the red sox) is probably one of the funniest things going. But yeah, the Pats are pretty unlikable for the most part.

[steve B]

I mentioned an article in the other thread, and can't find it. But there's a newer one with more detail.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2015/01/report_patriots_may_have_deflated_footballs_for_af .html

The important bit.....

"ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots footballs were tested during halftme, re-inflated after when they were found to be under-inflated, then the balls put back in play for the second half and then tested again after the game. "

So a 10 point lead with the underinflated balls and 28-0 for the second half using properly inflated balls.
Hint, if your team scores a whole 7 points in the game and allows 28 unanswered points in the second half the problem isn't the balls. (Maybe start with an inability to stop the run...)

Steve B

[pgellis]

I mentioned an article in the other thread, and can't find it. But there's a newer one with more detail.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2015/01/report_patriots_may_have_deflated_footballs_for_af .html

The important bit.....

"ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots footballs were tested during halftme, re-inflated after when they were found to be under-inflated, then the balls put back in play for the second half and then tested again after the game. "



So a 10 point lead with the underinflated balls and 28-0 for the second half using properly inflated balls.
Hint, if your team scores a whole 7 points in the game and allows 28 unanswered points in the second half the problem isn't the balls. (Maybe start with an inability to stop the run...)

Steve B

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

[DHogan]

I'm from Massachusetts. I don't like the Patriots. I guess I'm a horrible person. :p

[itjclarke]

Not being a Pats apologist here... but I think it's silly the league and media are making such a big deal about this. I'd be nearly certain that teams have been doing this regularly for decades and no one cared (until now). If one QB liked to throw a slightly deflated ball, he'd do that... if one preferred to throw a fully inflated ball, he'd do that (Aaron Rodgers prefers this). If wet or cold conditions made the ball more slick, you could let some air out.. just like you'd put on longer cleats to play in mud. When I was in HS, it was regular to practice with worn out, highly inflated balls, then play games with nice new, lesser inflated balls (almost as a reward).

To the argument all balls need to be exactly the same-- On every other level, a team choses their game ball, brand, spec, etc, and these balls can vary quite a bit. There used to the fatter Wilson 1001 ball, and a thinner 1005 "passing ball". You'd see both of these being used as game balls in college/HS based on a team's preference. Different brand balls are different too...Nike balls may have a slightly different feel than Rawlings or Wilson... balls with painted white stripes feel different than those with sown in white stripes, which provide better grip.

At some point the NFL decided to micromanage this.. I think this is relatively recent, probably around the same time they decided to use the "K" ball for special teams. Meanwhile they've made their ball fatter and fatter over the years (though I'm sure it's probably claimed the spec's the same).

I understand that "rules are rules", but that doesn't mean some aren't more chickensh*t than others. To me Deflate-gate is in the same realm as the pine tar incident.

[sox1903wschamp]

Bill Belicheat and Shady Brady at it again. 11 of 12 balls were underinflated during Sunday's AFC Championship Game.

Anything to get an advantage.

Caught cheating again!

I love this guy. How about those Packers!

[pgellis]

How bout those Deflatriots !

[Econteachert205]

If the patriots were a card cheating technique would they be a black sharpie on a 71 topps? A trimmed card? A shill bid? Something else?

[Prof_Plum]

If the patriots were a card cheating technique would they be a black sharpie on a 71 topps? A trimmed card? A shill bid? Something else? To me, nothing nearly that heinous. Maybe soaking.

[pgellis]

AH HAHAHA!

Belicheat just threw Shady Brady under the bus!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TUM301]

Only one person has the say on the inflation, deflation, of game balls, the starting QB. Having never really thought about it before but I`m guessing mostly due to recent stories that it`s pretty common practice among all NFL teams. Someone mentioned the "pine tar incident" which sounds about right. To me sounds like it`s fairly common knowledge between teams that they both agree to leave alone. P S on a side note as a Pats fan think I`d rather play the North/South Seahawks than the spread em out quick strike Packers.

[steve B]

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

It is against the rules, but I think it's an area where the rules are perhaps a bit over the top. And from the comments of players from other teams especially quarterbacks it looks like a rule that's regularly ignored. Nobody seems to be calling for the heads of anyone on the Packers when their QB has stated he has them overinflate the game balls for him. And nearly all QBs have the balls scuffed a certain way.

On the technical end, I'd like to see what sort of setup they're using to inflate and test. I worked with gauges a lot in hydraulics, and depending on the type their accuracy can be pretty suspect. Most are less accurate at the ends of the range, pretty decent ones are 3% at the top and bottom of the range, and 2% in the middle. So if they're using a decent 0-25 psi guage the readings should all be very accurate. But if they're using a gauge with a bigger range that's cheaper - like a bicycle pump with a built in guage- the reading could easily be off. And if the refs check with the same guage so they don't have to bring their own they'll get the same wrong result. Checking with a proper setup after a complaint will show all the supposedly correct readings to be wrong.
The little tire gauges that come from Wal-Mart etc are nowhere near accurate enough.

The NFL must be loving the extra publicity. And in the end what I think will happen is a fine, the rules call for 25 thousand, and they'll probably multiply that times 11 to fine for each ball as it's own infraction.

They should change the rules to have the league supply the balls, or find a way to add something like a tamper proof sticker over the valve that the refs would apply. A tampered sticker could then be reported by the refs and the fining could be done quickly.
Or to get a bit crazy, there's enough technology that it should be possible to make a self inflating ball that would adjust for different temperatures.

I can't say I blame the Colts for reporting it. Any rules infraction that you can get your opponent busted for is something to consider especially at playoff time. Right now the Pats are big targets, just like the Yankees have been in baseball. They're good enough that everyone wants an edge, and will report stuff that they wouldn't report another team for. Usually the commonly broken rules are let slide because every team is doing something that's either against the rules or falls into a gray area. And if you report the other team, they just might report what ever you're doing.

Steve B

[pgellis]

Here's the difference with Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers has admitted that he likes over-inflated balls, but when they are brought to the officials and they take some air out of them, he doesn't have someone go back to the balls before kickoff and re-inflate them.

What's being thrown at the Deflatriots is that the balls were checked and were deemed legal, then between that check and half-time, someone deflated 11 out of 12 balls.

And to put possible blame on the instruments being used is a joke. If those "bad" instruments were used to measure the Colts balls too, how come those didn't show under-inflation? How do 11 out of 12 balls basically measure exactly the same? Coincidence? No.

[nolemmings]

Brian Billick was just on Mike and Mike and led off his comments by adamantly denying (and being slightly incensed by) the notion that everybody does this. He says that everyone does scuff up the balls to their liking, mostly so as to take off a layer of lacquer that comes with new footballs, but that the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?

[pgellis]

Here you go:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/pereira-on-deflate-gate-this-is-cheating-and-it-is-something-the-league-will-deal-with-harshly/vi-AA8roRM

[Runscott]

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

Belicheck implied that the Patriots start off with 12.5 balls (extreme low end), and that they deflated for some reason unknown to him, but that in the future he would start them at 13.3 (I believe that was the number) to account for a margin of error. If the Pats start off at the low end (12.5), it's obvious they know that Brady likes them under-inflated. And with Belichek's attention to detail, I find it hard to believe he wasn't aware of a required range and that he didn't approve the 12.5 number. Given that, he had to know how the process for handling the balls, although he denied any knowledge of that process.

If he lied in today's press conference, he's screwed - someone (former player, equipment manager, etc) will remember some detail from the past that will burn him.

[pgellis]

Belicheck implied that the Patriots start off with 12.5 balls (extreme low end), and that they deflated for some reason unknown to him, but that in the future he would start them at 13.3 (I believe that was the number) to account for a margin of error. If the Pats start off at the low end (12.5), it's obvious they know that Brady likes them under-inflated. And with Belichek's attention to detail, I find it hard to believe he wasn't aware of a required range and that he didn't approve the 12.5 number. Given that, he had to know how the process for handling the balls, although he denied any knowledge of that process.

If he lied in today's press conference, he's screwed - someone (former player, equipment manager, etc) will remember some detail from the past that will burn him.

He knows about the process for handling the balls......gimme a break. He knows every letter in the operations manual.

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

[Runscott]

He knows about the process for handling the balls......gimme a break. He knows every letter in the operations manual.

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

I guarantee you Belicheck talked with Brady about this. He would have asked Brady (if he didn't already know the answer): "Do you have the equipment manager or anyone else deflate the balls?" If no hanky-panky went on, Belicheck would have said as much. He would have simply said: "We do nothing to the balls after the officials checked them." He knows the answer.

[Runscott]

Wow. Brady wants his footballs at 12.5 but couldn't feel that they were light?!? Yikes. This is going to blow up in their face.

[vintagetoppsguy]

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

Maybe it was colder on the Patriots sideline than it was the Colts :D

[HRBAKER]

Or maybe the Patriots figured out how to overinflate the Colts balls. It's a lot of fun to watch when the team that is so easy to hate gives the haters even more reason to get agitated.

[Runscott]

Most believable analysis of the two press conferences is that Belichek threw Brady under the bus and Brady then threw his equipment manager under the bus. Shit flows downhill for sure.

Meanwhile, the Pats players are all talking the Belichek mantra, but things will come out as players change teams. Back-up QB Jimmy Garoppolo would be the logical first one to talk, as soon as he leaves the team....guessing he sees a fat raise over the off-season.

[itjclarke]

This is so stupid. I don't care what Mike Pereria, or Billick say. If the league had been at all serious about enforcement, they would simply have supply game balls to both teams during the course of a game, not prior... however they don't and never have. In turn QBs have always had the opportunity to customize balls per their wants, and have.

As said before, on any/all other levels of football, each team plays with their own chosen game balls (which can vary considerably)... and players/coaches are allowed to choose the balls that best suit them. For the NFL to make this a big deal now is a joke. The league and press are latching onto this story because it draws more attention to the SB... and frankly draws attention away from some of the other shortcomings of Goodell and the league.

[Jim65]

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some low level locker room attendant type comes forward to say he did it and Brady/Belichick knew nothing about it. I hope at least the team compensates him for his selfless sacrifice. ;)

[vintagetoppsguy]

If people want to justify bad behavior, so be it. It kinda reminds me of the Probstein (shilling) thread.

And as far as it being a serious matter, like Todd said, “the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?”

I’m sure the league will make the right decision. Here’s an excerpt from the letter that Goodell sent to Belichick after the Spygate incident, “calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field.”

I truly believe that this incident will be dealt with more harshly than Spygate (given this isn’t their first offense). The Patriots aren’t Probstein and Goodell isn’t eBay. This matter isn’t just going to go away. Something will be done, sit back and watch.

[clydepepper]

GOOD ONE, DAVID !

I’m sure the league will make the right decision

If people want to justify bad behavior, so be it. It kinda reminds me of the Probstein (shilling) thread.

And as far as it being a serious matter, like Todd said, “the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?”

I’m sure the league will make the right decision. Here’s an excerpt from the letter that Goodell sent to Belichick after the Spygate incident, “calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field.”

I truly believe that this incident will be dealt with more harshly than Spygate (given this isn’t their first offense). The Patriots aren’t Probstein and Goodell isn’t eBay. This matter isn’t just going to go away. Something will be done, sit back and watch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Belichick and Brady seemed perfectly credible to me. :eek:

[Runscott]

In turn QBs have always had the opportunity to customize balls per their wants, and have.

To a point. All they are saying is that the Patriots crossed a clearly-defined line, which is pressure in the balls - heck, they gave them a fairly large range to work within. If anything, this draws attention TO the shortcomings of the NFL and Goodell.

[nolemmings]

The league and press are latching onto this story because it draws more attention to the SB... and frankly draws attention away from some of the other shortcomings of Goodell and the league.

The League wanted no part of this. This has been the worst season from a public relations standpoint that the NFL has endured in years, IMO. Yet the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson issues had finally died down. There were wild rumors about Rice being signed late by Pittsburgh to help with RB depth during the playoff chase, and coach Zimmer openly stated that he wants and expects AP to be a big part of the Vikings offense next year– in both cases the public outrage in these stories was long gone. The recent controversial endings to the Dallas/Detroit and Green Bay/Dallas games had also been an embarrassment or at least sore spot for the NFL, yet it looked like those were overcome. Now this– no way Goodell and company are happy about it, and if anything, it puts unwanted attention back on them.

Regardless of whether you think it is a major rules violation, it is a straightforward violation nonetheless, and a slap in the face of league authority. And as often happens, I believe the coverup will be worse than the crime. The Pats should have hunkered down with no comment through this week and then ducked the questions next week on the theory that we were preparing for the big game. The proper response, IMO, would be no press conference but just a simple release saying they were aware of these irregularities with the footballs and would cooperate fully with NFL investigators when questioned about it. The wink-wink of that scenario would be that Goodell would not get around to or at least would not complete his “full investigation” until after the Super Bowl, so any penalty would await next year and the overall fervor would die down. They may get that same result anyway–you heard Brady say yesterday that the league has not even questioned him about it yet– but those press conferences, especially Brady’s, bring their own harm and bad publicity and did little or nothing to calm the situation.

[Runscott]

Some people are saying Brady should come clean, but can you really admit that you told your equipment manager to deflate balls after they had been inspected by the officials? I think the equipment manager takes the fall on this for acting based on what he thought Brady would like, and Brady continues to deny.

[GoldenAge50s]

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

QB Damond Huard (long time NFL backup QB) said he inflated a fb to 13 lbs, felt it and deflated to 11 lbs, a full 1 1/2 lbs under allowance, and could not feel a noticable difference!

The grip is MUCH more important to a QB anyhow, not the inflation---ANY QB will tell you that, incl Mark Brunell.

Why is no one questioning the refs, who probably do no more than pick up each ball and give it a sqeeze and say "These are fine". You don't think they go in there w/ needles & guages & spend alot of pregame time, do you?

My guess is the Patriots have always inflated the balls to the min 12.5 and by halftime of ANY game they probably have fallen a bit below that.

There is no heinous crime here, Pats haters!

[HRBAKER]

Let me preface this by saying I am not a Patriots fan. I am a Cardinals fan, hard to believe but true. However I do believe that if this was any other NFL team this would been a day to a day and half story at most. Doesn't make it right, or not cheating if deliberate misconduct took place (which is the most logical explanation).

[pgellis]

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

QB Damond Huard (long time NFL backup QB) said he inflated a fb to 13 lbs, felt it and deflated to 11 lbs, a full 1 1/2 lbs under allowance, and could not feel a noticable difference!

The grip is MUCH more important to a QB anyhow, not the inflation---ANY QB will tell you that, incl Mark Brunell.

Why is no one questioning the refs, who probably do no more than pick up each ball and give it a sqeeze and say "These are fine". You don't think they go in there w/ needles & guages & spend alot of pregame time, do you?

My guess is the Patriots have always inflated the balls to the min 12.5 and by halftime of ANY game they probably have fallen a bit below that.

There is no heinous crime here, Pats haters!

How come the Colts balls didn't deflate at all and how come the Pats balls didn't deflate in the second half after they were re-inflated at half time and it got much colder in the 2nd half.

A culture of cheating with the Patriots.

[Ladder7]

Nice how you convict before knowing the facts and the investigation concludes. Guilty til proven innocent. The new American way.

[steve B]

Here's the difference with Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers has admitted that he likes over-inflated balls, but when they are brought to the officials and they take some air out of them, he doesn't have someone go back to the balls before kickoff and re-inflate them.

What's being thrown at the Deflatriots is that the balls were checked and were deemed legal, then between that check and half-time, someone deflated 11 out of 12 balls.

And to put possible blame on the instruments being used is a joke. If those "bad" instruments were used to measure the Colts balls too, how come those didn't show under-inflation? How do 11 out of 12 balls basically measure exactly the same? Coincidence? No.

No, it's hardly a joke. It would be if proper equipment and process was used, but we don't know that. Considering the information in this article I'd have to wonder if ANY equipment or process was used before the game.


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/super-bowl-xlix/deflate-gate-nfl-ball-boys-perspective-preparing-footballs-n290801

From the above
"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

Yeah, handling the game balls and squeezing them. There's no way anyone gets that right within +- .5 psi.

Then go back to HS science class. Remember the gas laws? You know, the ones that relate temperature to pressure?

http://www.wcsh6.com/story/weather/2015/01/20/inflate-gate-weather-roll/22065861/

"83,244.6 Pa is 11.8 psi, so, according to these calculations, the balls could have been under-inflated by 0.7 psi on the field, just due to the change in temperature from inside to outside."

There's most of the supposed 2 psi difference.

2% error on a decent 0-25psi guage is ---- .5 psi. And on the low end of the range the error is almost always to read low.

Total change+total error = 1.2 psi.

If the guage wasn't 0-25, but 0-100 the error on the end of the range is 3% making the difference more like 1.5 psi.

The claim is 2 psi under. Media rounding? or an actual measurement. And if the gauges the refs used were 0-100 then the markings aren't usually every psi, but every 5. Seeing the difference between 11 and 10.5 isn't easy especially if you're in a hurry - like if all you've got is halftime and you still have your normal work as well.

If they use better stuff? Yeah, there's a problem with 2 psi, and the .7 from the temperature difference should have been added. But we're not hearing about what accuracy they have available. Just the hand wringing over an accusation.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

QB Damond Huard (long time NFL backup QB) said he inflated a fb to 13 lbs, felt it and deflated to 11 lbs, a full 1 1/2 lbs under allowance, and could not feel a noticable difference!

The grip is MUCH more important to a QB anyhow, not the inflation---ANY QB will tell you that, incl Mark Brunell.

Why is no one questioning the refs, who probably do no more than pick up each ball and give it a sqeeze and say "These are fine". You don't think they go in there w/ needles & guages & spend alot of pregame time, do you?

My guess is the Patriots have always inflated the balls to the min 12.5 and by halftime of ANY game they probably have fallen a bit below that.

There is no heinous crime here, Pats haters!

Wow, Fred. There's actually quite a bit in the newspapers and on television regarding this - you should take in some of it.

[Runscott]

No, it's hardly a joke. It would be if proper equipment and process was used, but we don't know that. Considering the information in this article I'd have to wonder if ANY equipment or process was used before the game.


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/super-bowl-xlix/deflate-gate-nfl-ball-boys-perspective-preparing-footballs-n290801

From the above
"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

Yeah, handling the game balls and squeezing them. There's no way anyone gets that right within +- .5 psi.

Then go back to HS science class. Remember the gas laws? You know, the ones that relate temperature to pressure?

http://www.wcsh6.com/story/weather/2015/01/20/inflate-gate-weather-roll/22065861/

"83,244.6 Pa is 11.8 psi, so, according to these calculations, the balls could have been under-inflated by 0.7 psi on the field, just due to the change in temperature from inside to outside."

There's most of the supposed 2 psi difference.

2% error on a decent 0-25psi guage is ---- .5 psi. And on the low end of the range the error is almost always to read low.

Total change+total error = 1.2 psi.

If the guage wasn't 0-25, but 0-100 the error on the end of the range is 3% making the difference more like 1.5 psi.

The claim is 2 psi under. Media rounding? or an actual measurement. And if the gauges the refs used were 0-100 then the markings aren't usually every psi, but every 5. Seeing the difference between 11 and 10.5 isn't easy especially if you're in a hurry - like if all you've got is halftime and you still have your normal work as well.

If they use better stuff? Yeah, there's a problem with 2 psi, and the .7 from the temperature difference should have been added. But we're not hearing about what accuracy they have available. Just the hand wringing over an accusation.

Steve B

Steve, no offense but I suspect most of your guesses about the gauges used (and whether or not the balls were instead squeezed) is wrong.

Since this is a discussion forum, I'm going to guess that the gauges were accurate and that they were used by the referees. I'm sure that will come out after the Superbowl, but that's my 'guess' for now. This would not be a big deal if it was easily explained away, and according to every other former quarterback who has been questioned, this actually IS a big deal and a violation of the rules that quarterbacks do NOT normally perform.

Roughing up balls is legal, deflating them after they have been approved by the refs, is not legal. Yes, everyone roughs up balls. No, everyone does not deflate them. Perhaps more teams deflate them than just the Patriots, but we haven't yet heard from anyone who knows that to be true.

The ball are created to NOT deflate during games, regardless of weather and temperature conditions. If you were flying them on airplanes, you might have issues, but they are checked just before the game.

Perhaps we will find one of the following occurred, but I'm guessing it will be the last point:

the Patriots used 11 balls that were flawed and lost air, despite the fact that they were designed not to.
the referees did not use a guage, but just 'squeezed' the balls
the referees used a guage that had a margin of error that made any measurements a joke
the equipment manager knew that Brady liked his balls a bit below 12.5, and so let some air out, hoping no one would notice.

[pgellis]

The Deflatriot apologists need to do a little reading or listen to the radio for a bit before coming up with some idiotic excuses.
Start with this:
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

Read the official NFL statement released this afternoon.

Basically the NFL is stating that all the balls were properly tested before the game, then at half-time and then again after the game. The only inconsistency was with the Pats balls from before kickoff to half-time. That meant some person let air out of those 11 (maybe all 12) balls.

The Pats balls didn't deflate at all during the 2nd half, when the temperature drop was more dramatic, so please stop talking about the temperature.

Your coach is a cheater and now your beloved quarterback will be proven not only a liar, but also a cheater.

Shady Brady should be suspended for the Super Bowl, but we all know that won't happen...what a shame.

[nolemmings]

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

It's my birthday and I admit I am at least half in the bag, but you can stick that completely up your ass.

[GoldenAge50s]

How come the Colts balls didn't deflate at all and how come the Pats balls didn't deflate in the second half after they were re-inflated at half time and it got much colder in the 2nd half.

A culture of cheating with the Patriots.

Phil--I already said that they probably were on the edge of 12.5 to start with, so any change at all puts them under the min.

ONE past violation (spygate) does NOT a culture make.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Wow, Fred. There's actually quite a bit in the newspapers and on television regarding this - you should take in some of it.

Scott---I would dare say I've watched & read as much, or more, than MOST have these past few days (retired & at home, so my TV is on all day) You are only hearing what MOST of the talking heads say, but not ALL of them. CNN this PM had 3 straight ex-players (Huard included) that believe BOTH Belichick & Brady do not truly know what happened. It's NOT ALL willing to convict before the facts, that's for sure.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your coach is a cheater and now your beloved quarterback will be proven not only a liar, but also a cheater.

Phil---John Harbaugh thought the same thing until the League said otherwise & proved Belichick is a genius who is smart enough to USE the rules to his advantage and the other Coaches have no clue. Again, 15 straight years of success are just too much for some people & they look for anything to bring down a team that wins too much!

I don't believe Brady lied or cheated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

It's my birthday and I admit I am at least half in the bag, but you can stick that completely up your ass.

Sure glad I didn't write 3 or 4 paragraphs!

[Runscott]

Phil--I already said that they probably were on the edge of 12.5 to start with, so any change at all puts them under the min.

Fred, my guess is that most of the people commenting on this situation, are NOT Patriot haters - I'm NFC, so if this were the 49'ers or Eagles I would be biased, but not so here. I kind of like the Patriots and hope there ends up being an honest explanation for this. I respect Brady as a great quarterback who is well-spoken and has a bit more fire than some. And I wouldn't change my level of respect for him if I found out that he did operate on the edge of the rules. But if it turns out that he is lying about this, then all of that changes. We don't know one way or the other yet, so I'll certainly reserve judgement. The truth will come out - I think it's impossible to hide in this case.

Belichek is now a known cheater, but prior to the spying incident with the Jets I had the utmost respect for him. His story is really amazing - a normal guy like any of the rest of us, who turned his love for football into a job, and became possibly the best ever at it. Patriot-hating is not on most people's minds as much as the Pats fans would like to think. You love yourselves a lot more than others hate you.

But to your point - of course the balls were on the edge of 12.5 psi, and even a .1 drop would have technically made it a rules violation. But a 2 psi drop? C'mon.

[itjclarke]

The League wanted no part of this. This has been the worst season from a public relations standpoint that the NFL has endured in years, IMO. Yet the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson issues had finally died down. There were wild rumors about Rice being signed late by Pittsburgh to help with RB depth during the playoff chase, and coach Zimmer openly stated that he wants and expects AP to be a big part of the Vikings offense next year– in both cases the public outrage in these stories was long gone. The recent controversial endings to the Dallas/Detroit and Green Bay/Dallas games had also been an embarrassment or at least sore spot for the NFL, yet it looked like those were overcome. Now this– no way Goodell and company are happy about it, and if anything, it puts unwanted attention back on them.

Regardless of whether you think it is a major rules violation, it is a straightforward violation nonetheless, and a slap in the face of league authority. And as often happens, I believe the coverup will be worse than the crime. The Pats should have hunkered down with no comment through this week and then ducked the questions next week on the theory that we were preparing for the big game. The proper response, IMO, would be no press conference but just a simple release saying they were aware of these irregularities with the footballs and would cooperate fully with NFL investigators when questioned about it. The wink-wink of that scenario would be that Goodell would not get around to or at least would not complete his “full investigation” until after the Super Bowl, so any penalty would await next year and the overall fervor would die down. They may get that same result anyway–you heard Brady say yesterday that the league has not even questioned him about it yet– but those press conferences, especially Brady’s, bring their own harm and bad publicity and did little or nothing to calm the situation.

If anything, this draws attention TO the shortcomings of the NFL and Goodell.

I was a little tipsy when I wrote my post last night, and do think I overstated if I hinted the league actually wanted this as a distraction to take focus off their own issues. I definitely also agree that the response (or cover up) is worse than the crime. That being said, I think seeing the league jump to action, interview 40+ Pats employees so far, and trying to look like the ever vigilant enforcers is laughable. Contrast the rapidity of this response with the months it took Mueller to investigate and eventually tell us nothing new about whether the league had viewed the 2nd Ray Rice video. Goodell and Co are a joke, and when they want to hide and play the waiting game, they're as effective as Michael Corleone in Sicily (they knew AP and Rice stories would go stale if they could just wait)... but when they see a very manageable opportunity to prove their "integrity", like deflate-gate, they're up front and center. I also do think, even if more PR damage is being done, Goodell is probably at least somewhat happy seeing another person play league villain... this of course is just my own hunch.

I'll never be convinced this incident is a big deal. I think the referenced Damon Huard comment seems plausible. Lots of opinions being offered about how big and blatant a 2 psi difference is, etc, but wouldn't it be fun to do a blind psi test of footballs and see if people could actually easily identify a 11 psi ball, compared to a 12 or 13. If the NFL wants to impose a regimented program for controlling, providing, monitoring game balls, and to stop allowing team supplied balls and alterations, so be it... it will then be a big deal if someone breaks these rules. Until then, I don't see how it can be made a big deal if enforcement has been nearly non existent for decades.

I also haven't had much time, nor do I really care to dig deeply into the coverage of this story, but I will say I don't trust the views of many many of the people I've seen cover the NFL. Many may be employed by the NFL network, others are granted great access and don't want to jeopardize that... others just have no clue. Years ago I shared an apartment with an oft times nationally syndicated sports radio host. I watched a Super Bowl with him and could not believe how little he truly knew football (couldn't tell a traditional 5 step drop from a QB in the shotgun, and so on)... yet he'd made a career talking about it, and even scarier, talked politics too. In the end, I realized most of his takes were just borrowed/taken from other talking heads, and there was limited originality in his "opinions". I'll continue to trust my gut on this one, and hope this does not overshadow what is a very compelling on field match up.

[pgellis]

Phil--I already said that they probably were on the edge of 12.5 to start with, so any change at all puts them under the min.

ONE past violation (spygate) does NOT a culture make.

Fred, come on. These balls were "at least" 2 PSI below the minimum. That's almost 20% less than a fully inflated ball.

What do you think happened to them? Why were they below minimum (by at least 2 PSI) at half time? How come, after they were re-inflated at half-time, they didn't lose any pressure during the 2nd half?

Brady said in his press conference that he loves a ball at 12.5 PSI. Don't you think a QB at his level could tell there was a difference in these balls?

I think that they have been deflating balls for years, that certainly explains how their team fumble rate is off the charts compared to all the other 31 NFL teams.

Also, I think one big lie both Belicheat and Shady told was that they didn't learn about the situation until Monday morning. They stopped the game to change balls. Don't you think that was why they were still throwing late in the 4th Quarter when the game was already over. They were pi##ed off that the Colts called them on it.

Read this article about their "culture". I know it's one man's opinion that lost to NE in a Super Bowl and he does mention that he doesn't have any solid evidence because Goodell got rid of all the evidence after SpyGate.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12216634/former-carolina-panthers-gm-marty-hurney-angry-spygate-amid-new-england-patriots-controversy

Tainted Super Bowls and tainted careers for both.

[Ladder7]

When did we start relying on our honorable, unbiased press to determine guilt. I must have not been paying attention in class. Mistakenly, I believed the country I grew up in, is committed to a trial before ruling on guilt. Until then, the appropriate punishment be dished out.

[rats60]

When did we start relying on our honorable, unbiased press to determine guilt. I must have not been paying attention in class. Mistakenly, I believed the country I grew up in, is committed to a trial before ruling on guilt. Until then, the appropriate punishment be dished out.

What country have you been living in? I could list examples all day, but I'll just post the most obvious, the situation that Penn State football has just gone through. There's no innocent until proven guilty. There is no requirement of proof of guilt beyond any standard.

If you live in the USA, then you obviously weren't paying attention in class. Those standards only apply to our criminal justice system. Any where else those standards do not apply. You must be living under a rock or never watch or read the news, because people are convicted in the court of public and punishments applied regularly. I am amazed that someone living in this country could post the above, but then this is the internet.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Mistakenly, I believed the country I grew up in, is committed to a trial before ruling on guilt.

LOL! This isn't the criminal court system. What trial? The proof is all there, they're just finishing up the investigation. Then, Goodell will hand out the punishment. Expect it to be harsh.


I am amazed that someone living in this country could post the above, but then this is the internet.

Agreed.

[yanks12025]

Sorry but I gotta chime in here. Patriots fans or pretty much most of New England fans(mainly Red Sox and patriot fans) have to be the biggest hypocrites in all of sports. The patriots have been caught cheating not once but TWICE!!!!

11 of their 12 balls were deflated on purpose. It has already been proved by experts that the weather couldn't deflat them! So patriot fans, why don't you stop making stupid excuses for your team and admit they're cheaters. Really Bill or Tom should be suspended for the Super Bowl but the NFL is sweeping this whole thing under the rug till after the big game. No way should a investigation take two weeks, they just want to punish you guys after the game.


I really hope the patriots don't win the super bowl because it would be a joke to the NFL and to all America sports. Not sure how anyone can view Bill or Tom as a role model because they're nothing but liars and cheaters.

[Runscott]

Lots of opinions being offered about how big and blatant a 2 psi difference is, etc, but wouldn't it be fun to do a blind psi test of footballs and see if people could actually easily identify a 11 psi ball, compared to a 12 or 13.

Ian, my comments as to whether or not 11 out of 12 balls could deflate that much naturally, weren't my own opinion.

There was an article in yesterday's Seattle Times where a woman who made 70 NFL balls a day for Wilson was interviewed. She worked there for 48 years. According to her, "When it leaves our factory, they may have trouble with a bladder every once in a while with losing some air, but when they have 11 out of 12 balls losing air, it's not Wilson's fault." The only way to remove that much air that quickly would be to put a needle in the valve and let the air seep out, said Kevin Murphy, who runs the American football division at Wilson. Wilson, he said, goes to great lengths to ensure the NFL balls do not leak, even in extreme heat or cold. Every ball has a special three-ply urethane bladder inside, and during production the balls are filled with 100 pounds of air pressure, then deflated to 13 pounds of pressure.

I think Brady stuck his foot in his mouth by repeatedly stating that he prefers 12.5, but that he can't tell the difference between 10.5 and 12.5. Perhaps the blind test you describe should be tried - you would think someone out there would have done that by now, just to draw attention to their blog.

[nolemmings]

Patriot-hating is not on most people's minds as much as the Pats fans would like to think. You love yourselves a lot more than others hate you.

Very well stated, and much more tactful than my comments (sorry Fred).

It's hard to believe that Troy Aikman, John Madden, Kurt Warner. et al. are all jealous of the Patriots' success or "hate" them for some reason when they state the quarterback had to know what was going on, and Mark Brunnell looked far more hurt than angry in saying he could not believe Tom Brady.

I'm still at a loss as to why they held those pressers at all. It is almost borderline hubris to think that they would put an end to the matter or even really slow the story's momentum, especially since Brady knew beforehand that his answers were going to be simple denial--denial that he had to believe his peers would find not credible, unless he truly thinks he is beyond public inquiry and potential scorn. A real head scratcher for me.

[GoldenAge50s]

Very well stated, and much more tactful than my comments (sorry Fred).

Not a problem Todd! I don't take internet chatter too personally no matter what is said, just wanted to put in my support for the Patriots regardless how others feel.

[Runscott]

Thanks Todd - tact is not normally my strong suit. Agreed on the reaction of ex-NFL qb's. Brunnell really did look hurt. I was also surprised at Aikman's response. As far as Brady's press conference attitude - if he is lying, then there is no other way to take it than that he feels he is beyond reproach. But look at ARod, McGwire, Braun, Lance Armstrong. All of these athletes seemingly should have known they would eventually be caught, and to us 'normal folks', honesty up-front was a no-brainer approach to the fix each was in. But do we have ANY examples of a pro athlete who has been truthful before the proof was shown? I can't think of s single one.

We discussed deflate-gate over pints at the pub last night and an old(er) geezer had the best comment: "some guy with the Pats carries a needle, pops it in and deflates the balls - how hard is that?" It made me wonder - how similar was the psi in the 11 balls? If pretty much exact it would lead you to believe that the equipment manager was a pro at this - pop in the needle for x seconds, move to the next one, etc. If not for Aikman and Brunnell's reactions, I would assume that it's so easy, and so beneficial to the teams, that more would be doing it.

[HRBAKER]

I think there's some truth in both sides of this. I think the vitriol is greater than it would be bc it involves the Patriots. The winning, the previous nefarity, the smug, arrogant, irascible Head Coach and the the pretty boy QB with the supermodel wife. It's the same dynamic that makes the arrows slung at Barry Bonds much greater than the ones at Mark McGwire - the smug/arrogant/a**holish behavior.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Fran Tarkenton phone interview...

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4005693672001/fran-tarkenton-tom-brady-controls-the-game-balls/?#sp=show-clips

[Ladder7]

This has been a hilarious and hideous week for all. People are just nutso -Admittedly, I'm no different.

To the Hatriots fans or those that think we all should abandon our team. I want to know who ordered the "code red" first. I know few do but, I choose to await the league's opinion/recommendation/sentence and not impune before the investigation is complete.

It's like trying to reason with a rabid Kim Jong il/un here. I'm tired of hearing "haters gonna hate" from our fans too. Everyone of us should want to know the specifics of what went down (pun intended).

One thing I do know, The cartoons and texts I've been getting are clever as Hell -from both camps. Just received another as I'm typing this -Hernandez loading a glock or something sick. Well, hope there's a decision soon. Until then, LGP!

(Now when the heck is baseball starting?)

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/the-internet-reacts-to-the-patriots-deflate-gate-scandal-15-photos-13.jpg?w=600&h=729



https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/the-internet-reacts-to-the-patriots-deflate-gate-scandal-15-photos-10.jpg?w=600&h=415

[yanks12025]

http://youtu.be/aHukC_yH7Ys


Watch this video.

[vintagetoppsguy]

To the Hatriots fans or those that think we all should abandon our team. I want to know who ordered the "code red" first.

Nobody thinks that you should abandon your team. Where are you coming up with this stuff? We just said that the Patriots were caught cheating and they need to be punished.

You sound really bitter. Are you like this in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

[Ladder7]

Nobody thinks that you should abandon your team. Where are you coming up with this stuff? We just said that the Patriots were caught cheating and they need to be punished.

You sound really bitter. Are you like this in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

Thanks for your concern. No, just disappointed in the close-minded... I'm sitting on a lounger beneath a palm tree, over looking the ocean. Waiting for paychecks to arrive. Bitter?.. Hardly.

Belichick just came on, talk later!

[Runscott]

Thanks for your concern. No, just disappointed in the close-minded... I'm sitting on a lounger beneath a palm tree, over looking the ocean. Waiting for paychecks to arrive. Bitter?.. Hardly.

Belichick just came on, talk later!

"close-minded?" Pull another palm leaf over your eyes.

[itjclarke]

Ian, my comments as to whether or not 11 out of 12 balls could deflate that much naturally, weren't my own opinion.

There was an article in yesterday's Seattle Times where a woman who made 70 NFL balls a day for Wilson was interviewed. She worked there for 48 years. According to her, "When it leaves our factory, they may have trouble with a bladder every once in a while with losing some air, but when they have 11 out of 12 balls losing air, it's not Wilson's fault." The only way to remove that much air that quickly would be to put a needle in the valve and let the air seep out, said Kevin Murphy, who runs the American football division at Wilson. Wilson, he said, goes to great lengths to ensure the NFL balls do not leak, even in extreme heat or cold. Every ball has a special three-ply urethane bladder inside, and during production the balls are filled with 100 pounds of air pressure, then deflated to 13 pounds of pressure.

I think Brady stuck his foot in his mouth by repeatedly stating that he prefers 12.5, but that he can't tell the difference between 10.5 and 12.5. Perhaps the blind test you describe should be tried - you would think someone out there would have done that by now, just to draw attention to their blog.

I in no way doubt someone let air out, and think it was most likely done per Brady's preference. I was just curious if people would be aware, to the touch, of the different pressures they're shouting about. Not even saying they wouldn't (though Huard quote was interesting), but could you pick an odd ball or two out of 24, or tell if all 12 were under inflated? I have always preferred a lightly under inflated ball, but have NO idea what psi they were ever inflated to. Footballs say- "inflate to 13 lbs", but never once have I seen a psi gauge on a ball pump, so I personally have little/no true point of reference. As an aside, if you want to feel a difference, hold some of the various college and HS that have been used over the years, on all other levels including major D-1. These ball variations have not set a tone of uniformity in football as a whole. The difference between the old Wilson 1001 and 1005 collegiate ball was crazy (it reminded me of the crazy -5, vs normal -3 metal bats used in college back then)... and Wilson is not the only game ball supplier.

I agree Brady's stated preference of 12.5 psi makes him look bad as he tries to deflect this... just as would Rodgers' known preference for highly inflated footballs if his were found to be over inflated. My guess would be Brady wants a little air let out in wet/cold weather. I still think this has been blown way way out of proportion, especially considering how all the custom ball prep (I'm sure often including softness or hardness based on inflation) has been a non issue, and has been "enforced" as such. As said, if the league wants to go the route of the "K" ball with game balls, and supply all game balls, then this sort of doctoring should be a big deal. Until then, I can't justify getting upset about something no one really cared about, or cared to enforce.

Oddly enough, my dad got me a college ball for my birthday years ago when I was in HS. I never even used it (was saving it until my old one was worn out) but within a year of so, the bladder had failed and it wouldn't hold air. I definitely don't think this is at all the case with the Pats, but know those things can go bad. Still have that ball stashed away.

[nolemmings]

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

[Ladder7]

"close-minded?" Pull another palm leaf over your eyes.

Runs, My apology. I was addressing the other fella. Unless you're together?

[Runscott]

Runs, My apology. I was addressing the other fella. Unless you're together?

Thanks for enlightening me on how discussion forums work. We are all allowed to respond to the OP, but not comment on anyone else's responses.

But to respond directly to you - yeah, it's a conspiracy, and we are all "together". You know - since we think the Patriots might be guilty - we are therefore Patriot haters.

[Runscott]

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Todd, you just hate the Patriots. I'm so disappointed.

[Ladder7]

Thanks for enlightening me on how discussion forums work. We are all allowed to respond to the OP, but not comment on anyone else's responses.

But to respond directly to you - yeah, it's a conspiracy, and we are all "together". You know - since we think the Patriots might be guilty - we are therefore Patriot haters.

"Might" be guilty. There's hope afoot! I hope the rest of the gallery are as enlightened. It sure was for me - the Belichick conference that is... Well, I've got to prepare for a Super Bowl. Play nice on your device now. Toodles ladies. And gentlemen

[Runscott]

"Might" be guilty. There's hope afoot! I hope the rest of the gallery are as enlightened. It sure was for me - the Belichick conference that is... Well, I've got to prepare for a Super Bowl. Play nice on your device now. Toodles ladies. And gentlemen

Enjoy the game. I ordered my official super bowl viewing shirt yesterday :)

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0259/2151/products/10.2.14_Shopify_Image_-_mens_crew_umadbro_navy_2.0_2_1024x1024.jpg?v=1421 364681http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0259/2151/products/09.11.14_RS25-Back_Of_Tee_Layout-Shopify-NavyTeeGreenInk_7cb7148e-0b05-48ae-a16c-43771a2e106e_1024x1024.jpg?v=1421364684

[itjclarke]

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Reinforces your earlier point, the response is worse than the crime.. And their response has been awkward to say the least. Saw bits of his presser today, I think saying they didn't have hands on balls from the time they were prepped/measured until game time. Like Scott said though, all you need is the needle to let air out.

Still, not at all upset with Pats if they did this, and deflate-gate is still stupid.

[pgellis]

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

[itjclarke]

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

If the league had cared at all about this rule in its history, they'd simply supply all game balls, that meet their required specs... They don't (nor does any level of football), and so teams/QBs/staff have been more or less allowed to this stuff forever, probably without really considering it's being "cheating" (should the base coach have a guilty conscience?). Going forward, I'm guessing this changes though, which I also think is lame because I'm 100% fine with QBs being given some leeway on the feel of the footballs they use. But I think with all the attention, this will become something that becomes more rigidly enforced. All other teams, be happy your team wasn't the one this blew up on.. Packer fans, be happy Rodgers didn't get caught with a 14 psi ball, simply because no one had ever cared to check... And Peyton Manning fans, be ready to see your QB launch even more ducky looking ducks.

[itjclarke]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of cheating. I think spygate was really bad, as was what the Saints did, but I also don't think that secretly filming practices or listening in on coordinators/visiting locker rooms was a generally accepted practice. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean that some rules violations are far less serious than others.

Love Pete Carroll- "it's serious for them" comment. My gut tells me inside he's probably thinking, who cares but better them than us.

[Runscott]

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

Base coaches aren't hiding - they are right there in the open and could be told to get back in their box. If you are saying that everyone knows that quarterbacks are having air let out of their balls, then I would agree with you, but the quarterbacks we have heard from so far are not saying that at all.

The best example I can think of is corked bats or spitballs. Tim Hudson still throws spitballs and I'm sure the league knows it and has decided to ignore it. But it's cheating. <== blatant product advertising as I own a documented Hudson spitball :)

[pgellis]

Ian, here's the big difference here.....do QBs alter game balls before the game? Yes. But once the game officials check them prior to kickoff, 99% of QBs and/or teams do not then go back to those balls and make them illegal again. That is what is being accused here.
Does Aaron Rodgers prefer over-inflated footballs? Supposedly, but he said he's disappointed when the officials take air out of them to make them legal. He doesn't then go back and mess with them again.

And this has not been going on forever. Before 2007, I believe, the home team supplied all the balls. Do you know who pleaded with the Competition Committee to change the rule to allow each team to supply their own footballs? You got it, Tom Brady.

Must have been cheating all along.

[steve B]

Interesting discussion.

Here's where I'm at on it.

I'd still like to know if the process used to check pre-game was simply handling the balls as the former ballboy from another team said. Or if decently accurate equipment was used.

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Do I think the team had someone deflate the balls in front of both teams, the press, officials, and anyone else in the stadium? Not really. Do I think the Pats might have inflated them in a hot environment knowing they'd be under by gametime? Yeah, that I can see happening.

And that IS a bit shady. But also within the current rules as they're written.

I think Scott was pretty accurate in his earlier reply to me. We'll have to wait for the NFL to figure out what went on. I think the team will be found to have done something and will probably be heavily fined even if what was done violates the spirit of the rule but didn't actually violate it as written.

I also think the rules will be changed in the offseason. Maybe each team will provide half the balls scuffed and the refs will do the inflating and someone will exercise tighter control over them. Maybe the league will provide the balls so everyone will be using the same ball. And specifying a temperature range should be part of the rule.
I forget if I mentioned it here or in the other thread, but at the very least they'll probably put tamper evident seals over the valve.

Or we can all join PG and get out the torches and pitchforks before we really know what happened. Unless somehow he does actually know what happened. With such omniscience I'd head to Vegas instead of hanging out here. A few hours and I'd have a lot more card money :D

Steve B

[rats60]

Interesting discussion.

Here's where I'm at on it.

I'd still like to know if the process used to check pre-game was simply handling the balls as the former ballboy from another team said. Or if decently accurate equipment was used.

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Do I think the team had someone deflate the balls in front of both teams, the press, officials, and anyone else in the stadium? Not really. Do I think the Pats might have inflated them in a hot environment knowing they'd be under by gametime? Yeah, that I can see happening.

And that IS a bit shady. But also within the current rules as they're written.

I think Scott was pretty accurate in his earlier reply to me. We'll have to wait for the NFL to figure out what went on. I think the team will be found to have done something and will probably be heavily fined even if what was done violates the spirit of the rule but didn't actually violate it as written.

I also think the rules will be changed in the offseason. Maybe each team will provide half the balls scuffed and the refs will do the inflating and someone will exercise tighter control over them. Maybe the league will provide the balls so everyone will be using the same ball. And specifying a temperature range should be part of the rule.
I forget if I mentioned it here or in the other thread, but at the very least they'll probably put tamper evident seals over the valve.

Or we can all join PG and get out the torches and pitchforks before we really know what happened. Unless somehow he does actually know what happened. With such omniscience I'd head to Vegas instead of hanging out here. A few hours and I'd have a lot more card money :D

Steve B

I think we'd all like whatever you are smoking.

[itjclarke]

Phil- I expect most/all QBs would object to anything the league does or did to limit their ability to mess around with balls, and though Tom Brady may have lead this previous charge, I doubt he's an exception. I do feel like the league, being super reactive these days, is gauging how to act based on the media response. If this doesn't blow over, during the off season I expect them to change the way game balls are handled, and in turn expect QBs to object (however objecting in a way that won't make it look like they over doctor their game balls).

I think it's also unfair to make the conclusions about what Brady "did" and what Rodgers "does not do". I earlier said I think Brady probably did something, but did so knowing no one really cares... I'm actually now starting to consider things in line with what Steve B said. The Ball is inflated at 70+ degrees, then spends 2 hours outside at 40, it will lose some pressure. Brady likes the ball at 12.5, while Luck apparently likes it at 13.5.. so if Brady's ball deflates at all, he's technically in violation of the rule, while Luck has a 1 psi cushion. I hear the claims the Pats balls were 2 psi low were also not confirmed, but media types are reporting it as fact (love modern journalistic integrity). I also just heard there are ways to treat a ball prior to the game that will create higher pressures for a short period (while being measured), but will then drop later. If truly possible, would doing this be a rules violation, or is it just getting as close to the edge as possible? Doubt there's anything in the rules that cover this.. and it seems just about everything in the NFL will take things as close to the edge as possible- see Seahawks DB play, or any D lineman line up as close to offside as possible.

Scott- I take what a lot of people (QBs, coaches, talking heads) may or may not be saying with a grain of salt. Seeing how this has blown up, no one wants to be seen on the bad side of it... and a lot of media types may just be instigating for self serving purposes. If this was truly big deal to the league/refs/rules (before the press blew this story up), why did the refs simply fill the balls back up and play the 2nd half??? Apparently, they didn't contact anyone, league, coaches, about the under inflated balls, they just filled them back up, why? Because no one cared about this rule... but media types got hold of it and made it a big deal. I think most anyone who played the pro game, off record and without being influenced by this current story, would not think this was a really big deal.

Some media outlet, or the league, or the Pats need to take some footballs inflated to 12.5 psi, put them in a fridge for 2 hours+, then measure drop in pressure. I would love if there was a noticeable drop, or if there is any other simple/logical explanation and then maybe everyone would just shut up!!!:cool: Regardless, of ball psi, I'd be nearly certain to say Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger wearing sticky gloves on their throwing hands has a far greater effect on grip than air pressure (as would major college teams using totally different balls).

I'll never be convinced this is a real big deal... but the media has definitely made it a perceived big deal.

ADDING: just read a little Peter King snippet saying a 1-2 psi difference was just about imperceptible, and even at 10 psi the football still felt hard (makes me wonder what psi on those semi soft game balls we used in HS was??) Admittedly I'm annoyed at myself for getting sucked in, and don't like Peter King, but glad he wrote this... and think if tested, the loudest of media blowhards would probably fail miserably trying to identify the under inflated balls in a batch of good ones.

[itjclarke]

I think we'd all like whatever you are smoking.

I think he was smoking some solid logic

[vintagetoppsguy]

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Inflated in a sauna? :rolleyes:

Ok, I'll bite. Let's say they were inflated in a sauna. Why wouldn't the ball boy (or whoever inflated them) just come out and say so? As you state, it would probably be within the rules, so why wouldn't they just fess up instead of having all this doubt and suspicion cast on Tom Brady?

Your Patriots are cheaters. Pull your head out of the sand and just admit it. They will be fined and lose a first round draft pick at a minimum, but I hope it's a lot more harsh than that.

[vintagetoppsguy]

solid logic

The sauna theory is 'solid logic'?

If the balls were in the sauna only for a short amount of time (just the time it would have taken to inflate them), then that's not long enough for the hot temperature to really effect the PSI. If they were in the sauna for an extended amount of time, they would be wet from the steam and the refs would have questioned a wet football (a wet football doesn't dry out quickly).

You Cheatriots fans are really grasping for straws at this point. I don't blame you though. I'm sure it's a hard fact to swallow that the team you grew up loving to root for has to cheat to get a competitive advantage.

[itjclarke]

The sauna theory is 'solid logic'?

If the balls were in the sauna only for a short amount of time (just the time it would have taken to inflate them), then that's not long enough for the hot temperature to really effect the PSI. If they were in the sauna for an extended amount of time, they would be wet from the steam and the refs would have questioned a wet football (a wet football doesn't dry out quickly).

You Cheatriots fans are really grasping for straws at this point. I don't blame you though. I'm sure it's a hard fact to swallow that the team you grew up loving to root for has to cheat to get a competitive advantage.

I'm not a Pats fan and definitely didn't grow up loving and rooting for them, when I had a multiple SB championship team in my own backyard. I also do not think the "sauna" example was to be taken literally. However let's say for example you could fill a ball with heated air. Seems this could increase/inflate air pressure until the air cooled and would guess it's not be specifically against the rules. In today's presser, Bellichek said the players do something during the prep process which increases pressure by about 1 psi, which is at 12.5 when given to the refs. Whether this is due to heat generated through rubbing, scraping... I've even heard rumor hitting it with a hammer will increase pressure, I guess assuming the flexing bladder will generate heat... if true, could possibly explain why the ball's air pressure was lower by half time on a cold day. I doubt any of this is specifically against the rules.

If the refs did their job, they checked the balls out at 12.5 psi, and the Pats didn't get the balls back until reaching the field. If they let air out after that point, though easy to do, I'd expect a camera to have caught it. We'll see, but my guess is there will be no conclusive video evidence. My first reaction was to assume the Pats did something. I just didn't care because I think the league/refs don't truly care, as they allow teams to work their game balls (refs just topped the balls off at half, didn't do anything otherwise!). After digging into it a little deeper, I am now in the camp that thinks maybe the Pats really didn't do anything specifically to take air out. I hope that is the case and I hope this story just dies out. It's overblown, overplayed, tired, and reeks of a witch hunt. Though it seems it would disappoint a lot of people if the Pats don't get theirs. That said, if they do get busted, I won't lose any sleep over it... and I still consider Tom Brady one of the greatest (maybe top) QBs ever.

[rats60]

I think he was smoking some solid logic

Take off your tin foil hat.

At least there's a bit of reality in your post . THE NFL Has Caught THE Patriots cheating again and they have leaked the story to gauge public reaction before they decide what to do. They don't want another Ray Rice black eye where they try to sweep this under the rug.

The nfl already did that once during Spygate where they destroyed the evidence without making it public. The bottom line is that the Patriots season will be tainted because of this and Brady and Belichick's legacy will be that of cheating.

Your conspiracy theory is ridiculous. It doesn't account for the one Pat ball and 12 Colts balls that were not underinflated. How can the Pats have 11 balls be 2 psi under and the other 13 balls not? How can this have never been an issue in below zero games, but is in a 50 degree game? All the junk science can't explain this away. The laws of science apply uniformly. The Pats don't have magic balls that perform differently than the other 31 nfl teams.

[steve B]

Nothing, now get back to class before you flunk out.:D

[Runscott]

Scott- I take what a lot of people (QBs, coaches, talking heads) may or may not be saying with a grain of salt. Seeing how this has blown up, no one wants to be seen on the bad side of it... and a lot of media types may just be instigating for self serving purposes. If this was truly big deal to the league/refs/rules (before the press blew this story up), why did the refs simply fill the balls back up and play the 2nd half??? Apparently, they didn't contact anyone, league, coaches, about the under inflated balls, they just filled them back up, why? Because no one cared about this rule...

I agree with all of this except the QBs' reaction. Not even one ex-QB tried using 'Steve B' logic. The talk shows LOVE having opposing views from their talking heads, yet when given the opportunity, the quarterbacks didn't once take Brady's side.

Also, I was believing Brady during his press conference when he kept saying that he couldn't tell the difference during the game - that he never gave it a second thought. He should also have said that yes, he asks for 12.5, but no, he doubts he could really tell the difference, that it should be intuitive to anyone that lower pressure balls 'should' be easier to throw, so he goes for the bottom. Why the heck didn't he just say something like that?

[freakhappy]

I'll never be convinced this is a real big deal... but the media has definitely made it a perceived big deal.

Bingo!

I don't love or hate either team, but this ball deflating incident is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. I get that it's breaking the rules...so fine them, take a draft pick away and move on...it's that easy. I don't care if Belichick or Brady had anything to do with it or not, the Pats broke the rules one way or another, so lay the hammer down and get it over with.

Even if it's a form or cheating, it's not very relevant and the guys here that are chomping at the bit to have the Patriot's heads are sad. It would be different if the haters plainly stated their case and took a side, but it just seems weak to call them names and such.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Even if it's a form or cheating, it's not very relevant...

That was pretty much your same sentiment about shilling in the Probstein thread. For some of us, any form of cheating is very relevant. But if it makes you feel better to justify it, so be it.

If people want to justify bad behavior, so be it. It kinda reminds me of the Probstein (shilling) thread.

[freakhappy]

That was pretty much your same sentiment about shilling in the Probstein thread. For some of us, any form of cheating is very relevant. But if it makes you feel better to justify it, so be it.


Not the same at all, but if you want to use it that way, knock yourself out.

So every sin is the same and should be treated the same? No difference?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vintagetoppsguy]

So every sin is the same and should be treated the same? No difference?

In severity? No. In consequence? Yes.

Romans 6:23

Really want to continue this coversation?

[freakhappy]

In severity? No. In consequence? Yes.



Romans 6:23



Really want to continue this coversation?


No, because you are obviously going off the deep end on the matter.

Reread my original post...punish and move on...as should you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

Reread my original post...punish and move on...as should you

Sounds good, but you can't - that would require Belichek or Brady to admit they did something wrong, and they aren't doing that. So the media circus, or whatever you want to call it, is going to continue. Then when (or if) they are caught in a lie, regardless of how trivial this entire thing should be viewed (in your opinion), it's going to be an even bigger deal than if they had told the truth.

But maybe you all are right and we'll eventually find out that it was mother nature picking on the Patriot balls.

[freakhappy]

I'm sure this is getting blown up because it's the patriots and I get that....they've messed up before and it should be a bigger deal. My biggest issue is the haters that post their hatred...it's like they've been waiting for something to happen so they can excitedly jump out of their seats and point a finger at them. Believe me, they're getting punished and I can't see it being a light punishment. Robert Kraft should be embarrassed and hopefully this will be the last cheating scandal we hear from the pats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

I'm sure this is getting blown up because it's the patriots and I get that....they've messed up before and it should be a bigger deal. My biggest issue is the haters that post their hatred...it's like they've been waiting for something to happen so they can excitedly jump out of their seats and point a finger at them. Believe me, they're getting punished and I can't see it being a light punishment. Robert Kraft should be embarrassed and hopefully this will be the last cheating scandal we hear from the pats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This "hater" stuff sounds like crying. As I said before, you guys love yourselves a lot more than others hate you - I don't see the Patriots as important or special at all. If you didn't get caught cheating so often, no one would notice you any more than any other good team.

[rats60]

This "hater" stuff sounds like crying. As I said before, you guys love yourselves a lot more than others hate you - I don't see the Patriots as important or special at all. If you didn't get caught cheating so often, no one would notice you any more than any other good team.

This. The Patriots ruined the legacy of their early 2000s teams with Spygate. Most of us had moved on. If it wasn't for Pats fans constantly trying to minimize Spygate, this issue would have died. Now the Pats are caught cheating again. It leaves us to wonder what other rules they have been breaking for the last 15 years?

This should have been the team to redeem Belichick and Brady. However, they have shown that they can't keep their noses clean. They will forever be associated with cheating alone.

Other teams have been as successful or more so. 60s Pack, 70s Steelers, 80s 49ers and 90's Cowboys. None of those teams received the negative reaction of the Pats. It's the cheating, not the winning. The Pats success is nothing we haven't seen before. It is the utter disregard for fair play.

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[itjclarke]

Your conspiracy theory is ridiculous

It's not my "conspiracy theory", just some things I've heard which I felt deserved as much consideration as the assertions being made by the lynch mob here. I think it's ridiculous for people to form conclusions without really knowing any of the facts.

How can the Pats have 11 balls be 2 psi under

11 balls being 2 psi low is not confirmed! It came from an unidentified source and was reported by Craig Mortensen. Call me crazy, but I don't consider ESPN to be a beacon of integrity, or reporting accuracy. Back in 2007, while my wife was working for a firm that was privy to the Mitchell report, grand jury testimony, info from interviews they'd conducted, etc., an ESPN reporter was offering six figures to anyone who'd leak the player lists to him. A lot of these guys are total weasels, yet it seems the public is happy to take cues from them on how to judge others' integrity.

How can this have never been an issue in below zero games
Because nobody cared! Refs, players, fans NOBODY CARED!!! Do you think they really measure and keep measuring to make sure it's between 12.5-13.5?? I'd guess balls in sub zero games are probably often outside the stated league limits, especially if a QB wants his at 12.5 to start with (:eek:OMG, you mean rules are being broken, rules are being broken!!:eek: eject, eject!!:eek:).

I highly doubt most, if any of those shouting loudest could tell a 1-2 psi difference by holding a football. I also doubt most were aware of any of these rules (I wasn't because they never come up), and not aware of the freedom and flexibility football players (and their coaches) have had from age 8 all the way up to the NFL in choosing prepping their game balls and other equipment. Yet people are jumping up and down, going nuts about this story like Tom Brady killed someone, or punched his wife, or beat his kid?? I'll say for the upteenth time, balls used up until the NFL are not uniform and vary based on manufacturer and style. This is what QBs have been used to their whole lives, and to an extent this continues in the NFL, and it's been accepted for years. I can't cut a guys head off if he's always been allowed to do whatever he's done.

Take cleats for example. 0.5" is the max length at amateur levels, yet I know we'd all used 0.75" when it was raining and muddy. I know our opponents did so as well. The refs never checked and I don't think anyone felt they were cheating, because either side could do it, and the refs didn't care to enforce it. For argument sake, what if news breaks tomorrow that Ezekiel Elliot and Ohio State used 0.75" cleats in the Championship game. Maybe the ambitious reporter "breaking" this story goes out of his way to claim it gave them an unfair footing advantage. Let's then say the public, most of whom don't know players often use 0.75" cleats, jump on the Twitter bandwagon and start yelling "cheater! cheater!". I mean, Ohio State and separately Urban Meyer have had some pretty sketchy moments in their past, so they must be breaking rules, right?!?! Oregon, and other teams' players don't come out to admit they used longer cleats too, because they don't want to also be accused of cheating.. and so on.

Scott- it does surprise me a bit if truly no other QBs are coming out defending Brady. This said, I guess most just don't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. They all saw how quickly he's been judged, so why risk the same scrutiny? I also think pro athletes are not immune to jealousy (see Terry Bradshaw late '80's when Montana was breaking his SB records, see Dolphins popping champagne when undefeated teams lose, see MLB players always voting Jeter most overrated player), and so some are probably just taking satisfaction seeing Brady squirm.

I don't find other QBs'/Teams' silence to be damning, nor do I consider the Pats team history to be damning either. Granted, Spygate was really bad, and IMO the Pats probably deserved harsher punishment (coach suspension like Payton got).. and sure, Spygate can influence your thinking, but to make the assertion- "they did that so they must have done this, and their legacy is all fake" is a stretch. The Pats are not unique in their desire to gain any edge possible. I think most NFL head coaches, chief execs possess traits that may be off-putting in the normal world (control freaks, selfish, neglectful of family/friends, etc) yet are essential to survice in the NFL. My beloved Niners, who were mentioned as being one of the great teams that didn't generate controversy like the Pats, have done their fair share of shady stuff. Eddie D, loved for his willingness to do anything for his players, was suspected to have paid players under the table shortly after the league instituted the salary cap. Seems that would be an unfair advantage to me. He was also accused of using dead people as voters while trying to pass a new stadium/mall at Candlestick Point, and eventually run from the league for involvement in a river boat casino/gambling license scandal.

Most the teams we root for have baggage. Anyone a college football fan here???? Maybe Auburn? Auburn who's alums arranged for Cecil Newton to go aboard river casinos, play machines at precise times and walk out with bags of cash? Auburn and Cam still have their trophies, and the school and SEC conference profited greatly, so I guess it's all OK, eh? The NO Saints were paying players to "attack the head" of Frank Gore and Alex Smith. Yet, the Pats have some under inflated footballs, and this is what people are clinging onto? Craziness IMO

As Mike C says, if they find evidence they're guilty of an infraction, punish them and move on. But in the grand scheme of things... and of football related violations on the whole.. this one is not that big a deal.

[itjclarke]

Wow, I've been busy writing my own novel, so didn't see yours until after.


"But what has the NFL really found? As one league source has explained it to PFT, the football intercepted by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson was roughly two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum. The other 10 balls that reportedly were two pounds under may have been, as the source explained it, closer to one pound below 12.5 PSI."
Read that same column... my guess is no one will ever know what the other balls were because the refs don't really give a crap, and probably just topped them back up to spec. I doubt they take time to log the pressures.


So looks like Chris Mortensen's report may be wrong, just like the report about Jackson being one who noticed the ball was deflated. Sports journalism in this country is at an all-time low.
EXACTLY!! But he sure as hell did a good job creating a story and driving ratings for the foreseeable future, so am sure he'll be commended.


Funny how you mention teams that were successful and "None of those teams received the negative reaction of the Pats. It's the cheating, not the winning." Let's see here:

70's Steelers - Rampant steroid use

Broncos - Circumventing the salary cap during the late Elway years when they won 2 SBs; taping part of a 49ers walk-through practice in London in 2010

Late 90's 49ers - Circumventing the salary cap

90's Cowboys - Jimmy Johnson has admitted that videotaping coaches' signals was common practice and something he did although he felt it didn't help him at all.

Steelers - Cowher: “Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game and everybody attempted to do that. We had people that always tried to steal signals,” said Cowher, whose 2004 team won 16 consecutive games before losing to the Patriots in the AFC title game. “What happened when we lost that game is they outplayed us. It had nothing to do with stealing signals or cheating or anything else.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/4294/cowher-dismisses-impact-of-spygate

I could list many more things, but I think that'll do.


Yes, yes, and yes.. all examples of things teams are willing to do. I'm the first to admit the Niners did some dirty stuff.. and separately, a whole hell of a lot of coke. Fans get such a small portal into the real world of pro football, so when they get little bits and pieces (often without full context) here and there, it looks terrible. However, most involved are pulling similar tricks. Re- Spygate, I had more issue because they were filming walk throughs/practices that were supposed to be closed, right? That said, I never thought they were the only ones doing this. I had also singled the Saints out for their Bountygate.. but bounties have been around forever, and am sure many teams and coaches have done this.

Bounties to hurt players are probably a little more serious than deflated balls... or is it just me that feels this way?

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[itjclarke]

That was NEVER proven to be true. A huge misconception by people out there.

Fine with me, I'll take your word for it. I didn't follow it really closely at the time, which is precisely the issue I take with irresponsible reporting. Most people don't follow closely, so once something blows up like this, it's irreversible in the court of public opinion. This is beyond wrong. I wish there was a way to hold these reporters and networks more accountable.

I think reputable news agencies are probably generally better at fact checking, etc, but ESPN, and maybe some other networks I won't mention for fear of a firestorm, seem intent only on breaking stories first, then inflating importance of their stories ("the Decision", "---- gate", etc) and in turn increasing web hits, ratings.

[itjclarke]

Edit: I'll add that if you want to call the Patriots cheaters, fine. They did violate the rules once. Just be consistent and label every team that has ever violated rules cheaters too. That's all I ask. Teams have done far worse things than film something that's out in the wide open for anyone in the stadium to see.

You're preaching to the choir. I outed my own team (Niners) in my post.

[Runscott]

So often? Please tell me what you're referring to besides the Spygate issue.


You conveniently skipped the main point of my response, which is that nobody "hates' the Patriots - No one outside of Boston gives a shlt about them any more than any other team. We are discussing a current 'issue' - that's all. You are making it out as if discussing and giving opinions is not allowed until after the investigation. You're forgetting that you are participating in a DISCUSSION FORUM.

[freakhappy]

We should start a "sour grapes" thread and let everyone that has true hatred (looking at you Phil) for a team or individual player(s), rip them through and through. Maybe it would make them feel better? Maybe their hatred would expire? Doubtful, but at least their partial thoughts could be outed in a thread that would welcome it.

Well, I think it was David that was looking for the "Patriot apologists" and it seems he got more than that :eek:

[itjclarke]

Mike, I agree that there do seem to be a lot of sour grapes toward these guys, and I think "haters" has been aptly used here. I don't have much invested in this here.. but think a lot of people (well beyond this board) want to see them fail by any/all means, and they smell blood in the water in right now.

Scott, would be nice if this were totally objective, though I don't think it's necessary for something as trivial as sports discussion, and I don't think it has been here. The vehement (not yours) reads loud and clear to me, and I think plenty of people outside Boston feel some passion toward the Pats (mostly bad). This is similar to what people felt about the Yanks, the Bulls, the Lakers, the Niners, etc.. and if your Hawks win another, will be more commonly felt toward them. Seems pretty natural in sports.

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[rats60]

So often? Please tell me what you're referring to besides the Spygate issue.


They were filming something out in the wide open for anyone to see. Every person in the stadium could see those signals being given by the coach. The severe penalty wasn't because of the infraction itself. It was because they continued to do it after a memo went out to all teams by the league in 2006 telling them to stop filming coaches' signals. They were wrong for that and were punished accordingly. They won those SBs because they had dominant defenses, a HOF coach, and a HOF QB. You can't get a competitive advantage when other teams are doing what you're doing but just in a slightly less convenient way (have a scout in the stands or press box taking notes with pen and paper of the coaches' signals, which once again, are available to anyone in the stadium). There's a reason why the league passed a rule that allowed defensive players to have audio communication with their coaches via their helmets. Stealing signals was part of the game (and probably still is to a degree to this day), as has been acknowledged by many NFL coaches (see below for a couple examples).

Funny how you mention teams that were successful and "None of those teams received the negative reaction of the Pats. It's the cheating, not the winning." Let's see here:

70's Steelers - Rampant steroid use

Broncos - Circumventing the salary cap during the late Elway years when they won 2 SBs; taping part of a 49ers walk-through practice in London in 2010

Late 90's 49ers - Circumventing the salary cap

90's Cowboys - Jimmy Johnson has admitted that videotaping coaches' signals was common practice and something he did although he felt it didn't help him at all.

2006 Colts - pumping artificial crowd noise into the stadium when the Patriots were on offense during the 2006 AFC Championship game

Steelers - Cowher: “Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game and everybody attempted to do that. We had people that always tried to steal signals,” said Cowher, whose 2004 team won 16 consecutive games before losing to the Patriots in the AFC title game. “What happened when we lost that game is they outplayed us. It had nothing to do with stealing signals or cheating or anything else.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/4294/cowher-dismisses-impact-of-spygate

I could list many more things, but I think that'll do.


Oh, and then there's this re: "DeflateGate" from Mike Florio today:

"But what has the NFL really found? As one league source has explained it to PFT, the football intercepted by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson was roughly two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum. The other 10 balls that reportedly were two pounds under may have been, as the source explained it, closer to one pound below 12.5 PSI."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/

So looks like Chris Mortensen's report may be wrong, just like the report about Jackson being one who noticed the ball was deflated. Sports journalism in this country is at an all-time low. If they were indeed closer to 1 PSI below the 12.5 minimum requirement, Belichick's explanation he gave yesterday is certainly plausible. If it's proven they intentionally deflated the footballs, then they should be punished accordingly.

But hey, great job jumping to conclusions before having all of the facts by all of the ignorant people here. Bravo.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, delusional Patriots fan. You really don't understand the difference between watching signs and being able to film them, having a permanent record which you can used to figure out all their defenses? You can claim that it was dominant defense, but when you know what the other team is doing it is a huge advantage, it is cheating and is a major reason why the Pats won those 3 SBs. Fact, the Pats are the only SB champion to be sanctioned for cheating. You can try to justify it all you want, but the Pats are cheaters. They were cheating 2001-07 and they are still cheating today.

You complain about us discussing what the nfl has leaked. We can still discuss this and change our opinion if new info comes out. However, your mind is already closed. No matter what the nfl decides, you are going to try to argue away the fact that the Pats are cheaters. 7 years later you are still trying to argue away Spygate

[steve B]

The sauna theory is 'solid logic'?

If the balls were in the sauna only for a short amount of time (just the time it would have taken to inflate them), then that's not long enough for the hot temperature to really effect the PSI. If they were in the sauna for an extended amount of time, they would be wet from the steam and the refs would have questioned a wet football (a wet football doesn't dry out quickly).

You Cheatriots fans are really grasping for straws at this point. I don't blame you though. I'm sure it's a hard fact to swallow that the team you grew up loving to root for has to cheat to get a competitive advantage.

No, not enough time to affect the ball, but the air that gets added would be hot. And cooling would put them around 2 psi lower.

I didn't say I knew that was done, just that an actual scientist had suggested it and it seemed for sure like a loophole the Pats would use if they thought it would give them an edge.

I do think that while the rule would technically allow it, by the spirit of the rule it's quite shady. And I also think there will be fines, maybe a draft pick loss no matter what the NFL finds.

The NFL is one of the oddest businesses I've seen.
Grab your stuff on field? That's a $20K fine.
Sell a framed photo collection prominently including the same crotch grab? Totally ok !

Harass your own teammate so he leaves the team and nearly quits altogether? And have management know all about it? One guy gets suspended for the rest of the year. Nothing for the others or for management.

Film from the wrong spot? That's a half million and a draft pick.

Simply bizarre.

Steve B

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[DeanH3]

Interesting article. I hope it's OK for me to post a link. Sorry if it's not OK to do.

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2015/01/ballghazi_the_new_england_patriots_lose_an_insanel y_low_number_of_fumbles.html

[Runscott]

I would add 'paranoid' and 'entitled' to "delusional patriots fans."

[freakhappy]

I would add 'paranoid' and 'entitled' to "delusional patriots fans."

Come on, Scott...have you not read this thread lately? I'm not a Patriots fan, but the few on here have added some good info...you should read it instead of popping in and stirring the pot.

[rats60]

Other teams weren't simply "watching" signals. They were stealing them, too. Have a scout in the stands or press box taking notes of the coaches' signals and then later syncing them with the game tape to decipher the signals. The Patriots did it in a more convenient way. With the memo going out to ALL teams in 2006, it's very possible that other teams were doing what the Patriots were doing before 2006.

Major reason they won those SBs? Lol, yeah, they have the highest win % in the NFL since then and have been to 3 SBs. Yeah, was a huge game changer.

"Fact, the Pats are the only SB champion to be sanctioned for cheating." Once again, wrong. Broncos in the late 90s when they won 2 SBs - circumvented the salary cap. They deferred $29 million to Terrell Davis and John Elway. The Broncos were fined $968,000 and were stripped of a 3rd round pick in 2002. And then were fined $950,000 and stripped of another 3rd round draft pick in the 2005 draft.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2008/10/01/davis-was-referring-to-broncos-cap-violations/

Funny how you never hear about that.

The difference is what other teams were doing was allowed by the rules. That wasn't good enough for the Pats, they had to break the rules. It gave them an unfair advantage. If it wasn't a major reason they won 3 SBs, how come they have won ZERO since then?

It wasn't like they were blowing teams out, it was 3 close wins, two on last second fgs, Since then, they are losing those close games (to the Giants). I'd say having the other team's signals was a major reason they won.

You can turn a blind eye to the Pats cheating. Just don't expect the rest of us to ignore it.

[Runscott]

Come on, Scott...have you not read this thread lately? I'm not a Patriots fan, but the few on here have added some good info...you should read it instead of popping in and stirring the pot.

Look in the mirror and then say that again without blushing.

[steve B]

The difference is what other teams were doing was allowed by the rules. That wasn't good enough for the Pats, they had to break the rules. It gave them an unfair advantage. If it wasn't a major reason they won 3 SBs, how come they have won ZERO since then?

It wasn't like they were blowing teams out, it was 3 close wins, two on last second fgs, Since then, they are losing those close games (to the Giants). I'd say having the other team's signals was a major reason they won.

You can turn a blind eye to the Pats cheating. Just don't expect the rest of us to ignore it.

Taping the practices and signals was and I believe is standard practice. That there's a rule stating where this taping can be done pretty much confirms that. Prior to the pats taping from the wrong place the Jets had someone taping from the wrong place and the Pats didn't go to the league, just asked him to leave.

Frankly, if taping practices and signals is as common as it is, and a head coach is too dumb to change those signals the team is probably going to have some problems anyway.


Hey, I get it.
The Pats used to be truly horrible in just about every way.
A coach whose main highlight was getting electrocuted during his introductory press conference.
Players harassing a female member of the press.
And generally just being a bad football team.

And as sports fans do, I looked anywhere else for the reason. The refs were against us, the rules were unfair, anything except the organization was just bad from the top down. Sure, they had some good players. Plunkett was pretty good, and was better after he left. Hmmmmm .......must be something odd going on there.....(Like the Raiders having a clue)


I'm looking forward to the superbowl, and the matchup between the most successful Pats head coach and the second most successful Pats head coach.

You mad bro? :D

Steve B

[pgellis]

Breaking news from Jay Glazer:

http://m.tmi.me/1eXHpm

[gregr2]

Breaking news from Jay Glazer:

http://m.tmi.me/1eXHpm

This is what I thought would happen from the beginning. Some no name, low level employee would get blamed and fired for this. The Patriots (Tom Brady) will of course claim that they never ever ever ever ever ever told him to reduce the air pressure in the balls, he just did it on his own.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The Patriots (Tom Brady) will of course claim that they never ever ever ever ever ever told him to reduce the air pressure in the balls, he just did it on his own.

Of course :D

[itjclarke]

Maybe it's time to start a parallel Scooter Libby thread to lend some perspective.

Like Mike said, there's been some good stuff said, examples given, but seems the posse doesn't seem interested. What my Niners allegedly did by paying players under the table would be far far more severe than playing with lower pressure game balls. What any number of teams, that for whatever reason never had to face this type of scrutiny is more severe than deflated game balls.

Dean- re fumbles, I've seen reference to those stats. It's interesting, and I'd be curious to check out individual player stats to see how their fumble rates increased or decreased in NE (but trying to get work done!!). I did do a quick scan of Legarrette Blount's stats, and looked like he fumbled at a similar rate in NE as TB. I do think strong coaching emphasis on protecting the ball (look at Tiki Barber's career) and quickly benching fumble prone players can go a long way toward better offensive turnover numbers. I also consider a lot of other things as the truest factors in not fumbling-- being strong especially hand strength, protecting the ball (4 points of contact), being able to safely transfer ball hands, covering up with 2 hands when needed, wearing sticky gloves, etc. Just like some teams were ahead of the curve teaching stripping techniques (relatively recently, especially in secondary), I'd guess the Pats position coaches may be very good at teaching ball security techniques. Just checked, they did not lead the league in fewest fumbles this year, and were tied with 3 other teams for 2nd.

I vow I am not a Pats fan (and not blushing) and I was very happy when the Niners beat them in NE on MNF last season. This whole debacle has definitely given me a stronger rooting interest in the SB though.

[Runscott]

This is what I thought would happen from the beginning. Some no name, low level employee would get blamed and fired for this. The Patriots (Tom Brady) will of course claim that they never ever ever ever ever ever told him to reduce the air pressure in the balls, he just did it on his own.

Agreed. I once took the fall for a multi-million dollar deal that failed, even though I had nothing to do with it - but I was a paramecium and even the people on the other side of the deal understood what was happening. I even had management explain the situation to me beforehand, and we all agreed (me included) that it was best that we put my name on it as opposed to blaming the guilty and losing the deal.

I got a raise and a promotion for doing so. This is all part of business 101. The equipment manager will get a lobster dinner and a huge pile of cash. The Pats are grateful, but the behavior on all sides was expected. Even the NFL will be happy with such an outcome - it was the only way this could end, so I don't doubt it in the least.

[freakhappy]

Look in the mirror and then say that again without blushing.


Scott...I'm a man, I don't blush


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

I echo Ian in that this has been a great discussion, with only minor flaming :)

I hope it all is swept under the rug prior to Superbowl Sunday, then the Patriots and the NFL can bring in 'The Wolf' after a week or so.

[Runscott]

Scott...I'm a man, I don't blush


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mike - I am proud of you that you are keeping tabs on this via your cell phone. It means you have a life. Me, on the other hand...

[freakhappy]

Mike - I am proud of you that you are keeping tabs on this via your cell phone. It means you have a life. Me, on the other hand...


Lol...damnit, Scott. You're trying your hardest to get to me, but it will not work!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rats60]

Taping the practices and signals was and I believe is standard practice. That there's a rule stating where this taping can be done pretty much confirms that. Prior to the pats taping from the wrong place the Jets had someone taping from the wrong place and the Pats didn't go to the league, just asked him to leave.

Frankly, if taping practices and signals is as common as it is, and a head coach is too dumb to change those signals the team is probably going to have some problems anyway.


Hey, I get it.
The Pats used to be truly horrible in just about every way.
A coach whose main highlight was getting electrocuted during his introductory press conference.
Players harassing a female member of the press.
And generally just being a bad football team.

And as sports fans do, I looked anywhere else for the reason. The refs were against us, the rules were unfair, anything except the organization was just bad from the top down. Sure, they had some good players. Plunkett was pretty good, and was better after he left. Hmmmmm .......must be something odd going on there.....(Like the Raiders having a clue)


I'm looking forward to the superbowl, and the matchup between the most successful Pats head coach and the second most successful Pats head coach.

You mad bro? :D

Steve B
This makes no sense. The only one mad is Tom Brady for losing to the Seahawks and then running away like a little girl instead of shaking Richard Sherman's hand.

[itjclarke]

This makes no sense. The only one mad is Tom Brady for losing to the Seahawks and then running away like a little girl instead of shaking Richard Sherman's hand.

I guarantee, nothing would make a player look like a bigger chump than would accepting Richard Sherman's mock conciliatory hand shakes. Ask Michael Crabtree last year. I think in both cases those guys did well to just walk away, rather than to let it escalate which is all Sherman wants. I give it up to Sherman though, he's an amazing talent and a champion talker and head shrinker. He's to the NFL what Gary Payton was to basketball.

I expect to see LeGarrette Blount and some pulling guard running his way quite a bit on Sunday. Also, so much of what NE does passing, they do from the inside out (backs, TEs and the slots), so will be interesting to see how much a factor Sherman will be. The one I can't wait to see is Kam Chanceller vs Gronk, one of Sunday's more compelling potential matchups.

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[itjclarke]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/26/video-shows-employee-taking-24-balls-into-bathroom/

So the ballboy carried 2 large bags into a one stall bathroom, emptied the Patriots' bag of footballs, deflated 12 footballs by 1-2 PSI, put the footballs back into the bag, and exited the bathroom in roughly 90 seconds? Let's remember that the ballboy was not aware of any future investigation and wouldn't have been in any rush to do all of this. It's much more likely the kid was taking a piss, which is, you know, the purpose of a bathroom. This story has become an absolute joke.

I was telling a buddy he took a piss then either washed his hands, or "stink palmed" the Colts' game balls... if you've seen Mallrats, you know what I'm talking about.

[itjclarke]

Love the use of the term, "person of interest" btw, like this is some super high level investigation into terrorism or espionage. "Perp" would have been great too.

[rats60]

I guarantee, nothing would make a player look like a bigger chump than would accepting Richard Sherman's mock conciliatory hand shakes. Ask Michael Crabtree last year. I think in both cases those guys did well to just walk away, rather than to let it escalate which is all Sherman wants. I give it up to Sherman though, he's an amazing talent and a champion talker and head shrinker. He's to the NFL what Gary Payton was to basketball.

I expect to see LeGarrette Blount and some pulling guard running his way quite a bit on Sunday. Also, so much of what NE does passing, they do from the inside out (backs, TEs and the slots), so will be interesting to see how much a factor Sherman will be. The one I can't wait to see is Kam Chanceller vs Gronk, one of Sunday's more compelling potential matchups.

Brady started it by talking trash to Sherman. When you start something and the other guy beats you, be a man and admit you are wrong. You don't run away like a little girl. That is pathetic. I understand why Pats fans don't have a problem with that, they are still in denial about Spygate.

Crabtree didn't talk trash to Sherman before that game. It was Sherman who initiated it. In that situation you just walk away. Those two situations aren't remotely comparable.

[th38larg]

I don't go too crazy over sports analytics, but I thought this was pretty damning. If you don't really think that deflated balls (no laughing please) gives you much of an advantage, you should check this out. It's not all about Brady either.

Apologies if this was already posted in the thread or you don't like to read graphs.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

[Runscott]

Sherman never stops talking - his soundbytes aired the other night and was hilarious. He comes after guys unprovoked. Brady new that but still mouthed off. That's fine, but with Sherman you better back it up or be prepared to quietly take the backlash, which is what Brady wisely did.

[steve B]

At least people recognized the quote...........

Superbowl Sunday I might just have to have a beer from the "fire freddy" Mug I bought years ago. (Lets see who gets that one)

Steve B

[Runscott]

My favorite 'Sherman mouthing off' moment is when he mouthed off to gigantic Trent Williams and was then punched in the face. Sherman barely moved and started laughing. I'm thinking if Brady punched him it would have turned out differently.

Found it: Williams punches Richard Sherman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl4ViIwy7KA)

My understanding is that he didn't actually say "You mad bro?" Someone tweeted the infamous pic of him and Brady, along with that quote, and Sherman then adapted it.

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[RichardSimon]

Now they are saying an equipment guy vanished into a rest room with the game footballs. Right, the Pats found someone to fall on the sword.
And if you believe an equipment guy would deflate footballs without orders from the coach, then I have a deed to the Bunker Hill Monument to sell to you.

[yanks12025]

It just keeps getting worse and worse for the anti-Patriots crowd.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/01/26/scientists-agree-that-football-will-lose-air-pressure-when-moved-cooler-place/2KfFPHn9dARXXCwMgBMSkO/story.html?hootPostID=a9b5486742f790c428534771d1e3 d792

I really love the hypocritical Pat fans. Please explain how the colts balls and Patriots backp balls were fine? Pat fans can never admit when they get caught cheating, they just make excuses after excuses. Yet if another team gets caught cheating, pat fans will be the first to boo and scream cheater at them. I'm sure you guys think Aaron Hernandez is innocent and probably want him back.

The cheaters will be punished after the super bowl with a fine and a draft pick taking away. Hopefully the Pats don't win because than the Super Bowl is tainted and it just shows kids that cheating is fine and you can make excuses to get away with it.

[Runscott]

It just keeps getting worse and worse for the anti-Patriots crowd.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/01/26/scientists-agree-that-football-will-lose-air-pressure-when-moved-cooler-place/2KfFPHn9dARXXCwMgBMSkO/story.html?hootPostID=a9b5486742f790c428534771d1e3 d792

Questioning the Patriots' possible rules violation does not make one an "anti-Patriot", any more than you disagreeing with my comments makes you an "anti-runscott".

[RichardSimon]

Too bad that such a great and historic city, one of the best cities in America, has this bunch of cheaters representing them.

[freakhappy]

I really love the hypocritical Pat fans. Please explain how the colts balls and Patriots backp balls were fine? Pat fans can never admit when they get caught cheating, they just make excuses after excuses. Yet if another team gets caught cheating, pat fans will be the first to boo and scream cheater at them. I'm sure you guys think Aaron Hernandez is innocent and probably want him back.



The cheaters will be punished after the super bowl with a fine and a draft pick taking away. Hopefully the Pats don't win because than the Super Bowl is tainted and it just shows kids that cheating is fine and you can make excuses to get away with it.


Take that, patriot fans!! ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[laughlinfan]

As someone else alluded to, I think Belichick already explained how the Patriots skirt (and probably have skirted) the rule for many years, maybe as far back as when they were first allowed to break in their own footballs in 2007. They found a way to artificially increase the PSI by a pound or so (their mysterious "rubbing" process), do this immediately before they are tested, and then just let them settle in at 11.5 or so, with a nice soft ball to throw, catch, and hang on to. Love them or hate them, the Patriots don't miss a trick, and they can say that they followed the letter of the law (if not the spirit) - their balls measured out at 12.5 PSI when they were examined before the game.

The prep accounts for 1 PSI less, the weather for the other. Net result will probably be the NFL taking away the team's ability to break in the ball, or teams submitting the balls two or three hours before testing to prevent this.

Cheating? Not really. Fair play? Not really, either.

[vintagetoppsguy]

It just keeps getting worse and worse for the anti-Patriots crowd.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/01/26/scientists-agree-that-football-will-lose-air-pressure-when-moved-cooler-place/2KfFPHn9dARXXCwMgBMSkO/story.html?hootPostID=a9b5486742f790c428534771d1e3 d792

The article fails to mention how the Colts balls didn't lose pressure. What's your theory on that?

[gregr2]

The article fails to mention how the Colts balls didn't lose pressure. What's your theory on that?

Yeah so bizarre that only the Patriots footballs lost pressure. And when they were refilled at halftime, they didn't lose pressure the rest of the game.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Yeah so bizarre that only the Patriots footballs lost pressure. And when they were refilled at halftime, they didn't lose pressure the rest of the game.

My theory is that it was 20-30 degrees colder on the Pats side of the field than it was on the Colts side of the field. :D

Hey, that's no more ridiculous than some of these other loony theories. :cool:

[HRBAKER]

Based on the fact that they scored nearly twice as many points in the second half with the right balls I would say they may have handicapped themselves to start with. ;)

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[Runscott]

Do we know at what PSI the Colts' footballs started at? Do we know at what PSI the Colts' footballs ended at? Do we know how the Colts prepare their footballs?

No. To help feed your paranoia, since "we" all hate the Patriots for some reason known only to Patriot fans, we don't know anything about any other NFL team's footballs, because the Patriots are the only ones being picked on. It's a conspiracy where all other NFL team's questionable actions are ignored or coverd over (conspiracy). Remember - everyone hates the Patriots.

[freakhappy]

No. To help feed your paranoia, since "we" all hate the Patriots for some reason known only to Patriot fans, we don't know anything about any other NFL team's footballs, because the Patriots are the only ones being picked on. It's a conspiracy where all other NFL team's questionable actions are ignored or coverd over (conspiracy). Remember - everyone hates the Patriots.


Quit being a hater, Scott ;) I liked you a lot more when you were just filled with hate!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[Runscott]

Ha, OK. Another strange post from you.

...I can hardly wait for #14.

[GoldenAge50s]

Hopefully the Pats don't win because than the Super Bowl is tainted ---

I was wondering when this statement would be posted----the excuses, in case Seattle loses, are starting!

Anyone care to suggest how the Patriots will "cheat" their way thru, in case they win???:D

[Tabe]

I don't go too crazy over sports analytics, but I thought this was pretty damning. If you don't really think that deflated balls (no laughing please) gives you much of an advantage, you should check this out. It's not all about Brady either.

Apologies if this was already posted in the thread or you don't like to read graphs.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

The conclusions in that article are laughable. One outlier year and the rest are all right in line with the pre-2007 years. Big deal.

[itjclarke]

Do we know at what PSI the Colts' footballs started at? Do we know at what PSI the Colts' footballs ended at? Do we know how the Colts prepare their footballs?

Andrew Luck supposedly likes them at the upper limit, like Rodgers. Pretty sure I brought this up earlier in the discussion, but it seems to have been ignored.

I think it's also crazy that MIT and Harvard professors are being ignored. Seems safe to assume these guys are smarter than anyone posting in this thread. Even if they were to be Pats fans, I highly doubt anyone in their positions, achieved through years of incredibly hard work and merit, would risk their scientific reputations by fudging calcs. That non Boston area (Pittsburgh) firm's experiment showed an average 1.8 psi shift. That coupled with the possibility the Pats may have figured out a way to temporarily increase ball pressure while the refs measure them seems enough to create doubt in my mind. I'd also challenge anyone here to take air out of 11 balls in 80 seconds.. This includes taking them out and putting them back in the bag.. And I've allotted 10 sec to open and close the door. "on your mark, set, go!"

That said, I guess the "person of interest's" bathroom run, and a team's bad reputation trump science and are seen as damning evidence. Scary, and I really hope I never, for whatever reason find myself in the media/public crosshairs.. Everyone should watch "Gone Girl" as an example of how little people need to form firm, unbreakable opinions.

Back to the rule and enforcement, I have watched video of refs topping balls off. At one point an official says, "this one's within a psi, it's good". If they're willing to let a pound go, maybe the Colts balls, starting at 13.5, are under the limit at 11.5-12 psi by half, but the refs are ok with it. Maybe they started 0.5-1 pound high, and the refs were ok with that? The pressures of these 11 balls (and Colts' 12) has NEVER been publicly confirmed! I doubt they even know, since they apparently just topped them up. One of my first points that still stands, if the refs and the league didn't care to strictly enforce this rule, why should we?? and if the Pats did cheat, punish them and move on.

At least there's still a game to be played, and I know I'm gonna enjoy it.. Hopefully at least some of the others here will as well.:confused:

[itjclarke]

The conclusions in that article are laughable. One outlier year and the rest are all right in line with the pre-2007 years. Big deal.

... and to single out Tom Brady (with Manning) as pushing for the 2007 rule change is ridiculous. Every QB in the league would push for this, but Brady happened to have the star power to get it done.

I can't offer proof of a prior rules change, but I also highly doubt that home teams had ALWAYS supplied the game balls prior to 2007. I'd guess individual teams have supplied their own balls for the bulk of NFL and football history (they do at all other levels). I'd guess this freedom may have been restricted around the same time the "K" ball came into effect... but may be wrong.

Adding-- just read Brad Johnson bribed someone $7500 to break in the balls prior to the SB in 2003. Classic. Either Bucs fans needs to step up to defend their tainted title.. or we can all just agree to not care.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think it's also crazy that MIT and Harvard professors are being ignored. Seems safe to assume these guys are smarter than anyone posting in this thread. Even if they were to be Pats fans, I highly doubt anyone in their positions, achieved through years of incredibly hard work and merit, would risk their scientific reputations by fudging calcs.

Yeah, and we all know science has never been proven wrong :rolleyes:

Ummm....junk science???

[rats60]

I was wondering when this statement would be posted----the excuses, in case Seattle loses, are starting!

Anyone care to suggest how the Patriots will "cheat" their way thru, in case they win???:D

They cheated to get to the game. They may not have needed to cheat to beat the Colts, but what about the Ravens? How many regular season games did they win by cheating? Anything they accomplish will be tainted.

As far as the Harvard or MIT professors, they can be ignored because they haven't shown anything. They can give a theoretical explanation, but have they done actual research? They can't explain why the 12th ball didn't deflate. They can't explain why the Colts balls didn't deflate. Even if they were at 13.5, by the professors theory, they would still have been below 12.5 if effected like the 11 Pats balls. They can't explain why none of the other teams have this problem, even teams in colder climates than NE. They can't explain how the Pats balls deflated in the first Colts game played indoors in a controlled climate. Their theories are bs.

[steve B]

Hernandez was gone before charges were officially filed. He's not coming back even if he somehow gets off which is unlikely. I believe he should be doing some serious time, 20+.

Every team works around a few rules here and there.

The taping thing? Yeah, they did it, they were just dumb enough to do it after the memo was sent about not doing it from the wrong area. And they were punished - Maybe more for ignoring the memo than the actual act. Even dumber, I doubt it gave them any advantage. Who uses signals when there's radios?

If the NFL decides they cheated here, and they probably will, then there will be more fines, and as you say, a draft pick (Maybe two if Goodell is having a bad day) And If they are found to have violated the rules the fines etc. will be appropriate.

Jumping to conclusions without any facts besides what comes out in the press and which changes daily? - Not sure how facts can change so much, but what's reported as fact does.
Well, that's just part of being a sports fan I guess.

Being a Pats fan is kinda fun the last few years. Gives us a little bit of what it must feel like to be a Yankees fan. :D

Steve B






I really love the hypocritical Pat fans. Please explain how the colts balls and Patriots backp balls were fine? Pat fans can never admit when they get caught cheating, they just make excuses after excuses. Yet if another team gets caught cheating, pat fans will be the first to boo and scream cheater at them. I'm sure you guys think Aaron Hernandez is innocent and probably want him back.

The cheaters will be punished after the super bowl with a fine and a draft pick taking away. Hopefully the Pats don't win because than the Super Bowl is tainted and it just shows kids that cheating is fine and you can make excuses to get away with it.

[Runscott]

Andrew Luck supposedly likes them at the upper limit, like Rodgers. Pretty sure I brought this up earlier in the discussion, but it seems to have been ignored.

I think it's also crazy that MIT and Harvard professors are being ignored. Seems safe to assume these guys are smarter than anyone posting in this thread.

You did, and Rodgers is lucky his balls didn't magically super-inflate during the Seahawks loss, although he seemed fairly accurate at the end.

I think professors and scientists want their moment in the spotlight as much as anyone. And I'm certain there are a few like this guy, who are dying to give their opinions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Frink.png

[itjclarke]

. They can't explain why the Colts balls didn't deflate. Even if they were at 13.5, by the professors theory, they would still have been below 12.5 if effected like the 11 Pats balls. They can't explain why none of the other teams have this problem, even teams in colder climates than NE. They can't explain how the Pats balls deflated in the first Colts game played indoors in a controlled climate. Their theories are bs.

I think you're very selective in what you read. Did you not see the comment about refs allowing balls within 1 psi of the NFL limit. This has not been a "problem" before because NO ONE EVER CARED!! I'm sure plenty of footballs have been used at under 12.5 psi, but no one ever complained. Like said before, it's not like refs, or anyone is checking pressure of the game balls in real time

[itjclarke]

Yeah, and we all know science has never been proven wrong :rolleyes:

They won't be proven wrong by this bunch here :D

The guys who actually tested with footballs in Pittsburgh seems pretty compelling to me.. Average 1.8 drop in psi.

[Runscott]

Ian, I hope you (and the scientists and professors) are correct about this. I would much prefer that Brady not be guilty, and I don't want to see the actual Super Bowl affected, regardless of anyone's guilt. On the other hand, a sh*t-storm for Goodell and the NFL is fine by me.

[itjclarke]

Ian, I hope you (and the scientists and professors) are correct about this. I would much prefer that Brady not be guilty, and I don't want to see the actual Super Bowl affected, regardless of anyone's guilt. On the other hand, a sh*t-storm for Goodell and the NFL is fine by me.

I do too, and hope it would just go away. I'd guess the vast majority of guys in the league (or anyone who's played), if answering honestly and not knowing who's involved would have said this is not a big deal. What's kind of lame, is it is a big deal now, and you'll get far fewer honest answers going forward. The viewing public will probably now demand all balls be protected in a vault until 1 min before kick off.. and they'll probably stick a camera on the ball handler, like done with cops, so the angry mob can be certain he's not tampering with the sacred balls in the bathroom.

rats--- I think you've served your purpose honorably in this battle. Now Raider Nation needs your activism against that ball fixer Brad Johnson and the 2002-03 Super Bowl Champion** Bucs.

** tainted due to cheating and overall scumbaggery of the lowest kind

[Runscott]

To be fair, while researching the NFC Championship game, I found this pic.

Can anyone here squeeze a football to make it look like that? :eek:

[freakhappy]

To be fair, while researching the NFC Championship game, I found this pic.



Can anyone here squeeze a football to make it look like that? :eek:


I bet Tom Brady and the patriots touched that ball before the NFC championship game...you know, because we know they cheated and all :)

Can someone remind me why this is even a big deal? Is it because they supposedly cheated? Got caught cheating? Other nfl teams/fans/players are jealous? By now, we all know that every team has probably bent the rules at some point or another, but in most cases it's been swept under the rug, ignored, or possibly revealed to be made an example out of. I don't think cheating is ok, but what if the jaguars were caught wearing illegal cleats? Would we even care? I know this isn't the point, but they outscored the colts even more in the second half with fully inflated balls...giving us more reason to laugh about this whole thing.

I know we have the right to speculate, but we know nothing right now and will have to wait for the results before putting them in our fake prison.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[steve B]

If I had arms like either of those guys I'm guessing I probably could.

But I don't. So the answer is probably not. Unless it's a nerf ball.

Steve B

To be fair, while researching the NFC Championship game, I found this pic.

Can anyone here squeeze a football to make it look like that? :eek:

[bnorth]

NSFW Patriots Cialis Parody Commercial. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=vd3D2gsPUR0

[freakhappy]

I thought this was pretty good

http://teamcoco.com/video/drew-brees-fantasy-football?playlist=x;eyJ0b3RhbCI6MTAsInR5cGUiOiJyZW xhdGVkIiwiaWQiOjg3NDU0fQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TUM301]

Had an EX that could bust balls better than ANY NFL`er, past or present. O U C H !!

[Runscott]

I know we have the right to speculate, but...

Thanks.

Any time someone is on the 'wrong' side of a discussion, they prefer that the discussion be terminated. But yes, this is a discussion forum.

[freakhappy]

Thanks.



Any time someone is on the 'wrong' side of a discussion, they prefer that the discussion be terminated. But yes, this is a discussion forum.


I don't have a problem with speculation, it's just how people jump to conclusions so quickly. It only takes one person to say one thing and everyone believes exactly what they said to be true and nothing else matters :(

[Runscott]

I don't have a problem with speculation, it's just how people jump to conclusions so quickly. It only takes one person to say one thing and everyone believes exactly what they said to be true and nothing else matters :(

How are you coming up with that? We've discussed both sides and people are saying what they think is likely. None of us know what happened and obviously, many of the guesses presented here will be wrong. I already said that I hope I'm wrong about what I think likely happened.

I don't really know you but I've been discussing various OT football stuff with Ian for years and have a great deal of respect for his opinions. My tendency would usually be to agree with him, and he's swayed me on a few points in this discussion.

But when you have guys just saying that everyone is picking on the Patriots because we are "haters" or because of their "success" - that is classic deflection and doesn't win anyone to your way of thinking.

[freakhappy]

Scott...I don't care about swaying anyone, but what I'm talking about is how this thread started and a few of the people continue to close their ears to what is being discussed...and for the most part, you aren't one of them I'm talking about.

[Runscott]

Fair enough.

Here's another angle for 'the atmosphere did it' guys: I located a photo last year of Ben Roethlisberger squeezing a ball to a point that it looked almost empty (during a play). Can't find it now, but I am surprised Patriot supporters haven't come up with a pile of such photos - it would certainly deflate the idea that, if anyone's doing anything, it's not limited to Brady.

I have to admit, if I had remembered that photo when deflate gate first started, I probably would have started out with a completely different mind-set, which can make a big difference.

[nolemmings]

Regardless of whether you believe the rule is stupid or that others do it, I still expect the NFL to penalize the Patriots when this is all said and done. Despite the outraged Robert Kraft demanding an apology unless “irrefutable” evidence is brought forth, that should not be and likely won’t be the level of proof employed by the league; rather a preponderance or “more probable than not” standard will be used. BTW, Kraft’s was another public presser faux pas, as the league had asked that comments be withheld during its investigation, and yet there’s defiance right out of the gate–or off the plane as it were-by the ersatz leader of Patriot Nation. Even sycophant Goodell cannot be pleased with that.

Interestingly, I had Letterman on in the background last night and his guest was Rachel Maddow, a diehard Patriots fan, who may have inadvertently done her team a disservice. I’m speaking third-hand and will defer to any more accurate accounts, but as I understand it, she spent time on her show poking fun at the whole incident and then asked one of her staffers or interns to re-create the whole 90 second bathroom scenario. She let him practice, then had him take two bags of 12 balls into the bathroom for 90 seconds to deflate as many as he could. He was successful on eight, which apparently satisfied her that it cannot be done as speculated. Now this guy is not a trained NFL equipment guy and has had at most a few hours of practice, yet he got through about 70% of the deflating, which also allowed for time removing and re-packing the balls in the bag. Personally I never thought the bathroom thing should be construed as the only factor, since the needle necessary to deflate is about the length of a man’s pinky finger and could easily be concealed in gloves or under a towel, etc. on the field. But I am curious to see if the NFL runs similar experiments with trained personnel as part of its investigation, as I was surprised that Maddow, who does not pretend to be a sports journalist or have any scientific insight and who is on record as loving the Patriots, still came somewhat close to burning her own team.

[CMIZ5290]

Bill Belicheat and Shady Brady at it again. 11 of 12 balls were underinflated during Sunday's AFC Championship Game.

Anything to get an advantage.

Caught cheating again!

Please......Get a life. 6 Super Bowl appearances and you want to talk about footballs????? They outscored Baltimore 28-0 in the second half with brand new footballs. This is just insane....

[CMIZ5290]

Bill Belicheat and Shady Brady at it again. 11 of 12 balls were underinflated during Sunday's AFC Championship Game.

Anything to get an advantage.

Caught cheating again!

Phil- sounds like you need some cheese with your whine...:D:D

[Runscott]

Kevin, what if you knew without a doubt that Brady had asked an equipment manager to deflate the balls AFTER they had been approved and marked by the officials? Remember - you know, without a doubt. What option would you choose?


punish Brady and/or Belichek
do nothing, and the process for checking balls remains the same going forward;i.e-it's no big deal and doesn't affect the game, so in the future any qb can do this.
no punishment, but change the rules so no one can change inflation in the future

[HRBAKER]

That's easy you punish Brady with a suspension at the beginning of next season and if Belichek knew you take a first round draft pick and a second because their first round pick is basically the same as a second.

Then I ask them why would they do it when they obviously score more points with a fully inflated ball. ;)

The Colts must have gone scoreless in the second half bc they were tired from carrying the heavier ball.

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin, what if you knew without a doubt that Brady had asked an equipment manager to deflate the balls AFTER they had been approved and marked by the officials? Remember - you know, without a doubt. What option would you choose?


punish Brady and/or Belichek
do nothing, and the process for checking balls remains the same going forward;i.e-it's no big deal and doesn't affect the game, so in the future any qb can do this.
no punishment, but change the rules so no one can change inflation in the future


Scott- absolutely punishment is in order, and severe at that. The Patriots could have beaten the Ravens using tennis balls. But that's not the point, it is still an integrity and ethics issue. The ball boy, if he did it, was told by someone to do it. The irony in all of this is that the two best teams are in the Super Bowl, IMO. Yes, Seattle pulled out a 1 in 100 miracle, but these are the two best teams in their respective conferences....

[freakhappy]

Scott- absolutely punishment is in order, and severe at that. The Patriots could have beaten the Ravens using tennis balls. But that's not the point, it is still an integrity and ethics issue. The ball boy, if he did it, was told by someone to do it. The irony in all of this is that the two best teams are in the Super Bowl, IMO. Yes, Seattle pulled out a 1 in 100 miracle, but these are the two best teams in their respective conferences....


^^^i agree with Kevin

[Runscott]

Thanks guys.

[itjclarke]

I was late checking in tonight. It's heartening to see everything copacetic and everyone generally in agreement, especially Scott and Mike! You guys were never too far apart. As Scott mentioned, we've had good some OT discussions over the years, and I've had some good ones with Mike ever since we locked horns during the 2012 WS (fueled largely on my end by alcohol and the post game mob after Pablo's 3 HRs) but ended in agreement. You guys are a couple reasons this board is awesome.

Couple quick nuggets, looks like it became "official" today, the NFL refs did not bother to log the pressure of the balls at halftime of the AFC Championship.. I knew they didn't care!... and the actual weight of the balls, under inflated or not is virtually the same.

[vintagetoppsguy]

They outscored Baltimore 28-0 in the second half with brand new footballs.

The Patriots could have beaten the Ravens using tennis balls.


I think before anyone is allowed an opinion in ths thread, they should at least get the teams right first. It was the Colts, not the Ravens. Just saying.


^^^i agree with Kevin

Obviously. You're just as confused as he is.

[freakhappy]

I think before anyone is allowed an opinion in ths thread, they should at least get the teams right first. It was the Colts, not the Ravens. Just saying.









Obviously. You're just as confused as he is.


Obviously, you don't like other people to have their own opinions and why the cheap shot at Kevin and me? Sounds like you have an issue with him that runs deeper than this thread. Do us all a favor and man up a little and quit being petty...doubtful, but try.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Obviously, you don't like other people to have their own opinions and why the cheap shot at Kevin and me? Sounds like you have an issue with him that runs deeper than this thread. Do us all a favor and man up a little and quit being petty...doubtful, but try.

Wasn't a cheap shot and no personal issues. You obviously didn't understand my statement. I didn't say anyone couldn't have an opinion. I said, they should know what they're talking about BEFORE having an opinion. Calling them the Ravens once is a mental mistake. Calling them the Ravens twice in two separate posts is ignorant.

[freakhappy]

So he mistakenly called the colts, the ravens...am I missing something that actually matters?

What's funny is that I remember when I read his comment and I thought to myself, they almost got beat by the ravens....but I agreed with the rest of it, so I went with it. All in all, not a big deal and not sure why you felt the need to be "that guy".

[vintagetoppsguy]

So he mistakenly called the colts, the ravens...am I missing something that actually matters?


Yes, you sure are missing something. The Colts are NOT the Ravens. The Indianapolis Colts moved from Baltimore in 1984. The Baltimore Ravens came into the league in 1996. If you or Kevin can't tell the difference between the two, then watch a few more games and then make your comments. That way, it will at least look like you know what you're talking about.

Keep posting, you're just proving my point over and over.

BTW, since you mentioned "cheap shot" isn't starting a post with "Please......Get a life" a cheap shot? Or am I missing something?

[freakhappy]

Wow...miss the morning coffee or something? You are actually proving my point over and over by being a dick about something so petty. And at this point, it clearly shows that you have a problem with me, Kevin or both of us. I've never seen anyone make a big deal about someone accidentally saying the wrong team...ever. If you do, however, have a problem with me, I'd like to know so we can get to the bottom of it. I don't like to leave loose ends hanging around when we could easily resolve it like two men, not children.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Wow...miss the morning coffee or something? You are actually proving my point over and over by being a dick about something so petty. And at this point, it clearly shows that you have a problem with me, Kevin or both of us. I've never seen anyone make a big deal about someone accidentally saying the wrong team...ever. If you do, however, have a problem with me, I'd like to know so we can get to the bottom of it. I don't like to leave loose ends hanging around when we could easily resolve it like two men, not children.

Wow, an internet tough guy. Never seen one of those before.

Keep posting, you're just proving my point over and over.

[freakhappy]

Lol...tough guy? I want to talk about this underlying issue you have with me and I get a tough guy label? That's not fair, David. You should try to be sensible...you'd be surprised, it might just work in your favor! :)

What's this great point that you keep suggesting that is being made over and over? That you are incapable of accepting that someone made a simple mistake? Please share

[vintagetoppsguy]

Mike, if there is an issue between us, it's all in your head. I don't have an issue with you.

As far as calling a team by another name, we've already went over this. To do it once is a mental mistake. To do it twice is ignorance. He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

If I called a T206 a 1952 Topps on the main board, someone might correct me. If I do it twice, it's ignorance.

[freakhappy]

Good to hear...you don't have an issue with me. That is what I wanted to know.

I see what you are saying about the team name being mentioned wrong, twice, but he clearly had Baltimore on the mind and I believe it was an honest mistake...don't you? I think it was just a coincidence that the colts used to reside in Baltimore and those two teams just played the pats...which might have got you more excited that he misspoke one team over the other. I think it had to do with the fact that the pats just played them rather than the initial reason.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I believe it was an honest mistake...don't you?

Maybe it was. But when he starts his post with "Get a life..." it's probably not going to end well. I know it wasn't directed at me, but it doesn't matter. Until that point, the thread had been cordial, even if we do have differences of opinion.

[freakhappy]

Fair enough. And you are right...starting a post like that isn't a good way to get things going, it just stirs the pot. And I apologize, because I was so caught up in the ravens/colts mistake we were talking about that I didn't realize that the "get a life" post by Kevin was something that set you off as well.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Fair enough. And you are right...starting a post like that isn't a good way to get things going, it just stirs the pot. And I apologize, because I was so caught up in the ravens/colts mistake we were talking about that I didn't realize that the "get a life" post by Kevin was something that set you off as well.

I apologize too if I offended you.

[RichardSimon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feuNeJewzDo

[Runscott]

I was late checking in tonight. It's heartening to see everything copacetic and everyone generally in agreement, especially Scott and Mike! You guys were never too far apart. As Scott mentioned, we've had good some OT discussions over the years, and I've had some good ones with Mike ever since we locked horns during the 2012 WS (fueled largely on my end by alcohol and the post game mob after Pablo's 3 HRs) but ended in agreement. You guys are a couple reasons this board is awesome.

Couple quick nuggets, looks like it became "official" today, the NFL refs did not bother to log the pressure of the balls at halftime of the AFC Championship.. I knew they didn't care!... and the actual weight of the balls, under inflated or not is virtually the same.

Thanks Ian - we need more posts like this.

I think anyone who can have a heated discussion with opposing views, on the internet with a complete stranger, and it ends well - should be congratulated. When it involves football, probably moreso.

I will say this about Kevin - he's a great guy, and like a lot of people here, you need to spend 30 minutes with him on the phone and you'll understand that. And David and I have beaten each other to pulp before in these discussions, and I have no problems with him either. It takes a lot of time and I think Mike is a much quicker learner than some of the rest of us.

Also very glad to hear this about the footballs and the refs - looking forward to the ESPN and NFL Channel analyses today. I really did not like the idea of not liking Brady.

[nolemmings]

Couple quick nuggets, looks like it became "official" today, the NFL refs did not bother to log the pressure of the balls at halftime of the AFC Championship.. I knew they didn't care!
Please explain the logic of that statement. Whether they logged the balls or not before the game is not determinative. They were checked and found to be within spec, unless you're calling the ref a liar. If anything, the failure to log them in helps New England. If the actual inflation of the Pats footballs was closer to 13.0 than 12.5 then the amount of deflation at halftime was even greater. Since they were not logged the Pats are given the benefit of the doubt that they started at the lower 12.5 psi. This is not the refs not caring, this is common sense--why log in the starting point when the rate of inflation is irrelevant so long as the balls are within the acceptable range? It's where they go from there that matters most.

[CMIZ5290]

I am truly sorry for the mishap on the teams. I have been following pro football for 40 yrs, and it was just a simple mistake. Had I continued following the thread, I would have known of the mistake and corrected it in another post. I just now saw the last several posts of the thread 10 minutes ago. The only reason why I responded to the thread in the first place was the continuous moaning and groaning of the deflated footballs. Ironically, it was from a guy from Mass. My point was simply that the Patriots would have beaten the Colts no matter what shape the footballs were in. Having said all that, the Patriots should and will be punished strictly if this all proves to be of their knowing intentions....Thanks

[itjclarke]

Please explain the logic of that statement. Whether they logged the balls or not before the game is not determinative. They were checked and found to be within spec, unless you're calling the ref a liar. If anything, the failure to log them in helps New England. If the actual inflation of the Pats footballs was closer to 13.0 than 12.5 then the amount of deflation at halftime was even greater. Since they were not logged the Pats are given the benefit of the doubt that they started at the lower 12.5 psi. This is not the refs not caring, this is common sense--why log in the starting point when the rate of inflation is irrelevant so long as the balls are within the acceptable range? It's where they go from there that matters most.

I'm not sure where you take exception. I'm just saying the refs didn't log the pressures at half time when the ball were found to be low. Yes, this helps the Pats... And I think it also shows how little the refs, or the league cared about this before the media blew it way up. They simply filled the balls back up and player the 2nd half. IMO, it was Chris Mortensen and others blowing this up that made it a public controversy.

[nolemmings]

What is the point of a log?-- it was a pass/fail test. They noted that 11 balls failed--why note it at all if they did not believe it important? What should they have done--halted the contest, immediately toss a player or coach from the game, declare a forfeit? You can blame it on the media all you want-- seems a lot of ex-players and coaches have commented that they think it is worthy of discussion, criticism, investigation, etc. Then again, they could all be haters.

[itjclarke]

What is the point of a log?-- it was a pass/fail test. They noted that 11 balls failed--why note it at all if they did not believe it important? What should they have done--halted the contest, immediately toss a player or coach from the game, declare a forfeit? You can blame it on the media all you want-- seems a lot of ex-players and coaches have commented that they think it is worthy of discussion, criticism, investigation, etc. Then again, they could all be haters.

What's the point of a log?? Do you think if the NFL was serious to enforce this rule, they would not take note of how under inflated the balls were? By not doing so, they've left open all the possibilities these balls were under inflated due to atmospheric conditions. Had they logged and recorded that the 11 balls were at say 7-8 psi, they'd have a much better case to make against the Pats. As is, they didn't care to make a case. Why should we care about a league rule if the league didn't care?? (I go back to the example of the MLB base coach's box)

Also, do you truly trust all these ex players and coaches to be objective? (and please feel free to provide specific names/examples). I know one of my favorite all time players Jerry Rice said this controversy taints the Pats legacy, and that if they win the SB they deserve an asterisk, blah, blah. I love the Niners, and loved watching him play, but I think his comments were moronic. You can trust his opinions if you want, but this is coming from a guy who played on a team who's O-line coach Bob McKittrick taught players how to leg whip, make it look accidental, and in doing so may have often times severely injured guys while avoiding a flag... from a team who's D-line lathered its jerseys in vasoline so that O-linemen couldn't grasp their shoulder pads while trying to block...from one of the first teams to sow up their jersey sleeves so tacklers had nothing to grab at... and from a team that very possibly bypassed the salary cap and paid players under the table during its 1994 SB run. Jerry Rice himself fumbled 2-3 plays ahead of Terrell Owens' "The Catch II" but so effectively sold that he had not, the ref simply gave the ball back to SF. This just scratches the surface of questionable things done to gain an advantage, and this is in no way unique to the Niners (or Pats). In most cases people either ignore this stuff or call it gamesmanship.

I find it hard to believe guys like Rice are mostly speaking out based upon their sense integrity for the game. IMO, Jerry Rice said what he did because he doesn't want the Pats to challenge the Niiners' legacy, and smelled blood in the water. I've heard other Niners interviewed going back to around 2005 talking about not wanting Brady to ever match Montana's 4 SB rings, etc. I've also watched retired '72 Dolphins pop champagne every year when the last undefeated team loses. These guys can be just as petty and jealous as the next guy. I don't hold it against them, but it makes me take a lot of what they say with a grain of salt.

Back to the point of game ball air pressure, Steve Young, one of the more intellectual QBs (QB/JD) to ever play the game admitted on radio he never even knew there was a rule for air pressure. Again, it's been a non factor, non issue. I think just about every team in the league will do just about anything within its control (not necessarily within the rules) to create an advantage. I'm not saying this is always the right thing to do, just that it doesn't make the Pats an exception, and it doesn't justify their being singled out so far above and beyond other teams (no one's talking about Brad Johnson's bribing someone to work in SB game balls). If the NFL has strong evidence the Pats cheated, great, punish them and move on. However, even if guilty, IMO this violation is way down the list of violations that occur on a regular basis.

[itjclarke]

Just found this little nugget from 1988... vaseline, stickum, silicone, even Coca Cola. This is a great peak at what the NFL has always been, and what it still is.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/24923/IN-NFL-CHEATING-IS-CONSIDERED-A-MATTER-OF-SIMPLE-SURVIVAL.html?pg=all

[nolemmings]

It is incredibly weak to suggest that a league that fines its players for wearing the wrong colored socks, gloves or wrist bands does not take seriously a rule that directly impacts on the fairness of competition. Yes, the NFL could mark each ball with a number before the game, measure the psi and log it, then do the same at halftime. At halftime or after the game they could then preserve any balls that were found to have deflated in a controlled atmosphere and under quarantined conditions, so that any team accused of deflating them could have its “atmospheric” experts come in to perform their own measurements without fear of a “contaminated” environment. Only then can we conclude the league is serious? Actually, all balls will need to be quarantined, including, say, those used by the Indianapolis Colts, none of which lost more than 1.0 psi (if they lost any at all) while nearly all of the Patriots’ balls fell by more than that, so we can listen to people guess, contort and postulate how different handling and other conditions explain away the apparent contradiction. Only then can we conclude that this is a serious rule and that it was violated.

How about just having the footballs delivered by armored truck to the field, where they are measured before all who care, then given to the custody and control of only NFL-employed ballboys for handling during the game? It may well now come to pass that the league will insist on a uniform psi for all teams, that it will inflate the balls itself to exactly that specification, and there will be no discretion for individual teams’ tastes. Your QB doesn’t like the level of pressure, get over it or get a new QB. Part of me wonders why this has not happened already. Pitchers don’t get to take a bag of hand-selected balls out to the mound with them, the Spurs don’t grab a rebound and then ask for a different basketball while they are on offense, etc. Seems like a fair resolution to me.

I have not heard one current or former player or coach ever cop to changing the inflation of footballs before or during a game. Most QBs will admit that the lower inflated balls would be easier to throw in certain or maybe all conditions–this from Tarkenton is typical:

Q: What are your thoughts on `Deflate-gate,’ Fran?

A: “This has been going on for a lot of years. We always rubbed the balls down and got them ready when I played. But we didn’t, in my era, deflate the balls. When you deflate the balls, it’s easier to throw it and easier to catch it. And you don’t fumble as much.

“It is wrong. And the NFL has said nothing. Nothing.”

Despite the fact that most QBs consider it advantageous to have the balls under-inflated and most also conceded to have “worked up” the footballs, you would think it would have occurred to them to outright deflate them. Yet it seems none did. Why not, one could wonder, especially if the league did not consider that a serious rules violation. Perhaps the players thought it would be cheating (see Tarkenton) and/or that the league could consider it so. You think?

[Runscott]

...

[Runscott]

Despite the fact that most QBs consider it advantageous to have the balls under-inflated and most also conceded to have “worked up” the footballs, you would think it would have occurred to them to outright deflate them. Yet it seems none did. Why not, one could wonder, especially if the league did not consider that a serious rules violation. Perhaps the players thought it would be cheating (see Tarkenton) and/or that the league could consider it so. You think?

Todd - I guarantee you other quarterbacks have been doing it. I saw a photo of Ben Roethlisberger holding onto a football like it was a nerf ball. Impossible with normal inflation. Wish I could find that pic again.

[nolemmings]

I do not doubt the balls can easily be marked. The rest of the requirements to make for a controlled environment and avoid these "atmospheric" arguments could be considered rather extreme and oppressive, however. Still, I suppose they could be done--presume cheaters and take all precautions, I guess. That does not mean their absence shows a lack of concern by the league, however.
I still like my solution better--take all discretion and team preferences out of the equation and have the league keep control of the footballs through all steps. Everybody plays with the same balls-- in fact, no need to have different balls on each sideline, then there is no incentive to alter for advantage. Even your K ball example acknowledges that both teams use the same ball, and that really only one or two are used during a game, which is a different scenario altogether than what happened here.

[nolemmings]

Todd - I guarantee you other quarterbacks have been doing it. I saw a photo of Ben Roethlisberger holding onto a football like it was a nerf ball. Impossible with normal inflation. Wish I could find that pic again.

Sorry Scott, whatever pics you show me, I'm not buying your guarantee. If someone comes forward and admits it, I'll change my stance. I simply find it hard to believe that the Steelers-- a routinely successful team un-liked by many and with at least one hated rival, apparently have not been challenged for this same conduct. Nor have others. I refuse to drink the kool-aid that this vast group of people is just out to get the Patriots. You might think that at least one former player--maybe one looking for attention or with simply no concern about fallout--would step forward and say this ball deflation happens regularly. I just can't see such a diverse group of football people from different eras all closing ranks and declining to admit that this happens. Now, if one or two did come forward I would likely remain skeptical about their assertions and would look closely at them, but I would at least expect to see that much happen and as yet, it has not.

[nolemmings]

no one's talking about Brad Johnson's bribing someone to work in SB game balls

Well, let's see what Brad says:

"I feel like my name has been slandered by using the word bribery," Johnson told Pro Football Now Wednesday afternoon, saying that he tipped equipment managers as he normally would, not specifically to scuff game balls."This has been blown way out of proportion," Johnson texted. "Rich Gannon and I had met the week of the Super Bowl and agreed to work the balls in the week of the Super Bowl, just like we would do for any other game. The balls were used by both teams and fair for everyone. I really don’t understand what the big deal is. Rich Gannon and I talked today, too, and we both laughed at the nonsense of this story.

"I never touched the balls before the game. And no one ever complained, be it the refs, players or quarterbacks. We [he and Gannon] were both fine with all the balls that we played with."

So in summary:
1. No bribery;
2. No deflation of balls, just scuff/rubbing as now allowed but not then;
3. Done with full knowledge and consent of opponent; and most importantly
4. No advantage--balls used by both teams "and fair for everyone".

Maybe that's why nobody's talking about it.

[Runscott]

Sorry Scott, whatever pics you show me, I'm not buying your guarantee. If someone comes forward and admits it, I'll change my stance. I simply find it hard to believe that the Steelers-- a routinely successful team un-liked by many and with at least one hated rival, apparently have not been challenged for this same conduct. Nor have others. I refuse to drink the kool-aid that this vast group of people is just out to get the Patriots. You might think that at least one former player--maybe one looking for attention or with simply no concern about fallout--would step forward and say this ball deflation happens regularly. I just can't see such a diverse group of football people from different eras all closing ranks and declining to admit that this happens. Now, if one or two did come forward I would likely remain skeptical about their assertions and would look closely at them, but I would at least expect to see that much happen and as yet, it has not.

What if someone had called out the Steelers 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 15 years ago? even 40 years ago? If the Steelers were called out for the same thing 40 years ago, you could still have said that it makes no sense that others cheated before them, because some other team would have gotten called out for it at some point up until 1975. There's a first time for everything, and the Patriots are the first - that's my opinion, but obviously I can't prove anything.

[nolemmings]

Well why wouldn't someone speak out and admit it if it happened 5, 15, 40 years ago? Enough time has passed that they likely would face no repercussions. Maybe a ball-boy or equipment manager who hasn't been involved in football for decades and who really has no legacy to tarnish, if that's even a concern for others. Hell, maybe a tell-all book from such a guy who needs $$$ or who wants his 15 minutes of fame. Yet not a peep. All the more mysterious if it's not that big a deal as some here have suggested-- you'd think it would have popped up in one player or coach's autobiography or another over the past 50 years if it was no biggie or if it was widespread. Show me, please.

[Runscott]

Well why wouldn't someone speak out and admit it if it happened 5, 15, 40 years ago? Enough time has passed that they likely would face no repercussions. Maybe a ball-boy or equipment manager who hasn't been involved in football for decades and who really has no legacy to tarnish, if that's even a concern for others. Hell, maybe a tell-all book from such a guy who needs $$$ or who wants his 15 minutes of fame. Yet not a peep. All the more mysterious if it's not that big a deal as some here have suggested-- you'd think it would have popped up in one player or coach's autobiography or another over the past 50 years if it was no biggie or if it was widespread. Show me, please.

Very good points, but I don't think anyone cared. I think the former quarterbacks who are speaking out are the ones who did not deflate balls and I think the guys who did deflate balls are keeping their mouths shut...for now. It's very possible that some ex-qb will eventually come forward and say that he did the same thing.

And of course, it's also possible that Brady didn't do anything, which makes this whole discussion an exercise in revisionist history...at least my parts, anyway :)

[nolemmings]

Actually Scott, I will stand corrected, at least somewhat, as Terry Bradshaw wrote that teams commonly deflated balls before 2000. That may be why it was not a huge topic of discussion.

“Some teams—who were not the Steelers—after the officials had checked and approved the game balls, would let out a couple of pounds of air to make it easier for the quarterback to grip it. A little less air would make the ball spongier."

Most importantly, however, he noted that both teams played with the same ball.
And there's the rub, so to speak. Which again makes me wonder why that rule is not in place today--both sides using the same ball. There is far less incentive to cheat when your opponent has the exact same equipment or when he can easily and often feel for himself that some league spec is not being followed and he perceives a disadvantage.

[Runscott]

I agree with your solution, and I bet it gets implemented. You can say it was because Goodell read your post here, and I won't dispute you :)

[itjclarke]

Well, let's see what Brad says:

"I feel like my name has been slandered by using the word bribery," Johnson told Pro Football Now Wednesday afternoon, saying that he tipped equipment managers as he normally would, not specifically to scuff game balls."This has been blown way out of proportion," Johnson texted. "Rich Gannon and I had met the week of the Super Bowl and agreed to work the balls in the week of the Super Bowl, just like we would do for any other game. The balls were used by both teams and fair for everyone. I really don’t understand what the big deal is. Rich Gannon and I talked today, too, and we both laughed at the nonsense of this story.

"I never touched the balls before the game. And no one ever complained, be it the refs, players or quarterbacks. We [he and Gannon] were both fine with all the balls that we played with."

So in summary:
1. No bribery;
2. No deflation of balls, just scuff/rubbing as now allowed but not then;
3. Done with full knowledge and consent of opponent; and most importantly
4. No advantage--balls used by both teams "and fair for everyone".

Maybe that's why nobody's talking about it.

I DON'T CARE EITHER. I only brought it up as an example to show a media double standard towards the Pats. I don't care how it's portrayed, Johnson was not supposed to do this. However, you and others seem willing and able to draw lines which make Johnson's actions OK, and the alleged actions by the Pats (key word alleged), which will likely never be proven, not OK. I also love how a line is drawn as to whether he deflated the balls or not.. how has deflating balls become the end all be all of unfair advantage? And why do you assume all QBs would prefer to have had that ball scuffed up. Whatever he may say about it, Gannon threw 4 picks in that SB. Apparently Elway always wanted game balls straight out of the box, so it would have been a disadvantage to him had the opposing QB paid someone to scuff the game balls. Johnson shouldn't have done what he did... however, I say again, I don't care that he did.

Football has just been played differently than other sports like baseball. Teams have had the ability to customize the game balls to some extent (whether legal or not), and I personally have no issue with it. I've brought it up a few times, and you can take it as relevant or non-relevant to this discussion.. but HS and college teams chose their own game balls (stamped with their logo), and that in some cases, these footballs are totally different. Hold a Wilson 1005 compared to a Wilson 1001 circa 2000, and it's a TOTALLY different football. The NFL ball Terry Bradshaw is referring to is different also. The old balls were slimmer in your hand and are definitely easier to throw then current balls.

I'm on the other side of argument, and think the NFL should just let these guys do what they want, short of using stickum, or playing with totally flat balls. Some QBs want more pressure, some want less, and I'm totally fine with allowing them to do that. Any NFL QB can throw a ball that's less than ideal (high or low pressure, worn, wet, muddy), but if one pressure feels more comfortable to him than another, it's all good to me. I think most of this stuff is mental anyway.. I think it's more important that Brady feels comfortable with the ball, and thinks it's at the right pressure, as opposed to gaining a strong advantage using a softer ball. That said, I'd be nearly certain that going forward all teams lose the ability to touch the ball prior to the game.

Per the link I'd included, stretching the rules or outright cheating are a part of this game. I'm not arguing it as right, but football is dirty as hell, and anything you can imagine would create an advantage has been tried. In saying this, I think most of those violations listed in that article had greater impact on games. I think a D line with silicone or vaseline all over their jerseys has more effect on a game, as on every play they are more likely to slip blocks, more likely to be held, etc. I think leg whipping is even worse because it jeopardizes careers. I think the level of advantage gained, or danger created, by a given rules violation should have equal impact on the way it's handled/disciplined by the league. For this reason, I just don't care much at all about the deflate gate... and had the press not blown this up, I don't think the NFL would have either.

[itjclarke]

Regardless of the differing opinions, let's watch the game!!! :D

[freakhappy]

Regardless of the differing opinions, let's watch the game!!! :D


Amen! I'm ready for some football!

[DeanH3]

Go Hawks!!!!!

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[nolemmings]

Then I'll wait for your report, oh keeper of the facts.

[Runscott]

Way to jump to conclusions that we are jumping to conclusions. I thought we were having a discussion?

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[Runscott]

Unless there is a body, a smoking gun and someone standing over it covered with blood, you are jumping to conclusions and should not discuss? Okay.

[Econteachert205]

Classless Seahawks lose lolllolololol let the bitching begin bwahahahahha

[yanks12025]

Classless Seahawks lose lolllolololol let the bitching begin bwahahahahha



I'm neither a Seahawks or pats fan. But I find it funny you talking about class. Hahahahahahahaha. Patriots are Probably one of the most classless team in all of sports and Boston is one of the most classless cities in America.

[Econteachert205]

I'm neither a Seahawks or pats fan. But I find it funny you talking about class. Hahahahahahahaha. Patriots are Probably one of the most classless team in all of sports and Boston is one of the most classless cities in America.

Troll got fed fast. Btw seattle is an awesome city. Just a little poor sportsmanship on my part.

[Ladder7]

Congrats to Pats Nation!

[HRBAKER]

Excellent game, great playmaking on both sides of the ball, a dash of questionable play calling and some no-names on both teams making big plays. Congrats to the Pats on SB #4. The fracas at the end was unfortunate but doesn't mar an otherwise great game.

[GoldenAge50s]

I doubt very much if ANY Super Bowl will EVER match the series of plays that happened in the last minute of this game.

Manningham & Tyree flashed thru my mind on that pass play--another unbelievable loss, and then---the Good Lord served up some JUSTICE!

[yanks12025]

Troll got fed fast. Btw seattle is an awesome city. Just a little poor sportsmanship on my part.

Lol. Look who's talking.

[the 'stache]

I'm neither a Seahawks or pats fan. But I find it funny you talking about class. Hahahahahahahaha. Patriots are Probably one of the most classless team in all of sports and Boston is one of the most classless cities in America.

Brock, the Seahawk fans (not including those that post here, which have been nothing but top notch) I have seen on the internet in the last few weeks have been some of the most vulgar, classless excuses I have ever seen in sports discussions. I am so glad that the Seahawks lost. I am only sorry that Russell Wilson had to throw the losing pick. But I am glad that Pete Carroll got to lose in gut wrenching fashion on the biggest stage.

[freakhappy]

Congrats to the pats and their fans...great game! Fred, I bet you're happy right now...take it all in, buddy!

[TUM301]

Man that was a hell of an exciting game, just what the NFL ordered after the last 2 weeks of sideshows. Belickick/kraft/Brady really wanted this one and their remarks after the game proved it. All championships are special but this one really feels great, down 10 in the 4`th against this def. was a hell of a chore. I`d say 86 Sox, Pats/Rams, and maybe a tie for 3`rd between 2011 Bruins and tonite`s win is how I`d rank them. Seattle will be back, get Wilson a WR, and as long as Bel-Brady are around the Pats will remain a contender. On to pitchers and catchers !!!!!!

[jiw98]

Congrats to the Patriots and their fans on an exciting Super Bowl win.

I'm sure Fred is REALLY HAPPY. Congrats Fred.

[itjclarke]

Congrats to the Pats and their fans. What an amazing game, and 4th quarter comeback.

I hope this thread topic dies down along with the story.

[Runscott]

Brock, the Seahawk fans (not including those that post here, which have been nothing but top notch) I have seen on the internet in the last few weeks have been some of the most vulgar, classless excuses I have ever seen in sports discussions. I am so glad that the Seahawks lost. I am only sorry that Russell Wilson had to throw the losing pick. But I am glad that Pete Carroll got to lose in gut wrenching fashion on the biggest stage.

Wow.

Well, I'm happy for you Bill.

[Runscott]

Congrats to the Pats and their fans. What an amazing game, and 4th quarter comeback.

I hope this thread topic dies down along with the story.

It was great - no one can take those two 4th-quarter touchdown drives away from Brady. And even if Wilson had not thrown that pick, the Pats might have made a goal-line stand against Lynch. There's no telling.

I would be much more okay with losing the game if I could have woken up this morning and not read some of the tripe posted by people here who I used to respect. Really classless behavior.

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[itjclarke]

Lol, Jerry Rice, another self-righteous hypocrite.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/06/rice-admits-to-illegal-use-of-stickum/

Definitely not unique to him, but I did think his comments about deflate gate were moronic (and said so here). Charles Haley's comments ("Joe Montana didn't need to cheat", "lost all respect for Brady", etc) yesterday were really stupid as well.

Another double standard, I'm not seeing much outcry over the Falcons blaring extra stadium noise. It's being reported, being discussed some, but definitely not generating the backlash deflate gate did. I think it can easily be argued that blaring crowd noise/supplemented by speakers would have a greater effect on games than deflated balls. If you neutralize the line's ability to hear their protection audibles, the QB's ability to audiblize, or even clearly hear his helmet speaker, it's going to greatly hinder an offense.

[HRBAKER]

Definitely not unique to him, but I did think his comments about deflate gate were moronic (and said so here). Charles Haley's comments ("Joe Montana didn't need to cheat", "lost all respect for Brady", etc) yesterday were really stupid as well.

Another double standard, I'm not seeing much outcry over the Falcons blaring extra stadium noise. It's being reported, being discussed some, but definitely not generating the backlash deflate gate did. I think it can easily be argued that blaring crowd noise/supplemented by speakers would have a greater effect on games than deflated balls. If you neutralize the line's ability to hear their protection audibles, the QB's ability to audiblize, or even clearly hear his helmet speaker, it's going to greatly hinder an offense.

Of course you're not seeing much about the Falcons, it's success that breeds contempt, not mediocrity.

[Runscott]

Another double standard, I'm not seeing much outcry over the Falcons blaring extra stadium noise. It's being reported, being discussed some, but definitely not generating the backlash deflate gate did. I think it can easily be argued that blaring crowd noise/supplemented by speakers would have a greater effect on games than deflated balls. If you neutralize the line's ability to hear their protection audibles, the QB's ability to audiblize, or even clearly hear his helmet speaker, it's going to greatly hinder an offense.

I didn't hear about this, but I think it should be stopped. To me that is clearly worse than deflated balls.

By the way, the Seattle Times headline on Monday morning was "DEFLATED".

[HRBAKER]

Scott,
You could kinda see that one coming, right?

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[freakhappy]

Definitely not unique to him, but I did think his comments about deflate gate were moronic (and said so here). Charles Haley's comments ("Joe Montana didn't need to cheat", "lost all respect for Brady", etc) yesterday were really stupid as well.

Another double standard, I'm not seeing much outcry over the Falcons blaring extra stadium noise. It's being reported, being discussed some, but definitely not generating the backlash deflate gate did. I think it can easily be argued that blaring crowd noise/supplemented by speakers would have a greater effect on games than deflated balls. If you neutralize the line's ability to hear their protection audibles, the QB's ability to audiblize, or even clearly hear his helmet speaker, it's going to greatly hinder an offense.

I agree 100%...crowd noise would absolutely be a bigger deterrent than some minute deflated balls.

[Tabe]

Of course you're not seeing much about the Falcons, it's success that breeds contempt, not mediocrity.
Same reason you don't hear much about the Broncos getting busted taping opponents in 2010 - three years after the Patriots got busted for Spygate.

[itjclarke]

I agree 100%...crowd noise would absolutely be a bigger deterrent than some minute deflated balls.

Yeah, just see Seattle now, or NO & KC in their heyday. The last play of the Steelers at Denver playoff game in 1989 always stands out in my mind too as an example of how crowd noise effects an O... a confused center snapping before Bubby Brister is ready, game over.

Hilarious. A bunch of bitter retired players whose legacies are feeling a little threatened by the Patriots' accomplishments. And don't get me wrong, I think Jerry Rice is the greatest NFL player of all-time.

It pains me to say this since I grew up worshipping those 80's-90's Niners teams were , but I totally agree. I think Rice has handled retirement a little better than Jordon, but think the two of them were similar. They were both the best in the game during the times they played (maybe all time), worked harder than anyone when they played, resented those who weren't as obsessed and fully consumed by the sport and competition, and then I think I think had no idea what to do once they retired. At least Rice got to win Dancing with the Stars, but I think he's got a lot of pent up competitive angst otherwise. Very interested to see how Kobe does in retirement.

Since they were greats, their opinions often seem to carry more weight than perhaps they should.. but being in the HOF doesn't mean you will objective, and immune to bitterness and jealousy.

Of course you're not seeing much about the Falcons, it's success that breeds contempt, not mediocrity.

Absolutely the case here. Don't wanna bring up talk about the haters again, but there was definitely a lot of that going on during deflate gate... and think it's still going on with all these sniping comments by former players. The media is savvy enough to pick up on how widespread this sentiment was (twitter, chatrooms, comments to stories on their own websites), adjust their content accordingly, and fan the flames further. I watch CBS news pretty regularly and COULD NOT believe they lead two consecutive broadcasts with deflate gate, when there's an intensifying war in Ukraine, as well as any number of other "lead" stories. Gotta think there was some serious behind the scenes arguing going on at some of these news outlets during this story (the true newsmen vs the ratings honks).

[PM770]

Same reason you don't hear much about the Broncos getting busted taping opponents in 2010 - three years after the Patriots got busted for Spygate.

I wonder what the 2010 Broncos head coach is doing now? :D

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm not sure what to make of this, but it does sound pretty strange, right? Thoughts?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12340408/new-england-patriots-employee-gave-unapproved-ball-official-lines-reports

"Yette found it surprising that the officials' locker room attendant was on the field, trying to hand him a ball, because officials' locker room attendants don't typically have ballhandling responsibilities during NFL games."

[Runscott]

David, that doesn't make sense. The 'K' balls have the letter 'K' and a numeral hand-written on them with black marker (for non-Championship games they are pre-stamped). The first ball used is 'K 1' and for the last two NFC championship games, 'K 1' lasted deep into the 2nd half ('K 1' was still in use for the fumbled on-side kick in this year's game). There's a reason for that - both teams' kickers, punters and snappers prefer to use the same ball as long as possible, as it continues to get worked in and they are all used to handling it.

If a 'K' ball that was not one of the original 16 were given to the K-Ball Coordinator, it wouldn't matter, as the special teams players know which ball is being used in the game, and they are going to demand it. Once it's no longer in play, 'K 2' is used. There is no way a stray K ball will get introduced into the game.