Trimming - How common?

[STL1944]

Hi All,


I think I might have just learned my first expensive lesson of the hobby (and feel pretty stupid to boot). Back in October I purchased a raw 1953 Bowman Color Stan Musial. The card came in and is beautiful. I stored it away planning on getting it graded later with a larger lot.

About a week ago I saw a posting on this forum about a seller on Ebay that was potentially modifying their cards and photos. My heart sank as it was the same seller that I purchased my Musial from. Sure enough I measured it this evening and it appears to be 1/16" short (see scan below).

I have reached out to the seller to see if I can still return the card. We shall see but I am not hopeful.

My question for the group is:

1) Is 1/16" inside of the normal variation of 1953 Bowmans?
2) How common is trimming in our hobby? (I am clueless here)
3) Outside of buying graded cards (and cards from folks here), how do you protect to yourself from trimmed cards? Should I be measuring every card I buy?



Here is the picture: Trimmed or not trimmed?

175500


Oh, and I guess this means that I am back in the market for a great condition 1953 Bowman Musial....

[almostdone]

My guess at first glance is that is trimmed and I believe it would came back as such if submitted. You can tell from the amount of border left on top compared to the bottom. If it was just miscut the top would have much more showing but as you can see from the scan the top is close to be same in diameter as the sides.
As far as how prevalent within the hobby my opinion is it isn't happening as often as it used to before TPG's. I think it was easier to pull the wool over buyers eyes 20 or so years ago. The internet has given every on the ability to quick look up a card to see different examples in different grades instantly. I remember only knowing what a card might look like from a grainy photo in a collecting magazine.
People at more wise to it too. That's not to say there are not still those dong it I just think it's as common of practice as it used to be. However, all the cards that were trimmed before are still out there somewhere so they will surface. It's just a matter of time.
I'm sorry about your experience. I hope the seller steps up and offers a refund. That is such a classic beauty if a card I would hate to think every time you think of it you have a bad taste in your mouth instead of seeing the card for how it was intended.
Best of luck,
Drew

[quitcrab]

If it's a 1/16 short its trimmed... Just my guess

[JollyElm]

A couple of months ago I bought a card off of ebay that seemed like it could be trimmed. So before I pulled the trigger, I sent the seller a simple question asking if the card measured out correctly. He replied that he measured it himself and it was perfect. When I received the card, it was trimmed both ways, top to bottom AND side to side. That's why it didn't look so blatant on screen, because it was still rather proportional. I frickin' lost my mind on this idiot. He blatantly lied when he told me it measured out perfectly and he had the f_cking nerve to call me a liar to boot. That I was trying to rip him off and get this measly $5 card for free. I opened a case on ebay and provided them with a picture of the card atop a ruler along with his reply to me stating the card measured out correctly and it took ebay like 7 minutes to find in my favor and refund my money.

It may be too late for you to do the same thing, because a lot of time has elapsed, but if the seller refuses to give you a refund, you should definitely get on the phone with ebay and see if they will help.

Good luck!

[a761506]

The hobby is littered with unscrupulous people trying to make a quick buck, there are plenty of them. As collectors, it is up to us to decide how much risk we're willing to take. If you buy raw cards, you know in advance you are taking a risk that the card may have been altered. You were able to purchase the card for less than you'd have paid for a PSA graded version of the card in similar condition. You knew this prior to buying the card, for you easily could have purchased the Musial card already in a PSA holder in similar condition to the one you bought, you would have just paid a premium for it.

So, in my opinion, as a buyer in the wild-wild-west that is eBay, if you're buying raw cards off eBay and you receive a card you believe is trimmed... caveat emptor. And quite honestly, that's how it should be to provide even greater value and acceptance of PSA graded cards.

Who knows if the seller even knew it was trimmed, and if indeed it is, if they trimmed it themselves? While your Musial looks blatantly short, it's difficult to figure out who to point fingers at, so I think the easiest person to point at in such situations is right in the mirror.

[Econteachert205]

Because trimming was so common for so many years many cards are sold as good but were trimmed 2 or 3 owners ago. Of course some sellers are also just unscrupulous. As previously stated thanks to the tpg s there is less trimming going on right now, but I'm always wary of buying raw high end cards and check feedback and reputations. I also measure cards as soon as I get them just to be safe. Last time I got burnt was on a bazooka atg cobb because it was an unfamiliar issue size to me. It happens to most of us at one pointer another.

[refz]

I see serious buyers with jewler loops and scale rules. Question everything.

[STL1944]

The hobby is littered with unscrupulous people trying to make a quick buck, there are plenty of them. As collectors, it is up to us to decide how much risk we're willing to take. If you buy raw cards, you know in advance you are taking a risk that the card may have been altered. You were able to purchase the card for less than you'd have paid for a PSA graded version of the card in similar condition. You knew this prior to buying the card, for you easily could have purchased the Musial card already in a PSA holder in similar condition to the one you bought, you would have just paid a premium for it.

So, in my opinion, as a buyer in the wild-wild-west that is eBay, if you're buying raw cards off eBay and you receive a card you believe is trimmed... caveat emptor. And quite honestly, that's how it should be to provide even greater value and acceptance of PSA graded cards.

Who knows if the seller even knew it was trimmed, and if indeed it is, if they trimmed it themselves? While your Musial looks blatantly short, it's difficult to figure out who to point fingers at, so I think the easiest person to point at in such situations is right in the mirror.



Thank you for the thoughts.... I take responsibility for my naiveté...

[mybestbretts]

I have cards that I have owned for 25 or 30 years that I sent in to be graded
and found out that had been altered ,trimmed, colored, etc. I no longer buy expensive cards ungraded. I have one that measures right, is straight and I can't see where it was trimmed, but its come back twice. I broke it out of
a CTA case (remember them), so don't trust any grading company either.

[glynparson]

Can not honestly compare CTA to PSA or SGC. It is like expecting a yugo to perform as well as a Porsche or BMW. All companies have bad cards in their holders you just need to really worry about the ones where everything seems bad.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Having owned many '53 Bowman, I can tell you that there is definitely size variations in that set. Just because it's short does not mean it's trimmed. I would guess that it's not trimmed. Send it in.

[jchcollins]

I used to think it was ridiculous to have to seek out a card in a reputable graded holder even for mid or lesser-grade stuff, but if you are going for the pricier items and cannot hold the card in your hands before buying it, it's a prudent step. I once disgustedly got rid of a '55 Topps Clemente RC a week or so after purchasing it because something just looked odd about it and sure enough when I measured, it came up just a fraction short. On the other hand with grading you never can tell. I once had a beautiful E-90 Dockman Cy Young card that I sold online as trimmed because it clearly measured short by specs in the book. Less than 6 months later I saw the exact same card (I knew it was the one I had by the centering and other attributes) for sale under the flag of a well-known dealer on eBay, slabbed in a PSA 5 case. I could have kicked myself, but I guess sometimes in any business it's not what you know, but...

[the 'stache]

Jim, I am slowly collecting the '53 Bowman set in mid grade range (just the color cards, I'll eventually do the b&w because I want to complete the year, but those are quite a way down my "to do" list). So while I do not have a lot of them yet, I've handled enough to know there is some variance in size. It's not a large one, but I think what you're describing is well within the tolerance for that year. If you look at the number of '53 Bowman cards that are really off center, it shouldn't be surprising that there were some issues when the cards were cut.

Here's what I would do. Grab another '53 Bowman card, one that you feel comfortable using as a comparative point (preferably something graded). Get your trusty loupe, get a nice, bright led light, and look over the edges face on, and if not slabbed, side on, and then compare it to the card you have. The best way of defending yourself against trimming is not to measure alone (though that should be the first step), but to familiarize yourself with what a hand cut edge looks liked compared to a factory cut edge.

Get a straight edge. Do any if the edges look "wavy" compared to it? That's an indication that somebody may have taken an x-acto blade to it. It's not a guarantee, mind you, but it's a warning sign in a post WW II issued card to me.

Compare the cut of the control card to yours. When you look at it flat on, the card's edges should appear uniform. If there is a noticeable difference, check the other edges of the card against the control card.

I look at a card like a defense attorney looking to establish reasonable doubt. Any one factor alone might not by itself be proof of trimming. A short card could just be a factory miscut. But a short card with a wavy edge that looks different under a loupe, especially from the side view...yeah, that puppy would go back.

Whenever you're spending that kind of money (and as somebody who is actively shopping the Musial card in question, I know what it costs), you need to examine the card exhaustively, especially if you are buying ungraded. I feel comfortable with the set, but I still wouldn't buy a Musial, a Reese, Mantle, BBM, or a Snider, ungraded unless it's someone I have done business with in the past that really knows their stuff.

Please let us know what you decide to do, and if you send it in, what you get back. Good luck!

[Gmrson]

Working on my '66 Topps set at the National last year I bought a trimmed Clemente. I never thought it was something I had to look out for there. I learned a tough lesson months later when I put it in a magnetic and finally saw that it was trimmed quite a bit. It wasn't even the perfect card. From now on I'll carry a base Topps card just so I can compare every card I look at.

[vintagetoppsguy]

From now on I'll carry a base Topps card just so I can compare every card I look at.

That's a good start, but I also recommend buying a loupe and learning how to distinguish between a factory cut and a non-factory cut. A short card doesn’t always mean it’s trimmed.

[Gmrson]

That's a good start, but I also recommend buying a loupe and learning how to distinguish between a factory cut and a non-factory cut. A short card doesn’t always mean it’s trimmed.

I've got the loupe. Any suggestions on good info? I'll start by looking at the Clemente against other '66 cards.



The black in the right pic shows how the card is a little short L/R, but much more T/B.

[a761506]

Your 1966 Clemente looks like a factory miscut to me. It is highly unlikely that someone would purposely trim a card in that manner and try to pass it off as legitimate.

[Gmrson]

Your 1966 Clemente looks like a factory miscut to me. It is highly unlikely that someone would purposely trim a card in that manner and try to pass it off as legitimate.

Thanks for the input!

[vintagetoppsguy]

I've got the loupe. Any suggestions on good info? I'll start by looking at the Clemente against other '66 cards.

For me, I take a group of like cards (for this exercise I grabbed a stack of '62s) and put them all together and take my loupe and look at the sides. I'm looking at the grain of the cut. Is it consistent on all the cards? If you find one inconsistent, and the cards measures short, it just might be trimmed. I do this for all four sides of the cards.

This is also a good method to tell if cards have been re-colored - for example '71 Topps. The black marker or Sharpee will always bleed through to the edges and when you stack a group of them together and one of them has been recolored, that black in will stick out like a sore thumb from the others.

Edited: My picture is not the best in the world, but you get the idea. You can get a really good look with a loupe.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If you suspect the Clemente of being trimmed, pay close attention to the top border. If it is trimmed, that's where I suspect it will be.

Look at the bottom border of your card. See how the bottom border tilts upwards as you look at it from left to right? In other words, you have more bottom border on the right side of the card than you do on the left side of the card? Typically (but not always), when you see a border like the, the opposite border should have the same characteristic. In other words, the top border should slope slightly too. However, yours doesn't. It is straight across. That would concern me. I'm not saying it's trimmed, but that's where I would start to look if you suspect it of being trimmed.

Look at this Clemente on eBay. See how the bottom border slopes upwards from left to right. Then look at the top border and you can see the same slope(but in the opposite direction). In other words, the bottom of the card has more border on the right side of the card than it does on the left side of the card, but the top of the card has more border on the left side of the card than it does on the right. Make sense?

Now look at the two sides. See how the left border slopes? You have more border near the bottom than near the top. Now see how the right border slopes. It's just the opposite, you have more border on the top than on the bottom.

My point is, when one border slopes the opposite border should usually (again, not always) slope too.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTM4NFgxMTAy/z/y0oAAOxyzpdTjivh/$_57.JPG

[Gmrson]

If you suspect the Clemente of being trimmed, pay close attention to the top border. If it is trimmed, that's where I suspect it will be.

Look at the bottom border of your card. See how the bottom border tilts upwards as you look at it from left to right? In other words, you have more bottom border on the right side of the card than you do on the left side of the card? Typically (but not always), when you see a border like the, the opposite border should have the same characteristic. In other words, the top border should slope slightly too. However, yours doesn't. It is straight across. That would concern me. I'm not saying it's trimmed, but that's where I would start to look if you suspect it of being trimmed.

Look at this Clemente on eBay. See how the bottom border slopes upwards from left to right. Then look at the top border and you can see the same slope(but in the opposite direction). In other words, the bottom of the card has more border on the right side of the card than it does on the left side of the card, but the top of the card has more border on the left side of the card than it does on the right. Make sense?

Now look at the two sides. See how the left border slopes? You have more border near the bottom than near the top. Now see how the right border slopes. It's just the opposite, you have more border on the top than on the bottom.

My point is, when one border slopes the opposite border should usually (again, not always) slope too.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTM4NFgxMTAy/z/y0oAAOxyzpdTjivh/$_57.JPG

Thanks so much for the "education"! I only noticed the difference in the top and bottom "angle" cuts recently. I would have never thought about looking at the sides with a stack of the same year but when I did that with a loupe, I not only noticed a minor difference in the grain, I also saw the top of the card sloped down ever so slightly so the glossy front caught the light when looking at the top side in a stack of cards. I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge.

[begsu1013]

another quick tip to detect trimming is simply by running your finger along the edges. takes a little while, but take a older common card and trim one side. then run your finger along the factory edge and the newly trimmed edge. it's a very noticeable difference! the trimmed edge will definitely feel "smoother".

although, agreed with other folks. simply because the card is shorter doesn't necessarily mean it's been trimmed. a lot of time it's simply a factory miscut.

and if it's over the internet, always deal with someone that has a return policy.

[111gecko]

First off, never beat yourself up about trimmed cards. We have all bought them and will continue to do so as long as we collect. Unfortunately, it is part of the hobby. Many times collectors are unaware cards are trimmed. I agree with many of the comments that sizes vary on the cards so measuring isn't always the answer. For me, the easiest way to learn was to take a card from almost every year and trim just enough off of one side but leave it attached. I attached a photo. You can now look basically side by side with a true raw edge and a trimmed edge. It is amazing when you compare this way how different they actually are. Look under a loop and it is night and day. It takes a while, but pretty soon, you can pick them out pretty easily. Just my 2 cents..:)