T227 Series of Champions Enigma

[Marslife]

Hey All!

I am working on a lifetime project to complete this set. The cards were issued with Honest Long Cut and Miners Extra, from what I read they were included in scrap or chewing tobacco pouches and that is why they are hard to find in good condition. Looks like they were issued in 1912.

the back of the cards show a series of 25 in the set however only 24 have been identified (checklist below). I saw on the non sports side there have been some ATC ledgers showing date of issue and checklists of some other non sports T card sets.

Has anyone seen the same for this set?

Any guesses as to whom the 25th card is or was supposed to be?

thanks for any assistance!

Cliff

1912 Honest Long Cut & Miners Extra Tobacco (T227) - Series of Champions (24)

CARD NO. CARD NAME SPORT
1 BRUCE BROWN AUTO RACING
2 RALPH MULFORD AUTO RACING
3 C.P. RODGERS (CALBRAITH) AVIATION
4 HOME RUN BAKER BASEBALL
5 CHIEF BENDER BASEBALL
6 TY COBB BASEBALL
7 RICHARD MARQUARD BASEBALL
8 ALFRED DE ORO BILLIARDS
9 WILLIE HOPPE BILLIARDS
10 ABE ATELL BOXING
11 JOHNNY COULON BOXING
12 JACK JOHNSON BOXING
13 FRANK KLAUS BOXING
14 AD. WOLGAST BOXING
15 HAROLD HILTON GOLF
16 JACK MCDERMOTT GOLF
17 ESS H. KAY HORSE RACING
18 UHLAN HORSE RACING
19 DIXIE V BOATING
20 BUDD GOODWIN SWIMMING
21 W.J. KRAMER TRACK & FIELD
22 MATT MCGRATH TRACK & FIELD
23 MELVIN SHEPPARD TRACK & FIELD
24 C. ZBYSZKO WRESTLING

[swarmee]

Are you sure there are 25 cards? It's quite possible only 24 were made: 8x3 or 4x6 printing sheets would make sense, but then so would 5x5.
I see the writing says "25 Designs", but this was also the timeframe where some cards were omitted from being released/printed in order to get more sales for those chasing a complete set or attempting to redeem for a prize (box of chocolates/ice skates).
PSA has only graded 24 different cards, and you would think if anyone had the other, they would get it cataloged or added to the PSA registry.

http://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/composite.aspx?c=6066

PSA, FWIW, only counts this set as having 24 cards. 100% completion for 24 required items.

[buchner]

Charles Bray allowed me to photocopy his checklist back in the day and he had the same 24 on his checklist, but in the margin is written the name - Whelan (trotter). It looks more like my notation and not his. I don't have the card, and I can't remember where I came up with name. Hope this helps a little. John

[darwinbulldog]

Joe Jackson?

[caramelcard]

Hey Cliff,

There are other early non sports sets that advertise more cards than actually exist. E26 Menagerie comes to mind with Prairie Dog and Wild Boar on the back of the card, but not actually printed.

Although it's interesting what John posted above. If there is a 25th card out there, I'm sure it would be an obscure subject.

Good luck with your set.

Rob

[mybuddyinc]

I think they are one of the most beautiful set made. Great, unique images, and detailed write-ups on back. Coulon (boxer, Bantamweight champ 1908-14, 5'0", ~110 lbs.) is my favorite, is stunning in it's simplicity. The wild-smiling Mulford (last to win the off track races, Savannah, and first to win on track, Indy), is also a fav.

No expert, by far, but agree it's a 24 card set. Bruce Brown (auto) seems to be the hardest to find.

[Exhibitman]

Anyone got any of the blank back handcuts?

[dgyshcc]

Just discovered a near full set of t227 (23 of 24). Low grade but pretty neat. Multiples of some cards.

[Leon]

Just discovered a near full set of t227 (23 of 24). Low grade but pretty neat. Multiples of some cards.

That doesn't happen often!! Does it have a Cobby?

[Eggoman]

Although I do not have any T227s. Here's a couple of pictures of the package that they likely came in.

[dgyshcc]

I does. I pulled the Baseball players out of the box my grandfather gave me years ago and didn't know about the other sports.
I recently dug through the rest of the cards and discovered the non baseball cards that went with them!

[Marslife]

Hey Fellas!

Does anyone have a scan of the front of the following two cards that they could share? Hard to look for them if I don't know that they look like!!!

thanks for any help!

Looking for scans/photos of two cards from the set:

BRUCE BROWN

and

C.P. RODGERS

thanks!

Cliff

[mybuddyinc]

xx

[Steve D]

From Issue #10 of Old Cardboard Magazine:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/steved80/T227%20Complete%20Set_zpsuf97jr26.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/steved80/T227%20-%20CP%20Rodgers_zpsqqwe8gur.jpg


Steve

[Steve D]

Regarding the missing 25th card.....

The four baseball players in the set are Chief Bender, Rube Marquard, Frank Baker and Ty Cobb.

In 1911, Bender and Marquard let their respective leagues in win %. Cobb led the AL in batting average. Baker led the AL in homeruns. The NL homerun champion was Frank Schulte of the Cubs (not exactly a household name).

Here's where it gets interesting.

The NL batting champion in 1911 was none other than Honus Wagner. Could the missing 25th T227 card have been meant for him? It boggles the mind!!!!!


Steve

[Marslife]

Thanks for posting the photos! really appreciate it!
I could not find photos anywhere!

that would be awesome if the 25th card was destined to be a WAGNER!

good stuff!

thanks again for your help!

Cliff

[Marslife]

Thanks for posting the photos! really appreciate it!
I could not find photos anywhere!

that would be awesome if the 25th card was destined to be a WAGNER!

good stuff!

thanks again for your help!

Cliff

[Beansballcardblog]

I just found this thread as I was searching about the Ralph Mulford on Google. Curious to find out how your project is coming along.

-Kin

Hey All!

I am working on a lifetime project to complete this set. The cards were issued with Honest Long Cut and Miners Extra, from what I read they were included in scrap or chewing tobacco pouches and that is why they are hard to find in good condition. Looks like they were issued in 1912.

the back of the cards show a series of 25 in the set however only 24 have been identified (checklist below). I saw on the non sports side there have been some ATC ledgers showing date of issue and checklists of some other non sports T card sets.

Has anyone seen the same for this set?

Any guesses as to whom the 25th card is or was supposed to be?

thanks for any assistance!

Cliff

1912 Honest Long Cut & Miners Extra Tobacco (T227) - Series of Champions (24)

CARD NO. CARD NAME SPORT
1 BRUCE BROWN AUTO RACING
2 RALPH MULFORD AUTO RACING
3 C.P. RODGERS (CALBRAITH) AVIATION
4 HOME RUN BAKER BASEBALL
5 CHIEF BENDER BASEBALL
6 TY COBB BASEBALL
7 RICHARD MARQUARD BASEBALL
8 ALFRED DE ORO BILLIARDS
9 WILLIE HOPPE BILLIARDS
10 ABE ATELL BOXING
11 JOHNNY COULON BOXING
12 JACK JOHNSON BOXING
13 FRANK KLAUS BOXING
14 AD. WOLGAST BOXING
15 HAROLD HILTON GOLF
16 JACK MCDERMOTT GOLF
17 ESS H. KAY HORSE RACING
18 UHLAN HORSE RACING
19 DIXIE V BOATING
20 BUDD GOODWIN SWIMMING
21 W.J. KRAMER TRACK & FIELD
22 MATT MCGRATH TRACK & FIELD
23 MELVIN SHEPPARD TRACK & FIELD
24 C. ZBYSZKO WRESTLING

[Yoda]

Perhaps one of my saddest collecting days, although I didn't know it at the time, was when I sold my T227 Cobb PSA 6 for an embarrassing small amount, and if that wasn't bad enough I also sold the PSA 7 Baker, now up in the REA auction, for a likewise relative pittance. That card, I must say, is in a league of its own in such a condition sensitive issue not only among the 4 ballplayers but the entire set. Not sure if I am going to try to recapture it, but who knows.

[Beansballcardblog]

When did you sell them? Based on context, I'm assuming before the "boom" in the prices of vintage graded sales over the last 2-3 years.

Perhaps one of my saddest collecting days, although I didn't know it at the time, was when I sold my T227 Cobb PSA 6 for an embarrassing small amount, and if that wasn't bad enough I also sold the PSA 7 Baker, now up in the REA auction, for a likewise relative pittance. That card, I must say, is in a league of its own in such a condition sensitive issue not only among the 4 ballplayers but the entire set. Not sure if I am going to try to recapture it, but who knows.

[Yoda]

Sold them in 2005 after I had moved to London and closed down Full Count. I consigned them to long-time friend Kevin Struss, who was then at Mastro's. where they were eventually auctioned off.

[Marslife]

Hey Kin,

thanks for the post, I am doing well on my set quest, now down to needing two cards:

CARD NO. CARD NAME SPORT
1 BRUCE BROWN AUTO RACING
3 C.P. RODGERS (CALBRAITH) AVIATION

These are hard to find. I'll be heading to the National to see if I can dig these up. If anyone has them and willing to sell, LET ME KNOW!

super set, scored a nice Cobby from a fellow member.

two more to go! no updates on the "missing" 25th card yet.

TTYL!

Cliff

[RCMcKenzie]

I have not seen a Rodgers or Brown offered for sale in the few years that I have followed the t227 set. I'm currently at 16/24

[Steve D]

Perhaps one of my saddest collecting days, although I didn't know it at the time, was when I sold my T227 Cobb PSA 6 for an embarrassing small amount, and if that wasn't bad enough I also sold the PSA 7 Baker, now up in the REA auction, for a likewise relative pittance. That card, I must say, is in a league of its own in such a condition sensitive issue not only among the 4 ballplayers but the entire set. Not sure if I am going to try to recapture it, but who knows.



I did the exact same thing with my Cobb in 1991. It would probably have graded a 1 or 2, but it had great eye-appeal. I've been looking for a replacement for several years now, but haven't been able to land it :(

Regarding the CP Rodgers card; I've been looking for one of them for several years also, as I collect aviator cards. I have yet to see even one card for sale anywhere.

Steve

[ezez420]

I was fortunate enough to get the Brown in a collection and Rodgers in a trade with HLC backs. The other Rodgers I know about is an HLC. However, I do not know if there is a Miners Extra Brown and Rodgers that exist.

[Beansballcardblog]

It's definitely disconcerting to find that the Brown is so difficult to find and that y'all need it for the set. It's one of only two cards in the set I want to acquire and it's now obvious that if/when one comes available, it's going to go for much more than any of us would like to pay.


I was fortunate enough to get the Brown in a collection and Rodgers in a trade with HLC backs. The other Rodgers I know about is an HLC. However, I do not know if there is a Miners Extra Brown and Rodgers that exist.

[iowadoc77]

Hey Leon, I like your Cobb. Matches mine quite nicely. From the national last year from Roger Burns. Purchased 5 minutes after I had thrown my hands up and given up on finding one of these.

https://sportscardalbum.com/c/13038j08.jpg (https://sportscardalbum.com/card/13038j08)

[rjackson44]

yoda don't feel bad we all have done crazy things ,,at least you can say you owned them at one time ,,,ive done some pretty crazy deals too .best octavio

[Beansballcardblog]

It's the card version of "better to have loved and lost than never loved at all."


yoda don't feel bad we all have done crazy things ,,at least you can say you owned them at one time ,,,ive done some pretty crazy deals too .best octavio

[Exhibitman]

That is interesting re the two seeming SPs. I know that T220 silver border has a pair of notorious SPs, Mike Donovan Today and Jas. J. Corbett, and I've long thought that there was some sort of chase or price component to the shortage that has been lost to time. Perhaps the same is true of T227?

[Beansballcardblog]

Perhaps Bruce Brown bought up all of his copies???

Conspiracy theory and I'm sure incorrect...

I'm listening to a very old episode of "The Talk of Gasoline Alley" with Donald Davidson and he mentioned that when (David) Bruce-Brown's estate was settled in 1914 that he recalls it was worth about 1.3M.

That's a lot of money for 1912 (when he was killed in an accident).

Didn't know if some might like the little nugget of knowledge.

[Steve D]

That is interesting re the two seeming SPs. I know that T220 silver border has a pair of notorious SPs, Mike Donovan Today and Jas. J. Corbett, and I've long thought that there was some sort of chase or price component to the shortage that has been lost to time. Perhaps the same is true of T227?


It appears, after seeing wvu's post (#31), that the shortage of the Brown and Rodgers cards could be attributable to their premature deaths. Rodgers was killed Apr 3, 1912, and Brown was killed Nov 1, 1912.


Steve

[Beansballcardblog]

Nice call, Steve! I didn't think about anything like that. It has to be more than coincidence.

I'm only up to four so far, but I'm working on the T36 set and it also includes Brown. It's a 1910 set though, which is among the reasons I'll give for not thinking of that haha.

-kin


It appears, after seeing wvu's post (#31), that the shortage of the Brown and Rodgers cards could be attributable to their premature deaths. Rodgers was killed Apr 3, 1912, and Brown was killed Nov 1, 1912.


Steve

[Marslife]

I was recently in Indianapolis, there was talk of the 100th running of Indy and Bruce Brown winning early on.

229933

Bruce-Brown and his mechanic Tony Scudelari, shortly before they were killed in a practice accident at the 1912 American Grand Prize.

[Beansballcardblog]

Very possible, he finished third in the inaugural race. Ralph Mulford finished second. Brown and Mulford are both in the T36 and T227 sets, while winner Ray Harroun wasn't in either.

The sixth place finisher in the inaugural race was Ralph DePalma, who is in the T36 set. He would win the 500 in 1915.

The wifey and I are headed up to Indianapolis this month for the 100th running of the 500. I've been waiting for this for years!

-Kin

I was recently in Indianapolis, there was talk of the 100th running of Indy and Bruce Brown winning early on.

229933

Bruce-Brown and his mechanic Tony Scudelari, shortly before they were killed in a practice accident at the 1912 American Grand Prize.

[Marslife]

Very possible, he finished third in the inaugural race. Ralph Mulford finished second. Brown and Mulford are both in the T36 and T227 sets, while winner Ray Harroun wasn't in either.


Good stuff Kin! have a good time out there. from the pre race practice sessions and media coverage sounds like it will be quite a party at the race, have fun!

Maybe the missing 25th card was/is/shouldve been Ray Harroun?

Good theory on the deaths of Rodgers and Brown, perhaps the cards are short prints if ATC pulled or did not release more of their cards after the deaths?

[Baseball Rarities]

[HTML]Good theory on the deaths of Rodgers and Brown, perhaps the cards are short prints if ATC pulled or did not release more of their cards after the deaths?

FWIW, the card of Rodgers mentions his death on the back - April 3, 1912.

[Beansballcardblog]

Ah did not know that. I'm into the auto drivers and hadn't looked at any of the others. If nothing else, this narrows down the production dates . Or, are the dates something that's already known?

FWIW, the card of Rodgers mentions his death on the back - April 3, 1912.

[Baseball Rarities]

If nothing else, this narrows down the production dates . Or, are the dates something that's already known?

I had it broken down at one time, but I cannot find my notes.

But, just from card of Bruce Brown, it can be determined that the set was issued after June 25, 1912 (date of the mentioned French Grand Prix) and the date of his death - October 1, 1912 (not mentioned).

I am assuming that his card was issued before his death or else they would have mentioned that on the card's reverse as they did with Rodgers.

[Marslife]

Hey Fellas!

after a long exhaustive search, I snagged a Rodgers! Had to "pay up" but happily Got One!

It has an Honest Long Cut back....

bit of a miscut with a sliver of another subject on the edge...

That makes 23/24 one more to go for a full HLC backed set!

TTYL!

Cliff

352288

[dgyshcc]

Spring Robert Edwards Auction has both a Rodgers and a Brown T227 up for auction

[Beansballcardblog]

The Brown?

HOLY CRAP ON A CRACKER!

Spring Robert Edwards Auction has both a Rodgers and a Brown T227 up for auction

[Marslife]

just ran across this: David Loney Bruce-Brown's great Grandfather was J.P. Lorrilard! Perhaps this has something to do with the short print?

here is a link to the .pdf:

https://www.firstsuperspeedway.com/sites/default/files/David%20Bruce%20Brown-compressed.pdf

[G1911]

Whether causation or coincidence, that is a very interesting discovery!



I have wondered if we have it flipped upside down, and Rodgers and Brown were not removed but rather were late additions.

The latest date on any other card is December 1, 1911 on Abe Attell. Most of the biographies end in mid-late 1911, with only a couple exceptions (like Jack Johnson not going past July 4, 1910, a remnant of hijacking his T218/9 write-ups).

Rodgers card mentions his death in April of 1912 (thus, he clearly wasn't pulled because he died - they knew that before even finalizing his card). The last race mentioned on the back of Brown's card was in June of 1912, placing these several months after all of the other subjects biographies ends. It seems off to me, unlikely these two were available at the very beginning of production and quickly pulled. That's a very long lead time.

[Kidnapped18]

Does anyone has a list of PSA certs that designates backs? (ie HLC or ME)
If so please share email or pm what you have on each subject
I've begun a list and was wondering if one already exists
Here is what I have on Attell:

Abe Attell (Pugilist) (31) 19 out of 31
PSA 5 (1)
(1) - #11051512 (Honest LONG CUT) (#3)

PSA 4.5 (1)
(2) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA) (#1)

PSA 4 (1)
(3) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)

PSA 3 (3)
(4) - #23373926 (MINERS EXTRA)
(5) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA) (Mark’s T227’s)
(6) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)

PSA 3Q (1)
(7) - #23373927 (MK) (MINERS EXTRA)

PSA 2.5 (1)
(8) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA) (RAS)

PSA 2 (8)
(9) - #04541013 (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA) (PRIVATE)
(10) - #14148594 (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(11) - #20515533 (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(12) - #40871327 (MINERS EXTRA)
(13) - #52025305 (Honest LONG CUT)
(14) - #77675359 (Honest LONG CUT)
(15) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(16) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)

PSA 1.5 (3)
(17) - #23101203 (Honest LONG CUT)
(18) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(19) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)

PSA 1 (8)
(20) - #15116672 (Honest LONG CUT) (#6)
(21) - #15815830 (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(22) - #20948928 (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(23) - #21369562 (MINERS EXTRA) (#4)
(24) - #23042722 (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(25) - #24654836 (MINERS EXTRA) #8
(26) - #65251135 (Honest LONG CUT)
(27) - #71111148 (Honest LONG CUT)
(28) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)
(29) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)

PSA 1Q (2)
(30) - #08191719 (MK)( MINERS EXTRA) (PRIVATE)
(31) - # (Honest LONG CUT/MINERS EXTRA)

[Marslife]

Yes! there is hope for new finds :-)

found by my T227 buddy Todd March:

617936

[Leon]

Yes! there is hope for new finds :-)

found by my T227 buddy Todd March:

617936


Nice. There is still quite a bit out there!
.