Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[lancemountain]

I purchased 7 cards from Probstein on the 10th of December. They were all from a modern set and clearly from the same consigner as they all were the same player, same set and very low serial numbered.


I won all 7, two for a very low price and the other 5 for about market average. I paid not thinking too much about it. Fair play-service and shipping was quick and Probstein had delivered my cards in a few short days. It needed a signature and was returned to my main HUB and it took a sweek for me to retrieve the package. Cards were packed well and were in good shape.

As I was entering my new cards into spreadsheets (date acquired, price paid, ect...I do enjoy this part) I poked through and low and behold I was shilled. The bidder o***l with 11 feedback. This person has 100% bidding activity with the seller. Every bid was on these cards within the last few minutes.



30-Day Summary
Total bids: 10
Items bid on: 5
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 4 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 3 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 2 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 2 Seller 1 <1h
Sports Mem, Cards & Fan Shop > Baseball 1 Seller 1 <1h


So I contact Probstein and explained in a well thought out and polite email that these cards were clearly shilled. I was hopeful that he had not paid the consigner the fees yet and we could reach an agreement. He replied with this:

hi, best thing it to contact ebay trust and safety and let them determine if anything happened
thanks
rick

He knew darn well I would run into a big, fat wall.

I called them, I emailed them, I reported the auctions, I waited on hold with them, I spoke with eBay employees that I could literally just barely understand a word they were saying. eBay customer service is basically useless and so I resigned myself to that there would be no recourse.

Well the only recourse left would be to leave appropriate feedback, right?

Well the last kick in the teeth was all the negatives have been removed.


Probstein makes eBay a lot of money...as long as he says he's against shilling it's good enough for them. FWIW I was shilled for $62.00

Ter.ry Lew.is

[ullmandds]

Sorry to hear you fell victim to Probsteins well documented shilling...I'd say a $62 lesson could have been much worse!

[bnorth]

I purchased 7 cards from Probstein on the 10th of December. They were all from a modern set and clearly from the same consigner as they all were the same player, same set and very low serial numbered.


I won all 7, two for a very low price and the other 5 for about market average. I paid not thinking too much about it. Fair play-service and shipping was quick and Probstein had delivered my cards in a few short days. It needed a signature and was returned to my main HUB and it took a sweek for me to retrieve the package. Cards were packed well and were in good shape.

As I was entering my new cards into spreadsheets (date acquired, price paid, ect...I do enjoy this part) I poked through and low and behold I was shilled. The bidder o***l with 11 feedback. This person has 100% bidding activity with the seller. Every bid was on these cards within the last few minutes.



So I contact Probstein and explained in a well thought out and polite email that these cards were clearly shilled. I was hopeful that he had not paid the consigner the fees yet and we could reach an agreement. He replied with this:



He knew darn well I would run into a big, fat wall.

I called them, I emailed them, I reported the auctions, I waited on hold with them, I spoke with eBay employees that I could literally just barely understand a word they were saying. eBay customer service is basically useless and so I resigned myself to that there would be no recourse.

Well the only recourse left would be to leave appropriate feedback, right?

Well the last kick in the teeth was all the negatives have been removed.


Probstein makes eBay a lot of money...as long as he says he's against shilling it's good enough for them. FWIW I was shilled for $62.00

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

[lancemountain]

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

I agree with you 100%

I was unaware of how institutional it really was and that is why I have posted this thread. I will never bid on a Probstein card ever again

[CMIZ5290]

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

Ben- Well said my friend. These threads go back to when Moby Dick was a minnow. Hello!, dont bid on his freaking auctions!!

[Kenny Cole]

With all the problems associated with Problemstien I am at the point that I blame the problem 100% on anybody stupid enough to bid on his auctions. JMHO

I would guess that a large percentage of his buyers aren't members of this forum and thus have no idea that there's a problem. I actually threw a bid in on a card last week, didn't get shilled. Got it for less than market value. That happens occasionally.

[BlueDevil89]

Mention that you intend to document the incident and file a complaint report with your state's district attorney's office. ebay will connect you to a manager and you should get some satisfaction then, depending on how your wish to resolve the matter.

[dclarkraiders]

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay. If I win great. If I lose, I'll get the card from other sellers, sources, etc. I understand your angst but $62.00 is a small price to pay for a lesson learned. Good luck in your future collecting endeavors.

Duane Clark

[lancemountain]

Mention that you intend to document the incident and file a complaint report with your state's district attorney's office. ebay will connect you to a manager and you should get some satisfaction then, depending on how your wish to resolve the matter.

I would exhaust every avenue to nail this guy, believe me. It's not the $62, it is the principle and I am willing to stand up to this crook.

The problem is I can't get on the phone with someone to make this threat!

[drcy]

"I can assure you, doctor, that I can make things unpleasant for you and your staff, if you have one."-- Kramer

[drcy]

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay.

To achieve the same result, if you aren't shilled in an auction do you flush a $20 bill down the toilet? Most collectors would prefer to keep the $20 and use it towards purchasing something else. Let's just hope that by 'homework' you don't mean following past shilled auction results.

[lancemountain]

Let's just hope that by 'homework' you don't mean following past shilled auction results.

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem

[1952boyntoncollector]

just bid under market value like guys keep saying...........

[slipk1068]

just bid under market value like guys keep saying...........

I suspect this may get interesting.

[lancemountain]

I suspect this may get interesting.

How so? Not sure what last two post mean or allude too.....

[slipk1068]

A couple posts seem to imply that fraud is ok as long as I keep my bids less than market value. No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

[autocentral]

I try to avoid his auctions as much as possible because of this problem but occasionally I get suckered into bidding. Sometimes it works out without a problem other times you can tell something isn't right. I personally try to set a limit on what I'm willing to pay for a card and not even look at the bidding history if I win the card for lower than my set limit just to avoid any problems. Sure some may say you are still feeding into the fraud of the auction by willing to pay more because someone is shilling but at the end of the day Im happy if I won for lower than my limit.

The ebay seller could really care less about the shilling going on because he profits from it and so does ebay. At the end of the day either bid with caution and a limit or just don't bid on any of his auctions anymore.

-Nick

[christopher.herman]

No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

Agreed. I stopped bidding in Probstein auctions years ago. Even if you set a limit and get the item for that amount or less, you still lose money due to shilling and ultimately become part of the problem.

[sports-rings]

I would exhaust every avenue to nail this guy, believe me. It's not the $62, it is the principle and I am willing to stand up to this crook.

The problem is I can't get on the phone with someone to make this threat!


If that's the way you feel do what I do. And I've never lost a single dollar:

I pay with paypal using my American Express card. When I have a problem, I go directly to American express, not paypal or Ebay. Occasionally American express will ask why I don't go to paypal or Ebay and I tell them that the American Express customer service is responsive and it's difficult or impossible to get an Ebay or a paypal rep on the phone.

American express places a hold on the money through Paypal and then Paypal freezes the money or takes the money from the sellers bank account. (Not sure how Paypal is allowed to do this but they do).

You would be surprised how much more helpful and willing to work out a problem the seller becomes when he no longer has your money and needs to resolve this.

American Express has an investigation process and most of the time they claim they don't receive the proper paperwork from the seller and therefore they often close their investigation and reward you a refund. In the event the seller does supply paperwork, American Express still gets you a refund.

Like I said before, I have never lost a case using this method.

[thenextlevel]

You cannot police it. Some auctions that may seem shilled, may actually be legitimate auctions. You can never prove this. Like others have said, just don't bid on his auctions, or if you do, have a firm price that you want to pay(possible using completed auction comparables).

[ALR-bishop]

I go into any auction believing the seller has a price below which he does not want to sell the card, or a price he wants to get for the card. He may do it with a BIN, a reserve, a high opener, or by shilling. While the ethics of those methods obviously vary, I do not see it mattering in the end to me. On ebay, or in a house auction I set a snipe or place a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, and that 's it. If I lose, I lose. if I win I don't check the bid history unless I later get a 2nd chance offer. I never pay more than what I thought the card was worth to me

[bnorth]

I go into any auction believing the seller has a price below which he does not want to sell the card, or a price he wants to get for the card. He may do it with a BIN, a reserve, a high opener, or by shilling. While the ethics of those methods obviously vary, I do not see it mattering in the end to me. On ebay, or in a house auction I set a snipe or place a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, and that 's it. If I lose, I lose. if I win I don't check the bid history unless I later get a 2nd chance offer. I never pay more than what I thought the card was worth to me

I understand your view on this. I used it to buy the only item I ever purchased from Problemstein. That was about 6 months ago and every time I see it I wish I had spent the extra $40 and bought it from someone else.

Blue 58 Topps Hank Aarons are selling at all time highs. I can get you one at a slight discount, any interest?;)

[Mrc32]

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem


No it isn't. It isn't Probstein's problem. He keeps getting record prices.
It isn't ebay's problem. They keep getting more fees.

[Jewish-collector]

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

[bnorth]

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Because the amount you bid could be influenced by previously shilled auctions making the current market price inflated from the shilling.

[Leon]

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

[Jewish-collector]

Now I understand. Thanks. :eek:

[thenextlevel]

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

[nolemmings]

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

[Leon]

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

[Karl Mattson]

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

[thenextlevel]

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

That really wasn't my point. I was giving you a counter to your example, which I think is fairly logical, no?

[Leon]

That really wasn't my point. I was giving you a counter to your example, which I think is fairly logical, no?

Oh yeah, it's logical and I understand the comments about the fraud being a reserve. I get it.

ps...I should add almost all of my comments aren't pertaining to Probstein, they are how I feel about shill bidding.

If the sales venue has that shill bidding IS allowed in their sales, then I guess I have no issue with it. But that isn't the way most sales venues in our hobby operate.

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

[glchen]

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

[thenextlevel]

Oh yeah, it's logical and I understand the comments about the fraud being a reserve. I get it.

ps...I should add almost all of my comments aren't pertaining to Probstein, they are how I feel about shill bidding.

If the sales venue has that shill bidding IS allowed in their sales, then I guess I have no issue with it. But that isn't the way most sales venues in our hobby operate.

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

I am not a fan of shill bidding either, but any card or item sold on eBay/auction site has the same chance of being shilled, as an item by Probstein. You can say any cards sales data are fraudulent. He takes the brunt, because he is a big target, but a lot of people complaining about his auctions, have probably been shilled on other seller's auctions, and they don't even know it. This brings me back to my point of being an educated bidder, which to me makes shilling an afterthought.

[Runscott]

Regarding ANY crooked seller…

Interesting that when these discussions take place there is always an argument that it is okay to support a crooked seller, as long as you are paying what you consider to be a fair price. Then it devolves into examples of where a lower than 'fair' price was paid for something, which by some twisted logic indicates that, because not ALL of the seller's auctions are shilled, NONE of them are shilled. If you want to support a crooked seller, just support the guy, but don't make excuses as to why it is okay, because it isn't.

[tschock]

and from my good friend wiki- so we are on the same page-

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

.

Leon,

IMO, you cut short the crux of the matter.

"Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the potential for fraud and damage; however if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz," the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience," is a type of legal shill."

[thenextlevel]

Regarding ANY crooked seller…

Interesting that when these discussions take place there is always an argument that it is okay to support a crooked seller, as long as you are paying what you consider to be a fair price. Then it devolves into examples of where a lower than 'fair' price was paid for something, which by some twisted logic indicates that, because not ALL of the seller's auctions are shilled, NONE of them are shilled. If you want to support a crooked seller, just support the guy, but don't make excuses as to why it is okay, because it isn't.

Not once did I say shilling is ok. I just don't let it affect me buying baseball cards, bc I pay what I am willing to pay. People having problems with particular sellers have the freedom to either buy from someone else or don't blow money on cards.

[vintagetoppsguy]

You cannot police it. Some auctions that may seem shilled, may actually be legitimate auctions. You can never prove this. Like others have said, just don't bid on his auctions, or if you do, have a firm price that you want to pay(possible using completed auction comparables).

So if your belief is ‘only bid up to what you’re willing to spend’, then let me ask you this. Let’s say you budget $250 a month for your electric bill and it's consistently under that amount. However, you find out that the meter reader has been misreading it for months, and not in your favor. Does it bother you enough to do something about it, or do you just keep stroking that check every month and tell yourself, "Well, at least it’s under my monthly budget”?

[Leon]

Leon,

IMO, you cut short the crux of the matter.

"Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the potential for fraud and damage; however if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz," the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience," is a type of legal shill."

Actually that is exactly the crux of the matter. The crux is that without a shill the buyer IS at risk of paying more and will therefore lose. I agree there needs to be a victim and there is one, the buyer.

And like I said, I am aware of some instances outside of our hobby where shilling is permitted and done all of the time. So be it and forewarned is fair-warned.

IF we all want to applaud for him, nah, no harm done.

[mybuddyinc]

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay. If I win great. If I lose, I'll get the card from other sellers, sources, etc. I understand your angst but $62.00 is a small price to pay for a lesson learned. Good luck in your future collecting endeavors.

Duane Clark


Agree 100%, other than I've only won one of his auction. It was for a lesser known 1921 Zbyszko Exhibit. I was willing to pay $100 for it (tough wrestler), but I knew I would be probably shilled up to that. So I sniped at 50 something and won, happy. If I lost, no big deal, I'd rather wait and even pay a bit more down the line.

Secondly, GREAT for him (sarcastically, of course) for shilling OP out of $62 !!!!! Hope it's worth losing a customer that might potentially spend hundreds in the future !!!!

[D. Bergin]

Alright, I'll be the elephant in the room here. The guy has only bid on 5 items in the last month........he has zero bid retractions in the last 6 months.

Is the 100% figure (on 5 items) the only evidence you have that this guy is an actual shill?

Is there a prior history of Probstein selling these exact same cards, that somebody else might have won, prior to your winning them?

Could it actually be that he saw a card from a set he was looking for and threw in his obligatory few bids for the month?

.....another possibility, and I've heard of several OCD type collectors who do this. He may have already had the card, but saw it was going for a low price and raised the ceiling on them, figuring he was protecting the market. If he wins, no biggy, it's a card he likes anyways.......if he loses, no biggy, he thinks he kept the market from crashing on a card he likes.

[Runscott]

Thenextlevel - every time you bid in an auction run by a crooked seller, you are saying "shilling is okay".

[tschock]

So if your belief is ‘only bid up to what you’re willing to spend’, then let me ask you this. Let’s say you budget $250 a month for your electric bill and it's consistently under that amount. However, you find out that the meter reader has been misreading it for months, and not in your favor. Does it bother you enough to do something about it, or do you just keep stroking that check every month and tell yourself, "Well, at least it’s under my monthly budget”?

Or how many with the same belief would INSIST on paying market price to someone who KNOWINGLY provides the item at a discount? "Please, take my extra $50 since VCP says you are giving it to me below market price."

Personally I think those that don't have a problem with shilling fall into 2 categories. Those trying to justify that it doesn't matter (the "market price" crowd), and those that don't care (the "don't worry, be happy" crowd).

[Runscott]

That reminds me of today's article on rent increases - renters cry when rent increases to approach market value, but demand a decrease when market value for rentals drops.

[packs]

In my opinion hidden reserves are bogus. If you want to put a reserve on your item, then put a reserve on it. Bidding on your own items to hit some hidden reserve is lame.

I will not bid on some items if there is a reserve. It has nothing to do with what I'm willing to pay. I'm not willing to play that game at all. So if someone has a hidden reserve, that to me is a misrepresentation. Some people call that a lie, others a hidden truth. Either way I don't want to be involved and failing to be upfront about it is not cool in my opinion, regardless of what I'm willing to pay.

[VoodooChild]

Please excuse my ignorance on this, but where does current card market price come from and where did it come from before the internet/ebay?

Even though I assume every ebay auction is shilled, it appears to me that the sold listings set the market price. I've won cards from respected auction houses that advertise here and have paid around what they have sold for on ebay. So what am I supposed to do? Where do I buy cards for prices that are not affected by ebay shills? Even cards I buy here on the BST are not that much cheaper than ebay sold listing prices minus the ebay/paypal fee percentages.

[tschock]

Actually that is exactly the crux of the matter. The crux is that without a shill the buyer IS at risk of paying more and will therefore lose. I agree there needs to be a victim and there is one, the buyer.

And like I said, I am aware of some instances outside of our hobby where shilling is permitted and done all of the time. So be it and forewarned is fair-warned.

IF we all want to applaud for him, nah, no harm done.

Sorry, poorly worded on my part. I realized you knew that. Just (for others) that it is illegal in many jurisdictions and there is a reason for that.

[thenextlevel]

So if your belief is ‘only bid up to what you’re willing to spend’, then let me ask you this. Let’s say you budget $250 a month for your electric bill and it's consistently under that amount. However, you find out that the meter reader has been misreading it for months, and not in your favor. Does it bother you enough to do something about it, or do you just keep stroking that check every month and tell yourself, "Well, at least it’s under my monthly budget”?


Do I have the "option" of paying the electric bill or not, as I have the "option" of paying for a card. I get the example that you are trying to make, but as I stated, don't bid blindly. Once again, I do not condone shillers, but I do buy what I want for my collection, at the price I wish to pay. Whether that be from a shilling seller or not, by following this rule of thumb, I never beat myself up over any purchase.

[Runscott]

I am not a fan of shill bidding either, but any card or item sold on eBay/auction site has the same chance of being shilled, as an item by Probstein. You can say any cards sales data are fraudulent. He takes the brunt, because he is a big target, but a lot of people complaining about his auctions, have probably been shilled on other seller's auctions, and they don't even know it. This brings me back to my point of being an educated bidder, which to me makes shilling an afterthought.

Child, when caught with hand in cookie jar: "But Mom, everyone in our house has the same chance of having stolen a cookie! You are just picking on me because I'm the biggest cookie eater!" (hand in jar during entire discourse)

[Michael B]

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% sellers commission they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

[phabphour20]

Always fun reading these conversations. I think the reason why so many of Rick's auctions are shilled is the same reason why Rick has so many darn auctions... his rates are the best around. If I'm selling a card over $1k, I will flat out get more money for it (after all fees) if Rick sells it for me. So a lot of people will send him stuff to sell.

Then, to degenerates in our hobby, and they are legion, the third party seller allows you the option to shill your own auctions. Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this. So because he has good rates and gets top prices (partially from consignor's shilling), he gets lots of inventory to sell and attracts degenerate sellers looking for a few extra bucks.

I am IN NO WAY defending shilling. It is despicable and a stain on this hobby. But I really don't think you can fault Rick for it. He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian Ronde@u

[slipk1068]

I suspect this may get interesting.

I need to make some popcorn

I do buy what I want for my collection, at the price I wish to pay. Whether that be from a shilling seller or not

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

[packs]

Just FYI a max bid is the maximum amount you're willing to pay. A winning bid is the highest bid placed.

So if you're being shilled, you are not buying a card at a price you're willing to pay. You're buying the card at a price the seller is willing to sell it for.

[slipk1068]

He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this.

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

[phabphour20]

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

Now now, we all know this wouldn't be in his best interest... :p

[phabphour20]

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Definitely a fair point.

[thenextlevel]

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

[Runscott]

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Rick did do something: "hi, best thing it to contact ebay trust and safety and let them determine if anything happened
thanks
rick"

And I bet he was grinning ear to ear as he typed the above.

[drcy]

My answer is more straight foreword and simple: Shilling is illegal, and well known hobby executives are in or soon will be in prison in part for the practice.

To be candid, it blows my mind a dealer would post on a public chat board that he thinks an illegal practice that involves deceiving customers out of their money is okay and justifies the practice. I mean, irrelevant to what are your personal thoughts on the ethics of the practice (and I understand there are honest differences of opinions and viewpoints on the practice), how stupid can one be? It's like a tax accounting posting on a board that an accounting fudging income numbers if fine with him, or a new restaurant owner posting on the local foodie board that he doesn't understand what's wrong with a cook spitting on the raw pizza because if because its cooked at 500 degrees. "Explain this to me: You're using social media to try and convince people to come and eat at your restaurant?"

For me, I think shilling is unethical and it's illegal-- a double whammy for me. I also know that an auction house or dealer does one deceptive practice, more than likely does more than one. You may not know what are the other unethical practices (alterations? deception in the sales descriptions?), but if you identify a seller as using a unethical (or worse) practice, you have identified an ethical seller. If that's not enough to convince a collector to bid elsewhere, there's nothing else I can do. But don't cry to me Argentina if a seller you know breaks the law by shilling also turns out to have sold you an altered item or overembellished the description, because I'll say "And you're somehow shocked that an unethical seller would act unethically?"

I point out that well known hobby executives in the news were prosecuted for shilling AND not disclosing at sale that items were altered and that independent scientific evidence pointed to certain items not being authentic.

My opinion is that the people who boast on a chat board that they, as bidders, have control over shilling going on and it doesn't effect or bother them because they do their homework or bid only what they're willing to bid or whatever, most likely don't have a clue. To me at least, such posts show ignorance and my guess is most of those posters are "buyers" whose opinions about been shilled will change when when they sell their collections.

[PM770]

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

I agree with this 100%

[slipk1068]

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Indeed you are part of the problem. Perhaps slow down the purchases from sellers who are known to support support shilling?

[thenextlevel]

Indeed you are part of the problem. Perhaps slow down the purchases from sellers who are known to support support shilling?

Sorry, but if I see a pc card that I have been searching high and low for, I am damn sure buying it. Look at me as a consumer willingly being taken advantage of and not a problem.

[slipk1068]

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Not buying cards from people known to be breaking the law does not mean "I should just stop buying cards now"

And now, I am done with this conversation. I enjoy this type of thread much more when I can just sit back and be entertained. My mistake for getting involved at all.

[Runscott]

Sorry, but if I see a pc card that I have been searching high and low for, I am damn sure buying it. Look at me as a consumer willingly being taken advantage of and not a problem.

The above thinking is why shilling works. Our friend, thenextlevel, is one of many who think this way and it's best that we all understand it. Doesn't mean to stop trying to stop illegal behavior, but at least it helps us understand why it is so effective. 'thenextlevel' won't go to jail for bidding in a shilled auction, and that's really the only thing that would stop him from supporting this illegal activity.

[glchen]

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% BP they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, the problem of card doctoring, and increasingly, the problem of fake slabs and flips, are much more problematic than shill bidding. But the feds don't seem to see it that way, nor do most collectors.

[hangman62]

I think nobody on this site should bid on ANY Probstein lots anymore....stay away !

I will monitor his auctions and bid accordingly. Just to make sure everything is on the up and up

[glynparson]

Peter said. With doctoring you may get something worth 1-10% of what you paid or in the case of a fake flip 0%. It is rare to get shilled these types of percentages from what is pointed out in these threads. They both suck and should not be tolerated but Peter's examples of fraud screw you much worse than a shill bid

[ls7plus]

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay. If I win great. If I lose, I'll get the card from other sellers, sources, etc. I understand your angst but $62.00 is a small price to pay for a lesson learned. Good luck in your future collecting endeavors.

Duane Clark

+1. Well its nice to get a bargain now and then, most great collections in any field are not built on them. Bid the max you are willing to pay, evaluating as best you can the item's past, present and future potential value, and you will never be cheated.

Best wishes,

Larry

[packs]

I don't understand that logic though. The maximum you're willing to pay isn't the winning bid. You're essentially saying it's no big deal to pay the most you're willing to pay. But to me it is a big deal because I didn't have to pay that much in the first place.

Do you guys use coupons or ever buy things on sale? Or do you insist on paying MSRP for all your purchases?

[nolemmings]

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it? :rolleyes:

[sbfinley]

So most people here would check the bidding history of 2,000 daily auctions 5 times a week for impropriety if you owned a major eBay consignment company? No, you wouldn't because you wouldn't have enough time in the day. So you'd pay two (you would need at least two) full time employees to do nothing but check bidding history when in reality many eBayers have multiple accounts, legitimate bidders retract occasionally (blame eBay for allowing it), and new or occasional buyers may have an exceptionally high bid history percentage with you? Now, you've burned $70k in overhead and salary to discover shillers so everyone uncomfortable with the idea of simply bidding what they value the item to be worth to them can now comfortably umm... bid what they value the item to worth to them. That would be an amazing stand to please those prospective customers who would have else boycotted your company on the basis of principle although then you also need to become the CEO of eBay to change the implemented practice of anonymous bidding which allows such shilling chicanery to flourish because those who boycott your company on principle must certainly also boycott eBay for the exact same reasons. Kudos.

[Runscott]

Steve, you know as well as the rest of us, that this is silly. Your first point has been addressed too many times to count. This is like saying police shouldn't fight crime because there will be some crime that goes undetected, or worse, that everyone is a criminal to some extent.

[Leon]

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it? :rolleyes:

I specifically said I felt it was an idiotic sentiment. I think you are very intelligent and always enjoy our conversations. You are far from what I think an idiot is. :) And who knows, maybe my thoughts are idiotic?

[nolemmings]

Sorry Leon, I did not take it personally and am not offended. I just don't believe that even the sentiment, opinion, stance or whatever is idiotic, nor do I find yours to be so (or any expressed in this thread).

I did not mention that I believe sniping helps prevent shilling, and since I often snipe, I obviously prefer to avoid paying my max price. However, as stated by others here, I am far more worried about card alteration and fake slabs then shilling. If any or all of these can be shut down, great, but until then I'll just plod along as best I can.

[sbfinley]

Steve, you know as well as the rest of us, that this is silly. Your first point has been addressed too many times to count. This is like saying police shouldn't fight crime because there will be some crime that goes undetected, or worse, that everyone is a criminal to some extent.

No, to me it's blaming one cop for a city wide problem. The original poster stated that all five cards were from the same modern set so the low feedback bidder could have been no different from him and trying to pick up multiple copies from the same seller. Had he (low feedback bidder) won the five and the OP been quiet on eBay for the past month it would look the exact same to him with no impropriety whatsoever. I'm not saying shilling doesn't occur in some of his auctions, I'm saying there is no feasible way for a seller of his volume to police it. That's not his fault, that would be directly on eBay.

[Runscott]

I understand the point that everyone is a criminal, although I disagree with it, but Probstein is anything but a policeman. In any analogy you choose ebay has failed in that role.

[4815162342]

If only Grand Slam Bids could've made it...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

[sportscardtheory]

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.

[bnorth]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

It depends if it is a Problemstein auction yes. If it is another large seller that has a banner ad on this site no. I don't get it but that is the general consensus.

[1952boyntoncollector]

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.


the problem with this analogy is the schilling is really a reserve....Walmart never was gong to sell at 15..ony 20...it was bad that they made you go to to the store..but they would not ever be able to sell it at 15...only 20....

instead of just saying there is a 'reserve' they are just shilling..to me shilling and the reserve are the same thing.....except shilling in major auctions costs more cause if they shiller 'wins' they could pay a 20% fee on their own item...

[4815162342]

Does eBay not have the ability to data mine auctions to look for evidence of shilling? I would think at the very least they could after the fact if not in realtime. What if the shiller-inflated amount was refunded automatically if shilling was found within X number of days of auction end? That would put a stop to a lot of this.

I know, I know. I'm dreaming.

[Michael B]

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

I don't know what VCP is. I was commenting on standard auctions as there is no buyers commission on ebay. The seller absorbs all the costs.

Aside - You can 'teach' ethics, the difference between right and wrong. You cannot teach morals, doing what is right versus what is wrong. That is why all law students must pass an ethics class, but not a morals class.

I generally only bid within the last 15 seconds of an auctions end on items I want at at the maximum price I am willing to pay. The price I am willing to pay is always lower than my perceived value of all items that I will resell. On the items I collect I may bid as a collector, but still price it in a similar way. I don't believe I have seen shilling on the auctions I bid on.

[D. Bergin]

Does eBay not have the ability to data mine auctions to look for evidence of shilling? I would think at the very least they could after the fact if not in realtime. What if the shiller-inflated amount was refunded automatically if shilling was found within X number of days of auction end? That would put a stop to a lot of this.

I know, I know. I'm dreaming.


Only way that would work is if somehow, Ebay had a list of all of Probsteins consignors and could match up their consignor info with their bidding info.

Bid %'s don't mean a whole lot unless they are also retracting bids, or they are not paying for auctions they win. Those are two things Ebay could easily track or put limitations on, that they don't.

[freakhappy]

Sorry Leon, I did not take it personally and am not offended. I just don't believe that even the sentiment, opinion, stance or whatever is idiotic, nor do I find yours to be so (or any expressed in this thread).

I did not mention that I believe sniping helps prevent shilling, and since I often snipe, I obviously prefer to avoid paying my max price. However, as stated by others here, I am far more worried about card alteration and fake slabs then shilling. If any or all of these can be shut down, great, but until then I'll just plod along as best I can.

Todd, I agree with what you have expressed in this thread and do not think anything you have mentioned to be in any way 'idiotic'. You spoke of sniping and that's what a lot of collector's do on eBay, so some of the time you don't know if an auction is being shilled or not. I always snipe and when I set it, I forget it and move on. I've bought several cards from Probstein and not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise). I believe some of the consignors are dicks for shill bidding, but as we can see, nothing is getting done about it. And honestly, he sells a lot of cards that I'm interested in, so I'm gonna continue to bid as long as it falls within my range. I almost always bid to get steals, so if i'm shilled along the way to a steal price...well, that just doesn't make sense :confused:

All I'm saying is be careful casting stones...they hurt ya know???;)

[D. Bergin]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?


That's one I'd be concerned with. Not the original post that started this.

It's either a super loyal customer, a bottom level bidder throwing in lowball bids on nearly everything to see if anything sticks and living vicariously through the auctions process (notice hardly any more bids then items bid on), or a shilling consignor setting his own reserve, one bid at a time, on Probsteins auctions.

Only Probstein and the consignor knows if it's the last one, thanks to Ebay's recent trend into "privacy".............but if it is a consignor there's no way Probstein DOESN'T know who it is, based on the large volume of items involved here........it would be hard to claim it's too much work to suss out the consignor.

Looking through a bit of the history it looks like he's a heavy bidder on 1974 Topps hi-grade PSA cards. He has won some auctions and has not pulled any bids. Probstein would know if he's not paying for his auctions.............or if he is and they're from a consignor willing to take a loss to protect his cards, he'd know that to.

[4815162342]

Todd, I agree with what you have expressed in this thread and do not think anything you have mentioned to be in any way 'idiotic'. You spoke of sniping and that's what a lot of collector's do on eBay, so some of the time you don't know if an auction is being shilled or not. I always snipe and when I set it, I forget it and move on. I've bought several cards from Probstein and not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise). I believe some of the consignors are dicks for shill bidding, but as we can see, nothing is getting done about it. And honestly, he sells a lot of cards that I'm interested in, so I'm gonna continue to bid as long as it falls within my range. I almost always bid to get steals, so if i'm shilled along the way to a steal price...well, that just doesn't make sense :confused:

All I'm saying is be careful casting stones...they hurt ya know???;)


How can you so confidently say that "not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise)"?

Even if Mother Teresa was the consignor of every card you've ever bought at auction, it's highly likely that one of the following inflated the market:
1) She was shilled when she originally bought the card
2) Another example of the same card was shilled elsewhere

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.[/QUOTE]

I don't think I ever heard from a friend say he didn't get a 'good deal' when buying a car...I always here 'I got a good deal'...

[calvindog]

I understand the point that everyone is a criminal, although I disagree with it, but Probstein is anything but a policeman. In any analogy you choose ebay has failed in that role.

Probstein is crooked. His auctions are crooked. All the vomitous excuses listed here don't change that.

[autocentral]

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

I don't think I ever heard from a friend say he didn't get a 'good deal' when buying a car...I always here 'I got a good deal'...[/QUOTE]

I think a card is worth what your willing to pay for it no matter what a BV or price guide may tell you. People say they got a good deal when they get a card they want for the price they wanted to pay. You may not agree with the price paid but at the end of the day I don't think shilling will come to an end. Therefore if I get a card for less than what I myself am willing to pay, "I got a good deal."

-Nick

[sportscardtheory]

Probstein is crooked. His auctions are crooked. All the vomitous excuses listed here don't change that.

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

[bbeck]

Probstein is all about the mighty dollar, no matter how small, plain and simple. Pretty sad business model with zero class, built around pure greed and ego. He could care less about shilling, it's all about the money. I came to this realization after an encounter with him after an ebay sale. In the end, he kept the few extra dollars that he was not entitled to. In reality, I actually won, he has to look at himself in the mirror everyday. Huge bummer for Probstein.

[freakhappy]

How can you so confidently say that "not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise)"?

Even if Mother Teresa was the consignor of every card you've ever bought at auction, it's highly likely that one of the following inflated the market:
1) She was shilled when she originally bought the card
2) Another example of the same card was shilled elsewhere

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.


Because I'm a confident person ;)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[freakhappy]

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.


I hear ya, David. I don't think much of probstein for just sitting back in this situation, seems shitty imo. He could at least put on a show for us and act like he somewhat cares...it could save the net54 community multiple threads and hours wasted going over the same stuff that never changes. Appease us, damn it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1952boyntoncollector]

For Argument sake..

lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400

lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..

the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

[packs]

That line of thinking still isn't making sense to me. Your max bid is not the price you're willing to pay. At least for me it isn't. My max bid is the most I want to pay for a card. I'm willing to pay less.

[freakhappy]

For Argument sake..



lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400



lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..



the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...


A lot of "what if" games and analogies going on in this thread. Instead of seeing who's on what side and proving how wrong shilling is and what it could/does to our hobby, why don't we try to come up with a master plan? First off, maybe Leon could ban him from this board permanently. Second, we could round up 100 or so net54ers and we could all email or contact eBay and gripe about the situation...it might not matter, but at least we aren't stuck in a forum smacking each other around about it.


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[vintagetoppsguy]

For Argument sake..

lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400

lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..

the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

:confused: If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

[ullmandds]

:confused: If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

this sounds like another...recent thread? And the OP's answer surprised me?

[sbfinley]

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?:D

[vintagetoppsguy]

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

Scott already told you that you were being silly, but I want to reiterate it. By "do something about it" I mean ban consignors that are shilling their own auctions. Once again, Probstein was given names (eBay usernames and real first and last names) of consignors that were shilling their own auctions. He didn't do anything about it. He continues to do business with them. How about banning them when they're caught, is that a viable solution???

[bnorth]

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?:D

Hey leave us card doctors out of it. If the shillers can steal money and nobody cares we should be able to also.:rolleyes:

By the way anybody looking for a Blue front 58 Hank Aaron, T206 Wagner, or a nice 52 Mantle? Cash only with no returns.:eek::D

[freakhappy]

So what I get out of this is that shilling is not illegal to eBay, but no doubt unethical. So all one can do is protest Probstein's auctions and eBay in general.



Let me ask everyone here this question...Since eBay seems to not care about this and most everyone here wants Probstein's head, are you also protesting eBay as well, since they are allowing it? If you are not, you are also part of the problem in my eyes.

[ullmandds]

I'd surmise Ebay's and Probsteins evolutions are quite similar. Ebay started off as a great new global marketplace...forever changing the way we transact commerce...eventually greed/profits taking presedence turning ebay into a money taking whore.

I'm sure Probstein has evolved similarly.

[Jayworld]

Lots of really good thoughts on this thread, and some others that I don't agree with at all. Seems that the overall consensus for those who agree that shilling is wrong is that sellers often cannot police themselves due to sheer selling volume, but if a seller is alerted to a shill bidder and THEN does nothing to police that bidder (i.e.ban, etc.) then the problem lies with the seller. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Also, the analogy earlier on Post #99 does not seem to jell with me; just because one person uses a BIN to purchase a card for $400 does NOT mean the value of the card is $400. The value of any card (imho) is what the trending price is of a card over many auctions/sales. We've seen how some cards sell for huge amounts (because of multiple factors, including TPG, rarity, condition, auction house, seller, number of bidders, etc.) and at other times for more reasonable amounts....

[sbfinley]

Scott already told you that you were being silly, but I want to reiterate it. By "do something about it" I mean ban consignors that are shilling their own auctions. Once again, Probstein was given names (eBay usernames and real first and last names) of consignors that were shilling their own auctions. He didn't do anything about it. He continues to do business with them. How about banning them when they're caught, is that a viable solution???

So Pang21 is still consigning cards?

[1952boyntoncollector]

That line of thinking still isn't making sense to me. Your max bid is not the price you're willing to pay. At least for me it isn't. My max bid is the most I want to pay for a card. I'm willing to pay less.

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less (whether by open and obvious reserve or shady shilling) than the price that it appears you are willing to pay which appears to be the max price you wanted to pay..

[vintagetoppsguy]

So Pang21 is still consigning cards?

Since eBay has removed the usernames from feedback, I have no way to know that. But, what I do know is that about two years ago Probstein was made aware of Pank21 (or whatever his name is) and did nothing about it at the time because he was caught AGAIN about a year later.




Here's another similar and more recent thread though...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=192011&highlight=probstein+bid+retractions

Do you REALLY believe Probstein did anything in this situation?

[packs]

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less (whether by open and obvious reserve or shady shilling) than the price that it appears you are willing to pay which appears to be the max price you wanted to pay..

The seller is willing to sell it for whatever it sells for at auction. That is the virtue of an auction. There is no set price. I really don't understand your POV that shilling up to a max bid is the same as paying what you were willing to pay. You know as well as I do that you set a max bid in the hopes that you'll pay less. So to me your argument doesn't hold water.

[tschock]

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less ...

Of course they are, otherwise they would have either put a reserve on the item or had a minimum starting price. It is arguably and act of fraud since the rules of the auction (no reserve, no minimum bid) have changed post facto. Hence one of the reasons shilling auctions is considered an act of fraud in most jurisdictions.

[sportscardtheory]

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

Do ANY ebay consignors do this?

[sportscardtheory]

I guess I'm wondering why this thread is about probstein? Do ANY ebay consignors refund shilled auctions, ban shilling accounts and aggressively pursue shillers?

[drcy]

Shilling often is not used as a reserve, but to get the most money out of the bidder above and beyond any so-called reserve.

An example is a consignor in a $9.99 minimum bid auction who is willing to let a card go for $50, a bidder who sets a maximum bid of $75, and the consignor shilling (via bidding and subtracting bids) to get the bidder to pay the $75. If the max bid is $125, the consignor would try to get the bidder to pay that.

[ullmandds]

I guess I'm wondering why this thread is about probstein? Do ANY ebay consignors refund shilled auctions, ban shilling accounts and aggressively pursue shillers?

because he is one of the most prolific ebay sellers...who consistently sells high quality vintage...and SHILLING is so prevalent in so many of his auctions...that's why!

[sportscardtheory]

because he is one of the most prolific ebay sellers...who consistently sells high quality vintage...and SHILLING is so prevalent in so many of his auctions...that's why!

Do you hold him to a higher standard than all other ebay consignors?

[Hot Springs Bathers]

With eBay's billing records wouldn't these instances be just the thing the FBI is looking for in the sports memorabilia business?

[Rollingstone206]

...

[ullmandds]

Do you hold him to a higher standard than all other ebay consignors?

me personally? NO! I know his auctions to be shilled at an extraordinary degree...so I DO NOT bid on them...ever!

[ullmandds]

This thread really should have been done after the 1st post or two...if you bid on Probsteins auctions you have noone to blame but yourself if u are shilled.

[sbfinley]

Do you REALLY believe Probstein did anything in this situation?

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Do ANY ebay consignors do this?

The evidence against Probstein was clearly laid out with all the dots easy to connect (through buyer and seller feedback). There have been many threads about this (like the one I linked in Post #113). I'll tell you what If you can find another eBay dealer shilling their auctions or allowing consignors to shill their auctions, then let me know and I will put just as much effort into drawing attention to them as I did Probstein. Deal?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

Once again, you're being silly. Probstein was made aware of the shilling (Panky) and did nothing to stop it. Isn't that the same thing as "allowing it"?

[vintagetoppsguy]

This thread really should have been done after the 1st post or two...if you bid on Probsteins auctions you have noone to blame but yourself if u are shilled.

Agreed. I'm done with this thread. If people want to defend Probstein and continue to buy from him, then they get what they deserve.

[ejharrington]

Shilling is so hard to police / prove / stop you might as well legalize it. Kinda like steroids in baseball. People should set a price they wish to pay and stick to it. If you can't do that, then expect to be shilled.

[sbfinley]

Agreed. I'm done with this thread. If people want to defend Probstein and continue to buy from him, then they get what they deserve.

Cardboard with pictures of athletes?

[1952boyntoncollector]

:confused: If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

I try to get it cheaper than 400...if seller says..i am firm on 400...I am in no rush and will wait for my price....then if I am ready to pay 400 I will have to pay 400....

[bnorth]

Cardboard with pictures of athletes?

Not just pictures of athletes. In most of our cases they are pictures of much younger athletic men in uniforms. Does that make us all gay perverts?:p

[1952boyntoncollector]

Shilling often is not used as a reserve, but to get the most money out of the bidder above and beyond any so-called reserve.

An example is a consignor in a $9.99 minimum bid auction who is willing to let a card go for $50, a bidder who sets a maximum bid of $75, and the consignor shilling (via bidding and subtracting bids) to get the bidder to pay the $75. If the max bid is $125, the consignor would try to get the bidder to pay that.


well I would agree there...if someone set a max that is clear to the seller by software or some other method and shilled knowing he would be beaten (and no chance of 'winning') by the poor buyer's offer than I agree that is wrong and would be mad...

I am not mad or think we need to change anything when the shiller is basically bidding to what the reserve should be and is prepared to 'win' the card...he wont 'win' the card if knows someone has a max beyond this hidden reserve...

I just think when the shiller has to relist because 'won' the card or better yet has to pay a buyers premium on his own card because he 'won' that really takes care of it.....eventually he will have to take the lesser price and loose a lot of time and money in the process...

[ullmandds]

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

You sure make life sound grand!!!!!!:D

[PowderedH2O]

Two years ago, I sold a large portion of my collection. I sent these items to Rick Probstein, since I did not feel like taking the time to list them myself. The sales were just short of $20k and I took a very close look at the auctions. I could find no examples of shilling on any of my auctions. Now, does this mean that no shilling goes on? Of course not. But, how can Rick be held accountable when he cannot possibly be positive of what is going on at any time? I can tell you that I didn't bid on any of my items. But, I have access to my father's ebay account and there is no way that you could have figured shilling, since at the time (he is deceased now) my dad was bidding on dozens of items every month. I could have easily shilled. I sleep well with a little less money in my pocket knowing that I did things on the up and up.

Rick consigns 10,000+ items a month. How can he also police the activities of every single person that consigns with him? And who is to say that there aren't competitors out there that bid on his auctions just to hurt his reputation?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. In my dealings with Rick, he has been a stand up guy and I've had no issues with his integrity whatsoever. My two cents.

[ullmandds]

Two years ago, I sold a large portion of my collection. I sent these items to Rick Probstein, since I did not feel like taking the time to list them myself. The sales were just short of $20k and I took a very close look at the auctions. I could find no examples of shilling on any of my auctions. Now, does this mean that no shilling goes on? Of course not. But, how can Rick be held accountable when he cannot possibly be positive of what is going on at any time? I can tell you that I didn't bid on any of my items. But, I have access to my father's ebay account and there is no way that you could have figured shilling, since at the time (he is deceased now) my dad was bidding on dozens of items every month. I could have easily shilled. I sleep well with a little less money in my pocket knowing that I did things on the up and up.

Rick consigns 10,000+ items a month. How can he also police the activities of every single person that consigns with him? And who is to say that there aren't competitors out there that bid on his auctions just to hurt his reputation?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. In my dealings with Rick, he has been a stand up guy and I've had no issues with his integrity whatsoever. My two cents.

Generally true statement...from what I know. It's become more a matter of the consigners knowing they can get away with it...so they continue to. It is/would be extremely difficult to police this...dont buy from Probstein...and dont pay more than you want for ANYTHING...noone's got a gun to your head!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have no idea if the auctions at issue were shilled, but as for the arguments and excuses that this is too hard to police, I don't buy it. It would take a few minutes to check the bidding patterns of a week's 25 most expensive auctions, or to spot check a few auctions from major consignors.

[calvindog]

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?:D

I'm mainly concerned with shill bidders and their co-conspirators.

[calvindog]

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

Steve, Probstein engages in fraud as well, not just siting idly by while it occurs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm mainly concerned with shill bidders and their co-conspirators.

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow. :(

[Runscott]

Steve, Probstein engages in fraud as well, not just siting idly by while it occurs.

There could be a lot more to it than just consignors shilling because they know they can get away with it. Probstein is the self-proclaimed largest card seller on ebay. Based on ebay's behavior when it comes to money, I'm sure they are going to 'take care' of him in any way that ebay can get away with. What that means is uncertain, but I'm guessing that at the very least it involves looking the other way. His brazen response to the OP (see first post) is evidence enough for me.

But as all the shilling apologists have said, it's really each person's individual choice. And because of that, to me the bottom line is that this discussion is very worthwhile. At worst, no one changes any of their bidding or consigning habits, but at best, we chink away just a little bit at some of the problems with ebay.

My apologies to Steve or anyone of our other regular posters who I might have offended with my comments.

[freakhappy]

Agreed. I'm done with this thread. If people want to defend Probstein and continue to buy from him, then they get what they deserve.


You're right, David...i will get what we deserve...cardboard that I want to purchase and most of the time, under what my max bid is :)


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[Runscott]

You're right, David...i will get what we deserve...cardboard that I want to purchase and most of the time, under what my max bid is :)


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It's not about you getting what YOU deserve - it's about the seller and his consignors getting what they do NOT deserve. It's about a playing field that is not level.

[freakhappy]

It's not about you getting what YOU deserve - it's about the seller and his consignors getting what they do NOT deserve. It's about a playing field that is not level.


I agree Scott...it's bullshit. But cornering people because they purchase stuff from probstein is out of line. IMO if anyone shops eBay, they are in the same boat as me


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[Runscott]

IMO if anyone shops eBay, they are in the same boat as me


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It's certainly possible, especially if you buy from any ebay seller who accepts consignments, but the odds are lower if you avoid the crooks. That's all the anti-shillers are saying. On the other hand, the apologists are saying that because other sellers 'might' be dishonest, it's okay to shop with the ones you are sure are.

It's also curious that some of the apologists say that the sellers can't police their own auctions, when we've already given plenty of examples of how to do so - running an honest company is part of doing business, and if you can't afford to do so you need to get into another line of work. Sometimes a business is profitable ONLY because it is not playing by the rules. In addition, plenty of business owners have been accused of dishonest business practice and claimed they had no way of knowing what was going on. Courts don't normally buy that.

[earlywynnfan]

I agree Scott...it's bullshit. But cornering people because they purchase stuff from probstein is out of line. IMO if anyone shops eBay, they are in the same boat as me


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I disagree. I might be getting shilled with the sellers I buy from, but I don't think so. You are doing business with someone you KNOW shills.

[CMIZ5290]

Guys...I am going to first say that I have bought many cards from Probstein, many of which I was very satisified with the final bid, and some cards after all of the original Probstein shilling accusations. This is what I don't understand...With the obvious proof and legal consequences, why in the hell doesn't Ebay do a damn thing about it? Yes, they love the money they get from Rick, but if these things are rock solid proven, it seems like they would worry just a tad with legal situations....Just my thoughts

[buymycards]

How about doing these two things with Probsteins auctions?

1. If you are bidding on an item and it looks like it is being shilled, don't make any additional bids, and retract your current bids. This will leave the consignor holding the bag and buying his own auctions.

2. If you win one of his items and it looks like you have been shilled, don't pay for the item. It won't hurt your ebay standing at all, since eBay seems to allow dozens of npb strikes before it affects your account. When Rick contacts you about the non-payment you can respond that you have been shilled. This will be a pain in the ass for him if enough people don't pay and maybe it will force him to take action.

Rick

[SAllen2556]

As a collector, I don’t want anyone bidding on a card they don’t want to win, but artificially boosting the price of an eBay auction can occur in other ways besides the seller or the consigner directly shilling the card, so in the long run, what’s really the difference?

Say I’m selling what I believe to be a unique card on eBay. I set my price very high. I notice after I set my price that someone else is now auctioning the very same card and it looks like it will sell for much, much lower than mine, so I place a bid or two to jack up the price in order to protect the value of my card. Wouldn’t that have the same result to the eventual buyer of that card as if it were shilled? Should that also be illegal if it could be proven?

Shilling might as well be legal and accepted as part of the dynamics of an auction. After all, there is a risk, reward factor to the person who shills, and anyone can artificially increase an auction price if they have the guts to do it.

[buymycards]

BTW, here is an excerpt from eBay's shilling policy.

Policy overview

Shill bidding happens when anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or online connections—bids on an item with the intent to artificially increase its price or desirability. In addition, members cannot bid on or buy items in order to artificially increase a seller's Feedback or to improve the item's search standing.

Make sure you follow these guidelines. If you dont, you may be subject to a range of actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account. Shill bidding is also illegal in many places and can carry severe penalties.

Review our shill bidding policy tutorial to learn more about this policy.


Reporting shill bidding

Learn more about reporting listing violations. If you think you see shill bidding taking place on a listing, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number. We thoroughly investigate every report we receive. Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our User Privacy Notice prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue.

[cincyredlegs]

I don't buy anything from Rick because of two things......one being the evidence provided from the boards here.

Second, I had a friend that consigned big dollars with Rick. He shilled his own auctions. I know this for a fact because we discussed it. I told him this WAS not right and that if got caught, he would be screwed (he did and lost face with people who thought he was a good guy). Anyway, when I said, "if Rick finds out, he will not let you consign with him." His reply to me was "Dude, he knows shilling goes on....all the FK'R cares about is a sale."

I could go on about the examples I know about but will stop there. I agree that shilling is wrong and illegal. If I am willing to spend $100 for a card but can get it for $40 but am shilled to $100. I am out $60. That is complete BS and not right.

Mark

[freakhappy]

I disagree. I might be getting shilled with the sellers I buy from, but I don't think so. You are doing business with someone you KNOW shills.


But my point is if eBay knows that probstein shills and does nothing about it, isn't eBay just as crooked? And if you turn a blind eye away from probstein, but not eBay....you're still supporting a crooked business...right?


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[Runscott]

Shilling might as well be legal and accepted as part of the dynamics of an auction. After all, there is a risk, reward factor to the person who shills, and anyone can artificially increase an auction price if they have the guts to do it.

Except it isn't, and not everyone does.

I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?

[xplainer]

I don't buy anything from Rick because of two things......one being the evidence provided from the boards here.

Second, I had a friend that consigned big dollars with Rick. He shilled his own auctions. I know this for a fact because we discussed it. I told him this WAS not right and that if got caught, he would be screwed (he did and lost face with people who thought he was a good guy). Anyway, when I said, "if Rick finds out, he will not let you consign with him." His reply to me was "Dude, he knows shilling goes on....all the FK'R cares about is a sale."

I could go on about the examples I know about but will stop there. I agree that shilling is wrong and illegal. If I am willing to spend $100 for a card but can get it for $40 but am shilled to $100. I am out $60. That is complete BS and not right.

Mark

True statement. It is set up for shilling. More money all round. Though he is a ebay mega seller... I stay away. Very corrupt operation from the get go.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Except it isn't, and not everyone does.

I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?

The last honest man left standing. :)

[SAllen2556]

"I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?"

No. What I'm saying is artificially inflating an auction can be done by someone other than the buyer or seller and you might never know it happened. And it wouldn't be strictly defined by the law as shilling, but the effect would be the same to the buyer of the card.

I could bid on your auctions just to jack up the prices of your cards which I also happen to be selling at the moment for the benefit of the my own cards. How would you ever know? I just think it's a slippery slope and something that can't possibly be enforced. The lure of the mighty dollar will always win.

[Runscott]

Peter, it might seem like I'm saying that, but I'm not. I think MOST ebay sellers run their auctions EXACTLY like I do. I disagree with the apologists' view that 'Everyone is probably doing it'. The problem is that the few who are certainly doing it, represent a massive amount of the card sales on ebay, so volume-wise it's a worse problem than 'a few sellers are cheating'.

[calvindog]

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow. :(

Most shill bidders have statutes of limitations which have passed too.

[Runscott]

"I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?"

No. What I'm saying is artificially inflating an auction can be done by someone other than the buyer or seller and you might never know it happened. And it wouldn't be strictly defined by the law as shilling, but the effect would be the same to the buyer of the card.

I could bid on your auctions just to jack up the prices of your cards which I also happen to be selling at the moment for the benefit of the my own cards. How would you ever know? I just think it's a slippery slope and something that can't possibly be enforced. The lure of the mighty dollar will always win.

That is an interesting argument, but it isn't shilling and isn't even vaguely on a slippery slope. If you aren't a friend of the seller and you have every intention of paying for the item, it is exactly what you just said it was: a collector putting a bid in to protect his investments.

[earlywynnfan]

"I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?"

No. What I'm saying is artificially inflating an auction can be done by someone other than the buyer or seller and you might never know it happened. And it wouldn't be strictly defined by the law as shilling, but the effect would be the same to the buyer of the card.

I could bid on your auctions just to jack up the prices of your cards which I also happen to be selling at the moment for the benefit of the my own cards. How would you ever know? I just think it's a slippery slope and something that can't possibly be enforced. The lure of the mighty dollar will always win.

But if you bid on my auctions just to jack up the price, you run the risk of actually winning the auction, in which case I'd expect you to pay.

I understand what you're saying that an auction price isn't necessarily the true value of an item, but I think you'd have to agree that the scenario you present is far different than if I run up my own auction, or if I let my wife/kid/friend do it for me.

Ken

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, it might seem like I'm saying that, but I'm not. I think MOST ebay sellers run their auctions EXACTLY like I do. I disagree with the apologists' view that 'Everyone is probably doing it'. The problem is that the few who are certainly doing it, represent a massive amount of the card sales on ebay, so volume-wise it's a worse problem than 'a few sellers are cheating'.

Scott just teasing, I agree with you. I am naïve enough to think most people still have integrity. But a lot don't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most shill bidders have statutes of limitations which have passed too.

Maybe there's hope for cleaning up memorabilia, because I don't see it happening for cards.

[drcy]

I think collectors willing to readily buy from sellers they know act unethically and perhaps even break the law don't realize the significance of provenance as it relates to value-- especially over the long term. If it turns out the seller you procured many of your cards is shown to have knowingly sold altered cards, it will effect the resale value of your collection. Whether or not your high grade cards were, buyers will wonder if they were also altered. Many collectors simply won't be willing to touch your high graded cards or their skepticism will at least be reflected in their bidding when they found where you got them.

Many game used collectors have learned the lesson of how the value of LOAs sand items can drop after the sellers are sentenced for forgery and related law breaking, and how it can taint in the minds of buyers legitimate items obtained from the seller. And there's no reason card collectors purchasing from sellers they know act unethically and/or break the law can't learn a similar lesson.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[Rollingstone206]

...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think collectors willing to readily buy from sellers they know act unethically and perhaps even break the law don't realize the significance of provenance as it relates to value-- especially over the long term. If it turns out the seller you procured many of your cards is shown to have knowingly sold altered cards, it will effect the resale value of your collection. Whether or not your high grade cards were, buyers will wonder if they were also altered. Many collectors simply won't be willing to touch your high graded cards or their skepticism will at least be reflected in their bidding when they found where you got them.

Many game used collectors have learned the lesson of how the value of LOAs sand items can drop after the sellers are sentenced for forgery and related law breaking, and how it can taint in the minds of buyers legitimate items obtained from the seller. And there's no reason card collectors purchasing from sellers they know act unethically and/or break the law can't learn a similar lesson.

In my opinion, very few people care if cards are altered, as long as they are in holders. Oh they might pay lip service to it, but they are more than happy to turn a blind eye.

[Eric72]

...the only recourse left would be to leave appropriate feedback, right?

Well the last kick in the teeth was all the negatives have been removed.

Ter.ry Lew.is

A tip of the hat to the OP for clearly stating why he is POed.

Rick Probstein apparently made this feedback vanish, thereby adding to the eBay sham that is the feedback system.

Best regards,

Eric

[D. Bergin]

Peter, it might seem like I'm saying that, but I'm not. I think MOST ebay sellers run their auctions EXACTLY like I do. I disagree with the apologists' view that 'Everyone is probably doing it'. The problem is that the few who are certainly doing it, represent a massive amount of the card sales on ebay, so volume-wise it's a worse problem than 'a few sellers are cheating'.

+1


Everyone is most certainly NOT probably doing it. Judge individual sellers on Ebay on their own merits, not the entirety of Ebay as a single juggernaut.

It's like saying Mastro is crooked, Mastro is an auction house..........therefore, all auction houses are crooked.

[Exhibitman]

Much of what I am reading in this thread is either naive or appallingly ignorant. The one salient fact on shilling is this: shilling an auction is illegal. It is the e-quivalent of mugging the buyer. End of debate over its legitimacy: as a matter of law that it is never OK.

Shilling is not placing a reserve on an item. Placing a reserve on an item is a legitimate option on eBay but many bidders don't like to see that little "reserve not met" line on the listing, so many sellers balk at using them.

Dress it up all you like but shilling is a fraud on the buyer, who is lulled into believing that the auction started at the opening price and was honestly bid by legitimate bidders to a price one bid increment below the winning price, when it was not.

Shilling corrupts the database of value research. VCP and every price report of actual results is skewed by the overblown and/or fake results reported on shilled auctions.

As for Probstein bidders who bid only with him, how realistic does that seem? I don't know of any active card buyer who bids only with one eBay seller. Does anyone here confine their bidding to one seller? If so, let's hear it.

[SAllen2556]

But if you bid on my auctions just to jack up the price, you run the risk of actually winning the auction, in which case I'd expect you to pay.

I understand what you're saying that an auction price isn't necessarily the true value of an item, but I think you'd have to agree that the scenario you present is far different than if I run up my own auction, or if I let my wife/kid/friend do it for me.

Ken

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

[D. Bergin]

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.


Nah man, what you're describing is basically "bidding". There's a world of difference between somebody bidding on a card because it's going too cheap, and intend to pay for it if they were to win (might as well just outlaw auctions right now, if that's the case)...............then a dealer shilling up his own auction.

A huge difference!

[1952boyntoncollector]

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.


I basically agree...if you prepared to have to pay 20% if you 'win' your own card I really think all of this is a non issue..

I guess if an auction house says 'shilling is allowed but the bidder who wins will have to pay 20%'..i would be confortable bidding knowing that if the owner of the card was really bidding on his own card he was willing to risk 20% on top of his bid if he 'wins' the card...that to me is a legitimate bid for him to take the risk.


Standard language on most AH contracts : Neither you or nor anyone on your behalf acting as your agent may bid on Memoribilia you have tendered to us. If you violate this provision of the Agreement, and you have the highest bid on an item or lot, you will pay us the commission and Buyers Premium on the item or lot upon which you are the highest bidder. There are no exceptions to this provision"

So even though they forbid it..they still allow it to go through if you pay the bp....I don't see a problem with that...that's shilling ..the seller wiling to eat 20%...then that item was going way to low for him....if seller thinks the item is about to sell 10% under market you think he will want to pay 20% to preserve that? no way..he will let it go..

[sbfinley]

As for Probstein bidders who bid only with him, how realistic does that seem? I don't know of any active card buyer who bids only with one eBay seller. Does anyone here confine their bidding to one seller? If so, let's hear it.

Adam, I gave a real example in a previous post. I purchased very little, in terms of cards, this year when compared to previous years. At most 2-3 items a month through eBay and probably 75% of those items were BIN or BO. Later in the year I changed my focus and began buying more. Around October/November I noticed and bid on several (7-9) cards in the same week with Probstein. I won 3-4 and was the underbidder on the rest. Had the winners of the other cards checked the bid history I could almost guarantee my bid history with Probstein would have 90%+ because eBay only tracks bid history for 30 days and because of how little I've bid on in the recent past. What should a seller like Probstein, who already offers a 14 no hassles return policy, do if one of the other winners saw my bid history and though he/she was shilled? Give them all a partial refund? For every person here who makes dozens of bids a day on objects of their hobby there are hundreds to thousands who pick of cards in prolonged intervals, usually multiple purchases at once when funds have been saved.

Nobody disagreeing with the main points of this thread and countless others like it believe shilling is acceptable, just that it's a fact of the system. Even if Probstein, PWCC, or whomever else took every feasible step to try and stop it any a-h@le can find a way to consign and shill a card anonymously. I've never done it, but I'd imagine it can't be that freaking difficult. Some people here call that idealism silly. I call it common sense, but whatever.

[Runscott]

Nah man, what you're describing is basically "bidding". There's a world of difference between somebody bidding on a card because it's going too cheap, and intend to pay for it if they were to win (might as well just outlaw auctions right now, if that's the case)...............then a dealer shilling up his own auction.

A huge difference!

Dave - surely you understand that if we can't get into the mind of a complete stranger to identify his motives for bidding on an item, then all shilling should be legal?

[VoodooChild]

Shilling corrupts the database of value research. VCP and every price report of actual results is skewed by the overblown and/or fake results reported on shilled auctions.

So how/where am I supposed to buy cards for prices that are not influenced by ebay shill bidding? Can we as a card collecting community file a class action lawsuit against ebay for turning a blind-eye? What is the solution? Or is this just something we have to live with in this digital auction world?

I can tell you that shilling is happening for a lot more than sports card/collectible ebay auctions. My wife wanted to buy a roll of fabric. She put in a max bid an lost at auction close. She said "I can't believe there's somebody else in this world who wanted that ugly fabric". A couple days later, she said that same fabric is listed as an auction by the same seller. We checked the previous auction she lost...the winner had 90% bidding history with the seller and tons of retractions.

I'm not saying that I condone it, but what are we supposed to do when the market value of the cards we want are set by shilled ebay auctions? We can boycott certain ebay sellers and ebay itself, but what about respected auction houses and the BST here? Aren't the "market value" prices we pay there also determined by shilled sales?

[nolemmings]

I'm not saying that I condone it, but what are we supposed to do when the market value of the cards we want are set by shilled ebay auctions? We can boycott certain ebay sellers and ebay itself, but what about respected auction houses and the BST here? Aren't the "market value" prices we pay there also determined by shilled sales?
Of course not Jason. Stop being appallingly ignorant. ;)

[Runscott]

Nobody disagreeing with the main points of this thread and countless others like it believe shilling is acceptable.

Of course they are. If they are contributing to the problem by bidding on items sold by sellers such as the ones described here, then they are saying that shilling is acceptable.

Some of the logic in this thread is flabbergasting. To the guy who says if we are not going to patronize known shillers, we should not patronize ebay: If you have a broken arm, do you want your doctor to put you down, or would you rather he fixed your arm?

Okay, this has gotten silly - you guys carry on.

[Runscott]

Of course not Jason. Stop being appallingly ignorant.

Thank you, Todd. That gave me my first outward laugh of the day, and I needed it.

[bnorth]

Adam, I gave a real example in a previous post. I purchased very little, in terms of cards, this year when compared to previous years. At most 2-3 items a month through eBay and probably 75% of those items were BIN or BO. Later in the year I changed my focus and began buying more. Around October/November I noticed and bid on several (7-9) cards in the same week with Probstein. I won 3-4 and was the underbidder on the rest. Had the winners of the other cards checked the bid history I could almost guarantee my bid history with Probstein would have 90%+ because eBay only tracks bid history for 30 days and because of how little I've bid on in the recent past. What should a seller like Probstein, who already offers a 14 no hassles return policy, do if one of the other winners saw my bid history and though he/she was shilled? Give them all a partial refund? For every person here who makes dozens of bids a day on objects of their hobby there are hundreds to thousands who pick of cards in prolonged intervals, usually multiple purchases at once when funds have been saved.

Nobody disagreeing with the main points of this thread and countless others like it believe shilling is acceptable, just that it's a fact of the system. Even if Probstein, PWCC, or whomever else took every feasible step to try and stop it any a-h@le can find a way to consign and shill a card anonymously. I've never done it, but I'd imagine it can't be that freaking difficult. Some people here call that idealism silly. I call it common sense, but whatever.

Your bid history might be 100% with 1 seller but is only a few bids.

You also have to look at the sellers feedback total.
This bidder only has 50 feedback on ebay total.
Put in 788 bids in 1 month with 88% with 1 seller. With that many bids they sure don't win much with the 1 bidder most of their bids are with. Not saying this is a shilling account but I don't buy from this seller because they have several bidders like this in their auctions.

Bidder Information
Bidder: j***m( 50Feedback score is 50 to 99)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
Removed to protect sellers ID
Bids on this item: 10

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 788
Items bid on: 133
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 88% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 3

[Exhibitman]

I'm not saying that I condone it, but what are we supposed to do when the market value of the cards we want are set by shilled ebay auctions? We can boycott certain ebay sellers and ebay itself, but what about respected auction houses and the BST here? Aren't the "market value" prices we pay there also determined by shilled sales?

It isn't easy to fix this mess, no one said we could wave a magic wand and make it so. However, a good start is to acknowledge the problem and refuse to be part of it rather than just throwing up your hands and surrendering. I used to think that I was smart enough to simply snipe my price and that would be OK, but since reading more about what happened with Mastro and what is happening on eBay I realized that it is causing real damage. When I see a probstein auction now I don't bid. Simple enough. If enough people refuse to patronize probstein auctions, they will close. It all starts with personal accountability.

The way people use 'market price' bugs me. People act like there is an entity called 'market' who sets a price like a giant grocery clerk with a tagging gun, and then we have to abide by Market's price on the tag. That is just magical thinking. A card is worth whatever a willing buyer and seller are willing to transact for it at a given time, and that number is subject to indefinite variables that are never quite the same, whether it is someone filling out a set, someone with a big consignment offset available, etc. The 'market price' construct bothers me because if the last sale on the card was $100 but there are no cards available for $100, then the market price for the card isn't $100.

My comment on price distortions dovetails with the market price construct issue: because people insist on creating a 'market price' to rely on, the inflated sales results become the raw data from which people who like to follow the herd will distill their 'market price'. I have been assembling data on boxing cards for my guides for over a decade. I gather data from various sources: eBay, auctioneers, private sales I become aware of, etc. If some of those reported outcomes are skewed by illegal activities like shilling then I end up reporting inaccurate information, and the people who rely on that data to create their price points will be relying on unrealistic data. Uncertainty kills commerce. Unreliable price data generates uncertainty in the sense that collectors see a card selling for $100 and wonder why they can't sell theirs for $90, or they wonder why even though no one has stepped up to pay $90 for the card no seller will take $75 for it.

I have decided that until the python passes the puppy, so to speak--until I feel realistic steps have been taken to stem the tide of shilling and market manipulation--I am not going to offer price research again.

[CMIZ5290]

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

[Sean1125]

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

They are attacked publicly, but no one has the money to attack them legally.

[D. Bergin]

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

Most likely because Probstein is not doing any actual shilling, his consignors are. Ebay does not have Probsteins consignors lists.

It's a grey area, that complicates what many see as a black & white issue.

It's that grey area that probably allows companies like Coach's Corner to still exist. Blame it on the consignors/authenticators/peoples opinions.

At least Probstein sells actual tangible items and not worthless pieces of scrap paper, uniforms and baseballs grafitti'd over with nonsense.

It is a little ironic, that this thread blew up based on a shill accusation that was probably not a shill at all..........when there seems to be so many better examples out there to go by.

[Runscott]

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

Careful Kevin - you could be accused of violating your own request :)

Did you read the very first post in the thread - it gives you a detailed description of ebay's involvement.

[CMIZ5290]

Careful Kevin - you could be accused of violating your own request :)

Did you read the very first post in the thread - it gives you a detailed description of ebay's involvement.

How about a big fat letter from an attorney?? Where's Jeff?

[CMIZ5290]

Scott- Not sure where you're going, but I have backed Rick on a few situations...My complaint is why can't anything be done with Ebay legally? That's all I'm saying...

[Runscott]

Kevin, I'm exasperated with ebay, and as soon as I can make my living without them, I'm out of there. Eventually ebay will be forced to clean up. It used to be you could get away with anything in the sports card and memorabilia hobby - that is slowly changing (see threads on Mastro/Legendary, Operation Bullpen, etc.). Coaches Corner will fall some day and people will go to jail. Ebay may still be a ways off, but it will happen - I wouldn't be surprised to see a sting that sends many of the big sellers, and a few ebay management personnel, off to prison.

Meanwhile, I avoid corrupt sellers just like I avoid buying electronics out of the backs of vans in parking lots. Not much, but you have to start somewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scott what's your prognosis for card doctors?

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin, I'm exasperated with ebay, and as soon as I can make my living without them, I'm out of there. Eventually ebay will be forced to clean up. It used to be you could get away with anything in the sports card and memorabilia hobby - that is slowly changing (see threads on Mastro/Legendary, Operation Bullpen, etc.). Coaches Corner will fall some day and people will go to jail. Ebay may still be a ways off, but it will happen - I wouldn't be surprised to see a sting that sends many of the big sellers, and a few ebay management personnel, off to prison.

Meanwhile, I avoid corrupt sellers just like I avoid buying electronics out of the backs of vans in parking lots. Not much, but you have to start somewhere.

Well said...

[Runscott]

Scott- Not sure where you're going, but I have backed Rick on a few situations...My complaint is why can't anything be done with Ebay legally? That's all I'm saying...

Shilling is illegal. Saying "contact ebay and they will see if any shilling is going on" is bullshit, especially when you know ebay is going to do anything they can to keep getting their percentage of your sales. Like I said, some of the big sellers will do jail time eventually, and claiming they didn't know anything was going on is not going to fly. I guarantee you the FBI has techies who can connect the dots.

[Runscott]

Scott what's your prognosis for card doctors?

Not usually a TLA user, but LOL. Do you remember the raw E95 Cobb that I had? I have 'after' scans of it in PSA, GAI and SGC holders. No one here supported me on that one - not a single person. So I would have to say the prognosis (for them personally) is still pretty good.

Edited to add: the raw E95 Cobb was used as a card doctor test subject, and passed all three grading companies (color added to background, paper tear on back glued back together, stain removal, etc.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not usually a TLA user, but LOL. Do you remember the raw E95 Cobb that I had? I have 'after' scans of it in PSA, GAI and SGC holders. No one here supported me on that one - not a single person. So I would have to say the prognosis (for them personally) is still pretty good.

Edited to add: the raw E95 Cobb was used as a card doctor test subject, and passed all three grading companies (color added to background, paper tear on back glued back together, stain removal, etc.)

See no evil, hear no evil. As long as they look pretty in their slabs and they count on the registry.

[Runscott]

It's true. For those who question whether or not most of the high-grade T206's have been trimmed....please don't make me laugh. Trimming a card is child's play.

[tschock]

These days.... ebay seems nothing more than craigslist on PEDs. :cool:

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's true. For those who question whether or not most of the high-grade T206's have been trimmed....please don't make me laugh. Trimming a card is child's play.

Well maybe but it's also big business.

[lancemountain]

It is a little ironic, that this thread blew up based on a shill accusation that was probably not a shill at all..........when there seems to be so many better examples out there to go by.

There are better examples but that does not mean this was not most certainly shilling. These cards were certainly shilled

[Qcards]

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

[calvindog]

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

How about I offer Rick Probstein the opportunity to take a polygraph test and answer a few questions about fraud? If he passes he gets $100,000. If the results show that he has engaged in fraud he pays me $20,000. Since he hasn't done anything wrong this should be an easy pay day, right? Maybe you can get in on the bet?

[vintagetoppsguy]

he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

I said I was done with this thread, but I need to address this statement because it keeps getting repeated over and over by multiple individuals.

Nobody is asking Rick to monitor his auctions. We're asking that he do something about those who are caught red handed shilling their own auctions (like blocking consignors). Is that really asking too much or am I being unreasonable?

[Peter_Spaeth]

God forbid a business owner monitor his own business to make sure it is operating honestly. Yeah that is expecting WAY too much.

[Leon]

I said I was done with this thread, but I need to address this statement because it keeps getting repeated over and over by multiple individuals.

Nobody is asking Rick to monitor his auctions. We're asking that he do something about those who are caught red handed shilling their own auctions (like blocking consignors). Is that really asking too much or am I being unreasonable?

No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?

[tschock]

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

Call me confused, but what I "don't really get" is these kinds of justifications. What you are saying is that Rick sells my stuff fine, I get my money, so what's everyone's problem? I don't think there is ANY question about Rick getting the money for his consignees. He is obvious doing something right for his CONSIGNEES. But what about the buyers being screwed?

Sorry but to me, these kinds of posts reek of the "I'm getting mine so I don't have a problem with it" kind of response.

[calvindog]

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11

[1952boyntoncollector]

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11



no way that card is shilled to 200.....if at 80 dollars you really going to risk 'winning' the card at 3x market price when its your own card..pleeeezzz..

[bnorth]

no way that card is shilled to 200.....if at 80 dollars you really going to risk 'winning' the card at 3x market price when its your own card..pleeeezzz..

Pleeeezzz, Really your post are great. They always bring a smile to my face.

Why do you think shillers pay when they win their own auction listing instead of just canceling the transaction to avoid the fees.

[brob28]

No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?


Not attacking you on this Leon, but a thought for Probstein. Blocking the bidder is a joke - how hard is it for the "shiller" to create a new account? If he really wants to clean it up he needs to start blocking consignors who have the shilled auctions. Before anyone gets to crazy with me on this - I'm not saying he should immediately ban consignors of all suspect auctions, but he can certainly ban those who have multiple auctions that display this suspect bidding activity.

[brob28]

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11

Come on Jeff, nothing to conclude here - just two balls to the walls registry guys bidding aggressively in an open, transparent auction...

[calvindog]

Come on Jeff, nothing to conclude here - just two balls to the walls registry guys bidding aggressively in an open, transparent auction...

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

[bobbyw8469]

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

+1....I have had some of the same cards both these guys have had. I have NEVER had the kind of bidding wars they have. I have also seen my higher grade/nicer example card sell for less than their same/lower grade card. More examples than I care to mention. Some of it can be people that only want to deal exclusively with them - I get that. However, we are ALL selling on the exact same platform - Ebay. For buyers to bid up their items, and totally ignore other examples that are selling for less....I'm not buying it.

[MikeGarcia]

+1....I have had some of the same cards both these guys have had. I have NEVER had the kind of bidding wars they have. I have also seen my higher grade/nicer example card sell for less than their same/lower grade card. More examples than I care to mention. Some of it can be people that only want to deal exclusively with them - I get that. However, we are ALL selling on the exact same platform - Ebay. For buyers to bid up their items, and totally ignore other examples that are selling for less....I'm not buying it.



... I follow the 1957 Topps set in PSA 7 and 8 to keep a finger on the pulse of the economy....the ''sold'' section in the search results is a head-scratcher sometimes , until you view the 'seller'.

..this is a great thread ; thanks to all the posters ; but this is the first time I've ever suffered a popcorn headache..

..

[calvindog]

+1....I have had some of the same cards both these guys have had. I have NEVER had the kind of bidding wars they have. I have also seen my higher grade/nicer example card sell for less than their same/lower grade card. More examples than I care to mention. Some of it can be people that only want to deal exclusively with them - I get that. However, we are ALL selling on the exact same platform - Ebay. For buyers to bid up their items, and totally ignore other examples that are selling for less....I'm not buying it.

I've collected some 1950s sets in high grade, card by card -- and never once did I care who the seller was unless he had zero or very weird feedback. No one wants to deal exclusively with PWCC and Probstein unless you're a shill bidder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Still trying to get my head around this recent Aaron RC although I am told it was legit.

Latest Auction Prices for: PSA 8 - Average Price: $7,727.00


12/5/14 Greg Bussineau Auction | Image 17 $9,240.00
10/22/14 eBay Auction | Image prewarcardcollector e***m 69 $16,988.00
10/6/14 eBay Auction | Image prewarcardcollector c***a 20 $8,600.00
8/25/14 eBay Auction | Image cmlwvu a***r 43 $6,300.00
2/28/14 eBay Image ksp1140 a***a Best Offer $5,250.00
2/9/14 eBay Image cardcountry t***a Best Offer $6,750.00
1/22/14 eBay Image memorylaneinc -***o BIN $7,745.00

[bbeck]

[QUOTE=Leon;1367663]No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?[/QUOTE

I find it hard to believe his block bidder list is solely predicated on possible shill bidders, more likely on bidders who have called him out on specific issues they have had with him or accused him of wrong doings. He doesn't want those low feedback dings to kill his ebay discounts.

[savedfrommyspokes]

He doesn't want those low feedback dings to kill his ebay discounts.


As with several of the other large sellers on ebay (PWCC 4SC/NESC, battersbox) who are a part of the Emerging Verticals program, each of their additional ebay discounts (the form of discount varies from seller to seller)are pre negotiated and locked in. These sellers have an Emerging Verticals Account Manager,who is over the sports card category, to personally assist with concerns that arise. The goal of this program is to drive sales for ebay (category by category) by increasing the sales of the largest sellers within each category. A top down approach to driving sales.

This is the explanation that I received from an ebay EV AM of a different ebay category.

[Runscott]

As with several of the other large sellers on ebay (PWCC 4SC/NESC, battersbox) who are a part of the Emerging Verticals program, each of their additional ebay discounts (the form of discount varies from seller to seller)are pre negotiated and locked in. These sellers have an Emerging Verticals Account Manager,who is over the sports card category, to personally assist with concerns that arise. The goal of this program is to drive sales for ebay (category by category) by increasing the sales of the largest sellers within each category. A top down approach to driving sales.

This is the explanation that I received from an ebay EV AM of a different ebay category.

Take-home message is that if you are not part of the 'Emerging Verticals' program, you are part of the 'Bent Over Vertically' program.

[vintagetoppsguy]

take-home message is that if you are not part of the 'emerging verticals' program, you are part of the 'bent over vertically' program.

lol!

[stlcardsfan]

eBay is a publicly traded entity that needs to satisfy analysts quarterly earnings estimates. That is where all of this originates.

[Exhibitman]

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

Absolutely agree with this. I have put up cards on eBay a grade level over the ones sold in those two auctions a week later at the same or lesser price and they sit and rot. I know if I am an underbidder and the next week the same card in better shape pops up for a lesser or equal price I am on it. Add to that the 'loyalists' these guys seem to have and the stinky factor goes off the charts.

[jason.1969]

For those not too bothered by shilling, would you support.eBay changing their rules and allowing sellers to bid on their own items? It really is the same thing, only the former is fraudulent while the latter would be transparent.

[freakhappy]

For those not too bothered by shilling, would you support.eBay changing their rules and allowing sellers to bid on their own items? It really is the same thing, only the former is fraudulent while the latter would be transparent.


I don't think anyone is "not too bothered" by shilling, I just think we are limited by what we can do about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xplainer]

Take-home message is that if you are not part of the 'Emerging Verticals' program, you are part of the 'Bent Over Vertically' program.

Excellent post . Accurate and funny.

I stay away from Probstein and the others mention. I know they are shilled.

The whole process lends itself to it.

The ball card world has a lot of unscrupulous people in it.

[bobbyw8469]

Excellent post . Accurate and funny.

I stay away from Probstein and the others mention. I know they are shilled.

The whole process lends itself to it.

The ball card world has a lot of unscrupulous people in it.

Some are...some aren't. When I see a common PSA 3 sell for just as much as the same card in a PSA 6, then yes, I think something funny is going on with the PSA 3. There is nothing that I can add that hasn't been rehashed time and time again.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Hi Guys, I normally post on the football board, hope you don't mind me jumping in... Here are 2 scenarios:

Case 1: Card has market value ~100, high bidder at 80 with hidden reserve at 100.01

The card would have sold for 80 except the owner of the cards jumps in with a schill bid of 99.99

This is basically the OP's case - cheated out of 20 bucks in my scenario. The amount doesn't matter - it's illegal, immoral, etc. I get it.

Case 2: Same as Case 1, except schill bidder gets aggressive and bids 104.99. Now he wins!

What happens next? Does he say: "Um, excuse me Mr. Consigner, I accidentally won my own item, can you please auction it again?" How awkward would that be? And even if the consigner had no ethics, how would the consigner know it isn't a sting?

Does the schiller just quietly buy his own item? Let's do the math. Say he paid 95 originally, 104.99 + 3.50 shipping, so he's up to 203.49. But he gets a consignment check for 104.99*.88 = 92.39. So he's out 111.10 on the card now. If he sends it in again and gets say 110 on the second attempt - he still loses. Plus he paid to ship it in twice which I didn't even count. Is it worth it? Might it not be more rational to let the card sell on its own (legally) rather than play this schilling game?

If anyone out there isn't already burnt out on this toplic, thanks for your thoughts.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Hi Guys, I normally post on the football board, hope you don't mind me jumping in... Here are 2 scenarios:

Case 1: Card has market value ~100, high bidder at 80 with hidden reserve at 100.01

The card would have sold for 80 except the owner of the cards jumps in with a schill bid of 99.99

This is basically the OP's case - cheated out of 20 bucks in my scenario. The amount doesn't matter - it's illegal, immoral, etc. I get it.

Case 2: Same as Case 1, except schill bidder gets aggressive and bids 104.99. Now he wins!

What happens next? Does he say: "Um, excuse me Mr. Consigner, I accidentally won my own item, can you please auction it again?" How awkward would that be? And even if the consigner had no ethics, how would the consigner know it isn't a sting?

Does the schiller just quietly buy his own item? Let's do the math. Say he paid 95 originally, 104.99 + 3.50 shipping, so he's up to 203.49. But he gets a consignment check for 104.99*.88 = 92.39. So he's out 111.10 on the card now. If he sends it in again and gets say 110 on the second attempt - he still loses. Plus he paid to ship it in twice which I didn't even count. Is it worth it? Might it not be more rational to let the card sell on its own (legally) rather than play this schilling game?

If anyone out there isn't already burnt out on this toplic, thanks for your thoughts.

ive mentioned this many times as a reason shilling really polices itself...on the big auction houses you would lose 20 percent...yeah some may want to protect what they think is a steal and pay the 20 percent..but really how many times can you do that as 10-20% really eats away at any profit you want to realize... just doesn't make sense as well if you have a 200 dollar card and its up to 250 which for example is 50 over VCP..why risk 'winning' the card if lose 10-20% when already way above VCP .

I keep seeing how people are saying the same card a week later on PROBSTEIN auction goes 3x what it went for last week...it really doesn't make sense...who the heck would risk 'winning' the card when they own the card when already sky high over what they would hope to expect.

there are also lots of people on net54 who say they consigned cards and got terrible results...so it cant be both ways...everyone cant be selling their cards way below market and everyone else who is buying cards that are consigned are being shilled way over market..

[D.P.Johnson]

Hi Guys, I normally post on the football board, hope you don't mind me jumping in... Here are 2 scenarios:

Case 1: Card has market value ~100, high bidder at 80 with hidden reserve at 100.01

The card would have sold for 80 except the owner of the cards jumps in with a schill bid of 99.99

This is basically the OP's case - cheated out of 20 bucks in my scenario. The amount doesn't matter - it's illegal, immoral, etc. I get it.

Case 2: Same as Case 1, except schill bidder gets aggressive and bids 104.99. Now he wins!

What happens next? Does he say: "Um, excuse me Mr. Consigner, I accidentally won my own item, can you please auction it again?" How awkward would that be? And even if the consigner had no ethics, how would the consigner know it isn't a sting?

Does the schiller just quietly buy his own item? Let's do the math. Say he paid 95 originally, 104.99 + 3.50 shipping, so he's up to 203.49. But he gets a consignment check for 104.99*.88 = 92.39. So he's out 111.10 on the card now. If he sends it in again and gets say 110 on the second attempt - he still loses. Plus he paid to ship it in twice which I didn't even count. Is it worth it? Might it not be more rational to let the card sell on its own (legally) rather than play this schilling game?

If anyone out there isn't already burnt out on this toplic, thanks for your thoughts.

There is no penalty to a buyer if they win something on ebay and don't pay for it...Thus, a consignor who shills their own auction and wins simply doesn't pay for it ...The item then gets put back up for auction and/or given back to the consignor...

[tiger8mush]

Case 2: Same as Case 1, except schill bidder gets aggressive and bids 104.99. Now he wins! What happens next?

The shiller (now knowing the legit bidder put in a max bid of $100.01) would likely retract his bid and then re-bid to $100, pushing the legit bidder to his max.

That's why when you see accounts with large amounts of bid retractions, suspicions are aroused. I've been on ebay for probably 15 years and don't think I've EVER retracted a bid. But there are accounts with a year or two of service and 50+ bid retractions. Doesn't make sense.

[glchen]

...
there are also lots of people on net54 who say they consigned cards and got terrible results...so it cant be both ways...everyone cant be selling their cards way below market and everyone else who is buying cards that are consigned are being shilled way over market..

This is exactly how shilling affects you. You don't shill, you often get terrible results when your cards go to auction. Why do you consider these "terrible" results? Because you bought too high, which may have been due to shilling.

[Sophiedog]

If the consignor gets greedy and wins the item, What happens? Nothing....He just doesn't pay; the seller waits for his money back from Ebay for final fees and the card is listed again....Seller can't leave neg feedback and the sellers that take consignments know the consignors themselves might be bidding so wouldn't leave neg even if they could...bad for future business...Ï hate shilling as much as the next collector....but....it's everywhere...

[Runscott]

ive mentioned this many times as a reason shilling really polices itself...

And it's just as stupid illogical each time.

[1952boyntoncollector]

This is exactly how shilling affects you. You don't shill, you often get terrible results when your cards go to auction. Why do you consider these "terrible" results? Because you bought too high, which may have been due to shilling.


people aren't really talking about ebay ..they are talking about the AH's that charge 20 percent..you cant keep paying 20% when winning your own items..makes no sense ..

as to ebay....yes the bid retraction feature is there up to 24 hours before the item is to sell....you will know which sellers have lots of bid retractions..

plus once you have a 'terrible' result..then why don't bidders price accordingly to the lowest card..why do they value cards with the high bids....we control what we bid....if ebay is terrible in terms of not punishing bidders that win their own items than don't factor in ebay on VCP pricing...lots of ways to deal with shilling...there are so many other things that are wrong that we cant control in life..i don't see shilling as a problem..the major major buys are usually with auctions houses not ebay...if a seller wants 20k on a 1952 mantle..and its at 17k .you really think he will shill it to the next bidding slot lets say 19k....if he 'wins' he will pay 4k with an auction house...no way he bids to that with that risk

[4815162342]

And it's just as stupid illogical each time.

Scott, it was deduced several threads ago that he is the long lost relative of Yogi Berra.

[glchen]

people aren't really talking about ebay ..they are talking about the AH's that charge 20 percent..you cant keep paying 20% when winning your own items..makes no sense ..

as to ebay....yes the bid retraction feature is there up to 24 hours before the item is to sell....you will know which sellers have lots of bid retractions..

plus once you have a 'terrible' result..then why don't bidders price accordingly to the lowest card..why do they value cards with the high bids....we control what we bid....if ebay is terrible in terms of not punishing bidders that win their own items than don't factor in ebay on VCP pricing...lots of ways to deal with shilling...there are so many other things that are wrong that we cant control in life..i don't see shilling as a problem..the major major buys are usually with auctions houses not ebay...if a seller wants 20k on a 1952 mantle..and its at 17k .you really think he will shill it to the next bidding slot lets say 19k....if he 'wins' he will pay 4k with an auction house...no way he bids to that with that risk

This thread is talking mostly about ebay as probstein is one of the largest ebay sellers of sportscards.

You know how many bid retractions that a bidder has on ebay, but not necessarily how many non payment strikes. A shiller can "win" an auction on ebay, and simply not pay, and the card would go to the next highest bidder or be re-listed again where the same process happens.

It's true that you control what you bid, but people usually base their bids upon past auction sales (of the same card or similar cards). However, if the prices of those cards that you are using as your value basis were shilled up, then the entire foundation that you are using to base your bids upon is flawed.

About issues with auction houses, you want to remember what happened to Mastronet...

[bnorth]

Scott, it was deduced several threads ago that he is the long lost relative of Yogi Berra.

LOL, thats funny. I thought he was a short fisherman by his posts.

[1952boyntoncollector]

This thread is talking mostly about ebay as probstein is one of the largest ebay sellers of sportscards.

You know how many bid retractions that a bidder has on ebay, but not necessarily how many non payment strikes. A shiller can "win" an auction on ebay, and simply not pay, and the card would go to the next highest bidder or be re-listed again where the same process happens.

It's true that you control what you bid, but people usually base their bids upon past auction sales (of the same card or similar cards). However, if the prices of those cards that you are using as your value basis were shilled up, then the entire foundation that you are using to base your bids upon is flawed.

About issues with auction houses, you want to remember what happened to Mastronet...


Right we went through this already.....Ebay past sales shouldn't hold as much value as there is no penalty to the shiller versus AHs...and when a card finally gets crushed at an AH because of the past shilling foundation you speak of..now we would have the new real value.....taking ebay out of it..i really don't see how taking a risk to bid on your own card when its at VCP or 10 percent less is worth it when you risk paying a 20% BP...... ..

I value AH past sales higher then ebay..and most people in the hobby that buy expensieve cards have a bunch more knowledge than me so im sure they do the same thing...thus the shilling really isn't the menace people make it out to be

[Leon]

..thus the shilling really isn't the menace people make it out to be

Yes it is.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Yes it is.

Leon- If buyers actually had to pay 20% if won their own items, do you agree that its not as big a deal as many think. I understand there may be issues if they acutally have to pay the 20%, but lets assume you lose 20% if you win your own item, don't you think that's enough of a penalty.

thus if I were to bid on an item, I would know that if the bidder under me was prepared to lose 20% if 'won' the item is pretty comforting to me ..

yes I know you will come up with examples if the item is about to sell for 40% lower than perceived market so people bid on their own items..i say go ahead and eat 20% ..you really think they will want to eat another 20% on the same card?

[Leon]

Leon- If buyers actually had to pay 20% if won their own items, do you agree that its not as big a deal as many think. I understand there may be issues if they acutally have to pay the 20%, but lets assume you lose 20% if you win your own item, don't you think that's enough of a penalty.

thus if I were to bid on an item, I would know that if the bidder under me was prepared to lose 20% if 'won' the item is pretty comforting to me ..

yes I know you will come up with examples if the item is about to sell for 40% lower than perceived market so people bid on their own items..i say go ahead and eat 20% ..you really think they will want to eat another 20% on the same card?

By definition shilling is fraudulent. If you want to protect the price on something do a reserve or higher starting price, neither of which is fraudulent.

[Runscott]

LOL, thats funny. I thought he was a short fisherman by his posts.

I thought he collected Boyntons. I guess only the ones from 1952, which I hear are only theoretical.

[Republicaninmass]

I thought he collected Boyntons. I guess only the ones from 1952, which I hear are only theoretical.


better than ANOTHER attorney :D

[1952boyntoncollector]

By definition shilling is fraudulent. If you want to protect the price on something do a reserve or higher starting price, neither of which is fraudulent.

I agree with you there...but not sure why they wouldn't rather just set a reserve than risk 20% on a 'win' to me that's saying something if they are so sure their bid is so low that they will pay 20% on a win

if card vcp is at 20k and the bidding is at 18k...and they can lose 2k..you really think they bid it to 19k and have the chance to lose 3800? doesn't make sense..i really think though illegal its a non issue for the high priced cards at AH that make you pay 20% on a win.

[Robextend]

Let me throw in my two cents (which is worth less than 2 cents).

An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. When someone bids on their own item, no matter if it is $2 or $20k, it is misleading the market.

The item really isn't worth 19k in your above example...no matter what the outcome is...if the final bidding was meant to have been 18k, that is what it is.

Like stated previously...set a reserve if you are afraid the final price won't be to your liking. It is legal, and does not fraud the market out of valuable data.

[Exhibitman]

The AH hypothetical is not realistic: no consignor who can do math is going to shill an auction already sitting at 90% of past results since it would cost him somewhere on the order of 18% of the value of the lot.

Shilling in an AH would be attractive when the price is way below market and the seller is going to take a giant loss. I'll give you a real world example: Heritage Auctions. HA does two interesting things: it expressly allows consignors to bid into their own lots in return for paying the BP if they win, and it holds unsold lots open for some time as BINs for the minimum bid. I sold a bunch of stuff in November. I did not bid into any of my lots in November. Two of my lots, however, which I was into for ten times the opening bids, were offered as post-auction BINs. I opted to exercise my consignor's rights to BIN them [at the cost of the BP] and avoid taking a 90% loss. The cost to me was effectively 20% of 10% of the cards' value, i.e., 2% of the value of the lots. It was worth 2% to me to take the cards off the market rather than see them sell at throw-away prices and net practically nothing.

This isn't the same as shilling--shilling by definition is illegal and not allowed under the auction rules--so not a perfect analogy, but it is the same financial calculation. To me it was worth 2% to hold my items back. If the cards were at 70% of what I felt was market price I probably would not have gone back into them.

One further note: this whole idea of 'market' is an artifice. We don't have the theoretically perfect flow of information and participation that the model assumes. With all of the auctions around plus eBay the reality is that lots of collectors miss lots of items, which sell for a lot less than they would have otherwise. If information and participation were perfect it would not be possible to flip cards for a profit. I have often had cards go begging on eBay or at auction then suddenly take off and sells in competitive auctions. No rhyme or reason to it, they just got found by the right bidders.

[bnorth]

The AH hypothetical is not realistic: no consignor who can do math is going to shill an auction already sitting at 90% of past results since it would cost him somewhere on the order of 18% of the value of the lot.

Shilling in an AH would be attractive when the price is way below market and the seller is going to take a giant loss. I'll give you a real world example: Heritage Auctions. HA does two interesting things: it expressly allows consignors to bid into their own lots in return for paying the BP if they win, and it holds unsold lots open for some time as BINs for the minimum bid. I sold a bunch of stuff in November. I did not bid into any of my lots in November. Two of my lots, however, which I was into for ten times the opening bids, were offered as post-auction BINs. I opted to exercise my consignor's rights to BIN them [at the cost of the BP] and avoid taking a 90% loss. The cost to me was effectively 20% of 10% of the cards' value, i.e., 2% of the value of the lots. It was worth 2% to me to take the cards off the market rather than see them sell at throw-away prices and net practically nothing.

This isn't the same as shilling--shilling by definition is illegal and not allowed under the auction rules--so not a perfect analogy, but it is the same financial calculation. To me it was worth 2% to hold my items back. If the cards were at 70% of what I felt was market price I probably would not have gone back into them.

One further note: this whole idea of 'market' is an artifice. We don't have the theoretically perfect flow of information and participation that the model assumes. With all of the auctions around plus eBay the reality is that lots of collectors miss lots of items, which sell for a lot less than they would have otherwise. If information and participation were perfect it would not be possible to flip cards for a profit. I have often had cards go begging on eBay or at auction then suddenly take off and sells in competitive auctions. No rhyme or reason to it, they just got found by the right bidders.

Good to know Heritage Auctions allows you to shill your own items.

[calvindog]

The AH hypothetical is not realistic: no consignor who can do math is going to shill an auction already sitting at 90% of past results since it would cost him somewhere on the order of 18% of the value of the lot.



What about the auction houses who were in cahoots with the consigners and wouldn't charge the juice if the card didn't hit the hidden "reserve" agreed to beforehand?

Don't underestimate how brazen some of the consigners/fraudsters are/were. One guy on Net 54 even told the various auction houses that he wouldn't consign his large collection to them unless they agreed to let him shill his own lots. Naturally, Mastro agreed to that demand and, naturally, even bid on his lots for him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Don't underestimate how brazen some of the consigners/fraudsters are/were. One guy on Net 54 even told the various auction houses that he wouldn't consign his large collection to them unless they agreed to let him shill his own lots. Naturally, Mastro agreed to that demand and, naturally, even bid on his lots for him.

To paraphrase the great showtune

But where in the world
is there in the world
a man so corrupt and impure?:D

[1952boyntoncollector]

The AH hypothetical is not realistic: no consignor who can do math is going to shill an auction already sitting at 90% of past results since it would cost him somewhere on the order of 18% of the value of the lot.

Shilling in an AH would be attractive when the price is way below market and the seller is going to take a giant loss. I'll give you a real world example: Heritage Auctions. HA does two interesting things: it expressly allows consignors to bid into their own lots in return for paying the BP if they win, and it holds unsold lots open for some time as BINs for the minimum bid. I sold a bunch of stuff in November. I did not bid into any of my lots in November. Two of my lots, however, which I was into for ten times the opening bids, were offered as post-auction BINs. I opted to exercise my consignor's rights to BIN them [at the cost of the BP] and avoid taking a 90% loss. The cost to me was effectively 20% of 10% of the cards' value, i.e., 2% of the value of the lots. It was worth 2% to me to take the cards off the market rather than see them sell at throw-away prices and net practically nothing.

This isn't the same as shilling--shilling by definition is illegal and not allowed under the auction rules--so not a perfect analogy, but it is the same financial calculation. To me it was worth 2% to hold my items back. If the cards were at 70% of what I felt was market price I probably would not have gone back into them.

One further note: this whole idea of 'market' is an artifice. We don't have the theoretically perfect flow of information and participation that the model assumes. With all of the auctions around plus eBay the reality is that lots of collectors miss lots of items, which sell for a lot less than they would have otherwise. If information and participation were perfect it would not be possible to flip cards for a profit. I have often had cards go begging on eBay or at auction then suddenly take off and sells in competitive auctions. No rhyme or reason to it, they just got found by the right bidders.


in your situation you are effectively allowed to do a 'reserve' at a cost....as a bidder im ok with that or even if the shiller has to eat 20% on a 'win'

as to market.....there are certain amounts given a few months we know a 'safe' amount of what we can get for certain cards...a 1952 topps mantle psa 5 any example non qualifier if not fake etc I think anyone would pay 14k for...maybe it can go for more and tons of examples have gone for more, and maybe there was shilling to get to 20k many many times..but cant we agree that shilling wont impact that card being worth 14k? wouldn't everyone on net 54 agree the 'market' would be safe to pay 14k for....the thing with fighting 'schilling' is you cant win.cause the seller can always have a 'friend' that knows the card is worth 14k pay 14k for it..and it magically goes back to the shiller....

I think this shilling is really just a passive aggressive reserve....what a card sells for to me isn't what its worth all the time anyway to the next buyer...if a card sells for 20k then its possible the only buyer wlling to pay that price just bought it,..now that he is selling it..it has a good chance to go for less as he is no longer in the market and he may of been the one bidding it up with potentially just one other bidder to that amount in the first place..

..to me the card is now'worth' something less than 20k...so I don't view past results like everyone else ..I like to see many multiple buyers bidding above a price point etc..