Dating an M114 Baseball Premium?

[GehrigFan]

Is there any way to know when a specific M114 Baseball Premium was released? I'm trying to figure out the earliest Lou Gehrig card/premium. I have this Mid-Week Pictorial Premium of the 1923 Yankees, dated Oct. 4, 1923:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj259/Manderson9999/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_142829_zps0w0k1c5z.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Manderson9999/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_142829_zps0w0k1c5z.jpg.html)

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj259/Manderson9999/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_142834_zpsk8uxpwjg.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Manderson9999/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_142834_zpsk8uxpwjg.jpg.html)

But the M114 team photo is the one I am wondering if it may have been released before the Mid-Week Pictorial:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj259/Manderson9999/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_143204_zps9lf5wpre.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Manderson9999/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_143204_zps9lf5wpre.jpg.html)

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj259/Manderson9999/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_143211_zpswsv2zdn8.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Manderson9999/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150110_143211_zpswsv2zdn8.jpg.html)

Or are there any other 1923 issues with Gehrig?

Mark

[bcbgcbrcb]

Mark:

From a card standpoint the Yankees team card from the W504 set uses the identical photo as your M114 Yankees photo, making it a card of the 1923 team but issued in 1925 like all of the other W504's. That was always an interesting "card" for me as a rookie option. Obviously the M114 and Mid-Week Pictorial were issued earlier and would qualify as his first professional baseball issue. I'm not sure which one was issue earlier, going back that far, I never differentiated between two issues from the same season, just accepted them both as "rookies".

[GehrigFan]

Hi Phil,

Yes, the W504 Universal Toy Yankees team card is number one on my want list, but I haven't seen one pop up for a long time.

Mark

[FrankWakefield]

You and I could print a 'card' depicting that 1923 team, give them to Net54 folks and try sell a few on eBay... and when we got done we'd be distributing a 2015 produced card.

With that in mind...
The Vintage Baseball Cards catalog shows that as a 1923 issue. I have doubts about that, but it is possible. I think Baseball Magazine would have gotten those out in early 1924 at best.

One thing to do is look at the ads for the premiums in Baseball Magazines from about August 1923 through mid 1924. Look at the ads to see what premiums were being advertised. That might be a clue. Problem with that is that sometimes premiums were advertised before they were available. Before the
Standard Catalog listed these by year, I had started making a list of the premiums advertised, issue by issue. I stopped about 1/4th of the way in, because the Standard Catalog got their listing done. A few old collectors assured me that I'd find a few ads that showed never issued premiums, especially in the last few years of the magazine. Point is that you might see this 1923 team premium in a 1923 ad even though it wasn't produced and distributed until 1924.

So I think it's a 1924 issue, very early 1924. I think most folks will deem that a 1923 issue.

[bcbgcbrcb]

What Frank said makes sense, the Mid-Week Pictorial must be earlier than the M114.

[spec]

Is the Mid-Week Pictorial piece blank backed or is it a page from the newspaper supplement with other text on the back?

[GehrigFan]

The Mid-Week Pictorial is a blank backed premium.

[doug.goodman]

You and I could print a 'card' depicting that 1923 team, give them to Net54 folks and try sell a few on eBay... and when we got done we'd be distributing a 2015 produced card.

With that in mind...
The Vintage Baseball Cards catalog shows that as a 1923 issue. I have doubts about that, but it is possible. I think Baseball Magazine would have gotten those out in early 1924 at best.

One thing to do is look at the ads for the premiums in Baseball Magazines from about August 1923 through mid 1924. Look at the ads to see what premiums were being advertised. That might be a clue. Problem with that is that sometimes premiums were advertised before they were available. Before the
Standard Catalog listed these by year, I had started making a list of the premiums advertised, issue by issue. I stopped about 1/4th of the way in, because the Standard Catalog got their listing done. A few old collectors assured me that I'd find a few ads that showed never issued premiums, especially in the last few years of the magazine. Point is that you might see this 1923 team premium in a 1923 ad even though it wasn't produced and distributed until 1924.

So I think it's a 1924 issue, very early 1924. I think most folks will deem that a 1923 issue.

I completely agree with Frank, except I would call it a 1924 issue. I seriously doubt that BBM would have gotten them out in 1923. There are many team issues in the M114 "Set" that refer to the team being champion and although the SC lists them all as the year of their win, I would bet that they were all released the next year.

Doug

[GehrigFan]

Yep, now that I think about it, Frank and Doug are probably right. Most other premiums of teams were released the year after the photograph. At least the Mid-Week Pictorial is definitively dated. I really need to get it framed carefully. And the M114 still pre-dates any of his card issues, so I'm still thrilled to have it.

Doesn't sound like there are any other 1924 or earlier Gehrig issues (in individual, group or team shots), other than a few rare news photos perhaps?

Mark

[Huysmans]

If you want to successfully date an M114 premium....
you should wear a suit and buy it flowers. 😎