The Scoundrel HOF

[frankbmd]

It seems to be HOF thread season so let me so bold to add "The Scoundrel HOF".

To qualify a player, manager, coach, owner or umpire must be compared to other scoundrels of their era. Statistics are definitely a secondary consideration for the selection committee. I'm looking for corkers, spitters, bribers, corruption of all types and especially felons.

Please nominate no more than three selections in your post and if possible make it three from different eras. I will keep a tally (vote count) and after 426 posts, the top ten on the list will be inducted into "The Scoundrel HOF".

I will get the ball rolling by nominating

Hal Chase
Pete Rose
Barry Bonds

The nominations will be added and updated periodically below. Currently 4 nominations qualifies for the top ten. I am not going to check for cheating and if you listed more than three, they are all counted. And we are using Chicago voting rules, vote early and vote often.;) Totals below through Post #120:

1 Braun, Ryan 13
2 Bonds, Barry 11
3 Rose 8
4 Clemens 8
5 Rodriguez, Alex 8
6 Cobb 6
7 Urbina 5
8 McGwire 5
9 Selig 4
10 Bergen 4
11 Anson 4
12 Chase 3
13 Sosa 3
14 Hall, Mel 3
15 Landis 3
16 Gandil 3
17 Jackson, Joe 3
18 Miller, Marvin 3
19 Chapman 2
20 Boggs 2
21 Canseco 2
22 Marichal 2
23 Powell, Jake 2
24 DiMaggio, Joe 2
25 Devlin, Jim 2
26 McLain 2
27 Howe, Steve 2
28 Curtis 2
29 Cedeno 1
30 Cepeda 1
31 Risberg 1
32 Kingman 1
33 Dykstra 1
34 Belle 1
35 Gooden 1
36 Strawberry 1
37 Thomson, Hank 1
38 Cicotte 1
39 Williams, Lefty 1
40 Comiskey 1
41 Scott, Mike 1
42 Perry, Gaylord 1
43 Speaker 1
44 Hornsby 1
45 Bradley, Milton 1
46 Mays, Carl 1
47 Burns, Bill 1
48 Palmiero 1
49 Hall, George 1
50 Tebeau, Pat 1
51 Fehr 1
52 Ramirez 1
53 Justice 1
54 Piazza 1
55 Caminiti 1
56 Machado 1
57 Niekro, Joe 1
58 Robison bros 1
59 McGraw 1
60 Hoyt, Lamarr 1
61 Nettles 1
62 Pineda 1
63 Mantle 1
64 Mays, Willie 1
65 Bouchee 1
66 Neel 1
67 Dukes 1
68 Giles, Brian 1
69 Comiskey 1
70 Puckett 1

[Vintagecatcher]

Hi Frank,

Here are my 3 for the scoundrel HOF.

Ty Cobb
Joe Jackson
Roger Clemons

Patrick

[Eric72]

Ty Cobb
Mel Hall
Ugeth Urbina

[ksabet]

My three:


Pete Rose
Ugueth Urbina
Denny Mclain

[bn2cardz]

So are they the best player that also happen to be scoundrels? Or is this the biggest scoundrel of their era?

If it is the biggest scoundrel without any care for on the field play than here are mine:

Marty Bergen

César Cedeño

Ugueth Urbina

[frankbmd]

I think we may have a closer, in more ways than one.;):eek::D

[Bocabirdman]

Let us nor forget Orlando Cepeda and his suitcase of weed.:D

[Jayworld]

Charles Risberg
Barry Bonds
Ryan Braun

[slipk1068]

From what I have read, Dave Kingman and Joe DiMaggio are/were not nice guys.

edit: Lenny Dykstra

[wolf441]

Hal Chase
Ben Chapman
Joey Belle

[Northviewcats]

If you take into consideration players that were talented enough to make the Hall of Fame but their inner demons got in the way I would nominate:

Dwight Gooden
Darryl Strawberry
Hank Thompson

Denny McLain has also been mentioned. What he did to the retirement fund at Peet Packing Company was pretty low.

[jdeptula]

3 Black Sox:

Chick Gandil
Eddie Cicotte
Lefty Williams

I watched Eight Men Out the Other Day :)

[slipk1068]

Charles Comiskey has to be a first ballot scoundrel. No way Cicotte should be nominated.

[pariah1107]

Cap Anson
Hal Chase
Kennesaw Mountain Landis

[bcbgcbrcb]

How about Mike Scott and his famous "cutter" from c1986?

[Section103]

Gaylord Perry. He cheated so much and just smiled about it that it became publicly acceptable.

[jdeptula]

Really? He didn't throw Series games for cash?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious of your reasoning.

Agree on Comisky. Should have probably had him after Gandil.


Charles Comiskey has to be a first ballot scoundrel. No way Cicotte should be nominated.

[conor912]

Ty Cobb
Marvin Miller
Alex Rodriguez

[rats60]

Instead of repeats, guys not listed yet

Speaker
Hornsby
All yet unlisted PED guys.

Let's list some more PED guys.

[The Nasty Nati]

Definitely Ty Cobb #1, then #2 Pete Rose, and assuming we are talking about "potential" HOFers #3 Barry Bonds.

I'm still hesitant to splurge money on a T206 Cobb because the guy was just a horrible person. I understand he lived in a different era, but he was extremely racist...much respect to Boss Schmidt, a guy who would literally knock Cobb out when he would make racist remarks and harassments.

[ALR-bishop]

Canseco
Rose (taxes)
Milton Bradley ( not the game)

Honorable mentions

Ed Bouche
Tawny Kittaen ( for assault of Chuck Finley)

[BicycleSpokes]

I nominate Bud Selig, for keeping his eyes closed during the PED era. If he had demonstrated better leadership, much of our current HOF predicaments might have been avoided altogether. He did a real disservice to the game he was supposed to be protecting, in my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[earlywynnfan]

Trying for new names, but Anson HAS to be an inaugural member!

Cap Anson
Carl Mays
Wade Boggs

[slipk1068]

Really? He didn't throw Series games for cash?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious of your reasoning.

Agree on Comiskey. Should have probably had him after Gandil.

I am not at all trying to be snarky either, but how is it possible to watch Eight Men Out and not view Cicotte as at least somewhat of a victim? The guy had a contract for a 10 grand bonus if he won 30 games. Comiskey ordered him benched after 29 games which prevented him from collecting that bonus which was a HUGE amount of money probably more than his yearly salary. And everyone was so Shocked when it happened.

Throwing games for money was not uncommon in a time when players were enslaved by The Reserve Clause. I am shocked that it wasn't a more common occurrence.

I would like to see Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, and Cicotte enshrined in Cooperstown.

[Econteachert205]

Sleepy bill burns

Ben chapman

Steve Howe

[bundy462]

Gandil for his "ringleader" role in the Black Sox debacle
Rose for the gambling
Selig because when there are too many players to name one specifically for PEDs, you have to look at the guy at the top

[Fred]

From the PED-o-files:

Bonds
ARod
Braun
Palmiero
Clemens

I respect McGwire because he didn't lie (until he got caught) about his PED use. Those other boneheads listed are just a bunch of talente schmucks, Bonds in more ways than just his PED use/denial. Sadly, Bonds would have been HOF material without the PEDs.

[Eric72]

Marty Bergen



Amazingly, I had never heard the story of Marty Bergen before. What a psycho!

Hard to believe he only has one vote so far. Since we're only allowed to nominate three scoundrels, I will do the next best thing.

I second your nomination of Marty Bergen.

What he did makes PED use, throwing games, or betting on baseball seem relatively minor, by comparison.

Best regards,

Eric

[Kenny Cole]

I'll go back to the early days for some new names

Jim Devlin
George Hall
Pat Tebeau

[Peter_Spaeth]

ARod Bonds Boggs.

[jdeptula]

I am not at all trying to be snarky either, but how is it possible to watch Eight Men Out and not view Cicotte as at least somewhat of a victim? The guy had a contract for a 10 grand bonus if he won 30 games. Comiskey ordered him benched after 29 games which prevented him from collecting that bonus which was a HUGE amount of money probably more than his yearly salary. And everyone was so Shocked when it happened.

Throwing games for money was not uncommon in a time when players were enslaved by The Reserve Clause. I am shocked that it wasn't a more common occurrence.

I would like to see Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, and Cicotte enshrined in Cooperstown.

You make a valid point. It just seemed to me that Cicotte and Williams did most of the "heavy lifting", so to speak, when it came to throwing the games. You could leave out any of the other 6 guys and still lose 5 games. With those 2 playing their best, Chicago likely wins regardless.

I would also like to see Jackson in the Hof. Never really thought of Cicotte in that way, but I see where you're coming from.

[rats60]

I nominate Bud Selig, for keeping his eyes closed during the PED era. If he had demonstrated better leadership, much of our current HOF predicaments might have been avoided altogether. He did a real disservice to the game he was supposed to be protecting, in my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Don't forget Donald Fehr who did everything he could to block testing and keep cheaters from being exposed.

[ksabet]

From the PED-o-files:

Sadly, Bonds would have been HOF material without the PEDs.

He is still HOF material.

[mattsey9]

I am not at all trying to be snarky either, but how is it possible to watch Eight Men Out and not view Cicotte as at least somewhat of a victim? The guy had a contract for a 10 grand bonus if he won 30 games. Comiskey ordered him benched after 29 games which prevented him from collecting that bonus which was a HUGE amount of money probably more than his yearly salary. And everyone was so Shocked when it happened.

Throwing games for money was not uncommon in a time when players were enslaved by The Reserve Clause. I am shocked that it wasn't a more common occurrence.

I would like to see Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, and Cicotte enshrined in Cooperstown.

Throwing games for money was unfortunately all too common in this era. However, current scholarship reveals that the Cicotte 10K bonus story we've all heard isn't based in fact. There was no clause in Cicotte's pact rewarding him for 30 wins, and it seems that the player himself begged off duty to return home to rest his weary arm.

In fact, Cheapskate Comiskey doubled the pay of Cicotte and Lefty Williams for 1920.

[sniffy5]

I don't think McGwire or Sosa are hof material. Without their shameless steroid use, and in Mcgwire's case, offensively shameless, when he hugs proudly hugs Maris' sons moments after stealing their father's well-earned legacy by so obviously cheating to attain that record, McGwire and Sosa are nothing special. I even think McGwire had a season hitting below the Mendoza line. Yeah, the hall is full of guys like that... But what I really wonder is how we would view Bonds and Clemens had they not been, and presumably still are, incredible a**holes. Clemens had an ongoing relationship with a 10th grade girl when he was a married man of 30. She has since committed suicide. How do you sleep at night Roger? I'm sure he sleeps very well, which tells us all we need to know about Roger Clemens. And if 1/10 of what "Game of Shadows" is true about Bonds, then he has a personality disorder that borders on psychotic. Yet, if those two dudes had happened to be nicer, humbler, more likable, I wonder if things would be different for them going forward..??

[iwantitiwinit]

Arod
Arod
Arod

[EvilKing00]

Anson
Cobb
Canseco
Marty Bergen

[dgo71]

Marty Bergen
Chad Curtis
Manny Ramirez

[quinnsryche]

Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGwire

Miserable, cheatin' SOB's
Hate all 4 of them and all the other juiced up scum (Palmiero, Canseco, Caminiti etc)

[Kenny Cole]

Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGwire

Miserable, cheatin' SOB's
Hate all 4 of them and all the other juiced up scum (Palmiero, Canseco, Caminiti etc)

Caminiti's dead, so you can probably lose your hate for him now.

[D.P.Johnson]

Juan Marichal for the Johnny Roseboro incident.
Pete Rose for the Ray Fosse incident.
David Justice for the Halle Berry incident.

[drmondobueno]

Bonds
Piazza
McGwire

Sosa
Clemens
Caminiti


OK, that s six. So I vote once for me and once for my son, who knows way too much about Steroid era ballplayers after playing the last 20 years in local weekend beer leagues with multiple pro ballplayers, including Canseco.

[Kenny Cole]

I don't really view Caminiti as a scoundrel. I just think his story is incredibly sad and a tragic and awful waste of a life.

[Texxxx]

Julio Machado
Ugueth Urbina
Mel Hall

[AJR]

I don't understand why Ty Cobb is on so many scoundrel lists. Yesterday in ESPN they also made a reference to Cobb being a dishonest player and frankly I need to stand up for good old Ty...

While he may have been gruff, mean, bigoted, rough and cruel as a man he never was a cheat!

It seems arbitrary to place him alongside the likes of Hal Chase or Barry Bonds both of whom actually cheated in different ways.

The Hall should be about baseball accomplishments, not being a nice guy. For that reason, Cobb was the first man inducted into the hall out voting, Ruth, Wagner, Johnson, Matthewson and the like.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[conor912]

I don't understand why Ty Cobb is on so many scoundrel lists. Yesterday in ESPN they also made a reference to Cobb being a dishonest player and frankly I need to stand up for good old Ty...

While he may have been gruff, mean, bigoted, rough and cruel as a man he never was a cheat!

It seems arbitrary to place him alongside the likes of Hal Chase or Barry Binds both of whom actually cheated in different ways.

The Hall should be about baseball accomplishments, not being a nice guy. For that reason, Cobb was the first man inducted into the hall out voting, Ruth, Wagner, Johnson, Matthewson and the like.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

It's not The Cheat HOF, it's The Scoundrel HOF :)

[dgo71]

Julio Machado
Ugueth Urbina
Mel Hall

Good call on Hall and Machado! Can I change one of my three to Chad Curtis?

[frankbmd]

56 scoundrels have been nominated so far. The list will be added and updated in the first post.

[Chris Counts]

With great pleasure, I nominate Bud Selig.

[Tabe]

Throwing games for money was unfortunately all too common in this era. However, current scholarship reveals that the Cicotte 10K bonus story we've all heard isn't based in fact. There was no clause in Cicotte's pact rewarding him for 30 wins, and it seems that the player himself begged off duty to return home to rest his weary arm.

In fact, Cheapskate Comiskey doubled the pay of Cicotte and Lefty Williams for 1920.

Not to mention Cicotte had two shots at #30 and blew both.

[Tabe]

I wonder how many of Cobb's nominations are based on the false stories made up by Al Stump?

[Kenny Cole]

I wonder how many of Cobb's nominations are based on the false stories made up by Al Stump?

LOL, I wonder how many really bad true stories Stump didn't tell.

[Jim65]

Joe Niekro
Juan Marichal
Joe Jackson

[bn2cardz]

Amazingly, I had never heard the story of Marty Bergen before. What a psycho!

Hard to believe he only has one vote so far. Since we're only allowed to nominate three scoundrels, I will do the next best thing.

I second your nomination of Marty Bergen.

What he did makes PED use, throwing games, or betting on baseball seem relatively minor, by comparison.

Best regards,

Eric

Well I am glad I am not alone in believing slaughtering your 3 year old son, 6 year old daughter, and your spouse with an ax is a worse offense than using PEDs or being rude to fans.

[earlywynnfan]

I'm going to rebel here!!! Keeping it to three choices is arbitrary and constricting. Weren't the original HOF voters allowed 5 picks?? I'm adding two more:

Mel Hall -- I hope there's a special place in Hell for pedophiles
The Robison brothers -- syndicate baseball!!

Ken

[Runscott]

I'll go with baseball-related scoundrels. My nominations are based on my extreme dislike for liars - these four epitomize lying and betrayal of their fans, and will always head up my own personal 'scoundrel' hall of fame, regardless of the results of Frank's poll (which is very interesting).

I had to choose four, as they are almost tied (in my mind, at least). There are others whose PED use was certainly as bad, but these were the poster boys in terms of their brazen public denial. Braun is #1 because he sacrificed a man who was simply doing his job. McGwire's pansy-like behavior in court deserves special mention - apparently when the steroids wore off, his balls shrunk. Rodriguez was/is just plain stupid - to me, easily the dumbest of the entire bunch. Barry Bonds doesn't make my list, because he at least spared us the constant stupid public denials. We knew he was lying, he knew we knew. The others tried much harder to fool us.

1. Braun
2. Rodriguez
3. McGwire
4. Clemens

[EvilKing00]

With great pleasure, I nominate Bud Selig.

cant believe I forgot him! great call there!

a quick rant I had on him a while back if anyone cares about him - http://metsmerizedonline.com/2014/01/mmo-fan-shot-how-about-a-211-game-suspension-for-bud-selig.html/

[campyfan39]

Bonds
Rose
Landis


great thread

[Section103]

Well I am glad I am not alone in believing slaughtering your 3 year old son, 6 year old daughter, and your spouse with an ax is a worse offense than using PEDs or being rude to fans.

The instance is, of course, worse than anything else listed here. But to me, the situation is far more sad and tragic than it is scandalous. The guy was very clearly not in his right mind and very far from it. We don't treat mental illness well today. I can only imagine how poorly it was handled then. I do fault the guy for not taking his meds (that's his responsibility) but somebody should have stepped in and institutionalized this guy way before anything like this happened. Its a failure on so many fronts.

[Runscott]

It is a common misconception that mentally ill people realize they are mentally ill and are making a sane decision not to take their meds.

[baseballart]

I am very puzzled by a nomination of Marvin Miller, unless one is a fan of labour laws in 19th century England. Even so, a scoundrel?

[asoriano]

Bonds
Rodriguez
Selig

[packs]

Jake Powell, a real dirt bag.

[earlywynnfan]

Jake Powell, a real dirt bag.

Much more deserving, IMHO, than Ben Chapman, who was a product of his upbringing (not much of an excuse) but matured and became a much better human being as he got older. From what I've read, Powell was a SOB till the end.

[ElCabron]

Anson
Cobb
Landis

[ALR-bishop]

I am very puzzled by a nomination of Marvin Miller, unless one is a fan of labour laws in 19th century England. Even so, a scoundrel?


My only complaint against Mr Miller was his apparent negative impact on the Topps 1968 set and the 1969 set, at least the first four series :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

The instance is, of course, worse than anything else listed here. But to me, the situation is far more sad and tragic than it is scandalous. The guy was very clearly not in his right mind and very far from it. We don't treat mental illness well today. I can only imagine how poorly it was handled then. I do fault the guy for not taking his meds (that's his responsibility) but somebody should have stepped in and institutionalized this guy way before anything like this happened. Its a failure on so many fronts.

What meds were available in the 1890s?

[Section103]

What meds were available in the 1890s?

Im no expert, to say the least, but bromides were what was prescribed for Bergen if we are to believe Wikipedia.

[PM770]

My only complaint against Mr Miller was his apparent negative impact on the Topps 1968 set and the 1969 set, at least the first four series :)

I'll admit my ignorance and/or my sarcasm meter is broken, but waht did he do to the 1968 & 69 Topps sets?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Im no expert, to say the least, but bromides were what was prescribed for Bergen if we are to believe Wikipedia.

Ah the good old days. I bet Burkett wrote a lot of those prescriptions in the day.

[frankbmd]

Peter, take your bromides and keep the doctor-patient relationship confidential.;)

[earlywynnfan]

I'm not surprised at how many picked Cobb, although I don't think he was nearly as bad as most believe. But why hasn't anyone named a player/manager that actually PRIDED himself on being an SOB??

I present to you: John J. Mugsy McGraw!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, take your bromides and keep the doctor-patient relationship confidential.;)

The malpractice suit will be very public. I expected better from a doctor with 100 years of experience.

[frankbmd]

The malpractice suit will be very public. I expected better from a doctor with 100 years of experience.

101 years and I have an experienced attorney.;)

[Runscott]

Frank honed his collecting skills early in his medical career.

http://www.spidermex.com/html/html166/simpson_t17-e02_a.jpg

[Steve D]

Lamarr Hoyt
Graig Nettles
Michael Pineda

Steve

[Eric72]

Chicago voting rules, vote early and vote often



Fair enough, Frank. I was born and raised in Philadelphia, where half the graveyards cast their vote for Mayor every four years. :eek:

Jim Devlin
Chick Gandil
Barry Bonds

[eastonfalcon19]

Rose
Clemens
J.Jackson

[Runscott]

Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Joe DiMaggio

[Eric72]

Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Joe DiMaggio

Scott,

Are you stirring the pot with this post or do you think those three were truly scoundrels?

[Runscott]

I didn't want to waste my votes on Devlin, Bonds and Gandil, since those guys are shoo-ins.

[Steve D]

Actually, Mantle and Mays were banned from baseball by Peter Ueberoth in the 1980s, due to their association with an Atlantic City casino.


Steve

[Runscott]

Actually, Mantle and Mays were banned from baseball by Peter Ueberoth in the 1980s, due to their association with an Atlantic City casino.


Steve

The gambling was more my angle. If this thread had included football, I would have thrown in Alex Karras and Paul Hornung.

But yes, Eric - I figured that would stir up things. But I do have limits, deciding to leave Jackie Robinson, Kirby Puckett and Roberto Clemente off of my list.

[EvilKing00]

I didn't want to waste my votes on Devlin, Bonds and Gandil, since those guys are shoo-ins.

Lol classic!

[conor912]

I am very puzzled by a nomination of Marvin Miller, unless one is a fan of labour laws in 19th century England. Even so, a scoundrel?

IMO, he changed the course of the game in a very negative way. I'm not necessarily anti-union, but at the end of the day, he's the reason why so many American families can no longer afford a day at the ballpark. Under his watch, baseball went from blue collar entertainment to white collar privilege, and took a significant amount of soul out of the game in the process. I realize if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else at some point, but Miller gets the dubious honor of holding the shit end of the stick in my mind.

[frankbmd]

IMO, he changed the course of the game in a very negative way. I'm not necessarily anti-union, but at the end of the day, he's the reason why so many American families can no longer afford a day at the ballpark. Under his watch, baseball went from blue collar entertainment to white collar privilege, and took a significant amount of soul out of the game in the process. I realize if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else at some point, but Miller gets the dubious honor of holding the shit end of the stick in my mind.

A post of this type will be counted as a nominating vote. The vermin are beginning to rise to the top, just like the cream in those old milk bottles. Any glass milk bottle collectors out there? Remember when milk was delivered. Anybody look like their Mom's milkman? Excuse my digression. Carry on.

[dgo71]

IMO, he changed the course of the game in a very negative way. I'm not necessarily anti-union, but at the end of the day, he's the reason why so many American families can no longer afford a day at the ballpark. Under his watch, baseball went from blue collar entertainment to white collar privilege, and took a significant amount of soul out of the game in the process. I realize if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else at some point, but Miller gets the dubious honor of holding the shit end of the stick in my mind.

Prices for tickets to a baseball game, on average, are lower than every other major sport, and lower than the NFL average by more than half. Miller began his run almost 50 years ago, prices for everything in the world has risen exponentially in that time. What Miller did was take away the monopoly the owners had and give leverage to the men who were actually on the field earning those dollars. JMO, Miller should be in the HOF, not the HOS.

[the 'stache]

I'll go with baseball-related scoundrels. My nominations are based on my extreme dislike for liars - these four epitomize lying and betrayal of their fans, and will always head up my own personal 'scoundrel' hall of fame, regardless of the results of Frank's poll (which is very interesting).

I had to choose four, as they are almost tied (in my mind, at least). There are others whose PED use was certainly as bad, but these were the poster boys in terms of their brazen public denial. Braun is #1 because he sacrificed a man who was simply doing his job.

Whoa, Braun didn't "sacrifice" anybody. Saying this shows a casual ignorance of the facts in this case, something a lot of people discussing this on the internet are guilty of because they took what ESPN, or Yahoo Sports printed in an article, and accepted it as fact without questioning the veracity of the information being presented (this is not in any way a knock on you personally, Scott). When the story broke, it was that "Braun is fighting a PED suspension." Then it was "Braun is fighting a suspension not for PEDs, but use of a banned substance." Then, it was "Braun took a banned substance to combat a STD." The sports media were in such a frenzy to break the story that they didn't care if there was a shred of truth in what they were printing. Hell, the whole story only broke because somebody decided that Braun's right to a confidential appeals process was less important than ratings for ESPN. What does that tell you about T.J. Quinn et all in the "Outside The Lines" reporting crew? Yahoo Sports wasn't much better. Jeff Passan, the idiot at Yahoo Sports with the hard on for Braun, has printed more BS than anybody I've ever seen. He wrote a story that Braun contacted three players, Matt Kemp, Troy Tulowitzki, and Joey Votto, asking them for public support, because, according to Passan, Braun said Dino Laurenzi Jr, the collector, was an anti-semitic Cubs fan. The very next day, both Tulowitzki and Votto went on record as saying that the conversations never happened, that the story was a complete fabrication. Votto even offered to make his phone records public to prove that there was no conversation. ESPN piggybacked the story, and when I contacted one of the writers at ESPN covering the story (I forget who, I'll have to look), he basically said "we're not responsible, as we're just printing a story done by Yahoo, and the responsibility falls to them. What a joke.

He lied about cheating, absolutely, and why he did it doesn't matter. As soon as he lied, he should have been suspended. Period. I don't know a single Brewers fan, myself included, who was not miffed when Braun lied about what he did. That he took a substance not on the approved list to expedite healing of a calf muscle injury that had been bothering him all year might have been misguided more than anything, but it was still breaking the rules, and lying to cover it up not only made matters worse, but it reflected poorly on the whole organization. But the fact remains that if the collector had done his job properly, there wouldn't be anything more to the story. But he didn't, and nothing Braun said in his press conference was either untrue, or below the belt. The handling of his sample was questionable, and it did raise valid concerns in the mind of his defense team. The guy had been collecting samples since testing began in MLB, and as somebody that routinely tested Brewer players at Miller Park, he knew where every Fed Ex location between the stadium and his home was located, including one that was open 24 hours, and just five minutes from the park. The last sample collection that day was made at 4:45 pm, and he left the ballpark a little after 5 pm. Laurenzi Jr could have dropped the samples at the 24 hour Fed Ex, as he was required to do per the joint agreement, and been on his way home. Instead he took Braun's sample, and the sample of three other teammates, to his house, where they remained out in the open for nearly two full days (44 hours). They were not secured. They were not refrigerated. And Braun's name was still affixed to the biological sample. The reason why it is vitally important for the collector to do his job properly is to make sure that the sample is not compromised, that there is no degradation of the sample, and that Braun's name is no longer connected to it. As soon as it is received by Fed Ex, a number is attached to the sample, and only the lab, which I believe is in Montreal, knows who the sample belongs to from that point. That didn't happen. The sample was left in a Tupperware container, on the counter top in his basement office, which he said was "sufficiently cool". When the sample was received by the lab, it was noted as intact. But therein lies the problem. A veteran collector, if he wanted to, would know how to mess with the pack if that was his intent (I know this for a fact because the wife of one of my best friends in college worked for a testing lab, and she is well versed in the protocol involved with drug testing). I'm not saying that happened here, and in fact, I am almost certain that it did not. But the fact that there was any chance it could have been immediately calls into question the integrity of the whole process, and that is why Braun's defense team had him say what he did.

Here's a transcript of the Ryan Braun press conference immediately after his suspension was overturned:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/140333483.html

Here is what Braun said, the thing that everybody has been saying is Braun throwing the collector "under the bus."

"Why he didn’t bring it in, I don’t know. On the day that he did finally bring it in, FedEx opened at 7:30. Why didn’t he bring it in until 1:30? I can’t answer that question. Why was there zero documentation? What could have possibly happened to it during that 44-hour period? There were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened.

If you gave a urine sample at work, your livelihood, and the collector, instead of dropping it off where he was supposed to, took it home for two days, leaving it out in the open, not documenting what happened to the sample, and then waited 6 hours until after the drop off facility opened to finally take it in on Monday afternoon, would you be suspicious? What possible reason could the collector have for not doing his job as he was trained, and instructed to do? Look at Braun's verbiage in the same statement:

It states in the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment program that all samples shall be taken immediately to FedEx on the day they’re collected absent unusual circumstances.

Has Dino Laurenzi Jr ever presented the reason why he didn't take the samples to Fed Ex? Was there an emergency?

Here's Laurenzi's statement:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7625756/statement-dino-laurenzi-jr-collected-samples-ryan-braun-case

"Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office. The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident.

Well, he said he took it home, as CDT instructed him. Funny, however, that is not what the JDA outlines as proper procedure:

XI. PROCEDURES AFTER COLLECTION

E. If the specimen is not immediately prepared for shipment, the Collector shall
ensure that it is appropriately safeguarded during temporary storage.

1. The Collector must keep the chain of custody intact.

2. The Collector must store the samples in a cool and secure location.


F. When all of the specimens have been collected at the collection site, the
Collector shall take the specimens in the appropriate packaging to a FedEx
Customer Service Center for shipment. The specimens cannot be placed in a FedEx Drop Box location.

That the Fed Ex locations could not ship on a Saturday is irrelevant. There was a Fed Ex location open until 7 pm, 5 miles from Miller Park, at Fed Ex Plaza in downtown Milwaukee on East Wisconsin Avenue, that accepted packages, including secured biological packs from MLB. He had 2 hours to drive 5 miles, and drop the container off at the secured facility as was required by his job. Yet he didn't do what was required.

That is why Braun said what he did in his press conference. And, by the way, that is a big part of why Braun and his team won the appeal of suspension, which had never happened before. And, that is also why MLB revamped the JDA with more stringent guidelines for collectors, in part.

Ryan Braun didn't "throw anybody under the bus." He didn't assail Laurenzi Jr, didn't sabotage his career. In fact, Braun and his fiancee met with Dino Laurenzi Jr and his wife, and had dinner with them. If everything is good between them, perhaps it's time to stop rehashing old memes that have been proven wildly inaccurate.

Please.

By the way, while ESPN and Yahoo Sports were doing everything they could to smear Ryan Braun's reputation (which actually DID happen, unlike the accusations about Braun's throwing Laurenzi Jr under the bus), they casually ignored all the things that Braun does to help the people of Milwaukee. The countless hours that Braun and his fiance (now wife) Larissa Frasier have given to charitable causes...that doesn't jive well with their "Ryan Braun is the devil" agenda.

[glynparson]

Marty Bergen
Ed Bouchee
Ugueth Urbina

[jbhofmann]

Braun's words...

"I’ve tried to handle the entire situation with honor, with integrity, with class, with dignity and with professionalism because that’s who I am and that’s how I’ve always lived my life."

Yeah, sure.

"If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I’d be the first one to step up and say, ‘I did it.’ By no means am I perfect, but if I’ve ever made any mistakes in my life I’ve taken responsibility for my actions. I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life, that this substance never entered my body at any point."

Integrity? Lol lies.

"I want everybody to ask themselves this question: if you guys went to go get a physical, something you’ve done 20-25 other times in your life, and three weeks later and told you that you were terminally ill with a disease, and it made no sense to you. ‘I feel perfectly fine, nothing’s any different than it’s ever been, this doesn’t make any sense,’ and you look back at the process and you find out that your doctor decided to take your urine sample home for a 44-, 48-hour period, there’s no documentation as to what happened. You don’t know if he left it in the trunk of his car, you don’t know where it could have been or what could have potentially happened to it during that period of time. I can assure you that you would never go back to that doctor, and you would demand a re-test."

Synthetic testosterone isn't a terminal illness.


I realize you are a Brewers fan, but c'mon man, Braun is about as two-faced as they come.

[packs]

The handling of the sample from Braun's defense perspective was smoke and mirrors. It was an easy out excuse. The fact is he cheated. He tried to blame his failed test on the method of collection rather than focusing on the fact that he failed his test because he was caught cheating.

I don't mind fan loyalty. Just be up front.

[PM770]

There were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened.

I'm curious as to what "things" he claimed to have learned about the collector? Does he go any further at that point?

This isn't an attack on the collector's integrity?

[PM770]

If you gave a urine sample at work, your livelihood, and the collector, instead of dropping it off where he was supposed to, took it home for two days, leaving it out in the open, not documenting what happened to the sample, and then waited 6 hours until after the drop off facility opened to finally take it in on Monday afternoon, would you be suspicious?

If I had taken the PED - which we now know Braun did - what would I have to be suspicious of?

He tested positive for a drug he was taking. I don't understand how there could be any true "suspicion" for foul play.

I understand trying to get out of the 50 game suspension and using the legal means he did, but this was dishonesty at least.

And saying "....things that we learned about the collector" is impugning his character, not matter how subtly.

[earlywynnfan]

Unfortunately, it looks like one of the best threads in a while is going to swirl the Braun toilet bowl.

Didn't Braun let a good friend--was it Aaron Rodgers?--publicly announce what a great guy and non-cheater Braun was?

[ALR-bishop]

Not sure if Braun asked Rodgers to defend him, but as I recall Rodgers did "bet" his next year salary that Braun was clean via twitter. Have not heard if he paid off after the admission and if so to whom he paid it :)

[Econteachert205]

No one is going to convince me that Braun isn't a weasel.

[frankbmd]

Unfortunately, it looks like one of the best threads in a while is going to swirl the Braun toilet bowl.

Didn't Braun let a good friend--was it Aaron Rodgers?--publicly announce what a great guy and non-cheater Braun was?

I like the sound of your post.:confused:;):D

Braun's numbers last year suggest that this may be the only HOF to which he will be nominated.:eek:

Vote for him if you choose, but lets not flush the toilet, or at least nicht das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten. ( in deference to Braun's heritage )

Carry on.

[packs]

I'd like to add Denny McClain if not already mentioned.

And former A's Troy Neel. Guy hid out in the south Pacific to avoid paying 8 years of back child support. Truly a dead beat.

[jbhofmann]

Ryan Braun
Alex Rodriguez
Elijah Dukes
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah_Dukes

[Runscott]

Carry on.

...my wayward son.

[Runscott]

Whoa, Braun didn't "sacrifice" anybody. Saying this shows a casual ignorance of the facts in this case, something a lot of people discussing this on the internet are guilty of because they took what ESPN, or Yahoo Sports printed in an article, and accepted it as fact without questioning the veracity of the information being presented (this is not in any way a knock on you personally, Scott).

That's a mouthful, Bill.

I did not need to, or desire to, do the research that you did, and the fact that I didn't, does not invalidate my statement. He was guilty, period, and he tried to push the focus onto someone who was NOT guilty. It was like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and arguing that your Mother was wearing the wrong pair of glasses when she saw you.

[sportscardtheory]

Brian Giles allegedly beat up his pregnant girlfriend, who then miscarried... ON TWO SEPARATE OCCASIONS. Yeah, he belongs right here.

[39special]

Ryan Braun
Alex Rodriguez
Steve Howe

[the 'stache]

If I had taken the PED - which we now know Braun did - what would I have to be suspicious of?

He tested positive for a drug he was taking. I don't understand how there could be any true "suspicion" for foul play.

I understand trying to get out of the 50 game suspension and using the legal means he did, but this was dishonesty at least.

And saying "....things that we learned about the collector" is impugning his character, not matter how subtly.

Except, Braun has never said he took a PED. There is an important distinction between using a PED, a performance enhancing drug used to improve performance, and a banned substance used to expedite healing of an injury. I completely realize that's splitting hairs in the eyes of most baseball fans, but it's an important distinction to Brewer fans. Braun did not take something to cheat the game. Braun's performance on the field, his numbers, the awards he's won, were achieved through his natural ability, and his hard work. He's been tested repeatedly since he was drafted by the Brewers in 2005, all the way through the minor leagues, and in the Majors. Remember the initial story about Braun was that he was going to be suspended for PED use, then the story changed, and Braun was being suspended for a banned substance. That substance still has never been named. Braun only referred to them as a lozenge and cream used to help expedite his rehabilitation. Braun wasn't looking to become a better player, but he was looking to become as close as possible to the player he'd always been.

What did he learn about the collector? That he had been doing that same job since the JDA went into effect in 2005, and was familiar with every Fed Ex location close to Miller Park. They learned that Laurenzi Jr did not do his job as outlined by the JDA, a job he'd been doing for six years at that point. Procedures were very clear-barring any unusual circumstances, he was required to take the biological sample pack to Fed Ex the same day it was collected. He did not.

Is it impugning somebody's character if you say something that is factual? I would say that the collector threw himself under the bus. Again, we know that Braun won his appeal on procedural grounds. That doesn't mean they couldn't have won on scientific grounds, the defense team choose the easiest road to a reversal of the suspension, and they accomplished their intended goal.

Now, again, did Braun cheat? The black and white answer is yes, he did. Absolutely. When Major League Baseball says you can't do x, and you do x, you are breaking the rules. I can spin it any way I want, but I'm not going to do that. Braun broke the rules, and believe me, while I am a Brewer fan, and while I have long been a Ryan Braun fan, I was plenty pissed off at him. I was mad at him when the story first broke that he used a PED (per ESPN). I was more irked at ESPN for printing the story, because if they hadn't violated his rights as established by MLB, we would have never known about this (I still don't know if that's a good or a bad thing). But he broke the rules. Then, he compounded matters by lying about it. I do think he was coached on some of the things he said by his defense team, but ultimately, the buck stops with him. No matter how he was coached, he is a grown man, and responsible for the words that come out of his mouth. If he'd admitted to using the banned substance right away, this whole thing would have washed over by now. It hasn't because he poured more fuel on the fire, and that made me, and a lot of Brewer fans even more angry at him. Remember, as much as you guys dislike Braun now, there are a lot of Brewer fans who have had to listen to all the put downs, not only of Braun, but the Brewers franchise and ownership, too. And there have been a lot of negative things said about Brewer fans, and people in Wisconsin in general. So, trust me when I say that nobody is more sick of this than I am. But as somebody who has had to live with this for over three years, as somebody who has done an awful lot of reading, and research, and separating fact from fiction, the reason I am posting what I am is because much of what has been printed about Braun has been a complete fabrication.

Braun cheated, but lied about it, but people need to understand why he did. The Brewers are a small market team, and we haven't been to the World Series since 1982. Long before this whole mess started, Braun made a commitment to the Brewers, and the people of Wisconsin, that he wanted to bring them a World Series. He has done a lot of good for the people in southeast Wisconsin, and he's invested a lot of his own time, and money, to help improve the city, and help the people that live there. When it became obvious that Prince Fielder was leaving, after the 2011 season, Braun knew they had one shot to get to the World Series. The Brewer front office went all in, and added two front line pitchers. The Brewers were great, and won 96 games. But Braun, who had been battling a severe calf injury all year, was hurting badly by the end of the season. He was not getting better, and he was going to be nowhere near 100% when the post season came around. What he took did help him tremendously. All you have to do is look at the numbers he put up against the Diamondbacks to see that the rehabilitation regiment, combined with the substances he took, did help him heal up. That is why he did what he did, and that is what he said when he admitted fault.

Now, I want to make it very clear that I do not condone what he did. I don't think any Brewer fan worth their own weight would. I love the game of baseball more than anything. I love the game itself even more than I love the Brewers, and I have loved the Brewers for 37 years. Maybe Braun's intentions were good. None of you guys have watched this man play, or watched how he's carried himself throughout his time in Milwaukee like I have. He's been a model citizen, and he's gone above and beyond what the average baseball star would do in the city he plays in. Before the 2011 season, he signed a second extension, which committed him to the Brewers until the 2020 season. He made a lot of money in doing so, but he also took far less to stay in Milwaukee than he would have gotten if he'd signed with the Yankees, or the Dodgers. But, as they say, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. Braun might have made a calculated risk by taking a banned substance in order to heal, and give his team a chance to win the World Series. But he still broke the rules, and no intentions, no matter how good they might be, excuse breaking the rules. If anything, Braun was guilty of making a bad decision. Again, I do not think he tried to cheat the game. Braun has never needed PEDs. All you have to do is watch him play, and see his swing, and the way the ball jumps off his bat, to see that he's a naturally gifted hitter. The guy's got one of the most beautiful swings I've ever seen, and no PED made him into a 5 time Silver Slugger winner, and a three time top 3 MVP finisher.

I was mad at him for a good long time, because he let a lot of people down, myself included. The thrill I got watching him play was something I hadn't felt since Yount was a Brewer. And when he lied, it felt like a slap in the face. But eventually, Braun did the right thing. As he said, MLB never presented the evidence they had. Braun could have fought whatever punitive steps Major League Baseball might have tried to take against him. Their "star witness", Anthony Bosch, certainly was not credible at all. I think ultimately, Ryan just wanted to get out of the viscous cycle he'd created, and come clean. Now, some of you guys will quip "well, he only came clean because he got caught". Well, did he "come clean" the first time? No. If anything, one would think Braun less likely to admit his faults after winning one appeal already. Braun could have fought the Balco investigation, and maybe avoided suspension altogether. But in the end, I think Braun decided to own up to the mistakes he made. Then he went out of his way to make amends with the team ownership, his teammates, and Brewer fans. Now that he's done that, I've decided to give him a second chance. He's not a terrible person. He did some really stupid things, and again, I think the underlying motivation was good, if misguided. Ultimately, the inertia of the situation he created swept him up, and he couldn't get out.

Some people are never going to believe a word he says. That's fine. Every single person has to decide for themselves how they will look at another person. But I think there are a lot of sanctimonious people speaking out against him. People that have probably lied in the past, or done something they wish they could now go back, and handle differently. The difference between them and Ryan Braun is Braun is in the spotlight as a professional athlete, and the people talking crap about Braun on the internet do so under the cover of anonymity the internet creates. I count myself as an ethical person, and honest to a fault. In fact, I've been called a boy scout on more than one occasion. Yet even I have some things I'd like to do over. I am far from perfect, so I'm not going to sit here in judgement over another human being that has admitted the error of their ways. Braun has suffered enough. And as a Brewer fan, I think I have, too.

[packs]

Braun had synthetic testosterone in his system, quoted to be as high as 20:1 by the Daily News, 16 points above what would trigger a positive test.

How is that not a PED?

[the 'stache]

I like the sound of your post.:confused:;):D

Braun's numbers last year suggest that this may be the only HOF to which he will be nominated.:eek:


Um, Braun has been dealing with numbness in his right hand between the thumb and index finger for well over a year. Living in Wisconsin as you do, Frank, I think you've heard about that. Yeah...

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2014/8/28/6075061/ryan-braun-hand-injury-brewers

His drop in numbers have nothing to do with anything he's taken, or not taken, since testing positive for a banned substance. In the first two weeks of the 2014 season, he had a three home run game at Philadelphia, and a two home run game at Pittsburgh, and probably should have been a member of the NL All Star squad this year, even playing with the injury. Braun was hitting .298 with 19 doubles, 6 triples, 11 home runs, 52 RBI and an .863 OPS at the break. He was top ten in the NL in RBI and OPS.

[Runscott]

Braun wasn't looking to become a better player, but he was looking to become as close as possible to the player he'd always been.

Oddly, when he quit using banned substances he became a lesser player. How does that work?

Braun cheated, but lied about it, but people need to understand why he did. The Brewers are a small market team, and we haven't been to the World Series since 1982. Long before this whole mess started, Braun made a commitment to the Brewers, and the people of Wisconsin, that he wanted to bring them a World Series. He has done a lot of good for the people in southeast Wisconsin, and he's invested a lot of his own time, and money, to help improve the city, and help the people that live there.

Well, if it's a small market team and Braun made a commitment, then I totally get it. We should all pitch in and buy him some more 'healing cream'. It's only right.

All you have to do is look at the numbers he put up against the Diamondbacks to see that the rehabilitation regiment, combined with the substances he took, did help him heal up. That is why he did what he did, and that is what he said when he admitted fault.

So I guess his 2014 numbers were because the world traumatized the guy so much that he couldn't be expected to perform as he had in 'the cream' days?

I am far from perfect, so I'm not going to sit here in judgement over another human being that has admitted the error of their ways. Braun has suffered enough. And as a Brewer fan, I think I have, too.

So as long as a liar admits he lied AFTER he is caught, then it's okay? Even ARod managed to do that.

[ALR-bishop]

He is a lying SOS

[sportscardtheory]

*when attempting to lessen a scoundrel's actions backfires*

[the 'stache]

Oddly, when he quit using banned substances he became a lesser player. How does that work?

Except, um, no, he didn't become a "lesser player". He tested positive in the post season of 2011. The only time he has ever used. He was tested exhaustively in 2012, and every single test result was clean.

In 2012, he was the National League MVP runner up, even after this whole steroid scandal, even though the Brewers missed the playoffs. Braun hit .319 with 108 runs scored, 36 doubles, 41 home runs, 112 RBI, 30 stolen bases and a .987 OPS. He led the NL in runs scored, home runs, OPS and total bases. He was second in RBI (losing the RBI title on the last day of the season to Chase Headley), and third in batting average. He missed his own triple crown by 2 RBI and 11 points in his batting average. Not exactly what I would call being a "lesser player".

The nerve issue he's been dealing with crept up a few months into the 2013 season. He was hit on the hand by a fastball, and not long after that, Braun started reporting tingling and numbness in his right hand. The numbness caused him to grip the bat handle too tightly, causing his hand to swell, and turn black and blue. He's undergone cryotherapy injections to freeze the nerve cluster causing the issue this off season, and thus far in off season workouts, he's experienced no pain. Here's an excellent article showing how the injury has affected Braun, and how he's had to change his swing to compensate with the loss of feeling.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2014/8/28/6075061/ryan-braun-hand-injury-brewers

At the time when Braun was hit in 2013, he was having another MVP caliber season. 30 games into the season, Braun was hitting .319 with 8 home runs and 25 RBI. He had a .408 OBP, a .602 SLG, and a 1.010 OPS.

I'm not going to even bother responding to the rest of your post, because you've gone into full smart-ass mode. I've tried responding to your posts rationally, but you no longer want to discuss this in that way. So, have fun.

[the 'stache]

Braun had synthetic testosterone in his system, quoted to be as high as 20:1 by the Daily News, 16 points above what would trigger a positive test.

How is that not a PED?

Braun had synthetic testosterone in his system, quoted to be as high as 20:1 by the Daily News, 16 points above what would trigger a positive test.

How is that not a PED?

The levels demonstrated in Braun's sample were more than twice the highest level that had ever been recorded in the history of drug testing for professional athletes. That should be the first clue that there was something amiss with the sample. The chain of custody was never in question. The exact location of the samples was known the entire time. But for 44 hours, how the sample was stored, is unknown.

Will Carroll, who does reporting for Sports Illustrated, did a few articles about the Braun case. The short answer he gives is this:

The urine sample was contaminated at the time the lab in Montreal accepted it.

Basically, he says once it was shown that procedure was not followed, the lab should have never accepted the sample, and certainly no testing should have been done utilizing the sample.

I wish the Shyam Das opinion that overturned Braun's suspension were made public. As Will Carroll stated, Braun did not get off on a technicality. The defense team used science to exactly replicate the test results, and that in part led to the independent arbiter's overturning of the suspension. Like you, though, I am curious how they addressed the synthetic testosterone presence, because at least one of the markers in his sample was clearly exogenous in nature. However, because of confidentiality requirements still affixed to the process, anything else that Braun may have been taking with a therapeutic use exemption could not be disclosed. When the story was (incorrectly) leaked that he was taking something to treat a STD, I thought that he might have had an exemption to use something which contained a synthetic substance.

It's frustrating to me as a Brewers fan not having a complete answer. I want to know everything, but at the same time, I know that's never going to happen, so some of the questions I'm presented with, I'll have to say quite honestly I do not know. It's very hard to know what was accurate, and what was a fabrication, out of all the information that came out. The long and short of it is that we are not owed an answer. We know Braun used a banned substance of some sort. We know he was to be suspended, and he won his appeal. We know that his name (along with that of at least one of his lawyers) was on the lists uncovered in the Balco Investigation. And, we know that Braun was suspended 65 games, and admitted to using a banned substance.

Beyond that, I don't know if I can say I know anything else is a fact not in dispute.

He is a lying SOS

He absolutely is a liar, Al. You will get no argument from me there, and while I am giving him a second chance (something I would give to almost any other person), he has an awful long way to go before I can trust him again. He's going to have to show me a lot. As far as I am concerned, he's on probation. I will cheer for him on the field, because he is a member of our team.

[Runscott]

I'm not going to even bother responding to the rest of your post, because you've gone into full smart-ass mode.

You started it, Bill. I thought that was your preferred mode of communication;however, the above statement was an easy out for avoiding the questions you couldn't respond to intelligently.

[the 'stache]

You started it, Bill. I thought that was your preferred mode of communication;however, the above statement was an easy out for avoiding the questions you couldn't respond to intelligently.

Really? Where exactly did I start it? And what question have I not responded to honestly, calmly, and intelligently?

I'm not exonerating Ryan Braun. Far from it. I think I've been pretty clear in my condemnation of his actions. How many times do I have to say that yes, he broke the rules, yes, I have been angry with him, and, yes, he should have been immediately suspended? I'm sorry if I'm not going to let the "Braun sacrificed a man who was doing his job" spiel go without calling it out. He didn't do his job, that's kind of the point. If the collector had done his job, Braun would have been suspended, no? There would have been no procedural grounds for Shyam Das to overturn the suspension. If Dino Laurenzi, Jr had driven the 5 miles to the Fed Ex location on East Wisconsin Avenue, and given the biological pack to the Fed Ex employee as he had done hundreds of times before, Braun would have been suspended. Braun would have never self-righteously lied in front of reporters, and people around the country wouldn't have a seat reserved in the eighth circle of hell for Braun, right next to Adolf Hitler and Judas.

[Kenny Cole]

Bill,

When the inquistion starts, defenders end up being burned too. That's just an historical fact.

Scott,

I often agree with you, sometimes not. On occasion, you come across as an asshole. I do too. We probably both need to work on our presentation while staying true to our beliefs. Its difficult to do. Best,

Kenny

[Runscott]

Really? Where exactly did I start it? And what question have I not responded to honestly, calmly, and intelligently?

I'm not exonerating Ryan Braun. Far from it. I think I've been pretty clear in my condemnation of his actions. How many times do I have to say that yes, he broke the rules, yes, I have been angry with him, and, yes, he should have been immediately suspended? I'm sorry if I'm not going to let the "Braun sacrificed a man who was doing his job" spiel go without calling it out. He didn't do his job, that's kind of the point. If the collector had done his job, Braun would have been suspended, no? There would have been no procedural grounds for Shyam Das to overturn the suspension. If Dino Laurenzi, Jr had driven the 5 miles to the Fed Ex location on East Wisconsin Avenue, and given the biological pack to the Fed Ex employee as he had done hundreds of times before, Braun would have been suspended. Braun would have never self-righteously lied in front of reporters, and people around the country wouldn't have a seat reserved in the eighth circle of hell for Braun, right next to Adolf Hitler and Judas.

I think you took this all way too personally. In response to Kenny, I didn't burn you at the stake for defending Braun - if I lit any matches, it was for your reference that I was posting out of ignorance, which simply wasn't true. The comments about Braun were only about Braun - not about Milwaukee and certainly not about you. Any judging we do of you is based entirely on your posts here - not on the team you support. You seem like a nice enough guy, and you are certainly very studious. I very much appreciate your sharing your research, and that goes for the stuff you posted here about Braun (which I read). But my thoughts about him haven't changed.

I'm also very happy that Kenny and I haven't gotten into it for quite some time :)

[Jason]

Im going with all C's

Comiskey
Curtis
Clemens

[Kenny Cole]

Scott,

LOL, as am I.

[Paul S]

There is an important distinction between using a PED, a performance enhancing drug used to improve performance, and a banned substance used to expedite healing of an injury.

Hi Bill. What is the distinction? What would you tell the athletes that heal naturally? "Sorry, Dude?"

[Econteachert205]

True confession: Denny McClain May be a scoundrel, but I think he's great. His bio is a great movie waiting to happen and when I read about the stuff he pulled I can't help but chuckle. Be honest, I think most board members have their own favorite scoundrel they can't help but love, for some it might be pete rose, or doc gooden or shoeless joe.

plus guys named Dennis stick together

[bnorth]

Ryan Braun Bill convinced me.
Mark McGwire
Kirby Puckett Great guy during playing days, Horrible man afterwards.

[jbhofmann]

The levels demonstrated in Braun's sample were more than twice the highest level that had ever been recorded in the history of drug testing for professional athletes. That should be the first clue that there was something amiss with the sample.

"It's possible that no one has ever tested that high in baseball, but Don Catlin, the former director for the Olympic lab at UCLA who is considered the father of performance-enhancing drug testing, said he has seen cases that exceeded 100-to-1. A 20-to-1 ratio, he and others said, is not unusual in a positive test."

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/OTL-Ryan-Braun/ryan-braun-defense-raises-more-questions-doping-experts

[the 'stache]

I think you took this all way too personally. In response to Kenny, I didn't burn you at the stake for defending Braun - if I lit any matches, it was for your reference that I was posting out of ignorance, which simply wasn't true. The comments about Braun were only about Braun - not about Milwaukee and certainly not about you. Any judging we do of you is based entirely on your posts here - not on the team you support. You seem like a nice enough guy, and you are certainly very studious. I very much appreciate your sharing your research, and that goes for the stuff you posted here about Braun (which I read). But my thoughts about him haven't changed.

I'm also very happy that Kenny and I haven't gotten into it for quite some time :)

Scott, I apologize profusely. I wasn't meaning to say that you were posting about him out of ignorance, and I tried (unsuccessfully) to clarify that my post wasn't meant to single you out. What I meant to say is your statement about Braun is one that is often made by other people who demonstrate that they are ignorant of the facts, relying solely on a few talking points that have been repeated ad nauseam. Even after things have been proven 100% false--completely devoid of any factual merit whatsoever, like the Jeff Passan article about Braun calling Tulowitzki, Kemp and Votto for support--people still throw that out there at every opportunity. I'm seeing less talk about Braun online now, as this has died down somewhat, but whenever this whole debacle comes up somewhere, invariably the "Braun trashed Laurenzi Jr's reputation, calling him an anti-semitic Cubs fan, and got him fired", or something along those lines still comes up, and it's maddening. It's a lot like when I get into what starts out as a friendly political debate with people online. The world wide web has created an interesting phenomena, the "internet expert". One example I can remember clearly was somebody who didn't have even the most rudimentary grasp of how the legislative branch of our government works calling a professor of political science at Chicago University "an idiot". This guy actually called the tenured professor, who, if my memory serves me correctly, had a PhD in Constitutional Law from Stanford University, an idiot when he pointed out that members of the United States Senate serve six year terms, not four year terms. All I could do was laugh.

But anyway, when I get into really drawn out thoughts, Scott, I sometimes get tripped up, and don't effectively communicate what I am trying to say. I am on so many different medications right now, and they all work together to mess with my head just a little, and sometimes that is enough. Please accept my apology. You are certainly entitled to whatever opinion you may hold. I try to present facts, and let whomever I am speaking with review those facts, and draw their own conclusions.

[the 'stache]

Hi Bill. What is the distinction? What would you tell the athletes that heal naturally? "Sorry, Dude?"

Hi, Paul.

I would tell any Major League player who is using only approved substances, and employing accepted rehabilitation methods that they are doing it the right way, and that they honor the game they play.

What Braun did was wrong. Ryan Braun may have been the most important player on the 2011 Milwaukee Brewers. In fact, I don't think that's really debatable. But that didn't give him the right to take a substance banned by Major League baseball to expedite his healing. He may be a special talent, but he does not in any way deserve preferential treatment when it comes to the application of the rules established by MLB. The very first time he took something that the League said he could not take, he cheated the game. He sullied his reputation, the reputation of the team, and the franchise. And, he sullied the game itself. What he did is not ok, not in the slightest, and I want to make that absolutely clear. It matters not how he rationalized it. Every year, Major League teams lose players that are vital to the success of the franchise they have been a part of. I can only imagine how Braun felt knowing that his friend, and longtime teammate was leaving. Imagine if you were a baseball player, an MVP caliber player, and your friend and teammate, himself an MVP caliber player, was leaving at the end of the season. Imagine knowing that you had one last shot to win it all with the team the franchise had so carefully constructed. Now imagine that in that final year, you had a calf injury that cause you chronic pain, every single day, and diminished your ability to play baseball at your normal high level. I can only imagine how frustrating that must have been, especially when the months of rehabilitation, and countless meetings with team doctors, and physical therapists were not resolving the issue.

But none of that gives Braun the right to take matters into his own hands, and if he called me up to apologize, I would tell him that I was giving him a chance to redeem himself. But I would also tell him that he disappointed me greatly, and he has a long way to go before I will ever trust him again.

[the 'stache]

"It's possible that no one has ever tested that high in baseball, but Don Catlin, the former director for the Olympic lab at UCLA who is considered the father of performance-enhancing drug testing, said he has seen cases that exceeded 100-to-1. A 20-to-1 ratio, he and others said, is not unusual in a positive test."

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/OTL-Ryan-Braun/ryan-braun-defense-raises-more-questions-doping-experts

Joel, I don't doubt what this lab director is saying. I was merely reposting what has been repeated numerous times by different news sources. These different media sources have said that Braun's levels were more than twice as high as any other recorded before. Whether that's 20-to-1, or 100-to-1, I am not a scientist. You could hold a gun to my head, and I couldn't tell you what was a high test result, and what was a normal test result. Remember, too, that Braun's first sample underwent two different tests. Perhaps it was the second one showing a 20 to 1 ratio, and the first test was the one demonstrating super high levels?

Here's one of the stories I am referring to, from the New York Daily News:

Ryan Braun’s initial PED test results were ‘insanely high,’ NL MVP’s lawyer insists client did not take PEDs
Outfielder's test results were twice the level of highest test ever taken: source (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ryan-braun-initial-ped-test-results-insanely-high-nl-mvp-lawyer-insists-client-not-peds-article-1.990020)

Milwaukee Brewers star Ryan Braun’s original test for performance-enhancing drugs as the playoffs were winding down in October was “insanely high, the highest ever for anyone who has ever taken a test, twice the level of the highest test ever taken,” said a source familiar with the developing case in which the outfielder was reported to have tested positive for an elevated level of testosterone caused by a synthetic substance, triggering a possible 50-game suspension if the test results are upheld.

The never-before-seen ratio, according to the source, is one of several “highly unusual circumstances” Braun’s camp has referred to when adamantly denying that he is year’s National League Most Valuable Player ingested a performance-enhancing drug that caused the positive test.

There is no ratio stated in this report. But I will say that I have seen verbiage quite similar to that which was used in this report several times before, even with specifics as to the levels.

I must also state that I have learned to take anything posted by ESPN, especially by T.J. Quinn, with a grain of salt. They have been out to smear Braun from the very beginning, completely ignoring things that have come out to discredit negative things posted about him (ie the comments made by Joey Votto offering to make his phone records public to prove that he never spoke to Braun on the phone).

[Jason]

In with Jekyll out with Hyde.

[frankbmd]

A new day is dawning and I'm sure everyone has fresh thoughts on their scoundrels in the closet.

My thought concerns what the list would look like without the PEDiatric scoundrels. Below are the top eleven.

Rose
Cobb
Urbina
Bergen
Anson
Chase
Hall, Mel
Landis
Gandil
Jackson, Joe
Miller, Marvin

Recent history we all have lived through.
Prewar history we live through our cards and collections.

The results of this thread are not surprising and should have been anticipated.

I suggested in the construct of this thread that three scoundrels should be nominated from different eras and perhaps there should have been three lists (or more) to reflect those eras.

I also should have expected a dog fight, to wit arguments for or against any scoundrel could have been limited to 50 words or less (but what fun would that have been).

No changes in midstream rules will be instituted. Que sera, sera?

Did you know that Doris Day is still alive and that her real name is Kappelhoff?

[ALR-bishop]

Everyone knows that...but did you know that Albert Brooks is really Albert Einstein.

And I have been to Thailand a couple of times and never got anything from you while there

[ejharrington]

No way Dave Kingman should be on this list. He's a big teddy bear.

Long live the Sky King!