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sniffy5
12-20-2014, 09:10 PM
I think just about everyone at this point, 1914 CJ collectors or otherwise, have pretty much gotten tired of talking about and hearing about this set. It's very popular and very cool, and I'm sure most agree. But I'd really like to hear the opinions of all the learned vintage card gurus that make this site so critical and important to the hobby: What is with the low pops? Should we think 95% of the cards got thrown out right away? (And I'm sure the card backs are lying about numbers to begin with). Or is it a case where the cards were only packaged for a month or two as prizes, thus very limited? Single prints and double prints happening as well? I know there are no sure answers, but with a set that was allegedly distributed nationally, why do only 50 or so, on average, exist for each card? What is going on there?

Leon
12-20-2014, 10:44 PM
I think just about everyone at this point, 1914 CJ collectors or otherwise, have pretty much gotten tired of talking about and hearing about this set. It's very popular and very cool, and I'm sure most agree. But I'd really like to hear the opinions of all the learned vintage card gurus that make this site so critical and important to the hobby: What is with the low pops? Should we think 95% of the cards got thrown out right away? (And I'm sure the card backs are lying about numbers to begin with). Or is it a case where the cards were only packaged for a month or two as prizes, thus very limited? Single prints and double prints happening as well? I know there are no sure answers, but with a set that was allegedly distributed nationally, why do only 50 or so, on average, exist for each card? What is going on there?

Some of the low 1914 population has to be due to the thin, almost paper-like, stock they were printed on.

GregMitch34
12-20-2014, 10:57 PM
Some had so much caramel on them--kids ate them as snack?

rainier2004
12-21-2014, 08:47 AM
Classic topic by a classic collector...and a nice guy.

I always thought the printing came in 2 waves, #s 1-72 and then the final 72 cards. I based this on looking at overall pops and those really tough numbers seem to mostly fall in the second group. I think they either a) produced the same number of all 144 card and dumped the second printing or they second printing was never as big as the first.

As Leon said, horrible, fragile stock on those 1914s so many were destroyed. We see a similar pattern in the pops of HOFers related to "commons" as there are a ton of Jax, Matty, Cobbs, etc but few of the Cadys, Pratt, and other no namers...they just got chucked.

CJ was also distributing other items as well at this time and creates another variable IMO. I really think that second series is a big part of all this.

sniffy5
12-21-2014, 09:30 AM
Thanks Steve!! Yes, all you said about the cards is true. We can also factor in the idea that primarily children ate the Cracker Jacks, as opposed to the adults who smoked and were more apt to collect and keep cigarette cards. But still having said all that, and all that has been said already, I still don't understand why so few survived. I personally believe that, judging from the quality of the paper used for the 1914's, the folks at Cracker Jack did not really take the "card as a prize" promotion very seriously. I very much doubt the cards were distributed for an entire baseball season, or nationally. If that were the case, there would be more around.

The fact that CJ essentially reprinted the exact set the following year, and indeed took it quite seriously, what with the album, and mail away sets, and better card stock kinda indicates that they were making them readily available to everyone who wanted them across the country. In other words, meeting a demand that was not met the previous year. Based on these facts, I bet that the 1914's were extremely limited to begin with.

rainier2004
12-21-2014, 08:46 PM
I can go along with the demand theory based on the thin stock and obvious upgrade the following year. They also took the time to update teams changes and add another 32 players although most were insignificant and points more in the direction of increased demand.

On the distribution though, there are roughly 3xs as many 1915s as 1914s...contrary to popular belief the 1915s aren't as plentiful as some seem to think and there are definitely harder cards to find in the set. I always thought the geographic pattern of both years would have been similar, baseball was only represented my certain areas. CJ would have simply upped the supply the following year. 3xs to me when total pops of cards from the 1915 set are still in the 60s, just isn't a ton of cards being produced. Kids did open these packages, I would agree that more should survive then. I just don't think that many were produced, I believe there were 2 prints in the 1914s and I think there are still some pockets of 1914s unknown to the hobby.

Theo_450
12-21-2014, 10:35 PM
I inherited an originally collected group of about 300 cards from 1910 to 1915. It included ~150 T206s and regular caramel cards, about 145 CJ 1915s, and only 5 CJ 1914s. They are indeed more scarce than the others. I believe the thin stock and caramel coating plays a large part in their availability today. A couple of the 1914 CJs were in a terrible state, caramel turns green eventually!

vtgmsc
12-21-2014, 10:54 PM
Can we dare say that 1914 CJs were the ultimate "test set" leading to all of the innovative changes in 1915 which were discussed earlier including albums, mail aways. etc...

mike

KCRfan1
12-21-2014, 11:33 PM
The cards may have been distributed " nationally ", but I wonder what the definition of nationally was in 1914. National distribution in 2014 is coast to coast and boarder to boarder, and everywhere in between. In 1914, did national distribution really cover coast to coast, or was it to the Mississippi River from the east coast? How many people in LA, SF, Denver, Seattle, Portland, Phoenix ect. were snacking on CJ and pulling a card out of the box? I imagine very few were. The population base was east of the MS. River, and that IMO, would be the primary, if not all of the distribution of CJ.

Bigb13
12-22-2014, 10:38 AM
This set is almost impossible to complete. I have been working on it for over 20 yrs. Out of the 144 I have 102 different ones with upgrades I have 175 1914's but missing 42 to complete the set.

sniffy5
12-22-2014, 10:41 AM
Yep, I think most would agree that the CJ's in 1914 were distributed east of the Mississippi River. And that not many were available or even produced. And again, the 1914's are not really even cards. They were advertised as pictures, not cards, and really, as is known by anyone who has held one, they are really just paper. The company did not really seem to take the card promotion all that seriously, at least in 1914. But having said all that, the card backs do somewhat encourage kids to complete the set. Also, whoever did the art on the cards certainly took their jobs seriously, because most of the cards are really quite beautiful. Ironically, in 1915, when the company was a bit more into the baseball card thing, the cards added after #144 do not appear to be the works of art of 1914,IMHO..

sniffy5
12-22-2014, 11:09 AM
Actually, the 1914 backs do actually refer to them as both "pictures" and "cards."

Bigb13
12-22-2014, 05:22 PM
I see the new thing on EBay is stating very low pop. Under what number is low pop?

sniffy5
12-22-2014, 06:35 PM
Well, the population reports of 1914's are a bit off due to unrecorded crossovers. The actual populations of graded cards is lower than what the sites say. The current eBay fad of listing 1914's under the moniker of "low pop" is in some cases true but at other times smacks of attempting to prey on naive buyers.

Bigb13
12-22-2014, 06:57 PM
I still need 42 cards for a complete set tough as hell.

RichR
12-23-2014, 07:15 AM
Funny how times change as when I first started collecting the 1914/15 sets were pretty dead lol

GregMitch34
12-23-2014, 11:06 AM
BigB, you should take the opportunity to list the 42 you need, and grading company, who knows someone might lend you a hand...

Bigb13
12-23-2014, 01:37 PM
I will put up a list of what I need. But back to the printing of these cards I think the first 72 came out on sheets of 8by9 then halfway through season they printed the second 72 cards by then kids were on the something else so many I think we're unsold.

sniffy5
12-23-2014, 02:06 PM
Well, that's the 1952 Topps story. But it's apples and oranges comparing '52 Topps and 1914 CJ's. Maybe popcorn and gum is more apt. Cracker Jack boxes did not let buyers know what prize was inside. A kid couldn't opt for a different prize the way kids in Sept. 1952 could opt for a pack of Football cards instead of a pack of baseball cards. Nonetheless, for whatever reason, a very stingy number of Series 2 cards were produced, no question about that.

GregMitch34
12-23-2014, 02:28 PM
And then the other question, why did they STOP after 1915?

Bigb13
12-23-2014, 03:01 PM
And another question if they were just adding cards then why change some poses not all like Matty Pratt and others and why replace some players it can't be because they didn't like candy? Like Wagner in T206 was against smoking.

1952boyntoncollector
12-23-2014, 03:26 PM
And then the other question, why did they STOP after 1915?


cracker jack didn't stop..they had cards in the 1980s so only like 65 year delay...less than 10 in dog years..

sniffy5
12-23-2014, 04:01 PM
They probably ceased production b/c procuring contracts, paying players, etc.. was not up their alley. Too much effort. Much easier to throw in some plastic toy. Even by 1915, their product was selling gangbusters anyway, regardless of what prize was included. I truly believe that some sort of prize held massive allure for little kids (and that remains to this day, btw), but the product sold well and stood alone. We are lucky they ventured into the card business at all.

Bigb13
12-24-2014, 01:07 PM
I needs numbers 6 19 20 22 36 37 39 40 62 66 68 70 73 77 78 80 82 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 93 94 95 97 101 102 103 109 111 113 114 115 118 119 123 124 131 135 136 137 139 141 142. Rob

Bigb13
12-24-2014, 08:08 PM
Thanks to a board member I can cross off Merkle. 172468

Bigb13
12-30-2014, 10:22 PM
I also think they were right first 72 cards had 10 million so 10 m divided by 72 the second series of 72 cards only had 5 million made so that would be 5mlion divided 72. Second series less cards.

ajjohnsonsoxfan
01-05-2016, 10:49 PM
this has some pretty interesting details.

http://www.baseballintheattic.com/pdf/candysnack.pdf