Ron and Khyber Oser leave Legendary for Huggins

[Peter_Spaeth]

subtitle, Khyber takes a pass.
May not bode well for the future of Legendary?

[keithsky]

I don't blame these guys for leaving Legendary. If I worked there I would get out before they implode. Working for a company that has all the contoversy I wouldn't want to deal with all the crap that is going on over there. If the guys that run Legendary go to jail you'd be looking for a job anyway so you might as well move on now.

[Fred]

I used to like Ron Oser's auctions. I think I still have an auction catalog or two from his auctions. The sad part is the "guilt by association" stigma of workingfor Legendary (Mastro and MastroNet).

Good move for the Osers!

[calvindog]

May not bode well for the future of Legendary?

Understatement of the century. When Doug Allen isn't obstructing justice, ripping off his friends and double-crossing the FBI, he's not getting the consignments that Mastro/Legendary used to get. Somehow I think the hobby can live without an auction house specializing in Horrors of War cards.

[Exhibitman]

subtitle, Khyber takes a pass.
May not bode well for the future of Legendary?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/animal%20house%20calm.jpg

[slidekellyslide]

Understatement of the century. When Doug Allen isn't obstructing justice, ripping off his friends and double-crossing the FBI, he's not getting the consignments that Mastro/Legendary used to get. Somehow I think the hobby can live without an auction house specializing in Horrors of War cards.

I had no idea they were still up and running...got dropped from the catalog list long ago...was surprised to see someone make a "Legendary pickups" thread. Who in their right mind would feel safe consigning to that outfit at this point..they have to be awful close to sentencing.

[jefferyepayne]

I had no idea they were still up and running...got dropped from the catalog list long ago...was surprised to see someone make a "Legendary pickups" thread. Who in their right mind would feel safe consigning to that outfit at this point..they have to be awful close to sentencing.

And who in their right mind would continue to be part of the problem instead of the solution by consigning or bidding in their auctions anyway? Time for collectors to clean up the hobby. If not us, then who?

I've been boycotting Legendary for a year and encourage everybody to just stop bidding. No bids = out of business.

jeff

[calvindog]

And who in their right mind would continue to be part of the problem instead of the solution by consigning or bidding in their auctions anyway? Time for collectors to clean up the hobby. If not us, then who?

I've been boycotting Legendary for a year and encourage everybody to just stop bidding. No bids = out of business.

jeff

Bill and Doug stole plenty of money for themselves by shill bidding their own auctions and committing all sorts of other fraud; however, plenty of consignors conspired with them by shilling up their own lots, knowing they could get away with it with Doug and Bill at the helm of Mastro. So you ask for collectors to clean up the hobby when it is the collectors themselves who are part of the fraud as well.

[Runscott]

And who in their right mind would continue to be part of the problem instead of the solution by consigning or bidding in their auctions anyway? Time for collectors to clean up the hobby. If not us, then who?

I've been boycotting Legendary for a year and encourage everybody to just stop bidding. No bids = out of business.

jeff

The Legendary employees who were convicted are going to prison. The ones who weren't are trying to get an auction house back on its feet. I don't see how punishing the remaining employees serves any purpose.

[Runscott]

Bill and Doug stole plenty of money for themselves by shill bidding their own auctions and committing all sorts of other fraud; however, plenty of consignors conspired with them by shilling up their own lots, knowing they could get away with it with Doug and Bill at the helm of Mastro. So you ask for collectors to clean up the hobby when it is the collectors themselves who are part of the fraud as well.

My guess is that MOST consignors shill their own auctions, regardless of the auction house. It would be great if, as collectors, we gave all of our support to the auction houses that show that they do their best to prevent consignor shilling, but all consignors have to do to get around that is find friends to bid on their items.

So you are left with policing the actual auction house. That's been done to Legendary in a substantial way, so I would think they are now one of the least likely to shill their own auctions.

[Fred]

Jeff,

You're right about bidders shilling their own lots. I knew someone that told me they were doing just that. I was dumbfounded when I heard that.

[Runscott]

Jeff,

You're right about bidders shilling their own lots. I knew someone that told me they were doing just that. I was dumbfounded when I heard that.

Dumbfounded? I'm dumbfounded that you were dumbfounded.

I bet the auction house actually got mad at me when my lot ended with a shitty final bid;i.e-why didn't I have the sense to play the game properly?

[bobbyw8469]

I bet the auction house actually got mad at me when my lot ended with a shitty final bid;i.e-why didn't I have the sense to play the game properly?


Amen brother!! I have had so many of my consignments sell for rock bottom prices as well!

[Fred]

Scott,

It's not easy for me to find dumb, I get to look in the mirror every morning and do my best Forrest Gump... The person told me this back when Mastro Auctions was going strong. I think it was before it turned to MastroNet. In any case I'll shock you by saying I was "shocked" to hear it....

[HRBAKER]

Scott,

It's not easy for me to find dumb, I get to look in the mirror every morning and do my best Forrest Gump... The person told me this back when Mastro Auctions was going strong. I think it was before it turned to MastroNet. In any case I'll shock you by saying I was "shocked" to hear it....

Yes, Fred shame on you for not assuming everyone in the hobby is a crook. :)

[turtleguy64]

Jeff,no surprise here.Their veep Jeff Marren did the intro of their just completed auction catalogue.It sounded like his goodbye.Now the Osers gone,leaving a rudderless ship.We may have seen the last of Legendary.and to boot a now brewing controversy as they pulled their feature item-rookie Gretsky game uniform -out of the catalogue just as the final day of bidding was starting. It's over.

[Jay Wolt]

and to boot a now brewing controversy as they pulled their feature item-rookie Gretsky game uniform -out of the catalogue just as the final day of bidding was starting. It's over.
But the Gretzky jersey is still up on auction and ends in 27 days

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/1979_80_Wayne_Gretzky_Edmonton_Oilers_Game_Worn_Ro-LOT169421.aspx

[toppcat]

I'll miss their past auctions gallery.....

[Runscott]

Yes, Fred shame on you for not assuming everyone in the hobby is a crook. :)

Jeff, do you actually assume that EVERYONE in the hobby is a crook?

Hopefully not. I'm not even sure that the consensus of forum members believe that there is anything wrong with shilling your own auctions.

[HRBAKER]

Jeff, do you actually assume that EVERYONE in the hobby is a crook?

Hopefully not. I'm not even sure that the consensus of forum members believe that there is anything wrong with shilling your own auctions.

No Scott.

I am willing to give the vast majority of the members of this forum credit for believing shilling their own auctions is wrong.

What I will say is that I believe the majority of hobbyists aren't bothered enough by the misdeeds of others to stop doing business with them. And I think they (the others) know this and have counted on it for years.

There's just something about this stuff of ours.

[calvindog]

I am willing to give the vast majority of the members of this forum credit for believing shilling their own auctions is wrong.

.

I wish this were true but I don't think it is. Yes, most collectors who don't consign cards believe shilling is bad; many who do consign expensive cards either engage in shill bidding or condone it. I would guess easily more than half.

[Runscott]

No Scott.

I am willing to give the vast majority of the members of this forum credit for believing shilling their own auctions is wrong.

What I will say is that I believe the majority of hobbyists aren't bothered enough by the misdeeds of others to stop doing business with them. And I think they (the others) know this and have counted on it for years.

There's just something about this stuff of ours.

I give them credit for understanding that shilling is wrong, but I still believe that most of them do it. And I do believe that plenty of forum members believe it's okay - while they haven't stated it outright, I think the discussions we've had about crooked ebay sellers have told us a lot about what people here are willing to do in order to get top dollar for their consignments.

As far as being bothered by the misdeeds of others, I have no idea who in particular are shilling their own auctions, and it's really impossible to stop doing business with all hobbyists. If we stopped doing business with any Auction House that permitted it, we would have to stop doing business with all auction houses, as it's impossible for them to keep consignors from getting their friends to shill for them. That would leave you just trading with your most trusted friends and buying cards at flea markets.

I think the Legendary convictions were a good start. But I don't know, any more than you do, which auction houses are still shilling their own auctions.

[CMIZ5290]

I wish this were true but I don't think it is. Yes, most collectors who don't consign cards believe shilling is bad; many who do consign expensive cards either engage in shill bidding or condone it. I would guess easily more than half.

Jeff-you can rule me out big time. I just lost my ass on several T206s with Robert Edwards (it will be the last time with that auction) in their Fall auction. Maybe I'm an idiot....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kevin, hard for me to believe you would have done better elsewhere. I am guessing REA attracts more eyes than anyone.

[turtleguy64]

true,but as Legendary noted in pulling the jersey until Dec.,they are doing more research.a little late for that when it's your featured money getter in the auction.

[ksabet]

On the flip side it also seems like a strong move for H&S. The guys there are great and just got better.

[Runscott]

On the flip side it also seems like a strong move for H&S. The guys there are great and just got better.

Are the Osers photo guys?

[Exhibitman]

With apologies to The Clash:
I've been very tempted to grab it from the till.
I've been very hungry but not enough to shill.

[jefferyepayne]

The Legendary employees who were convicted are going to prison. The ones who weren't are trying to get an auction house back on its feet. I don't see how punishing the remaining employees serves any purpose.

Ummm. Who owns Legendary?

jeff

[gnaz01]

Are the Osers photo guys?

Khyber is

[1952boyntoncollector]

Still amazes me to hear people saying an auction like robert edwards that advertises and has a member list of the people who buy old cards ends up selling a card at 'rock bottom prices' easy for a seller to say that..

but as a buyer i would say thats 'market price' for that piece of cardboard..thats the highest bid..not on craiglist in a sale in a mother's attic..but on an internet weeks long auction with the most well heeled people bidding..

now you could say 'market price without shill bidding'..

i do wonder if you shill bid and 'win' your item.what happens? you just pay 20% and keep your card? that seems to take all of the market price profit out of it..

[bbcard1]

As to the shilling question, I'd never do it. Probably half the stuff i have consigned at auction houses have sold for less than I would have paid for it...of course the other half is where the good stuff happens.

[1952boyntoncollector]

right...50% good and 50% bad...we always here of the bad sells at auction..not the the good ones.....breaking even is good in a casino and for a hobbyist in cards.....actually breaking even is really good...losing a little money is good...breaking even is really good.

[turtleguy64]

who owns Legendary ? doesn't matter.look for a dissolving of the company shortly.don't see them posting a schedule of events after this Nov. 23rd in Chicago.the name is besmirched like the Mastro name.you don't come back from that .

[Runscott]

Ummm. Who owns Legendary?

jeff

Jeff - boycott whoever you please. No one's going to think any less, or more of you.

[Runscott]

Still amazes me to hear people saying an auction like robert edwards that advertises and has a member list of the people who buy old cards ends up selling a card at 'rock bottom prices' easy for a seller to say that..

but as a buyer i would say thats 'market price' for that piece of cardboard..thats the highest bid..not on craiglist in a sale in a mother's attic..but on an internet weeks long auction with the most well heeled people bidding..

now you could say 'market price without shill bidding'..

i do wonder if you shill bid and 'win' your item.what happens? you just pay 20% and keep your card? that seems to take all of the market price profit out of it..

Market price is NOT the result of a single auction. You can argue all day about that one, but it simply isn't true. I sold an item for $3,100 that had previously sold at least twice for $6,000 or more. The market price didn't go from $6,000 to $3,100 overnight. If the card were put back in auction tomorrow with a reserve of $6,000 and I bid and won it back, would that change the market value back to $6,000? No.

REA is not any more immune to auction anomalies than any other auction house. They have things that we have seen go for twice what we thought market value is. And yes, they have had things go for rock bottom prices.

What happens if you (or one of your shillers) win your own auction? You get to keep owning it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In the context of most of what we collect here, the concept of "market price" isn't really meaningful.

[1952boyntoncollector]

is there any reason to not feel safe sending a check to the Legendary Auction and not receiving an item won ?


they dont accept credit card or paypal

[mordecaibrown]

I've noticed a few people in this thread stating that they recently sold items that sold at low prices at a few different auction houses.

I believe that one of the lesser spoken about issues caused by shill bidding is a false value of an item. For instance, if a card sells for a $1000 in an auction but was shilled up to this amount, most buyers do not realize it was shilled to that value and assume a recent value for this card is $1000; however, without shilling, perhaps the card was really around $750.

Well, now this card (same grade) is auctioned in the future at another auction house. There are two possibilities: 1. If the auction house is dirty - they shill it up to the $1000 mark with the following result - buyer happy(bought a card at recent sales mark, seller happy sold card at recent mark, and house happy - optimized profit and look like a competitive auction house for future consignors. OR 2. Auction house is clean and does not shill and sells card at $750 with following results - buyer very happy and seller disappointed and going to different auction house in future.

Then future consignors go back to shilling auction houses because they want to optimize their sale and thinking clean auction house at fault. BUT - the clean auction house did optimize their sale - it was just sold at real market value and many of the previous sales were inflated due to shilling and causing the seller to have false hopes on value.

Shilling auctions causes many issues - one being false market value of items. Then when an auction house does not meet previous sales - people assume it was their fault. With shilling occurring in auction houses and ebay - when an item sells for less than it has previously, it may just have sold at the real (unskilled) market value by an honest businessman.

Hope this rambling made some sense.

[jefferyepayne]

Jeff - boycott whoever you please. No one's going to think any less, or more of you.

My only point is that whomever owns Legendary benefits from its continuation. I don't think looking at the employees and helping them keep things going is the right focus as the profits go to the shareholders. My understand is Doug Allen and other former Mastro employees started the company and likely still own the majority. Helping Legendary continue on simply helps these people, who are now indicted, continue to profit from this mess.

I'm not looking for people to think more or less of anyone on this board, just to act. I get tired of all of the people on boards who are appalled at shill bidding, crooked auction houses, shady dealers, etc. but who when it comes right down to it won't put their money where their mouth is. To each their own but don't expect things to ever get better if you're not willing to be part of the solution.

jeff

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff, unlikely to happen. As has been said many times, stuff trumps all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

is there any reason to not feel safe sending a check to the Legendary Auction and not receiving an item won ?


they dont accept credit card or paypal

You'll be fine. If not you can always write a letter to the judge. :D

[1952boyntoncollector]

Then future consignors go back to shilling auction houses because they want to optimize their sale and thinking clean auction house at fault. BUT - the clean auction house did optimize their sale - it was just sold at real market value and many of the previous sales were inflated due to shilling and causing the seller to have false hopes on value.

Shilling auctions causes many issues - one being false market value of items. Then when an auction house does not meet previous sales - people assume it was their fault. With shilling occurring in auction houses and ebay - when an item sells for less than it has previously, it may just have sold at the real (unskilled) market value by an honest businessman.

Hope this rambling made some sense.[/QUOTE]

--right..so the problem is the honest auction houses go out of business..but that reallly not a problem for the buyers....the buyer is overpaying based on one bid above them....buyers will start to look at price points several bids below to be safe with bids.....you can always adjust as a buyer and just refuse to bid..that will get prices down....but between auction houses thats a tough issue

even on ebay, there are guys doing it...so its going to happen everywhere..i know i have been to car auctions live and i've bid against the coke machine that the auctioneer appears to be pointing too....this happens in real life..so will of course happen in the more easier enviroment of the internet...market price will be adjusted....as long as sellers complain they arent getting 'market value' and are upset at bad sales..they will go to the auctions that give the best prices....and those same sellers who want to buy items will complain of shilling...

[Runscott]

My only point is that whomever owns Legendary benefits from its continuation. I don't think looking at the employees and helping them keep things going is the right focus as the profits go to the shareholders. My understand is Doug Allen and other former Mastro employees started the company and likely still own the majority. Helping Legendary continue on simply helps these people, who are now indicted, continue to profit from this mess.

I'm not looking for people to think more or less of anyone on this board, just to act. I get tired of all of the people on boards who are appalled at shill bidding, crooked auction houses, shady dealers, etc. but who when it comes right down to it won't put their money where their mouth is. To each their own but don't expect things to ever get better if you're not willing to be part of the solution.

jeff

Edited heavily - my apologies for initial reaction.

Point taken about the owners of Legendary. Maybe there is someone here who can shed more light on that issue.

I doubt there is anyone here, including yourself, who deals only with squeaky-clean dealers, auction houses and collectors. But I also think that these discussions are leading to solutions. When we discussed the crooked ebay dealers, I like to think that many forum members quit participating in those auctions. Now we are discussing consignors shilling - hopefully that leads to some forum members thinking twice about shilling or having others shill for them (peer pressure if nothing else). I have mixed feelings about the major auction houses - we've seen evidence that almost every single one of them is dishonest in some way. So do we boycott all of them? Or do we discuss it here and let them know how we feel about their behavior? We've seen changes as a result of these discussions;e.g-H&S removing the photos with 'wishful thinking' identifications - small thing, but it started with discussions here.

At worst, the discussions don't hurt anything and certainly no action is going to be taken if we keep quiet.

[calvindog]

Jeff-you can rule me out big time. I just lost my ass on several T206s with Robert Edwards (it will be the last time with that auction) in their Fall auction. Maybe I'm an idiot....

It's not the auction house's fault when they refuse to shill up a card, unfortunately. I got creamed in Al's auction on a card and it was due to three factors: a) I bought the card in a Doug Allen auction and was defrauded then; b) I didn't engage in shill bidding when I sold it; c) Al didn't engage in shill bidding during the auction.

[Brian Van Horn]

Always liked Ron. I'm sorry, but I didn't know of Khyber.

Sounds like the ship is going down.

[HRBAKER]

Jeff, unlikely to happen. As has been said many times, stuff trumps all.

Peter, you're right.

but

If you keep getting in line to get peed on, don't be surprised when you get wet.

[1952boyntoncollector]

people keep needing their card to get shilled until finally somebody doesnt do it and gets crushed..but again if its an auction house thats prone to shilling people should just bid less

there are people that get better buys in non shill auctions..and people that get ripped off..and its the same in shill auctions....when i really like a card and know i am willing to pay almost anything..i cant complain if its way above what i can get for it......if im trying to buy a card to resell for example id be more cautious on what i buy...

[1952boyntoncollector]

The issue is..if the shillers truly lose 20% if they 'win' their item and dont get a courtesy waiver..i really dont see how someone would want to risk 'winning' a 2000 dollar card and having to pay 400 for their own card...

[Runscott]

The issue is..if the shillers truly lose 20% if they 'win' their item and dont get a courtesy waiver..i really dont see how someone would want to risk 'winning' a 2000 dollar card and having to pay 400 for their own card...

I think people probably shill early on to 'kindle' the bidding. I also think that if someone has a low-population or unique item that they want to get a certain amount for, it's going to be worth it to them to shill it, even if it means buying it back;e.g-I paid over $6,000 for a unique item and consigned it. It sold for $3,100. If I were someone who thought shilling my own auctions was okay, I could have possibly won it for the next bid and paid the 20% fee (or had my shiller pay it). That would by far offset a $2,900 loss from selling it for $3,100. I have told that story to a few people, and had more than one look at me like I was crazy and ask why I didn't win it back. People here really do think that way.

But I agree it is difficult to imagine most items selling for prices that would make it worth paying 20% to get your item back.

[Leon]

people keep needing their card to get shilled until finally somebody doesnt do it and gets crushed..but again if its an auction house thats prone to shilling people should just bid less

there are people that get better buys in non shill auctions..and people that get ripped off..and its the same in shill auctions....when i really like a card and know i am willing to pay almost anything..i cant complain if its way above what i can get for it......if im trying to buy a card to resell for example id be more cautious on what i buy...

It seems as all of the shilled cards have ended up in my and Jeff L's collections.:eek: I know when I go to sell at auction I tend to lose part of my big arse....

[Leon]

The issue is..if the shillers truly lose 20% if they 'win' their item and dont get a courtesy waiver..i really dont see how someone would want to risk 'winning' a 2000 dollar card and having to pay 400 for their own card...

If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....

.. I am NEVER for allowing consignors or auctioneers to bid in their own auctions. EVER.

[Runscott]

If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....

.. I am NEVER for allowing consignors or auctioneers to bid in their own auctions. EVER.

Succinctly said :) If I could do that as well as you, I probably wouldn't have kids crawling all over by butt in here.

[steve_a]

I'll be counted among those who have no problem with shill bidding as long as the shiller can't see other bids. Shilling is essentially risking the buyers premium to set a hidden reserve price. That "reserve" set by the shiller is just as much a part of market value as what the buyer is willing to pay.

[Leon]

I'll be counted among those who have no problem with shill bidding as long as the shiller can't see other bids. Shilling is essentially risking the buyers premium to set a hidden reserve price. That "reserve" set by the shiller is just as much a part of market value as what the buyer is willing to pay.

I completely am against that. In my mind, If you want a reserve either say what it is or start your item at the least you will take. Be transparent, not fraudulent. You can actually sell, not lose money and still be honest!! I know, it's a novel idea. (and I am not saying I am without fault..but I am not at fault on these issues :))

[steve_a]

That would be fine, but what AH lets you set a reserve besides ebay?

[Leon]

That would be fine, but what AH lets you set a reserve besides ebay?

All of them.....well, I take that back. There are a few that might not. But I guarantee if you call 5 big ones at least 3 of them will let you. We don't allow reserves in our auctions per se', but will let consignors start their items wherever they want to. At some point we might say we don't want a consignment, if we have to start it at retail. But most auctions will let you have some form of reserve (or higher opening bid) from my experiences.

[steve_a]

A minimum bid isn't the same as a reserve. I always assume low minimum bids were made to allow more participants into the extended bidding framework, not an expectation you could win at such a low price. I work in finance & deal with price discovery every day which likely influences my perspective but I see no difference between listing below where you are willing to sell and bidding below what you are willing to spend.

[1952boyntoncollector]

well if only worried about 6000 dolllar cards or more than takes out a huge chunck of the market..and again i woudl think people that bid $120,000 etc...are educated enough to pay what they think its worth and not be suckered by shilling...if a shiller weants to eat a $1500 buyers premium..on one ocassion..i dont think they will schill again and make it 3000.......either way i think this issue has been discussed...


Back to Legendary Auctin...would you be confortable sending them a check at this point?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I had bid and won I would be uncomfortable NOT sending them a check.

[1952boyntoncollector]

anyone who says a card sold at rock bottom price and could easily of gotten more for the card cause its not the 'true' market...why not have a friend or themselve just buy the card and sell it....if the buyers premium makes it unlikely to do that then it was close enough to market price to not complain

basicaly if its selling at a price where you are 100% sure you can resell it for a profit thats worth..go and buy it...dont complain it sold for way under market and market period doesnt mean just a week period.....if so sure it sold cheaply buy it back and move on..otherwise it was sure as heck close enough to market price if you worried about buyers premium...close enough to market price to not be 'rock bottom price'....

[Runscott]

anyone who says a card sold at rock bottom price and could easily of gotten more for the card cause its not the 'true' market...why not have a friend or themselve just buy the card and sell it....if the buyers premium makes it unlikely to do that then it was close enough to market price to not complain

basicaly if its selling at a price where you are 100% sure you can resell it for a profit thats worth..go and buy it...dont complain it sold for way under market and market period doesnt mean just a week period.....if so sure it sold cheaply buy it back and move on..otherwise it was sure as heck close enough to market price if you worried about buyers premium...close enough to market price to not be 'rock bottom price'....

okay

[1952boyntoncollector]

[QUOTE=Leon;1346971]If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....


again the seller wouldnt be sure if actually losing 4000 on the item but sure as heck going to be losing 400 and now a new buyer will have to pay another buyer premium and the seller isnt likely to eat another buyer premium....and the past sale will be registered on VCP so will be even harder to get higher amount then they just shilled a safe amount for....its not like they woudl be shilling to an all time past sale high....but rather shilling to not 'give it away at rock bottom prices..which arguably may not be rock bottom but the average sale price ..... plus you are assuming a 6000 dollar card will be going for 2000 with a 400 bp.. and the shill 'won' on 2000..so the lower bid was 1800 or so on a '6000' card..i just dont see that as a likely scenerio.....very very very rare...if ever....and not something as a buyer id worry about....

so the shill gets it to 2000 and as a buyer i 'win' on 2200 on a 6000 card?..id take that as a buyer..

[Leon]

A minimum bid isn't the same as a reserve. I always assume low minimum bids were made to allow more participants into the extended bidding framework, not an expectation you could win at such a low price. I work in finance & deal with price discovery every day which likely influences my perspective but I see no difference between listing below where you are willing to sell and bidding below what you are willing to spend.

A minimum bid absolutely can be used as a reserve. Try bidding $100 on a card that has a $500 opening bid (and is a 1k card in real value).

If you work in finance then you have to agree that if I start at $100 but say there is a $500 reserve, it is the same as opening at $500 with no reserve. The reason to open at $100, with a $500 reserve, is to attract "action" ie...bids. But I also don't like hidden reserves and if I ever did use one I would say what it is up front (or well before auction end). I understand there are different views but those are mine. I believe in openness and transparency in bidding.

[4815162342]

okay


It's hard to argue with the ellipses.

[1952boyntoncollector]

It's hard to argue with the ellipses.

ok...

[Leon]

[QUOTE=Leon;1346971]If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....


again the seller wouldnt be sure if actually losing 4000 on the item but sure as heck going to be losing 400 and now a new buyer will have to pay another buyer premium and the seller isnt likely to eat another buyer premium....and the past sale will be registered on VCP so will be even harder to get higher amount then they just shilled a safe amount for....its not like they woudl be shilling to an all time past sale high....but rather shilling to not 'give it away at rock bottom prices..which arguably may not be rock bottom but the average sale price ..... plus you are assuming a 6000 dollar card will be going for 2000 with a 400 bp.. and the shill 'won' on 2000..so the lower bid was 1800 or so on a '6000' card..i just dont see that as a likely scenerio.....very very very rare...if ever....and not something as a buyer id worry about....

so the shill gets it to 2000 and as a buyer i 'win' on 2200 on a 6000 card?..id take that as a buyer..

If the Consignor paid 6k, as I said, then yes at 2k he would be losing 4k.
I merely gave an example where it would make sense to pay 400 BP. And as far as VCP goes, it is a good tool but more are needed. It can be manipulated (via bad sales) just as you are describing.

I don't think You have consigned enough and haven't lost enough to have this conversation if you don't think these scenarios happen. I have lost, yes lost, 10k on one card and I had no inclination to shill it. I win some and I lose some....and sleep well at night. To each their own though. Just please don't consign to my auction if you want to shill.

[Runscott]

It's hard to argue with the ellipses.

I appreciate his enthusiasm, but I have to admit I didn't understand much of the post. It's possible I agreed with all of it.

[jefferyepayne]

Jeff, unlikely to happen. As has been said many times, stuff trumps all.

I'm not saying this is you, Peter, because I don't know you at all. But usually the people who say this are the ones trying to rationalize their behavior to themselves because they know its wrong.

Time to man up and do what right and fix the hobby. Are you part of the solution or the problem?

jeff

[thecatspajamas]

Are the Osers photo guys?

Khyber is listed as one of the co-authors on A Portrait of Baseball Photography. I always kind of assumed it was more as an editor assembling the book itself, correcting spelling/grammar, etc as I believe he was listed as being in college at the time (I don't have the book in front of me, so am going from memory here, which always gets me in trouble). Anyway, that is to say that he at least has some history with photos, and it would make sense for his interest to continue beyond that work.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not saying this is you, Peter, because I don't know you at all. But usually the people who say this are the ones trying to rationalize their behavior to themselves because they know its wrong.

Time to man up and do what right and fix the hobby. Are you part of the solution or the problem?

jeff

It was an observation, not a rationalization.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I appreciate his enthusiasm, but I have to admit I didn't understand much of the post. It's possible I agreed with all of it.

I honestly didn't follow it either.

[Runscott]

Khyber is listed as one of the co-authors on A Portrait of Baseball Photography. I always kind of assumed it was more as an editor assembling the book itself, correcting spelling/grammar, etc as I believe he was listed as being in college at the time (I don't have the book in front of me, so am going from memory here, which always gets me in trouble). Anyway, that is to say that he at least has some history with photos, and it would make sense for his interest to continue beyond that work.

Good, so hopefully no more 'wishful thinking' false starts;e.g-Rusie, Jackson, etc.

[1952boyntoncollector]

i never said i shill...i was just explaining the issues involved and the fact shilling sort of solves itself with educated buyers and bp that people have to pay if buying their own stuf....i keeps seeing comments that i am shilling..i have never stated that....stop assuming things....

[CMIZ5290]

Kevin, hard for me to believe you would have done better elsewhere. I am guessing REA attracts more eyes than anyone.

Peter- You're probably right. My wording may have been slightly unclear. I didn't mean never consigning again with REA (they are one of the best), I meant that particular Fall auction vs. their Spring auction. I may be wrong, but it seems that the Spring brings better money....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kevin, I come up short just as often in the fall as the spring auction. :D