T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's [Archive]

tedzan

11-20-2014, 03:41 PM

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx50b.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205HINDUbk37x.jpg

Most T205 collectors consider the HINDU's tougher than the DRUM's. To date, there are 25 subjects confirmed with DRUM backs. While there are
19 subjects confirmed with HINDU backs. DRUM and HINDU checklists will follow.
And, this I can state with certainty: T205 DRUM and HINDU cards are mutually exclusive.

How many more T205's yet to be found with HINDU backs is not easily discernable, given the existing back patterns associated with T205 HINDU's.

However, I have a theory regarding the predictability of DRUM cards in the T205 set.

Theory...... the A=B=C=D equation

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205BergenABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BroadLeafLobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205CycleHuggins25bxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx25bx.jpg

Apparently, American Lithographic printed American Beauty (Black)...Broad Leaf...Cycle...Drum backs simultaneously on certain T205 subjects.
Research suggests, as many as 32 subjects were possibly printed with DRUM backs in the T205 set.
The key factor in this A=B=C=D equation is the Black American Beauty back. Conversely, a T205 subject with a Green American Beauty back
will NOT be found with a DRUM back.

Here's my original list of 11 predictions Since I proposed these predictions, 4 of them have surfaced with DRUM backs (marked confirmed on list).
So, I'm 4 for 4 (Batting 1.000). Therefore, I'm feeling very confident that my theory is valid.

The remaining 7 guys have been confirmed with the A=B=C pattern. So, I expect these 7 subjects eventually will be discovered with the DRUM
back (completing their A=B=C=D connection).

1......Bates.........confirmed
2......Becker
3......Bergen.......confirmed
4......Evans
5......Herzog
6......Huggins
7......Leach.........confirmed
8......Lobert
9......Paskert......confirmed
10....Phelps
11....Wheat

Having said all that, the intent of this thread is twofold....to inform....and to encourage more worthwhile T205 discussions. Especially, regarding
the tougher front / back combinations (i.e: HINDU's....AMERICAN BEAUTY....BROAD LEAF....CYCLE....DRUM's, etc.).

So, feel free to post your T205's of any variety.....and/or, to chime in with some interesting stories regarding your T205 set or cards.

TED Z
.

T205 GB

11-20-2014, 04:36 PM

tedzan

11-20-2014, 06:01 PM

List of the 19 subjects currently confirmed with HINDU backs (with respect to their Team affiliation)......

New York Giants
-------------------
Leon Ames
Josh Devore
W. R. Dickson

Chicago Cubs
----------------
John Kling
John Pfeister

Cincinnatti Reds
-------------------
Robert Bescher
Richard Egan
Harry Gaspar

Detroit Tigers
----------------
George Simmons
Oscar Stanage

Philadelphia Phillies
-----------------------
Fred Jacklitsch
Sherwood Magee

Washington Senators
-------------------------
Walter Johnson
GeorgeMcBride

Boston Red Sox
-------------------
Clyde Engle

Boston Rustlers
------------------
Bayard Sharpe

Brooklyn Superbas
----------------------
Edgar Lennox

Pittsburg Pirates
--------------------
Albert Leifield

St Louis Browns
-------------------
William Bailey

TED Z
.

tedzan

11-20-2014, 06:14 PM

Ted the Cycles don't follow the pattern like they do on 206's. I also have a list of Hindu confirmed/possibles I can post of your interested. I have some where a list of the same for Drums but having issues with my desktop where I believe it is.

I realize that the patterns of the T205 CYCLE's are different than they are with the T206 cards.

But, when the CYCLE's are in partners with the black American Beauty and the Broad Leaf cards for a given T205 subject, then a Drum
will inevitably follow.

And, by all means, please list all of the Drum and Hindu confirmed/possibles you have.

Thanks, ole buddy

TED Z
.

EvilKing00

11-20-2014, 07:04 PM

Love all the recent t205 threads! If anyone had a hindu or drum they are looking to sell i could be interested

Steve D

11-20-2014, 08:12 PM

I have a T205 Jake Stahl (Boston Amer) with a Hindu back.

Steve

tedzan

11-21-2014, 06:24 AM

Steve

Your T205 Jake Stahl is a new HINDU card. This is the 20th confirmed HINDU.

When you can, please post front & back scans of it.

Thanks for this important input,

TED Z
.

Wite3

11-21-2014, 07:57 AM

tedzan

11-21-2014, 10:01 AM

Team affiliation of the 25 subjects currently confirmed with DRUM backs......

New York Yankees
----------------------
James Austin
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Jack Knight
John Quinn
Harry Wolter

Philadelphia Phillies
-----------------------
John Bates
Patrick Moran
George Paskert

Chicago White Sox
----------------------
Russell Blackburne
Frederick Olmstead
Fred Payne

Boston Rustlers
-------------------
George Graham (blue signature)
David Shean

Brooklyn Superbas
----------------------
George Bell
William Bergen

Chicago Cubs
-----------------
Mordecai Brown
Lewis Richie

Cincinnati Reds
------------------
Thomas Downey
Richard Hoblitzell

New York Giants
--------------------
Albert Bridwell
A. Latham

Philadelphia A's
------------------
Briscoe Lord

Pittsburg Pirates
-------------------
Thomas Leach

St Louis Browns
-------------------
George Stone

St Louis Cardinals
---------------------
Frank Corridon

TED Z

peterb69

11-21-2014, 10:58 AM

I have a T205 Jake Stahl (Boston Amer) with a Hindu back.

Steve

Thanks Steve, great find

whelenfan

11-21-2014, 11:43 AM

Loving this thread!

tedzan

11-21-2014, 04:00 PM

Ted is spot on in his evaluation...the matrix can be further seen at t205resource.com

Drum used to be tougher than Hindu but I suspect the print runs were probably similar. There was a couple of "large" Drum finds (around 20 cards total) a few years back that allowed much of those into the hobby.

I can tell you that there were at least three press runs for Hindu as I have have seen three different Hindu Ames sell during my time. As for Drum, I have only confirmed duplicates of Brown and Quinn...still waiting to confirm a triplicate of those two.

Joshua

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment.

Regarding the relatively recent two finds of T205 Drum's, that I think you are alluding to. Ron Oser and I were set-up at adjacent booths at
a Philly Show when Ron discovered those cards on his trips to St. Louis. Ron and I were like two kids sorting thru all these T205 (and T206)
Drum cards (which altogether totaled approx. 70 Drum cards)......what a "blast".

TED Z
.

T205 GB

11-21-2014, 05:19 PM

Ted I remember sitting at the Hilton bar with you in 2010 and talking t205's and this back pattern link and also some other card back list and connections. Hope we can repeat that again this summer. Here is the Hindu list I made about 2 yrs back. I deleted it off the board along with some of my other research. Anyways here's what I have:

I have been researching this set for what seems yrs now. I was leaning towards a theory about the Hindus a while back but needed a few more back confirmations to make the connection factual. Hindus were printed at the 649 Fact, as well as the Hassan 649 back. After a lot of research I noticed that NO Hindu players were found with Hassan Backs even though they were printed in the same factory as each other. I then realized there was another neat thing that all Hindus have the SC black backs only. So if it has a Hassan back then there will be NO Hindu or SC Black back from either factory. None of the AB, BL, Cycle, Drum, or Pied 42 cards can be found with the SC black back from either factory either, but can have SC red fact 25.

These may have not been printed, but they meet all the criteria to be a Hindu print, and there is a list of Confirmed backs below. Also you will see a few Variations listed. I believe the 2 variations listed are the correct card for the back to fall on. This is due the card listed as being the primary card containing the SC Blacks from both factories and the other variation being a type of misprint or correction later on.

Possible
Abbaticchio
Archer
Ball
Birmingham
Bransfield
Ciotte
Daubert
Doughtery-Red Sox Emblem
Duffy
Ford Black Cap
Fromme
Goode
Gray-No Stats
Griffith
Groom
Hoffman
Hummel
Jennings
Killian
LaPorte
Lang
Livingston
Lord
Lush
Maddox
McElveen
McIntyre
McLean
Mitchell
Moriarity
Mullin
Rucker
Schmidt
Scott
Stahl
Thomas
Young

Confirmed
Ames
Bailey
Bescher
Devore
Dickson
Egan
Engle
Gaspar
Jacklitsch
Johnson
Kling
Leifield-A on Front
Lennox
Magee
McBride
Pfiester
Sharpe
Simmons
Stanage

I do hope this will help out in some way and hope to cross off a few in the future to the confirmed list. I would be happy to hear any questions or comments.

tedzan

11-21-2014, 07:01 PM

Ted I remember sitting at the Hilton bar with you in 2010 and talking t205's and this back pattern link and also some other card back list and connections. Hope we can repeat that again this summer.

The Hilton in Baltimore, I remember that well. I wish all the future National Shows were in Baltimore. Anyhow, we talked T205's quite late
into the night. I think we finally ended talking about our Daughters....your Kadence and Melody, and my Zoe and Debra.
The Good Lord willing, we can continue our conversation this forthcoming Summer.

Thanks for posting all this good stuff regarding T205 HINDU's. I will certainly give it some serious thought.

Incidentally, on your possible list is Stahl, and yesterday Steve D (post #6) identified Stahl with a HINDU back.

TED Z
.

Steve D

11-21-2014, 07:43 PM

T205 Stahl Hindu back:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/steved80/T205HinduStahlObverse_zps3bbedf13.jpghttp://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/steved80/T205HinduStahlReverse_zps28dc52c9.jpg

Steve

dog*dirt

11-21-2014, 08:00 PM

Stahl Hindu back:

Very cool!

whelenfan

11-21-2014, 08:53 PM

That is one great card

tedzan

11-22-2014, 07:02 AM

List of the 22 subjects currently confirmed with HINDU backs (with respect to their Team affiliation)......

New York Giants
-------------------
Leon Ames
Josh Devore
W. R. Dickson

Cincinnatti Reds
-------------------
Robert Bescher
Richard Egan
Harry Gaspar

Chicago Cubs
----------------
John Kling
John Pfeister

Detroit Tigers
----------------
George Simmons
Oscar Stanage

Philadelphia Phillies
-----------------------
Fred Jacklitsch
Sherwood Magee

Washington Senators
-------------------------
Walter Johnson
GeorgeMcBride

Boston Red Sox
-------------------
Eddie Cicotte
Clyde Engle
Jacob Stahl

Boston Rustlers
------------------
Bayard Sharpe

Brooklyn Superbas
----------------------
Edgar Lennox

Chicago White Sox
--------------------
Hugh Duffy

Pittsburg Pirates
--------------------
Albert Leifield

St Louis Browns
-------------------
William Bailey

TED Z
.

tedzan

11-23-2014, 04:46 PM

So, you have completed a 208-card set. Your T205 challenge is over with. Or, is it ? No, it's not....the "hunt" must continue, as you become obsessed
with the various T205 backs.
This occurred to me with the T206's many years ago, when I realized a pattern of backs that I refer to as the A-B-C-D connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90139&highlight=American+beauty-broad+leaf-cycle-drum). Check out this link
for more info on this sub-set. And, for example, here is my A-B-C-D "quadruplicate" sub-set of my favorite T206 Minor Leaguer....Frank Delahanty

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FrankDelahantyABCDx50.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FrankDelahantyABCDx50b.jpg

Recently, I started similar A-B-C-D sub-sets for these four T205 guys.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205ABCDpattern25x.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205ABCDpattern25bx.jpg

I currently have the AB's for these guys....and, the additional backs shown here. Any help in acquiring the remaining Broad Leaf, Cycle. and Drum
backs to complete the A-B-C-D sub-sets of these 4 subjects is greatly appreciated.

Bergen & Wolter are confirmed with Drum. Huggins & Lobert have yet to be found with the Drum back. However, I firmly believe that they will be.

Hey guys......this is just a alternative sport in the fun of collecting Tobacco cards that I thought may interest some of you.

TED Z
.

Leon

11-25-2014, 01:55 PM

Hey Ted
Small world. That Wolter Drum used to be my type for the mfg for many years. Nice research and thanks for sharing!! I have shown these so often folks will think they are commoners....:o

http://luckeycards.com/pt205cobbbrownjohnson3x.jpg

tedzan

11-25-2014, 07:14 PM

That's pretty cool.....it is a small world.

So, maybe your Johnson Hindu will soon be mine :)

TED Z
.

tedzan

11-29-2014, 09:01 PM

Some Net54 collectors of T205 cards have in the past complained that there are too many threads on T206's
and very few threads regarding T205 cards. Well, I started this thread in order to "gin up" some interesting
discussions on these cards.
Apparently, there does not seem to be any interest in my suggested "Quadruplicate" sub-sets. So let's switch
over to posting T205 printing errors. Perhaps, that may keep this thread active.

I'll start with my Eddie Collins card with a mis-printed back.

What is quite interesting about this particular card is that it reveals to us that this Collins card was Double-
Printed (horizontally) on its sheet.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205collinsmiscut50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205collinsWCbk50x.jpg

OK guys.....how's about showing and/or telling us of your T205 anomalies.....or anything T205.

TED Z
.

EvilKing00

11-30-2014, 06:31 AM

1 - Archer - Hard to tell from the bad scan, but hes got 4 eyes
2 - Tannehill - has a sunburn
3 - Bailey - pink baseline
4 - Ball - missing red ink

169639

Econteachert205

11-30-2014, 06:46 AM

Paddy and Howie are missing gold at the top. Wish I could help with the ABCD stuff!

dog*dirt

11-30-2014, 08:04 AM

That LaPorte is great Dennis.

tedzan

12-01-2014, 04:16 PM

Steve and Andrew

Thanks for posting your T205's.....very interesting.

Paddy and Howie are missing gold at the top. Wish I could help with the ABCD stuff!

Dennis

I haven't seen "missing gold" T205's in ages. Thanks for posting your's.

The ABCD stuff.... Dennis, I think I'm probably the only dude on this forum that finds such esoteric back combinations interesting.

I'm picking up a CYCLE back for this Lobert A-B-C-D combo. And, although the DRUM version of Lobert is unknown, I'm certain it will appear.

I'm happy that I have the BROAD LEAF back, because in my opinion the BROAD LEAF (black) backs are as scarce as the DRUM backs.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T205LobertABxBLx50.jpg
................http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205LobertABxBLx50b.jpg

TED Z
.

AddieJoss

12-01-2014, 09:59 PM

Austin in a PSA 3

AddieJoss

12-01-2014, 10:01 PM

Latham..With a drum

AddieJoss

12-01-2014, 10:22 PM

Hindu

AddieJoss

12-01-2014, 10:24 PM

Hindu

tedzan

12-02-2014, 01:43 PM

Hi Cory

Great cards....thanks for posting your DRUM's and HINDU's.

TED Z
.

tedzan

12-03-2014, 07:26 AM

Here's another mis-print, this one tells us that John Titus and Tony Smith were adjacent cards on this printed sheet.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205TitusSmith50x.jpg

TED Z
.

tedzan

12-04-2014, 01:33 PM

Knowledgeable T205 collectors believe that the T205 Minor Leaguers were printed late in 1911 (or 1912) based on the bios of 8 of these subjects. According to my T205 Exclusive 12 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=165549) theory
there is a high probability that these 12 subjects were printed on a sheet of their own separate from the other 196 subjects in the T205 set.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecol.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolBx.jpg

However, the aesthetic design of these 12 cards is very similar to American Lithographic's (ALC) non-sports cards of 1911....such as the Military Series cards depicted here.

T80 examples
. . http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/alenoxuzitt80t205nee.jpg
. . http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/blenoxuzitt80.jpg

We have actual proof from an ALC ledger that the T80's were issued as early as Feb 1911. And, a T80 and a T206 were both inserted in Cigarette packs in that timeline.
Furthermore, was the artwork for the Minor Leaguers created by the same artist that created the T80's early in 1911 ?

But, for whatever reasons the Minor Leaguers were then shelved until very late in 1911, when these 12 guys were printed and issued.

Personally, I favor the design of these Minor Leaguers over the design of the 196 - T205 Major Leaguers.

TED Z
.

Econteachert205

12-04-2014, 01:43 PM

bn2cardz

12-04-2014, 01:56 PM

It would be a great help if PSA would start showing love to the t205 set. They still just label them as Gold Border (same as t207 being listed only as 'brown background'). They don't indicate back advertisements not alone factory like they do with t206. That would really help. For this reason I wouldn't get any t205 or t206 graded with PSA anymore.

tedzan

12-04-2014, 06:50 PM

Since the t206 sheet threads have been so huge I was wondering when the 05s would get some love. I especially would want to know because of the nature of the sp's and how the sheets were put together. Thanks for all the work Ted!

Dennis

I appreciate the compliment.

Regarding printed sheet arrangements, illustrated here is my hypothetical simulated sheet of 48 cards of the Minor Leaguers. I could expand this format to as many as 108 cards
that would fill-out a standard 18" x 24" size sheet that was used by American Lithographic for their small size lithographic projects in that era.

Note that this arrangement is only 48 cards due to the 18 image limitation on Net54 posts.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecol.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecol.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecol.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecol.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolBx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolBx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolBx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolBx.jpg

TED Z
.

EvilKing00

12-04-2014, 07:36 PM

tedzan

12-05-2014, 03:31 PM

The following is a list of the Black ink AMERICAN BEAUTY subjects that I'm aware of in the T205 set.

I have 32 confirmed listed here....however, I have been informed that there are 33.
Please check out this list and tell me who the 33rd guy is.

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert
Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter

Thanks much,

TED Z
.

T205 GB

12-05-2014, 11:44 PM

Ted I have 32 on my list also. Not sure who said there are 33. I may be wrong though.

12-06-2014, 12:29 PM

Interesting thread on a great, underrated set. Thanks for posting all the cards, guys.

bn2cardz

12-06-2014, 01:46 PM

tedzan

12-07-2014, 06:19 AM

I was told of a possible 33rd AB (black ink) card from an old T205 collector friend of mine.

Also, I had noticed that you had "33" noted in your signature, so I was wondering if there are 33 - T205's with this back.

Andrew W. and Andy N.

Thanks for confirming the 32 number.

TED Z
.

AddieJoss

12-07-2014, 09:58 AM

Are there also a total of 32 total Broadleaf backs?

tedzan

12-07-2014, 12:03 PM

The following 32 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF back.

Note that this list is exactly identical to the previously listed black ink AMERICAN BEAUTY backs (in Post #38).

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert
Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter

TED Z
.

tedzan

12-08-2014, 07:33 PM

You can call me a "nut", but here is another challenge. If you have achieved the aforementioned "quadruplicate" sub-set for a given T205 subject (Post 19), then extend it
to a "Quintuplicate" sub-set by adding a moderately tough SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #42) card to this group to achieve this 5-card series.
All 32 subjects that are possible with DRUM backs will invariably be found with this red colored SWEET CAP back.

--http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205QuinnSCred25x.jpg -----------------------------------------------------------------------------http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205QuinnCycle25x.jpg ----------------------------------------
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205QuinnSCred25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205BergenABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BroadLeafLobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205QuinnCycle25xb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx25bx.jpg

Of course, it goes without saying, the real challenge in this game is to find Jack Quinn's BROAD LEAF and DRUM cards.

I first started collecting this pattern with my T206's. My favorite T206 image is the blue Chase; and, I have been searching for 34 years for the DRUM
to complete this Quintuplucate sub-set. However, no DRUM card of the blue Chase has ever been confirmed. I'm beginning to wonder if this Hal Chase
card was ever printed with a DRUM back.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206ChaseQuintuplcate75x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseABxBLxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206DRUMx50bx.jpg

TED Z
.

T205 GB

12-08-2014, 08:55 PM

Just got out my miscut fronts and ghost today

Paskert ghost
Stone MC front top w/AB back
Gaspar/Gaspar
Bescher top MC
Street/Bresnahan mouth closed
Richie vert MC
Titus/Beck vert MC

bn2cardz

12-09-2014, 07:13 AM

Since there are some errors showing up, here is what I have retained:

http://whitewhalecards.com/files/card_images/user_cards/4c59bc3321afc258/large/531392cbb8215_front.jpghttp://whitewhalecards.com/files/card_images/user_cards/4c59bc3321afc258/large/531392cbb8215_rear.jpg

http://whitewhalecards.com/files/card_images/user_cards/bcb0777f9bede6e7/large/5437373007989_rear.jpghttp://whitewhalecards.com/files/card_images/user_cards/bcb0777f9bede6e7/small/5437373007989_front.jpg

Econteachert205

12-09-2014, 08:29 AM

The 32 cards previously mentioned... would they be considered as to have been printed more than the others in the set, or does their having been printed with so many different backs not effect production runs as they simply had smaller numbers with more backs?

tedzan

12-10-2014, 03:00 PM

Typically, for any one of these 32 subjects, the total sum of their AB + BL + CY + DR backs is approx. 10 % of the total card count of a given subject.
Therefore, my answer to your question is that these 32 were not printed more than any of the other 176 subjects in the T205 set.

................... tough ..................................... rare ....................................... tough ...............................…. very rare

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205BergenABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BroadLeafLobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205CycleHuggins25bxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx25bx.jpg

TED Z

tedzan

12-11-2014, 06:22 PM

That handford card still bothers me, with the red background. Why is he the only one? Some responded cause of the team. Hes the inly jersey guy, could be. Where there supposed to be more jersey guys? Probably. Love the mystery as well as the beauty if the set.

Hanford should have been captioned with Montreal (instead of Jersey City). It's an error card, both in Team and in color. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecol.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolBx.jpg

TED Z
.

EvilKing00

12-11-2014, 07:06 PM

Hey ted, interesting. Never realized he was on mon at the time of the print. But the red name... Why red when everyone else was yellow? Every hanford name is red so it was structured

whelenfan

12-12-2014, 09:24 AM

very interesting indeed, I had never noticed that before!

tedzan

12-14-2014, 11:53 AM

One of my favorite T205's....Donahue was an excellent 1st Baseman. One of his biggest claims to fame was when he hit a single
to break up Ed Reulbach's bid for a No-Hitter in the 2nd game of the 1906 World Series between the two Chicago teams.

Although, I have wondered why he was pictured in the T205 set, since his Major League career ended on October 2, 1909. Does
this suggest to us how far in advance American Litho. was planning this set. Or, is Donahue simply a carry-over from the T206
set ?
Unfortunately, 2 years after this card of him was issued, Donahue suffered a very untimely death at the young age of 34.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205donohue50x.jpg . .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205donohue50xb.jpg

Show & tell us about your favorite T205 ballplayer.

TED Z
.

asoriano

12-14-2014, 12:06 PM

In one famous incident, a waiter in a New York tavern asked Bugs how he threw his spitter. Eager to oblige, Raymond stood up and gripped a glass tumbler. "I wet these two fingers like so," he reportedly said. Then, after winding up, he threw the glass through the window. "Notice the break," he said as he sat down.

http://i62.tinypic.com/95vh4n.jpg

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/79835564

tedzan

12-15-2014, 11:45 AM

Hey ted, interesting. Never realized he was on mon at the time of the print. But the red name... Why red when everyone else was yellow? Every hanford name is red so it was structured

So, the Handford card "still bothers" you, "with the red background".

Well, let me try to explain this anomaly in the printing of these twelve T205 Minor League cards. OK, this is my theory, however the circumstances are as such that I feel it warrants merit.

Most knowledgeable T205 collectors believe that the T205 Minor Leaguers were printed and issued in late 1911 (or 1912). The basis for this timeline is in the bios of 8 of these 12 subjects.
I agree with their issued timeline. But, here is the printing situation as I see it......

The fronts of these 12 cards were printed very early in 1911 when American Litho designed, printed, and issued their T80 Military Series (Feb. 1911). It's obvious from the similar stylistic
designs, the same artist created the Military Series and these T205 Minor Leaguers. For unknown reasons, sheets of these pre-printed fronts of the Minor Leaguers were then shelved until
very late in 1911, when the bios of these 12 guys were printed on the backs of these cards.

Therefore Steve, having said all that, to address your concern regarding the Hanford card..I'm showing several examples of the cards from my T80 set. Many of them have a Yellow name
box, some have a Red name box, some have a light Blue name box. My point here is that American Litho. probably printed up more than 12 Minor Leaguer's (which like the T80 cards had
Yellow, Red, Blue name boxes). How many more than 12 ? We will probably never find out. So, they finally selected the 12 we know; and, one of them happens to have a Red name box.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecol.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T80x10subjects25x.jpg

TED Z
.

EvilKing00

12-16-2014, 05:24 AM

hey ted,

yea when I say something bothers me this is exactly it. Either there were more minor league cards (which I believe) also I think the set was never finished and there was supposed to be 400 in the baseball set.

OR some can argue the t80 and the t205's and maybe another set (bird?) are part of the same set? but id think the baseball set was just never finished.

whelenfan

12-16-2014, 04:59 PM

I like how some of the minor leaguers from t205 have a "background" scene as opposed to just a plain colored background.

tedzan

12-19-2014, 12:00 PM

1911 was a very ambitious year for American Lithographic in terms of Tobacco premiums. For starters they finished off the T206 set....while simultaneously
starting their Gold-Boarded sets. These T80 Military Series guys were a very early (circa Feb 1911) issue. Note the T206-type backs.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg

Furthermore....imagine opening a UZIT or LENOX cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card in it ?

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/herzogUZITx50.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/UZITcommanderTurkey.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITcommanderTurkey.jpg. . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/LENOXxChanceColCavalry50.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/herzogUZITx50b.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/UZITcommanderTurkeyB.jpg
. . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/LENOXxChanceColCavalry50b.jpg

T201 cards

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/MECCAxBresnahan75x.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ameccacobb_1.jpg

Fez Cigarette issue, T77 Lighthouse cards, and T205 cards

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/afezhassant205.jpg

Circa 1911 Gold-Border Tobacco premiums

208 = T205 Baseball

50 = T42 Birds

30 = T43 Birds

50 = T56 Emblems

100 = T57 Fables

50 = T69 Historic Homes

50 = T80 Military Series

50 = T99 Sights & Scenes of the World

T99 Sights & Scenes of the World
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T99goldParthenon50x.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T99goldParthenon50xb.jpg.

So, are there any more of these "Golden Gem" issues, that I may have left out ?

TED Z
.

tedzan

01-07-2016, 10:59 AM

American Lithographic printed exactly 32 - T205 subjects with DRUM backs. We know this based on a T-brand pattern presented 2 years ago on this forum.

A = B = C = D connection

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205BergenABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BroadLeafLobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205CycleHuggins25bxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx25bx.jpg

The key factor in this A = B = C = D equation is the Black American Beauty back. Note that the T205 subjects with the Green American Beauty back will NOT
be found with a DRUM back.

T205 DRUM checklist......32 subjects

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert

Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter

The above 5 names in bold have yet to be confirmed with a DRUM back. However, they already have been confirmed with the A - B - C pattern.
Therefore, I expect these 5 subjects will eventually be discovered with the DRUM back.

Hey guys......let's see some more T205 DRUM cards. Perhaps we can confirm these remaining 5 guys with DRUM backs.

I really appreciate your responses to this request.

TED Z
.

tedzan

01-08-2016, 08:26 AM

We all know that the source of DRUM cards (T205's and T206's) are from the St. Louis area.

Recently, it was brought to my attention that T205 BROAD LEAF cards may have been distributed in the Southeast.
A find of T205's included 19 cards with BROAD LEAF backs.

I'm wondering if any one else on this forum has knowledge of BROAD LEAF distribution ?

TED Z
.

T205 GB

01-08-2016, 05:29 PM

OR some can argue the t80 and the t205's and maybe another set (bird?) are part of the same set? but id think the baseball set was just never finished.

That is exactly what I think. The numbers are to close and the designs are also to deny a connection

Yoda

01-08-2016, 06:03 PM

Although not in the same class as Drum & Hindu reverses, feel the Piedmont Factory 42's merit a mention, especially as I just picked a nice one of Tinker.

T205 GB

01-09-2016, 09:24 PM

Although not in the same class as Drum & Hindu reverses, feel the Piedmont Factory 42's merit a mention, especially as I just picked a nice one of Tinker.

Post scans👍🏻

tedzan

03-04-2016, 07:24 PM

Going for an A-B-C-D Quadruplicate run with Lobert. Looking for a DRUM card of him. The checklist below indicates that Lobert has yet to be confirmed with DRUM.
I have complete confidence in my A-B-C-D theory; therefore, I expect Lobert will eventually be discovered with the DRUM back.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205ABLobert50x.jpg. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205BLLobert50x.jpg. . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205LobertCYCLEx50xx.jpg
..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205ABLobert50b.jpg. . .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205BLLobert50b.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205LobertCYCLEx50bx.jpg

American Lithographic printed exactly 32 - T205 subjects with DRUM backs. We know this based on a T-brand pattern presented 2 years ago on this forum.

A = B = C = D connection

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205BergenABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BroadLeafLobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205CycleHuggins25bxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx25bx.jpg

The key factor in this A = B = C = D equation is the Black American Beauty back. Note that the T205 subjects with the Green American Beauty back will NOT
be found with a DRUM back.

T205 DRUM checklist......32 subjects

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert

Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter

The above 5 names in bold have yet to be confirmed with a DRUM back. However, they already have been confirmed with the A - B - C pattern.
Therefore, I expect these 5 subjects will eventually be discovered with the DRUM back.

Hey guys......let's see some more T205 DRUM cards. Perhaps we can confirm these remaining 5 guys with DRUM backs.

I really appreciate your responses to this request.

TED Z
.

gfgcom

10-08-2022, 03:55 PM

I know this is an old post, but I have just picked up a

neal ball Naps
jacob stahl red sox

both with the hindu back

gfgcom

10-08-2022, 04:18 PM

https://www.gfg.com/baseball/t205hindu.jpg

gfgcom

10-08-2022, 04:21 PM

new pick up

https://www.gfg.com/baseball/t205hindu.jpg

Leon

10-08-2022, 04:46 PM

Unless those are in your collection they really shouldn't be on the front page.

We have had this discussion several times before.
.

new pick up

https://www.gfg.com/baseball/t205hindu.jpg

T205 GB

10-11-2022, 06:25 AM

https://www.gfg.com/baseball/t205hindu.jpg

Can you tell me if the ink is black or dark olive green? Thank you

Steve D

10-19-2022, 09:47 PM

Unless those are in your collection they really shouldn't be on the front page.

We have had this discussion several times before.
.

Since this is the first confirmation of the Ball even existing with the Hindu back, and only the 2nd confirmed Stahl/Hindu (after mine), I think his post is ok in this case.

Steve

tedzan

10-20-2022, 07:09 AM

Upgraded list of the 23 subjects currently confirmed with HINDU backs (with respect to their Team affiliation)......

New York Giants
-------------------
Leon Ames
Josh Devore
W. R. Dickson

Cincinnatti Reds
-------------------
Robert Bescher
Richard Egan
Harry Gaspar

Chicago Cubs
----------------
John Kling
John Pfeister

Detroit Tigers
----------------
George Simmons
Oscar Stanage

Philadelphia Phillies
-----------------------
Fred Jacklitsch
Sherwood Magee

Washington Senators
-------------------------
Walter Johnson
GeorgeMcBride

Boston Red Sox
-------------------
Eddie Cicotte
Clyde Engle
Jacob Stahl

Boston Rustlers
------------------
Bayard Sharpe

Brooklyn Superbas
----------------------
Edgar Lennox

Chicago White Sox
--------------------
Hugh Duffy

Pittsburg Pirates
--------------------
Albert Leifield

St Louis Browns
-------------------
William Bailey

Cleveland Indians
--------------------
Ball

TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.