Explanation of Wide Pen Types

[Shoebox]

I have recently purchased a few Goudey Wide Pens. I like the images of these and other premiums from this era and their affordability make them attractive to me. I have begun trying to learn more about the set but have only found rather limited information. On listings of these cards on eBay and elsewhere I have seen references to Type 1 and Type 4 but no explanation of the differences between the types. I assume there must be Types 2 & 3 as well but have not seen any cards designated as such. Can any of you help and explain the differences.

Here is what I have picked up so far:
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj594/Drinkmorebeer/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/26792a_med_zpsvqjhprms.jpeg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/Drinkmorebeer/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/26792a_med_zpsvqjhprms.jpeg.html)

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj594/Drinkmorebeer/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/PhotoGrid_1414106461572_zpsznlaamnr.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/Drinkmorebeer/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10/PhotoGrid_1414106461572_zpsznlaamnr.jpg.html)

[jcmtiger]

Hi, I collected the Detroit players, but have since sold them all.

These are the different types:

1 - With Litho in USA Glossy finish B & W
2 - Without Litho in USA Glossy finish B & W with border
3 - Without Litho in USA Glossy finish B & W No border
4 - without Litho in USA Glossy finish Creamy, medium pen signature
5 - without Litho in USA Dull finish Creamy.

Each player does not have all the variations.

Joe

[Shoebox]

Thanks for the information Joe.

[abothebear]

Here is a type 3 "no border" Joe Cronin.
<a href="http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/abothebear/media/PreWar%20Collection/R314Cronin_zps246fea10.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa471/abothebear/PreWar%20Collection/R314Cronin_zps246fea10.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo R314Cronin_zps246fea10.jpg"/></a>

[calvindog]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4093/4865955439_4ca9f04f62_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/8pZi2r)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7148/6635859503_3c7b51dded_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/b7ovQK)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4139/4815784952_40029b853d_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/8kya63)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4102/4865955447_cc4f37e37f_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/8pZi2z)

[Shoebox]

Thanks George and Jeff. The image examples help a lot!

[Exhibitman]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4093/4865955439_4ca9f04f62_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/8pZi2r)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7148/6635859503_3c7b51dded_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/b7ovQK)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4139/4815784952_40029b853d_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/8kya63)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4102/4865955447_cc4f37e37f_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/8pZi2z)

Type 5 dull finish or just another four?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous5/websize/1936%20R314%20Greenberg.jpg

[MikeGarcia]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1937GREENBERG_NEW.JPG


....the ''washed out'' is really well-named... Greenberg is the only player to be in all 5 types ...
I've noticed PSA gets about 20 % of my submissions mis-labeled . The kids in Joe's basement do not know vintage...

[MikeGarcia]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/MOOTYALMADA_NEW.JPG

[conor912]

I don't remember if it was VCBC or Old Cardboard, but one of them did a long, great article (it may have even been a series of articles) on these issues, explaining in great detail the differences, etc. Track it down if you can...definitely worth reading.

[Exhibitman]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1937GREENBERG_NEW.JPG


....the ''washed out'' is really well-named... Greenberg is the only player to be in all 5 types ...
I've noticed PSA gets about 20 % of my submissions mis-labeled . The kids in Joe's basement do not know vintage...

Which is which?

[MikeGarcia]

...sorry ; the Type 5 Canadian Issue is on the left....

[PowderedH2O]

I've noticed that PSA has no clue as to the types. Their registry set is one big clump that has some of the cards, but not all of them. SGC has it neatly organized for each of the five types, but I have noticed that about half of the SGC cards have the type listed, and half don't. Is there an explanation for this? Does the submitter need to list the type to get it put on there? Also, if I have ones that are not listed by Type, will SGC add the type to it without regarding the card?

[Shoebox]

I've noticed that PSA has no clue as to the types. Their registry set is one big clump that has some of the cards, but not all of them. SGC has it neatly organized for each of the five types, but I have noticed that about half of the SGC cards have the type listed, and half don't. Is there an explanation for this? Does the submitter need to list the type to get it put on there? Also, if I have ones that are not listed by Type, will SGC add the type to it without regarding the card?

You are correct that the registries are a hot mess for this set. I submitted a couple I had to SGC last month. I included the type information on the form and they included it on the flip. If you don't put it on the form they won't designate it. I put the odds at 90% that if you put the wrong type on the form it will get slabbed with the wrong type listed. One of the cards I submitted was a Type 4 Carl Hubbell. Most of the information on the set refers to it as 1936 Goudey Wide Pen but from what I have read apparently the Type 4s were issued in 37 so in the pop reports for SGC you will find data for four different ways they have slabbed the card. As a 1936 with and without the type designation and as a 1937. I wasnt sure what to put when I submitted mine so just went with the 1936 year. From what I can tell no one that matters to the TPGs care enough about this set for them to care about getting it right.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj594/Drinkmorebeer/PhotoGrid_1453659663064-1_zpsgwolllkb.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/Drinkmorebeer/media/PhotoGrid_1453659663064-1_zpsgwolllkb.jpg.html)

[timn1]

Where have you been looking, anyway? Old Cardboard is the best repository of info on this and many many sets, including the Pens.

http://www.oldcardboard.com/r/r313/r313.asp?cardsetID=870

Start here, and if you really want the most info, order copies of issues 6 and 7. There is a lot of stuff there about all these sets that has never appeared anywhere else.

Cheers,
Tim

[Shoebox]

Tim,

Thanks for the information regarding those back issues. I will get those ordered. The Old Cardboard website has pretty limited information on the set. The player checklist for the Wide Pens is incomplete and doesnt attempt to explain the different types.

[timn1]

That's because they didn't want to repeat all the info from the articles (gotta sell some issues to stay afloat, after all). But I think you'll find a trove in those issues-

Tim

[jsq]

the type 4 cards were called cream colored canadian wide pens in the 70's. last fall, for the first time in about 40 years, i was discussing this with a hobby writer. since i described the type 4 set by its 1974 era name - cream colored canadian wide pens - he thought i had gone a bit senile when i mentioned that it had feller, dimaggio, hubbell, etc in the set, and me thinking the american cream colored set of 25 american stars were canadian.

they may have been issued in canada, i do not know. that is what the most advanced collectors identified the type 4 set as in the mid 70's. at that time they WERE called cream colored american r314 wide pens.

since that fall of 2015 conversation i see that now the cream colored canadians refer to the canadian player and detroit only issue from what i gather. this of course represents a different era, different knowlede. in the 70's i was not aware of the canadian issue which had obscure canadian players and some detroit players as i recall.

in 1974 i uncovered, likely, the largest grouping of type 4 r314's ever found. i had 3 complete sets of 25 and some extras. their are currently less then that # on the psa registery now if i read the registry correctly.

the type 4 set of 25 was american players with dimaggio, feller, gehringer, hartnett, appling, king carl, etc in that small set of 25.

dick reuss and many of the MAJOR collectors of the day were extremely excited about this find. dick reuss i bring up as he is mentioned in another recent posting about soaking cards from album pages in a 1970 hobby article. dick hung around with frank nagy as i recall.

the premiums were much more valued then the cards in the card sets ie a r312 premium was way more interesting to the advanced collectors then the 1933 or 1935 goudeys for instance since the advanced collectors all had complete sets (minus typically lajoie) of the card sets but advanced collectors had only a VERY few of the premiums in most cases from the 1930's sets. the premiums are exponentially rarer but also now exponentially less desired from what i have seen on ebay.

that reminds of a saying i used to say quite a bit about rare items:

the only thing rarer then this collectible is the collector who is willing to buy it!

all the best,
jsq

You are correct that the registries are a hot mess for this set. I submitted a couple I had to SGC last month. I included the type information on the form and they included it on the flip. If you don't put it on the form they won't designate it. I put the odds at 90% that if you put the wrong type on the form it will get slabbed with the wrong type listed. One of the cards I submitted was a Type 4 Carl Hubbell. Most of the information on the set refers to it as 1936 Goudey Wide Pen but from what I have read apparently the Type 4s were issued in 37 so in the pop reports for SGC you will find data for four different ways they have slabbed the card. As a 1936 with and without the type designation and as a 1937. I wasnt sure what to put when I submitted mine so just went with the 1936 year. From what I can tell no one that matters to the TPGs care enough about this set for them to care about getting it right.


http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj594/Drinkmorebeer/PhotoGrid_1453659663064-1_zpsgwolllkb.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/Drinkmorebeer/media/PhotoGrid_1453659663064-1_zpsgwolllkb.jpg.html)

[jsq]

Shoebox,

thank you for the kind words.

no i do not own any of these. i likely will pick up one on ebay when i get around to it as a fond remembrance.

the cards i obtained were a walk in at the chicago card show in summer or fall of 1974 and came with a box of 1935 - 1941 cards and various other premiums. the seller also had a box of publications which were bought by another table holder.

i sold all of my collection and vast inventory of old cards by 1978 or so. i had expenses and other opportunities that worked out quite well for me. so this is a fond memory. i was in love with bb history and the cards of course were a big part of that and this is a nice way to revisit that history.

i was thinking about the psa registry of type 4 premiums. since the feller card is so dominant, as i recall, it occurs to me either the feller was only issued in the type 4 set so they can't muck up the type designation but additionally as feller was so deservedly popular as a young phenom, i suspect they printed and distributed a whole lot more fellers then the other players. also take a look at the dimaggio premium. this was before he got his teeth fixed and yes, he looks like a horse. yikes!, i thought my teeth were bad.

shoebox, also when you get the back issues of the magazine that has detailed articles on this subject could you post what you find related to the type 4 according to the writer of those articles. i think myself and others would find it interesting why they think these are 1937 vs 1936 for the type 1 issuance. i am presuming team uniform is the give away but????

i will add these comments to the fine thread on this subject in case some others have some interest.
all the best,
jsq

[Shoebox]

Thanks for sharing the story of your find. I will post any details I find in the articles regarding the issue year of the Type 4s.

[jimtb]

Hi everyone, I've been a weekly reader for several years, but haven't posted before. I'm working on the Detroit Tigers variations from the 1936 Goudey Premiums, and trying not to get confused. This Greenberg is labeled as Type 2, but it's actually Type 4, correct?
Thanks for the help!
Jim

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa335/jimtb/greenberg%201936_zpshooyoepj.jpg

[MikeGarcia]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1936PSAGREENBERG_NEW.JPG



..the kids at PSA have always had trouble with the '36 -'37 Premiums...yes that is indeed a 1937 Type 4 ' creamy'...whoever just bought it should be allowed to return it ... I keep these errors out of sentiment...

..

[jimtb]

Thanks for the information. I wanted to make sure I was correct. PSA can't keep them straight, heck I'm having a hard time keeping them straight!

[MikeGarcia]

Several of us here on the board have all or most of the cards you're interested in so you've come to the right place for any questions . Stay in touch . Are you going to be setting up a PM on here (54) ?...otherwise this thread is also fine for communicating.

..Welcome to the board ; you're gonna love it..

.

[Leon]

What a trove you found!!

And your bit about the saying concerning rare cards reminds me of another saying concerning auctions...

The most under appreciated bidder is the under bidder. :) . Great info in this thread and I agree, the OC magazines are a must.

the type 4 cards were called cream colored canadian wide pens in the 70's. last fall, for the first time in about 40 years, i was discussing this with a hobby writer. since i described the type 4 set by its 1974 era name - cream colored canadian wide pens - he thought i had gone a bit senile when i mentioned that it had feller, dimaggio, hubbell, etc in the set, and me thinking the american cream colored set of 25 american stars were canadian.

they may have been issued in canada, i do not know. that is what the most advanced collectors identified the type 4 set as in the mid 70's. at that time they WERE called cream colored american r314 wide pens.

since that fall of 2015 conversation i see that now the cream colored canadians refer to the canadian player and detroit only issue from what i gather. this of course represents a different era, different knowlede. in the 70's i was not aware of the canadian issue which had obscure canadian players and some detroit players as i recall.

in 1974 i uncovered, likely, the largest grouping of type 4 r314's ever found. i had 3 complete sets of 25 and some extras. their are currently less then that # on the psa registery now if i read the registry correctly.

the type 4 set of 25 was american players with dimaggio, feller, gehringer, hartnett, appling, king carl, etc in that small set of 25.

dick reuss and many of the MAJOR collectors of the day were extremely excited about this find. dick reuss i bring up as he is mentioned in another recent posting about soaking cards from album pages in a 1970 hobby article. dick hung around with frank nagy as i recall.

the premiums were much more valued then the cards in the card sets ie a r312 premium was way more interesting to the advanced collectors then the 1933 or 1935 goudeys for instance since the advanced collectors all had complete sets (minus typically lajoie) of the card sets but advanced collectors had only a VERY few of the premiums in most cases from the 1930's sets. the premiums are exponentially rarer but also now exponentially less desired from what i have seen on ebay.

that reminds of a saying i used to say quite a bit about rare items:

the only thing rarer then this collectible is the collector who is willing to buy it!

all the best,
jsq

[KMayUSA6060]

I apologize if this has already been answered, but what are the measurements on this card? Are they significantly larger than the average card?

[pherbener]

I apologize if this has already been answered, but what are the measurements on this card? Are they significantly larger than the average card?

This Joe D. Measures 3.25" X 5.5"

https://c3.staticflickr.com/2/1713/25392139226_98b71644ca_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/EFPmkU)1936 DiMaggio rookie (https://flic.kr/p/EFPmkU) by Paul Herbener (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137748538@N02/), on Flickr

[PowderedH2O]

I recently read an article (maybe one of you wrote it) in which it was discussed that perhaps the Type 4 and 5 should carry the "V" label and not actually be considered R314 at all. Is that just someone's opinion, or is there any validity in that thought? If so, has that actually ever been considered?

[Cozumeleno]

I recently read an article (maybe one of you wrote it) in which it was discussed that perhaps the Type 4 and 5 should carry the "V" label and not actually be considered R314 at all. Is that just someone's opinion, or is there any validity in that thought? If so, has that actually ever been considered?

Sam - that sounds like the article that I wrote for my website a while back linked here (https://prewarcards.com/2017/03/27/r314-and-v352-goudey-wide-pen-photos-in-need-of-proper-classification/). I've never seen it definitely stated anywhere but given that you can't find V352s anywhere at all and that, as Burdick describes in the ACC, they are creamy-bordered and similar to the R314s, I'm pretty sure those are it.

[PowderedH2O]

That is exactly where I saw it. Your website is full of great information and opinions. I think it makes some valid points about the Type 4 and 5 cards. It certainly explains the player selection, different dates, and scarcity differences.

[timn1]

on these sets in Old Cardboard.

Back issues are available here:

http://www.oldcardboard.com/subscriptions.asp

Where have you been looking, anyway? Old Cardboard is the best repository of info on this and many many sets, including the Pens.

http://www.oldcardboard.com/r/r313/r313.asp?cardsetID=870

Start here, and if you really want the most info, order copies of issues 6 and 7. There is a lot of stuff there about all these sets that has never appeared anywhere else.

Cheers,
Tim

[Cozumeleno]

Thanks - appreciate it.

That is exactly where I saw it. Your website is full of great information and opinions. I think it makes some valid points about the Type 4 and 5 cards. It certainly explains the player selection, different dates, and scarcity differences.