Overpriced cards

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Do you ever look at eBay and get sick of the same overpriced cards (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-Cracker-Jack-69-John-McGraw-PSA-4-Vg-Ex-HOFer-/121465965085?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c47ef8a1d) being re-listed for weeks or months on end? I get it that some people will just endlessly fish for that one rube who will overspend but sheesh...

[1952boyntoncollector]

overpriced cards good for the auction .99 market if you are a seller cause buyers will pay more at auction knowing dealers charging way too much ...

[HerbK]

Yep, I sure do. Same old sellers - over and over. And another trend I'm tiring of, is the scrunching of reprints (and seeing reprints listed is bad enough even in pristine condition), and selling them for .01 cent. ONE CENT. Really?

[glynparson]

I do not have my searches set so broadly that a few of the same listings really do not bother me. Not hard to look past a few cards. Never understood the complaints in all honesty.

[brewing]

Yep, I sure do. Same old sellers - over and over. And another trend I'm tiring of, is the scrunching of reprints (and seeing reprints listed is bad enough even in pristine condition), and selling them for .01 cent. ONE CENT. Really?


I have no problem with the 1 cent reprints.

[jefferyepayne]

Do you ever look at eBay and get sick of the same overpriced cards (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-Cracker-Jack-69-John-McGraw-PSA-4-Vg-Ex-HOFer-/121465965085?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c47ef8a1d) being re-listed for weeks or months on end? I get it that some people will just endlessly fish for that one rube who will overspend but sheesh...

I just consider their stuff a "museum" instead of an auction and move on. There is one particular item that is priced at $49,000 that last sold for $2,100. It's been "available" now for years. I've been tempted to send the seller a note and ask why he think this is even remotely possible but haven't bothered.

jeff

[Peter_Spaeth]

I do not have my searches set so broadly that a few of the same listings really do not bother me. Not hard to look past a few cards. Never understood the complaints in all honesty.

Plus, there are times when a seller with a wild list price will accept a reasonable offer.

[4815162342]

What gets my goat is that every time I buy a card it's way overpriced, but when I sell a card it's way underpriced. :p

[Leon]

What gets my goat is that every time I buy a card it's way overpriced, but when I sell a card it's way underpriced. :p

You obviously haven't mastered the art of shill bidding...(me neither and me too, on your statement)

I have seen things on ebay for years and years....made offers and no acceptance. So they sit....

[pbspelly]

I think it would be great if eBay had an automatic markdown system like Filene's used to have. After 14 days, the price drops. Another 14 days, another drop. Etc. Or perhaps eBay could start increasing the listing fee the longer something has remained unsold. I know there are some logistical issues to these ideas (what's to stop someone from just starting a listing all over again), but I just find it really annoying when sellers use eBay as a perpetual show window for overpriced items they really don't have much interest in selling. I don't see how it is in eBay's interest, either.

[Runscott]

Do you ever look at eBay and get sick of the same overpriced cards (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-Cracker-Jack-69-John-McGraw-PSA-4-Vg-Ex-HOFer-/121465965085?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c47ef8a1d) being re-listed for weeks or months on end? I get it that some people will just endlessly fish for that one rube who will overspend but sheesh...

Super-old topic, but I'll play: If you were buying cards on ebay ten years ago, I'm sure you remember the great straight auctions, especially when collections or finds were auctioned off at the same time. We would hang out in chat and talk about them. Very exciting stuff.

Ebay purposely changed all that, so now you have high-priced BIN's.

So here is some wisdom for you: not all ebay buyers are as smart as you. And even the smart ones now feel that ALL BIN cards are probably overpriced - sure, they could look up values, but it's now more of a psychological thing. If I price all of my cards at a price that will earn me five cents profit - guess what? They won't sell for the asking price (or they rarely will). I'll get low-balled by a certain percentage on every one of them. The take-home message is that buyers aren't looking for a fair deal - they are looking for a steal. So to play the game, sellers overprice their cards, buyers then respond with a discounted offer, and the cards sell.

No, sellers aren't looking for a "rube" - they are looking to stay in business. If I showed you my accounting for this year you would stop whining.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even if sellers are searching for the one rube, why isn't that their business? Don't be the rube then, and move on.

[Runscott]

I think it would be great if eBay had an automatic markdown system like Filene's used to have. After 14 days, the price drops. Another 14 days, another drop. Etc. Or perhaps eBay could start increasing the listing fee the longer something has remained unsold. I know there are some logistical issues to these ideas (what's to stop someone from just starting a listing all over again), but I just find it really annoying when sellers use eBay as a perpetual show window for overpriced items they really don't have much interest in selling. I don't see how it is in eBay's interest, either.

If dealer's could stay in business with such a system, I'm sure they would be fine with it. But if they could not, they would leave ebay.

All anyone is looking for is a fair playing field with a fee structure that allows a reasonable profit. You also need to keep in mind that not all sellers possess the same business sense or skills - some have hit on workable formulas, while some have not. I don't know if the guys with 100% mark-ups are making money or not. I know that some accept very discounted offers and I know that some do not. I also know that some who do not have been in business for many, many, many years, so they are doing something right.

[Luke]

A lot of the problem is that ebay's fees are way too high. It doesn't really make much sense to do all the work (scanning, pricing, packing, shipping) and pay ebay 10% and then take your chances with an auction listing on ebay. You're just not going to recoup your money very often and you're out your time. I also scratch my head when I see cards priced at like 10x retail, but as a guy who sells on ebay, I understand it to some degree.

A simple business model of selling nice vintage cards at auction on ebay would result in the seller going broke eventually. This doesn't apply to guys like just_collect who are buying collections at massive discounts. But a weekend warrior type seller who gets some good buys here and there, and tries to sell at a small profit to feed their card habit just can't do it on ebay with market value (the prices realized on the BST for example) retail prices.

[brian1961]

So here is some wisdom for you: not all ebay buyers are as smart as you. And even the smart ones now feel that ALL BIN cards are probably overpriced - sure, they could look up values, but it's now more of a psychological thing. If I price all of my cards at a price that will earn me five cents profit - guess what? They won't sell for the asking price (or they rarely will). I'll get low-balled by a certain percentage on every one of them. The take-home message is that buyers aren't looking for a fair deal - they are looking for a steal. So to play the game, sellers overprice their cards, buyers then respond with a discounted offer, and the cards sell.

No, sellers aren't looking for a "rube" - they are looking to stay in business. If I showed you my accounting for this year you would stop whining.

Scott, very well expressed. Among the key statements you make is one I shall repeat yet again:

"The take-home message is that buyers aren't looking for a fair deal - they are looking for a steal."

The smug remarks from almost every National attendee was how cards were so ridiculously overpriced. Just wait 'til its THEIR time to sell. The National vendors conduct their business just as they do on eBay. Price something nice very steep. Then negotiate with a serious buyer. As for someone who loves the card, but grimaces at the price and won't even ask about a counter offer---HERE THEN is the stupid one.

---Brian Powell

[auggiedoggy]

overpriced cards good for the auction .99 market if you are a seller cause buyers will pay more at auction knowing dealers charging way too much ...

When I auction my cards starting at $0.99 I lose out on the deal 9 times out of 10. Now I avoid auction-style listings on eBay unless I protect myself by setting a reserve.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Why did God create sportscard collectors?






Someone has to pay full retail.

[Runscott]

Scott, very well expressed. Among the key statements you make is one I shall repeat yet again:

"The take-home message is that buyers aren't looking for a fair deal - they are looking for a steal."

The smug remarks from almost every National attendee was how cards were so ridiculously overpriced. Just wait 'til its THEIR time to sell. The National vendors conduct their business just as they do on eBay. Price something nice very steep. Then negotiate with a serious buyer. As for someone who loves the card, but grimaces at the price and won't even ask about a counter offer---HERE THEN is the stupid one.

---Brian Powell

Thanks Brian. I hate to get into that discussion, as I completely understand the frustration of ebay buyers and naturally, I don't want to alienate them; however, many of the ones who post here are making no effort to understand what's happening. I think if you are going to complain about ebay in this manner, you should also post your ebay handle. That way the sellers who you dislike so much can save you the problem of accidentally bidding in their auctions.

As a buyer, you can filter out sellers whose prices you dislike - it is very easy. I use that feature to filter out keyword spammers, but you can do it for any seller.

[bnorth]

I must be in the minority. I think eBay/paypal fees are very reasonable. Try opening a real store once and see what your expenses are. Trust me you will no longer complain about eBay fees.

My one slight complaint on eBay fees are that they are a flat % now. I liked the old step system. On higher end items the fees should be slightly lower than on cheap items under $100.

I have never understood those that go into a brick and mortar store and think that eBay prices are what they should pay. eBay is a crap shoot at best, in the B/M store you get to look at and touch the actual merchandise you are going to buy. This goes for everything not just our hobby of cards.

[HerbK]

So here is some wisdom for you: not all ebay buyers are as smart as you. And even the smart ones now feel that ALL BIN cards are probably overpriced - sure, they could look up values, but it's now more of a psychological thing. If I price all of my cards at a price that will earn me five cents profit - guess what?

Yes... thank you for that.

I think what the OP was referring to - and what I agree with, were cards that were being listed at 4x and 5x their value. If a $1000 card is listed for $5000, there is little chance that a mutual agreement can be made with that level of disparity. There's no "meeting in the middle" with a $4000 differential. No one is inferring that your mark-up should be "five cents".... that's silly. But if you think you're going to be successful with all your cards being marked up 500% ... guess what?

[Runscott]

Yes... thank you for that.

I think what the OP was referring to - and what I agree with, were cards that were being listed at 4x and 5x their value. If a $1000 card is listed for $5000, there is little chance that a mutual agreement can be made with that level of disparity. There's no "meeting in the middle" with a $4000 differential. No one is inferring that your mark-up should be "five cents".... that's silly. But if you think you're going to be successful with all your cards being marked up 500% ... guess what?

You are welcome.

I used 'five cents' as an example - go re-read it if you don't understand my point. I don't need to guess about the effects of 500% mark-ups, as I don't condone it and I don't think it's a successful business model. You'll need to build a more reasonable straw man if you want to have a discussion.

[asoriano]

Yikes, that McGraw is overpriced and overgraded!

[HerbK]

I used 'five cents' as an example - go re-read it if you don't understand my point. I don't need to guess about the effects of 500% mark-ups, as I don't condone it and I don't think it's a successful business model. You'll need to build a more reasonable straw man if you want to have a discussion.

I totally understand your point.... you're the one who stated concerns about your mark-up being "five cents", not me. If you think your profits should be somewhere in the area of say, 25% for example (which would be reasonable), then you should have stated that.

The discussion is a valid one .... There's no logic whatsoever in listing cards (or anything for that matter) on eBay with a 500% mark-up. I know there's always a fool to occasionally pull the trigger ... but those are few and far between.

[Runscott]

I totally understand your point.... you're the one who stated concerns about your mark-up being "five cents", not me. If you think your profits should be somewhere in the area of say, 25% for example (which would be reasonable), then you should have stated that.

The discussion is a valid one .... There's no logic whatsoever in listing cards (or anything for that matter) on eBay with a 500% mark-up. I know there's always a fool to occasionally pull the trigger ... but those are few and far between.

You took my statement out of context, or I didn't explain it well. I said: "If I price all of my cards at a price that will earn me five cents profit - guess what? They won't sell for the asking price (or they rarely will)." My point being that EVEN if I only ask for a nickel profit, they still will rarely sell for the asking price.

Ebay has evolved to a point that some (if not most) buyers assume a mark-up above market value, that might not even exist. From my example, maybe it is only 5 cents, but the buyer is assuming it is much higher. Most simply aren't educated about values - this forum is certainly an exception.

Edited to add: I really don't want to get into my own selling strategy much, but I think that it is imperative for sellers to have a very good understanding of current market values for the items they are selling. If you don't know what your items are worth, and you only have a small number listed, your mark-up has to be higher than a high-volume dealer who is a smart buyer and understands market values. But everyone has a different business model. I remember being outbid a few years ago on a beautiful T205 set. I went as high as I possibly could, given my pricing strategy and overhead. But I later saw the set broken out on ebay by a huge dealer who had thousands of items listed. These cards were marked up much higher than I would have felt comfortable with, but the seller is a bright guy, so it must be working for him. Basically, if you have enough inventory and enough capital, you can do anything you want, but that's true of anything.

[whiteymet]

This guy has had this up for months!


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ORIGINAL-1958-WORLD-CHAMPIONS-NEW-YORK-YANKEES-BASEBALL-TEAM-PHOTO-/321161002778?pt=US_Autographs&hash=item4ac6afff1a

[bnorth]

This guy has had this up for months!


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ORIGINAL-1958-WORLD-CHAMPIONS-NEW-YORK-YANKEES-BASEBALL-TEAM-PHOTO-/321161002778?pt=US_Autographs&hash=item4ac6afff1a

This card has been on eBay for over 3 years. http://www.ebay.com/itm/no-F-SCRIBBLE-RIPKEN-F-K-FACE-FLEER-CARD1989-RARE-1k-/260806975840?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb94ea160

The description is a total BS lie. I own more than 6 of those exact same cards and is a $10 card shipped on a good day.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Some Dealers are just in love of the hobby.....when they cant deal a card and say 'ill just keep it' that really means they dont want to sell at market price....or even a price where someone will actually buy it....they can do whatever with their cards but a lot of dealers are really well off and just sell for fun and if they make money even better

when the housing market crashed it was funny to hear 'i cant sell my house' they would say that meaning noone wanted to pay the seller price...but obviosuly was we know the market price went very low so they really should of said 'i can't sell my house at my price'

same with cards...dealers can ask what they want ..and again that allows the non-dealers to move some cards at a decent profit because many of the apparently 'available' cards on ebay or not really available..so im all for cards being listed at 5x value..

[Runscott]

Some Dealers are just in love of the hobby.....when they cant deal a card and say 'ill just keep it' that really means they dont want to sell at market price....or even a price where someone will actually buy it....they can do whatever with their cards but a lot of dealers are really well off and just sell for fun and if they make money even better

when the housing market crashed it was funny to hear 'i cant sell my house' they would say that meaning noone wanted to pay the seller price...but obviosuly was we know the market price went very low so they really should of said 'i can't sell my house at my price'

same with cards...dealers can ask what they want ..and again that allows the non-dealers to move some cards at a decent profit because many of the apparently 'available' cards on ebay or not really available..so im all for cards being listed at 5x value..

Is this all theory, or do you actually know wealthy dealers who put things up for sale that they don't actually want to sell? Does this theory only apply to areas where you assume the wealthy are simply flaunting their wealth, or does it apply to all supposed retail businesses (who are all really just wealthy 'collectors')? e.g: car dealers, mobile home sellers, basically all the businesses you walk by on main street?

I'm just curious. You've separated out "dealers" from "non-dealers", with "dealers" being people who don't actually have any interest in selling anything. The only ones who want to sell are "non-dealers" :confused:

[1952boyntoncollector]

I think everyone on the forum knows of certain dealers that have cards listed for years. I have had dealers on ebay tell me they have "200k+ etc of inventory" and do not need to sell" So im basing it out of experience and if a card is listed for a year, they obviously arent selling it at market price or have a real interest to sell. Proof is in the pudding.

Not saying all dealers of course.

[HerbK]

You took my statement out of context, or I didn't explain it well.

Ok - gotcha.

[LEHR]

I probably have 20-25 items on my eBay watch list that have sat there for over a year at the same price. Or the seller may occasionally lower there $300-$500 item $10-$20 for a "sale". I keep thinking that someday maybe one of the sellers will wake up and realize that there item is obviously overpriced. No luck yet.

[pbspelly]

In my opinion, eBay needs to do something about the high prices if it wants to regain its popularity. From a buyer's perspective, the whole point of eBay is to get a good deal. There's always a certain amount of risk involved in an eBay transaction, so if you are not going to get a good deal--a discount off of retail market price--there's little point to using eBay. It is usually safer to buy somewhere else. Nowadays, though, there are so few bargains on eBay that a lot of buyers, myself included, don't even bother looking all that often. Which is a big reason that eBay's growth has stalled apart from its paypal unit.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you go on eBay and search for Mach 3 razors. A bunch of sellers come up listing an 8-pack at a BIN price of $15.99. Why on earth would I buy from them when I could get the same thing from Amazon for $15.25? And not have to worry who they're coming from, whether they are defective, and whether I have recourse if they are. Yet eBay doesn't seem to do anything to encourage those sellers to lower their price.

EBay, and those who sell on it, need to understand that it is a discount marketplace and buyers are not going to use it if they don't get a discount.

I sell things on eBay sometimes, but I understand beforehand that I am not likely to get the same price that I would if I sold it in a store. At the same time, I am likely to get a much higher price than I would selling it in a yard sale on my lawn.

Now, obviously vintage baseball cards are different than razors, since you can't just go get what you want at your neighborhood supermarket. But still, if eBay wants to attract buyers, it needs to encourage discounts more than it does, in my opinion. Instead, it seems to encourage people to list things at BIN prices and even recommends a market price for them. Which is why it's so hard to find good deals, and why eBay is becoming less and less popular.

Just my two cents.

[ullmandds]

In my opinion, eBay needs to do something about the high prices if it wants to regain its popularity. From a buyer's perspective, the whole point of eBay is to get a good deal. There's always a certain amount of risk involved in an eBay transaction, so if you are not going to get a good deal--a discount off of retail market price--there's little point to using eBay. It is usually safer to buy somewhere else. Nowadays, though, there are so few bargains on eBay that a lot of buyers, myself included, don't even bother looking all that often. Which is a big reason that eBay's growth has stalled apart from its paypal unit.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you go on eBay and search for Mach 3 razors. A bunch of sellers come up listing an 8-pack at a BIN price of $15.99. Why on earth would I buy from them when I could get the same thing from Amazon for $15.25? And not have to worry who they're coming from, whether they are defective, and whether I have recourse if they are. Yet eBay doesn't seem to do anything to encourage those sellers to lower their price.

EBay, and those who sell on it, need to understand that it is a discount marketplace and buyers are not going to use it if they don't get a discount.

I sell things on eBay sometimes, but I understand beforehand that I am not likely to get the same price that I would if I sold it in a store. At the same time, I am likely to get a much higher price than I would selling it in a yard sale on my lawn.

Now, obviously vintage baseball cards are different than razors, since you can't just go get what you want at your neighborhood supermarket. But still, if eBay wants to attract buyers, it needs to encourage discounts more than it does, in my opinion. Instead, it seems to encourage people to list things at BIN prices and even recommends a market price for them. Which is why it's so hard to find good deals, and why eBay is becoming less and less popular.

Just my two cents.

I don't think EBAY could care less about their vintage baseball card sales...honestly.

[pbspelly]

I don't think EBAY could care less about their vintage baseball card sales...honestly.

I wasn't just talking about vintage card sales. I meant eBay in general.

But now that you mention it, that may be one of the problems with eBay, that it doesn't care about vintage card sales. It ought to, because vintage cards are something you can't always get somewhere else. EBay ought to focus on (a) items you can't easily get somewhere else, and (b) items sold at a discount compared to what you'd pay somewhere else. Instead, it tries to be another Amazon. And loses.

[steve B]

One of the hard things for dealers is the need to balance selling inventory and having inventory. When it comes down to it, nearly all dealer stocks could be sold in under a month if they really wanted it gone. Some could even do that and still have profit.

In a way inventory is advertising.
How often do you pass by a table at a show because you take one look and just know they probably don't have what you're looking for?


Pricing that inventory so you have sales and profit, and enough better stuff to attract customers is harder than it seems. The biggest challenge at times is simply replacing inventory.
Shops- Generally have prices that are a bit high but need to be because of overhead. And many aren't all that flexible.
Shows - If someone only does shows, their prices are usually a bit lower, or there's more flexibility on price.
Flea markets - Yeah, flea markets. A whole range of pricing strategies. From everything dirt cheap because they don't want to drag it around anymore, to reasonable, to what I came to refer to as "imaginative" (The ones I used to go to were all under power lines- That might have something to do with the pricing. ;) ) Usually there's a load of flexibility. When I was selling at flea markets occasionally I had stuff marked with the catalog value or what I figured retail would be. Most stuff I'd take far less. The OJ rookie? Yeah, catalogs 90, but I'll take 20. The signature rookies signed Jeter? Nope, catalogs 30 and that's what I want. (And that should give you an idea how long ago that was) Many I'd take half of what was marked. But then I was only selling once a year or so.

Ebay for all they've done to try and make it more retail/amazon like is still like a big crazy flea market. And I think everyone is still trying to figure out the best way to make it work. Ebay themselves probably want the boatloads of overpriced things to stay. When someone looks the category says there are around 2.9 million baseball cards. Of course I'll look, there's probably something I want. Other online auction places have fewer, bidstart has about 64 thousand. And the impression is that there's nothing there to buy. So there's fewer buyers and sellers.
The two items shown - Looking at the sellers other stuff some of it is pretty reasonable. One seems to be unfamiliar with sports stuff other than it's worth a lot of money. The other does cards, and is a bit more reasonable on his other stuff.
High priced items can also be a bit of an ad, the two posted got me to look at their other stuff, so it's done better than a lot of other ads.
Retail does stuff like that all the time. When Toshiba had a 48 inch crt television the shop had a big sign out on the mall. "Come see the worlds largest crt television!" It was impressive, and got a lot of people into the store. Sports cars and sponsoring racing teams are the same thing. Chevy doesn't really make enough money on Corvettes, except for the people that go in to look and get something else.

Steve B

[Runscott]

I have had dealers on ebay tell me they have "200k+ etc of inventory" and do not need to sell" So im basing it out of experience and if a card is listed for a year, they obviously arent selling it at market price or have a real interest to sell. Proof is in the pudding.

Not saying all dealers of course.

The dealer who is telling you he does not need to sell, is probably responding to some needling you are giving him - we are only hearing one side of this. Dealers can be offended by lowball offers and say rude things. Embarrassed to say that I have responded unprofessionally at times when needled by a buyer who is trying to guilt me into giving him a deal, or who is simply trolling out of boredom.

Also, the fact that it's been on ebay for a year, does not mean it isn't at 'market price'. Items get stale and if something has been up on ebay for a long time as a BIN, the perception is sometimes that it is priced above market value. Or there might be legitimate buyer who feel like it's been available for a year, so it will be available 3-6 months later when they have the cash. The same item could be removed and placed in an auction outside of ebay, and sell for more. I often take 'stale' items and run them as straight auctions. Often they sell for more than my BIN price, even on ebay.

There are a lot of dynamics going on on ebay, which is why seller strategies vary so much. I recently put a bunch of autographs up at prices such that the offers I get would be hopefully be right about at my cost. Guess what? The offers are coming in below my cost. Could be that I paid too much, but it could also be that if I marked them up another 20-30%, the offers would come in either at cost or slightly above. Ebay can really be a head-game at times.

[Runscott]

Well-said Steve. Trying to think like someone running a business, when you want to buy something at a bargain, is impossible

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[Duluth Eskimo]

super-old topic, but i'll play: If you were buying cards on ebay ten years ago, i'm sure you remember the great straight auctions, especially when collections or finds were auctioned off at the same time. We would hang out in chat and talk about them. Very exciting stuff.

Ebay purposely changed all that, so now you have high-priced bin's.

So here is some wisdom for you: Not all ebay buyers are as smart as you. And even the smart ones now feel that all bin cards are probably overpriced - sure, they could look up values, but it's now more of a psychological thing. If i price all of my cards at a price that will earn me five cents profit - guess what? They won't sell for the asking price (or they rarely will). I'll get low-balled by a certain percentage on every one of them. The take-home message is that buyers aren't looking for a fair deal - they are looking for a steal. So to play the game, sellers overprice their cards, buyers then respond with a discounted offer, and the cards sell.

No, sellers aren't looking for a "rube" - they are looking to stay in business. If i showed you my accounting for this year you would stop whining.

+100

[kailes2872]

Ebay purposely changed all that, so now you have high-priced BIN's.



I see this mentioned a lot and I was just wondering if someone could add some color to the comment? When I post something that doesn't sell, they always recommend that I price it at $0.99 in auction format.

Did they change their fee structure to encourage BINs vs auction? I know that I have recently posted as Auctions (basically at BIN starting prices) because the $.30 insertion fee was waived - but I will will be the first to admit that I am a newbie on the selling side of Ebay and am probably not maximizing value.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Here is another problem with the "buyer" or "non-dealer" thinking. They want what they want, when they want at flea market or straight auction price. As someone who sells on eBay, I am constantly looking for high quality items at a lower than expected price that I think I can make money on. I am not shopping for exact items like most buyers do. Sellers often get emails from buyers stating, "I just saw a similar item for $". My response is why didn't you buy it then. Buyers also don't always take condition in to account for memorabilia. They want NRMt items for Vg or Ex price. They also want to want to take credit for all the searching, finding, knowledge, and connections that sellers have made for years and not allow a seller to profit from that work or knowledge.

I would also like to comment on someone's previous assertion that eBay is a place to find deals. eBay marketing would definitely disagree with you. eBay markets itself as an online shopping marketplace. They want to encourage shoppers to come on there for their birthday purchase for their father or an item they cannot find somewhere else. I sell a lot of items to people buying gifts for someone else that are absolutely elated to find the item that their special person has always talked about, etc. That is the customer eBay wants, not a bunch of collectors like us.

I have said this before many times, if you don't like what someone has or what it's priced, strike up a conversation with them and ask for a lower price. If they don't want to sell it for that price just move on. Jason

[pbspelly]

I would also like to comment on someone's previous assertion that eBay is a place to find deals. eBay marketing would definitely disagree with you. eBay markets itself as an online shopping marketplace. They want to encourage shoppers to come on there for their birthday purchase for their father or an item they cannot find somewhere else. I sell a lot of items to people buying gifts for someone else that are absolutely elated to find the item that their special person has always talked about, etc. That is the customer eBay wants, not a bunch of collectors like us.


And that is a crucial mistake that eBay marketing is making. Because the public does not view eBay as a place to pay full price due to the inherent risk of buying from someone you only know by an eBay name. If you saw a card that you wanted on eBay for $1000 from some seller you didn't know, but you could buy the same card at REA for $1000 (counting the buyer's premium), you would probably buy the REA card because it would seem safer.

As I said, eBay is indeed a place for items that you can't easily get somewhere else. But if what is being sold is something that can be found elsewhere, it needs to be sold at a discount on eBay or no one is going to buy it. When eBay tries to be another Amazon, it loses.

[Runscott]

And that is a crucial mistake that eBay marketing is making. Because the public does not view eBay as a place to pay full price due to the inherent risk of buying from someone you only know by an eBay name. If you saw a card that you wanted on eBay for $1000 from some seller you didn't know, but you could buy the same card at REA for $1000 (counting the buyer's premium), you would probably buy the REA card because it would seem safer.

As I said, eBay is indeed a place for items that you can't easily get somewhere else. But if what is being sold is something that can be found elsewhere, it needs to be sold at a discount on eBay or no one is going to buy it. When eBay tries to be another Amazon, it loses.

That isn't true for all sellers and it isn't the perception of all buyers. Many buyers would much rather use the simplicity of paying through Paypal, and get their card quickly, as opposed to having to pay with a check and wait 3-4 weeks. I'm sure there is still a lot of trailer park mentality on ebay, but ebay's goal has been to move away from that, and it actually has been successful.

[steve B]

Ebay is a strange place for sure.

Not everyone is looking for a bargain, or at least not looking for what would be an obvious bargain.

When I was selling I'd occasionally ask buyers a question or two after the sale was complete. Especially of there was something unusual about the sale.

I sold a bike part to one guy in an auction, and it went for a bit over retail, maybe 5-6 dollars over on a $20 item. Brand new and readily available a most bicycle shops. (I bought a bunch on closeout from our wholesaler and did really well. ) So I asked out of curiosity why he'd been willing to go beyond retail even before the shipping amount. The answer was that he only had two "local" bike shops. One was a two hour round trip, the other more like 4-5 hours. And as he put it "I won't go to the closer one unless I'm desperate because the guy's a D***" So to him saving a 4-5 hour round trip was easily worth paying a few dollars extra.

Of course we all want to get that card right now and for a great price.....Who wouldn't?

The question about the BINs - A long while ago they changed the fee structure for people with stores. Lower or no insertion fees for fixed price, but a higher monthly fee for the store or something like that. For someone organized it was a good deal. I ran into problems if I had more than 20-30 items a week, missing emails, or not getting stuff shipped quickly enough. Quick enough for me that is, I put handling time as 5 days or something, but typically got stuff out within 24 hours. But a few late night trips to storage for an item I'd forgotten to pick up a few more of was annoying. If I was organized enough to have a few hundred items the store would have been a good deal.

Then they made some auctions free insertion, probably to try to get the ratio of auction to fixed price items back to reasonable.

The ever shifting rules and expectations was a big part of what made me stop selling. But I need to start again.

Steve B

[Sean1125]

Plus, there are times when a seller with a wild list price will accept a reasonable offer.

That is how I am, I put wild asks, but off e-bay will knock off as much as 25-30%, which brings it well within reason.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Auction is a true market price. there are some high and lows at auction but thats the market. If you have something listed for a year its not at market price in the format its listed when selling a card. Simple as that.

When need to sell at market price, people usually dont have a year to wait around to sell the card. I think most people would agree if it takes more than 3 or so months to sell its not a market price for the time period. I have used a house analogy a few time. Yes if own a house you can list it for years and maybe sell it 4 years later, but houses go stale after 60-90s and are not considered to be at 'market price' Just because you sell an item 4 years later doesnt mean it was at market price the first year. People die in a year. Sellers and Buyers die.

You have a 1952 Mantle topps in 1965 in EX conditon and you want $17,000. Its not market price at the time. It is market price potentially now but who cares if you are dead by then. Thats why market price is for a more limited time period than a year traditionally for collectibles.

Also I think when Dealers say 'they dont need to sell' combined with the fact the card is listed for years. I dont think its in response to low ball offers. I think its they really dont need to sell...at market price...

[Runscott]

Auction is a true market price. there are some high and lows at auction but thats the market. If you have something listed for a year its not at market price in the format its listed when selling a card. Simple as that.

When need to sell at market price, people usually dont have a year to wait around to sell the card. I think most people would agree if it takes more than 3 or so months to sell its not a market price for the time period. I have used a house analogy a few time. Yes if own a house you can list it for years and maybe sell it 4 years later, but houses go stale after 60-90s and are not considered to be at 'market price' Just because you sell an item 4 years later doesnt mean it was at market price the first year. People die in a year. Sellers and Buyers die.

You have a 1952 Mantle topps in 1965 in EX conditon and you want $17,000. Its not market price at the time. It is market price potentially now but who cares if you are dead by then. Thats why market price is for a more limited time period than a year traditionally for collectibles.

Also I think when Dealers say 'they dont need to sell' combined with the fact the card is listed for years. I dont think its in response to low ball offers. I think its they really dont need to sell...at market price...

I don't agree with almost anything you stated above. The analogy of cards and houses is not a valid one. The strategy of selling using BIN's involves more than just pricing. It's true that if you only have a few items for sale, you need to turn them over very quickly. If you have more capital and can afford to have 500 items up for sale, as opposed to 10, 50, 100, even 200, then your volume, especially if it covers many categories, is going to cause ALL items to get more views, which means more sales. Every time I put 20 items up for sale on ebay, I get offers on other items that may have been sitting around for months. And if you add items consistently, the older items are going to have an even better chance of selling, again - because of the new views;i.e-people see your new items and then view 'by seller' and find your others.

And that is if you do nothing with the 'stale' items except let them just sit.

But think whatever you want. We've heard these complaints hundreds of times here - you have plenty of company.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Understood about BINs

but i am not against Dealers charging a lot. If you look at my posts i am quite happy because it allows non-dealors who are just hobbyist to get more for their cards than if the dealer prices were more competitive.

[Luke]

Yeah, I don't really agree either. An auction will establish market price only if all potential buyers are aware of the auction. You can say that REA establishes market prices, but the same is not true for ebay. All the time I see an auction end at $X, and then the same card is re-listed by mikedenero or someone like that at $2X, and it sells eventually.

I think true market value is somewhere in the middle. An auction on ebay will never maximize an item's sale price, but it may be best for the seller to move it right away. If a seller has a large inventory, they can afford to have that card sit at a higher price point until it sells (pretty much what Scott was saying I think). If I need to sell a card right away, I can't ask for the latest price that mikedenero just got for that same card (I could ask, but I'll hear crickets). One of the reasons some cards sell after 3 months at a higher price than auction results would indicate is that sometimes it took that long for the buyer to see it.

[Runscott]

Understood about BINs

but i am not against Dealers charging a lot. If you look at my posts i am quite happy because it allows non-dealors who are just hobbyist to get more for their cards than if the dealer prices were more competitive.

That's a good point. The only problem is that I really believe the high-volume fixed-price dealers get more for their cards because of volume. Basically, the chances are better that someone is looking for on of the cards up for sale - they don't have to sell ALL of them. A hobbyist, on the other hand, has far fewer cards up for sale at any one time, so the odds of finding someone who is looking for one of their specific cards, and willing to pay higher prices, are much lower.

The volume thing is critical. I have a volume number and a 'price above cost' percentage that I always try to stay at - if I keep the two going, sales roll in at a rate that I need. If I had a lower volume number I would have to turn my inventory over quicker, which would be more difficult because I would be missing the views generated by higher volumes. And to turn inventory over quicker, I would have to accept lower prices...meaning less profit. The ebay formula rewards high volume and fixed-prices. It drives out the low-volume guys any way you look at it.

[glynparson]

Only an indicator of the market for those that saw the auction. This idea that every auction ends for market price is laughable. I guess the brown old mill that sold in auction for around 20 or so is now only worth $20. The result of an auction would only be true market if the entire market for the card was engaged in the auction for it. Every auction even REA has some lots go for less then full value.

[Runscott]

Glyn, that is well-stated. 'Market value' is a tough concept for most collectors.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[tschock]

Another way to look at it is that rare baseball cards are not commodities, in the classical economics sense. Because of a niche market, auction and any sale prices are "skeptible" as well. Your best indicator as to current value is trends (as we all probably realize). The longer the trend, the more reasonably accurate. Where that falls short is near the change point of a trend.

That being said... it also seems that there are those trying to justify prices based on "staying in business" rather than considering the possibility that supply is up or demand is down within the niche market (among other things). It is very probably that you will not see ANY profit on certain cards and even remotely possible that you won't see any profit on ANY cards. There are many ways to go out of business.

Keep in mind that even "museum" pieces will probably sell some day. Maybe for the crazy 100% asking price, maybe the seller making the deal for the reasonable 50% off, or maybe the seller's heirs taking pennies on the dollar after the seller's gone.

The only true value of a card is what it sold for on that particular day. Anything beyond that is mere speculation on the behalf of the buyer or the seller.

[JollyElm]

I know this a post-war card, but I had to show it. A 1960 common--as common as can be--that keeps being put up by this same seller. How do you not laugh when you see it????!!!!

The BIN is $13 for a card you can find a thousand of for two bucks or less in an ebay search. $13!!!!!!!!!!! Plus…here's where it gets great…$7 for shipping!!!!! Seven frickin' bucks to ship this useless card. Oh, and did I mention there is writing/typing all over it??? $20 for a card you can pick up in any brick and mortar shop for less than a buck and he continues to list it time and time again and refuses to respond to my questions asking, "Why??"

165608

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-Topps-Dave-Philley-Philadelphia-Phillies-52-Baseball-Card-/231361167787?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35de3341ab

[Peter_Spaeth]

He's already said why.

1960 Topps Dave Philley Philadelphia Phillies #52 Baseball Card

Sharp, Great Color, Good Corners, Great Collectiable, A Great Investiment

Card in Good Shape No refunds, no international ship.

Compared at $80.00 Our Price $10.00 plus s/h

[byrone]

“There’s wholesale, there’s retail, and there’s fairytale”

[Econteachert205]

Price is truth

Ie

1. If you list an item on ebay with a 7 day auction you are more likely to gain a higher realized price than a 3 day auction

2. If you use rea you are more likely to gain a higher realized price than a local auctionzip listing.

3. If you list an auction with no reserve and there is a duration there is varying odds as to how many interested parties will engage in bidding

In all cases the price accurately reflects the market

Houses in 2007 sold for crazy money. Houses in 2011 sold for next to nothing. Both were accurate reflections of the markets. Like Henry Hazlitt said Americans are like Dr Jekyll and mr Hyde. We want the best deals as consumers and the highest prices as producers. I accept that in selling my cards that I have never sold for a "low price" or "high price". Only that I sold cards which reflected whatever the particular market I sold them in performed at at that time.


But I do agree that some people are just listing cards where no market will ever support them.

[1952boyntoncollector]

right i not saying, 1 auction on ebay for a week is market price...but if you look at say 7 auction results over a 7 week period...factor in the highs and the lows and you can average out a market price

the fact that you can say that the auction prices are not market price as a whole is laughable as ebay is a true market....its the dealers who are asking for an amount over market are the same ones that say REA and ebay auction prices on average are not market price....

in fact you can argue that if theres is only 1 or 2 bidders over a certain amount of money that market price is lower than what the card sold for because the winning bidder may no longer be a competeting bidder...if you see 5 or so bids over a certain amount than you know that certain amount in which the 5 or so unique bidders bid above is a safe baseline market....

thats why buy it now prices are terrible indicators of market price......

[1952boyntoncollector]

Only an indicator of the market for those that saw the auction. This idea that every auction ends for market price is laughable. I guess the brown old mill that sold in auction for around 20 or so is now only worth $20. The result of an auction would only be true market if the entire market for the card was engaged in the auction for it. Every auction even REA has some lots go for less then full value.

how can you say an REA lot that caters to the group that buys the cards and understands the nuances of card collecting sells some lots 'for less than full value'

thats like the people who say 'couldnt sell my house' they mean to say 'couldnt sell my house at market value'

i not sure what 'full value' is when you cant sell it a huge auction house with months of people viewing it....

the other issue with cards is we all know there are inherit problems with value down the line....gold is likely to keep its value 30 years from now more than cards..... so cards is the one thing that i wouldnt use the analogy like works of art to say 'everything sells eventually'...sells yes..but sells at prices that go over market value as determined by multiple auctions...we shall see

[1952boyntoncollector]

Why is it if auctions houses and ebay are far lower than market price are the majority of major profit from card dealers are from direct buy purchases from individuals....why arent the majority of the profit made from cards from purchases made on ebay and REA and resold at a an easy market value profit if ebay and rea are so routinely below market..should be real easy to make easy profit there?

maybe i am wrong and most profit is made on buying on ebay on bad auctions prices and circumstances (the 3 day auction versus 7 day auction for example)

but i think when buying in person and in bulk you will get a better deal on then you would on ebay/rea auctions...so my point being that ebay/rea are still in that 'retail' price world even during auctions that have been argued in this thread as to be much lower than the real value. Thus, they got to be close to market price because in most cases you cant just turn around and make a profit like you can in direct buys from individuals off ebay and auction house land...

but again i am not a dealer so perhaps ebay is a big source of resell income because auction prices are routinely so low ..and way below market

[Luke]

I don't mean to be rude, but you really need to use some punctuation if you want people to understand what you're saying. That first paragraph/stream of consciousness is very tough to follow. I'm pretty sure I still disagree, but it's hard to tell for sure.

The reason that most profit comes from private wholesale deals rather than ebay is pretty straight-forward. The big dealers use their reputations and connections to make large private purchases at a fraction of retail. There is some profit to be made from finding items that sell for cheap at an ebay auction. However, wading through ebay auctions probably isn't worth the time of the largest volume sellers.

[glynparson]

world if you honestly think every person in the market for a card sees it every time it is up for sale. It does not happen. I have many times bought cards from major auctions and sold them before i even received them. This idea that every collector in the country is aware of or remembers to bid in every auction is just unrealistic. As for your house argument not every house is maximized for profit either. That is why some people can buy and flip houses even without remodeling sometimes, just better or proper marketing (FSBO sales almost always lower than brokered sales). No market realizes maximum value every time an item is auctioned. It is just simple common sense. So you are telling me a brown old mill is only a $20 or so card because that was the auction result? Please, come on you can not truly believe this. I agree a card that sells every week in auction for relatively the same amount can be claimed to be market, but not things that not everyone sees or knows is listed. Many Topps test issues for example sell fairly reasonable when auctioned on ebay but sell for a lot more when sold straight retail because many people don't constantly search for them. The comics and pin ups from 1973 are just two major examples of this. I know PSA 8 Maris rookies also used to always sell fairly quickly for around 20-30% more than Ebay results (have not watched recently so don't know current trend on this card). Nothing that man controls is absolute or perfect in this world , and we control auction results. An example from another field I recently bought a JSA certified Andy Kauffman autograph for $40 from an auction advertised on this website, last ebay sale was 10-12x that so is the market really only $40 now because this item slipped through the cracks?

[toledo_mudhen]

I think it would be great if eBay had an automatic markdown system like Filene's used to have. After 14 days, the price drops. Another 14 days, another drop. Etc. Or perhaps eBay could start increasing the listing fee the longer something has remained unsold. I know there are some logistical issues to these ideas (what's to stop someone from just starting a listing all over again), but I just find it really annoying when sellers use eBay as a perpetual show window for overpriced items they really don't have much interest in selling. I don't see how it is in eBay's interest, either.

Yes more ePay rules for Sellers would be awesome!

[swarmee]

I have bought two 1969 Mantles recently...both on eBay. One in a lot with 10 other 1969 Topps Hall of Famers for $35 and one in a lot with two other Mantle cards and a Musial for $66. How did I get them that cheap? Neither lot had Mickey Mantle in the title. One of the listings got 17 different bidders, while the other probably had 4. Very few people actually saw these listings. One of the lots had Mantle spelled "Mantel" and the other didn't even show that the card was in the lot (except for his hands gripping the bat and the Louisville Slugger logo further up the card). eBay and even REA/major auction houses are places where imperfect knowledge reigns. Not everything is listed accurately, and many sellers suffer from poor/incomplete information. There is definitely a place to turn a profit just by reselling on eBay.
The real trick, for most people, isn't buying low and selling high. It's doing those and not siphoning profits off into a personal collection. ;-)

[1952boyntoncollector]

when we talking about mispelled listings etc...I think we all can agree that we wouldnt count those for market price....i would agree completely that a mickey Mantel spelling could result in a sale under market price...and if you looked at the link of the auction you would see that....thats just all the way on the other side of the spectrum...nothing to bring up in a market price argument..

the fact that you cant count on ebay sales to resell items on a regular basis means that they are going for close enough to market to not be able to sell

in addition, in a house analogy...even when the housing market goes down...people still will need a place to stay and rent. There is always some value in houses...there could be a time when cardboard is just cardboard..

this argument i am making about long term potential of a large downward trend is important when looking a the time period for 'market value' ..i would go a few months of sales...listing a card for a long period of time for the 'market value' risks the chance for the general downturn as a card is not a commodity versus a house......thus i would measure market price period for a limited time...if you needed money in the next 6 months to pay bills..i would think an REA auction etc spelled correctly would be considered the market price....yet on ebay you will see cards priced 20% higher listed for years...and i keep hearing that those prices are market price because ebay auctions are terrible indicators as they go for too low (even though you cant buy cards there and make a profit on a regular basis)

[4815162342]

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/293df8e7edf3110832d4ac4c0257881b83.png

[glynparson]

by definition has two components what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept. At an auction with no reserve and a nominal minimum bid the seller's acceptance to any offer is taken out of the equation.