N173 & Goodwin Album Certificate Discussion – A New Variation?

[Joe_G.]

Certificate Variation Identified (4 Different), see Post #1 for Details
5th New Certificate Found - "World's Champions" & "Floral", see Post #7 for Details
6th New Certificate Found - "Floral Album", see Post #10 & #14 for Details
7th New Certificate Found - West Coast Agents "Mau, Sadler & Co.", see Post #16 for Details
New Early Insert Found - "Trademark Important to Smokers", see Post #19 & #22 for Details
9th & 10th - New Variations (10 coupons & counting), see Post #23 for Details

Relaxing for the evening. Trying to erase a disappointing Tiger's game from memory and figured I'd post something that might interest a few people.

I recently realized a variation within the 1889 N173 certificates that was new to me. The Old Judge book displays two different certificates but a third variant, perhaps many more, exist. I believe each of the three certificates have sufficient information to assign the likely order in which they were issued. We do know that these certificates date to 1889 based on the dates found on the certificate as well as the 20 certificate requirement.

One year earlier, 1888, the requirement for obtaining a cabinet required more cigarettes to be consumed. The metamorphic trade cards found at point of sale detailed requirements which began at 35 but quickly dropped to 25 empty box covers not containing slips or the slips themselves. The 1888 cabinet checklists likewise mention the 25 slip requirement. I personally have not seen one of these 1888 “slips”. I find it curious that Goodwin refers to a “slip” requirement in 1888 and a “certificate” requirement in 1889. Does anyone have a slip or certificate to share from 1888?

Back to 1889, I believe the three certificates I’ve posted can be placed in proper chronological order based on the dates provided for the BASE BALL ALBUM release. The earliest certificate, which has “May 1889” on the N173 redemption side, states the BASE BALL ALBUM will be released July 1st. The BASE BALL ALBUM features “colored likenesses of last year’s Champions, the New York Giants.” This album, designated A35 in the hobby, is perhaps the most sought after baseball album ever produced with beautiful player lithographs found on the round pages.

The second and third certificate variations are very similar, differing only on the Album redemption side of the certificate. One version provides dates for the yet to be released albums including a revised release date for the BASE BALL ALBUM, now July 15th. It also lists an Aug. 15th, 1889 availability date for the Sports and Games Album. The third certificate variation is minus all the dates suggesting it may have been issued after the albums were made available (post Aug. 15th).

I’ve also attached a scan of yet another certificate which Goodwin refers to as a “ticket” that I believe also dates to 1889, but curiously only promotes the BASE BALL ALBUM. There are likely many more versions than I have posted here.

One thing is clear, Goodwin kept changing the name of what we commonly refer to as a “coupon” today. In 1888 Goodwin refers to a “slip” and then a “certificate” and “ticket” in 1889. The only name Goodwin apparently didn’t use was “coupon”.

Please post your Goodwin issued certificate(s) if you have one/some, regardless of which variation. Maybe we can get an idea of relative scarcity.

[kkkkandp]

Just one Goodwin coupon in my collection...

[Joe_G.]

Thanks for chiming in Kevin. Not expecting a lot of responses since only a couple of us have likely taken an interest in these inserts, but hoping for more.

The albums themselves deserve a little more love. In each and every case the albums celebrated a card set issued by Goodwin & Co. This leads me to believe that there could be many different versions of the slips/certificates/tickets/coupons as they were likely included in all the different packs that distributed each card set. There may be dedicated ticket design for each album (similar to the BASE BALL album ticket I posted). For example, a Flower certificate may have been in the packs that distributed N164s, a Sports and Games certificate in packs that distributed N165s, etc. The certificate variation I posted above provides insight into when each album became available. Here they are, listed in the order found on the certificate:

Champions (A36, based on N162) => 50 certificates in 1889, first issued on or before 1889
Flower (A37, based on N164) => 50 certificates in 1889, first issued on or before 1889
Sports and Games (A38, based on N165) => 75 certificates in 1889, available Aug. 15th 1889
Base Ball (A35 Round Album, features color lithographs of N172 poses) => 75 certificates in 1889, available July 15th, 1889

I find the Champions album, as an 1889 offering, to be interesting since it is based on the 1888 N162 cards with the likeness of all 50 N162 cards found within. There were some player movements between 1888 and 1889, Brouthers from Detroit to Boston and Andrews with a mid-season move from Philly to Indy. Perhaps they had a surplus of the 1888 albums and continued to offer them into 1889 or simply kept printing what they felt was a beautiful album without updates at a lower certificate requirement (50) than the newly issued albums (75). I wonder if N162 production, likewise, continued into 1889?

The Base Ball Album (A35 Round Album) was a popular album back then and today. It is easy to understand why it is far more common than the Sports and Games Album which was based on their generic N165 set. I’ve attached some random pictures of each album (while I own all the certificates I posted, I do not own the albums).

[tedzan]

Hi Joe G

You may be pleased to see the inscribed date on my A36 album. I've always considered this an 1889 issue.

This is Lithography at its best. Furthermore, this Album and my N162 set are my favorites of my extensive
sportscard collection.


Circa 1888-1889

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/a36coupons.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/A36%20cover.jpg



Album pages 1 & 2 of 12
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Champions%203.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Champions%202.jpg




And, Tennis anyone ?

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Champion%208.jpg
TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[tedzan]

Regarding this comment of yours......" I wonder if N162 production, likewise, continued into 1889 ?"

It's very possible that they did extend the N162 press runs into 1889....as is perhaps evident in the TRADEMARK vs. No TRADEMARK
found on the backs of all 50 cards.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/bharrisandsonslithotm.jpg
TED Z
.

[Joe_G.]

Nice cards, album, and certificates Ted Z.! I do now believe N162 distribution spanned two years, 1888-89, but no real proof. Maybe they were distributed in GQ packs while the OJ cards were found in OJ packs (this has been suggested by Je.rry Spillm@n in the past). So perhaps GQ packs had N175 in 1887 and N162 in 1888 & 1889.

At any rate, not many responses here but I did collect some numbers prior to and since posting this thread that I'll share. It is a limited population, but gives some feel for the fact that the four known variations are all somewhat obtainable. I have attached what I'm aware of regarding population of each slip, certificate, and ticket type.

Of interest, the new variation I posted can be found in several collections. The owners didn't notice it being different from the copy in OJ book until this post. Easy for a small variation like this to escape notice even when it is an interesting date that tells us more about the various album's date of issue.

The biggest surprise to me was to see a couple more copies of the album ticket (75 tickets for Base Ball Album ticket). The one I had recently acquired was the first time I had ever seen one and figured it was extremely rare, but Ted Z and another collecting friend have one squirreled away.

I'd love to see a new variation surface, especially one from 1888.

[Joe_G.]

New certificate found (at least new to me), which I believe dates to 1888 and led me to realize another certificate variant that I previously thought was an 1889 issue is likewise an 1888 example. Here is the new Goodwin certificate.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21044

Here are the pair of 1888 certificates followed by the three known 1889 variants.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21041

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21042

And here is a summary of all five certificates with cabinet and album information that can be found on each.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21043

The table above suggests the World's Champions album (based on N162 cards) could be obtained in both 1888 and 1889 (fewer certificates required in 1889).

I do believe there are still more variants to be discovered. I'd love to see an 1888 example with cabinet redemption details.

[Leon]

Congrats on the new pickup of another redemption, Joe. I love those things and they usually don't cost a whole lot to boot. Thanks a lot for sharing info....It is appreciated by all.

[tedzan]

Hi Joe

Great post...... You are the man !

I love this stuff pertaining to the Goodwin Champions.


TED Z
.

[1880nonsports]

for your amusement. All Goodwin coupons/tickets hard to come by - at least compared with Ginter and Duke - the latter with more extensive merchandising, more product, and greater longevity with regard to issuing premiums......

[Joe_G.]

Henry !!

Mic Drop . . .

That is really cool, another new certificate, sharing much of the same information as my newest pick-up. Thank you for sharing, I love it.

[Leon]

+1 Thanks Henry.
It is awesome what comes out in some of our threads from generous collectors.

Henry !!

Mic Drop . . .

That is really cool, another new certificate, sharing much of the same information as my newest pick-up. Thank you for sharing, I love it.

[rhettyeakley]

Joe, just checked my coupon accumulation and have a copy of both 1889 Type 2 Type 3 w/ the orange front and blue backs but one with the dates and without. At least that is what I think you are calling the two I have.

The Goodwin coupons are much tougher than the regular A&G, Duke, and Kinney coupons, now I know of a few more to add to the wantlist!

[Joe_G.]

Joe, just checked my coupon accumulation and have a copy of both 1889 Type 2 Type 3 w/ the orange front and blue backs but one with the dates and without. At least that is what I think you are calling the two I have.

The Goodwin coupons are much tougher than the regular A&G, Duke, and Kinney coupons, now I know of a few more to add to the wantlist!

That would be correct Rhett, the 1889 type 2 & 3 certificates have the same orange N173 redemption details on front but have different album redemption details on the blue back. Type 2 lists the availability date for the "Sports and Games" and "Base Ball" albums while type 3 has no dates (presumably due to being issued after the albums were available).

So we now have 3 known 1888 certificates and 3 known 1889 certificates. Interesting similarities between all the 1888 tickets/certificates including the script "Goodwin & Co." and no mention of cabinet cards (although I believe such certificates were issued in 1888). All the 1889 certificates mention cabinets on one side, albums on the other.

So here we have the updated 1888 tickets/certificates followed by the 1889 certificates and the summary.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21056

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21042

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21057

[Leon]

Thanks for the updated info, Joe. And thanks again to those who chimed in.

[Joe_G.]

Yet another new coupon has surfaced and it is a beauty dating to 1888. The new coupon, below, is the first I've seen that appears to be directed to a specific geographic area. As you can see, the coupon is directed to Goodwin's west coast agents, Mr. Mau, Sadler & Company, complete with a San Francisco address if you wish to order an album. The coupon is very similar to the more generic 1888 coupon, both advertising the two albums available in 1888 with a 75 certificate requirement. This coupon may have been packaged in a Gypsy Queen pack (popular on west coast) with either an N162 or, perhaps, an 1888 California League GQ.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21707

Here are the four 1888 coupons known to me (Floral Album coupon does have an upside down back):

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21704

Here are the three 1889 coupons known to me:

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21705

I'm sure there are more to discover, would still like to find an 1888 example that mentions baseball cabinets.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=21706

[kkkkandp]

Yet another new coupon has surfaced and it is a beauty dating to 1888. The new coupon, below, is the first I've seen that appears to be directed to a specific geographic area. As you can see, the coupon is directed to Goodwin's west coast agents, Mr. Mau, Sadler & Company, complete with a San Francisco address if you wish to order an album. The coupon is very similar to the more generic 1888 coupon, both advertising the two albums available in 1888 with a 75 certificate requirement. This coupon may have been packaged in a Gypsy Queen pack (popular on west coast) with either an N162 or, perhaps, an 1888 California League GQ.

Awesome, Joe! Love seeing unknown Goodwin stuff almost 130 years after the fact! :)

[tedzan]

Cannot let this great thread disappear off the front page....so, it's time for a friendly bump.


TED Z
.

[Joe_G.]

I may be the only one with interest here but thought I'd bump this old thread with a new find. At this point I'm posting inserts outside of the N173 and album redemptions. I recently came across the following insert on eBay and I'm trying to pin down likely date of issue.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=27789

I believe it is early and have tentatively placed it at top of the list in chronological order as follows:

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=27787
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=27788

Here is a closer look at the Old Judge portraits found on the inserts.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=27791

I've chosen to place it as earliest as it is blank backed (like other early inserts) and the Old Judge portrait is perhaps most similar to the earliest portraits I've been able to locate (read on). The portrait found on packs of Old Judge smoking tobacco and cigarette packs didn't change much over time but seems the new insert is most similar to the July 1878 example below. If it were distributed at this early date it would have been in paper packs (before Goodwin migrated to slide & shell boxes in late 1886). I've also looked at export packs but they match what is shown below.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=27790

I believe this was issued shortly after Goodwin & Co. began production of the Old Judge brand (purchased rights to the name in April 1877, patented the rice paper preparation on March 5th 1878). Perhaps this insert was placed in the earliest packs of cigarettes to ease smoker conscious on the dangers of paper wrapped cigarettes ("all tobacco" cigarettes were believed to be safer at this time but paper was cheaper).

Anyone have any thoughts on dating this insert?

[1880nonsports]

you know of course I'm interested in this so that would make at least three people. I saw and likely was bidding at least a place bid I think. I wasn't sure if it was cut from some larger paper something and it wasn't Ginter motivating. I did capture a picture :-)

I just wrote a really long response but deleted it! No clarity and likely not much clarity to follow. I guess I'm still unsure it was an insert.

IF it is an insert I believe it would have followed closely after the "special" process was implemented although I'm unsure any pre 1880 paper packages carried any sort of insert? If a manufacturer wanted to say something then they did it on the package with a seal or sticker type something or accompanied it with trade cards and the like.

The paper image itself was simply done by a different artist than the coupons based on the concept of a judge. The depiction doesn't give much clue as to age when comparing against the box tops or the coupons.

It would be interesting to unearth the original source for the icon if in fact it was a person as in the Ginter brand but I think not. There might have been an initial image used in their first copyright filing which naturally could evolve over time.

I think I ended up where I started. Guess I could have deleted all this :)

[Joe_G.]

Thanks Henry, I took the time to post in the first place hoping to get a response such as yours. I agree that it is unlikely a paper pack would have an insert although this latest advertisement is very thin paper and is somewhat creased throughout (all of which could have easily happened at any point over the last 130+ years).

Other brands like SF Hess Creole underwent several changes in the female portrait on the pack over time and I was trying to study the Old Judge in the same way but led to a dead end.

All good points on your side, we may never be able to solve this one but I'll keep looking for clues.

All the Best!

[Joe_G.]

An update for you and I Henry . . .

I've been able to study two early Old Judge paper packs with tax stamps that date to August 1st, 1884 and March 1st, 1886. They both have a notice on the underside of the flap which reads "EMBOSSED RICE PAPER READ NOTICE INSIDE" which seemingly makes reference to the insert I previously posted. It would now appear that the "rice paper" insert was placed inside the paper packs, likely discontinued with the migration to slide and shell boxes when the "Red Band and Flap" would migrate from a band attached to the wrapper to merely printed on the slide. The "Red Band and Flap" is often advertised in early Goodwin adverts, it is neat how it held the bottom closed, sealed the seam on the side, and doubled as a flap on top.

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=27611

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=28381

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=28380

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=27789

[Joe_G.]

Bumping an old thread to introduce a couple new coupons (variations to existing coupons) courtesy an eBay find by Jon Canfield in April of this year. The find numbered 17 Goodwin coupons spanning 7 different designs/variations from 1888 & 1889, two of which were new to me.

First up we have a new color variation of an already known 1888 coupon advertising the Floral Album and World’s Champions Album. The catalogued variant features a teal front and a purple back with the new coupon printed just the opposite. I personally like the new purple front variant as the purple color has a little more pop than teal on the more ornate front design. The eBay find featured 3 of each type.

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=36265

The other new coupon variation dates to 1889. All catalogued 1889 coupons feature a front side dedicated to N173 cabinets (20 certificates/coupons) and a back side advertising the albums (50 or 75 certificates per album). The new coupon features a new availability date for the “Sports and Games” album (A38 album featuring the N165 cards). The new coupons reads “TO BE READY JUNE 15th – 89” vs later version which states “TO BE READY AUG. 15th – 89”. These dates, in both cases, are actually listed twice on the coupon. The third and final version drops the dates all together.

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=36266

I’ve opted to rearrange the 1889 coupons a bit . . . type 1 & type 2A (new), 2B, and 2C. Jon’s eBay find included the following:

Type 1: qty 2
Type 2A: qty 2 - new discovery
Type 2B: qty 2
Type 2C: qty 4 - recognized as the most common coupon variant

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=36267

In studying the evolving dates it seems likely that many of the coupon variations were rather short lived, most of them lasting perhaps no longer than a month. It also suggests that the “Sports and Games” album was supposed to predate the baseball round album (A35) by a month but would ultimately become available one month after the baseball album.

Here is the composite of the coupons I’m aware of followed by a matrix that further connects the coupons to the redemption items.

https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=36268


https://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=459&pictureid=36269

Many thanks to Jon Canfield for bringing these to our attention !!