Reach and Spalding Pages on ebay

[bn2cardz]

I have noticed in one of my ebay search emails that an abundance of pages have been showing up the last few days. I finally decided to see who was selling them and if I can track it back to the original books.

I have found this seller:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Vintage-Sports-Memorabilia-/50123/m.html?_nkw&_armrs=1&_from&_ipg=25&_ssn=r.cedeno&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&Sport=Baseball&_dcat=50123&rt=nc&_pppn=r1&Year=1905%7C1906%7C1908%7C1909%7C1910%7C1915%7C191 6%7C1917%7C1918%7C1920

Has bought some books recently. Some of them look like the pages are falling out as in this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vintage-1907-Reach-Official-American-League-Baseball-Guide-Cobb-Wagner-Era-/390936163749?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item5b059c75a5&nma=true&si=j6lA9pre1yPajVWzJ%252Bn8BpHbu7w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Another looks like it is still intact, but is missing both the front and back covers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vintage-1909-Spaldings-Official-Baseball-Guide-Cobb-Wagner-Era-/390936181351?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item5b059cba67

But this one seems to have the cover and is intact. Granted the front cover is ripped, but that is the only "structural" flaw that I notice in the photos:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vintage-1914-Spaldings-Official-Baseball-Guide-Cobb-Wagner-Era-/390936209837?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item5b059d29ad

Often I see the people that cut these up say that it is better to cut them up then allow them to fall apart. I can see book number one being split up because the pages are falling out anyways, but by book three it seems like the book could have been kept together for some great amount of time. So at what point is the damage enough to say it is beyond keeping it as a historical book and instead split them up into "collectible pictures"?

[ethicsprof]

I hate to see the books used for any purpose other than for being read as a book. I've bought up quite a few of the spalding and reach in recent months to
help save these jewels of baseball of history and for my own personal research needs.

all the best,
barry

[Runscott]

The argument by sellers, any time you see these pages being sold here or on ebay, is that they are only ripping up otherwise worthless books. This may be true for some, but it's also a lie coming from others.

One thing I can tell you with certainty: if you buy a cut out page, regardless of the condition of the book it came from, it encourages sellers to do it to good books.

[glynparson]

however if people keep buying them and the sellers properly identify them I feel they should be allowed to do it. I do not see it as an activity that should be considered illegal. I am not sure if properly disclosed i would even consider it unethical. I would prefer they stay intact but if there is demand for properly identified pages being sold then who am I to stop someone from buying it.

[Runscott]

Glyn, it is certainly not illegal, and it certainly can't be stopped - if you want to personally support the activity, then either buy cut out pages, or, as you have done here, defend others who are doing it.

[Econteachert205]

This type of stuff has gone on with Gustav Dore book engravings etc. forever in the book world. Would never buy one myself.

[bnorth]

I do not collect them but I am on the side of if you own the magazine you can do what ever you want with it. As long as they are listed properly I have no problem with people cutting up any magazine/book they own and selling the pages.

I have this opinion because a much older friend owned a small used book store. He barely made enough money to keep it open most years and sometimes had to take a night part time job delivering pizza. The last 4-5 years he was open he found a wholesaler who bought magazine pages and it really helped his business stay open without having to have a second job to support the job he loved.

[glynparson]

but that seems to go over some peoples heads. I just do not see where it is our place to act so high and mighty and tell others what to spend there money on. If it does not hurt anyone I do not see the point of bringing this up every month. I have never bought a page and probably never will, but I have cut up bazooka panels and strip card sheets and panels in my life. Some see that as horrible, I was doing it at the time because the items sold for more that way and cards were my job. Again to make it clear I do not support this but at the same time feel it is not my place to judge someone else on their collecting habits. As I have stated if the item is clearly stated and their is demand for the items why is it so wrong. If you people that have such a tremendous problem with it then buy all the guides, as Barry has suggested and is doing, as opposed to being a whiny little b!^#@ like Scott.

[glynparson]

Trying to figure out why some judge it so much differently than Harper or other woodcuts, of which I do have a few single pages . I am much more bothered by individuals like the guy with the fake $200 wagner or people that try to pass off the spalding pages as cards.

[Tao_Moko]

This type of stuff has gone on with Gustav Dore book engravings etc. forever in the book world. Would never buy one myself.

I had this discussion with a friend very recently. I choose Dore over Blake when it comes to The Divine Comedy and apparently so do others because I have yet to find a version missing Blake's drawings, but often find them missing Dore engravings. As for the topic of this thread - I'm not for destroying books in any condition. Kind of like chopping up a Cobb bat or Gehrig jersey for a card(relics?).

[glynparson]

with very few known has extreme historical significance a book with untold amounts of copies still floating around is not. If it were the value would be too large to take this risks of buying and cutting them up. Look at it as maybe a good investment if you truly feel so many are being cut up that it will effect the supply greatly buy some intact books and forget about them for a while.

[Tao_Moko]

with very few known has extreme historical significance a book with untold amounts of copies still floating around is not. If it were the value would be too large to take this risks of buying and cutting them up. Look at it as maybe a good investment if you truly feel so many are being cut up that it will effect the supply greatly by some intact books and forget about them for a while.

I agree with you about the comparison not being equal when it comes to rarity, but when cut up can no longer be enjoyed in it's original form. In the case of Dante/Dore would be sad to lose the value of the story that goes with the image just like a sliver of a bat loses the weight of it's design and purpose. I understand that just because I don't favor it doesn't mean that it shouldn't continue to happen for the sake of profit. It's an interesting topic to chime in on and I'm curious to read more opinions from our members. Or, do you want to put it to bed and start another Titus thread?

[Runscott]

but that seems to go over some peoples heads. I just do not see where it is our place to act so high and mighty and tell others what to spend there money on. If it does not hurt anyone I do not see the point of bringing this up every month. I have never bought a page and probably never will, but I have cut up bazooka panels and strip card sheets and panels in my life. Some see that as horrible, I was doing it at the time because the items sold for more that way and cards were my job. Again to make it clear I do not support this but at the same time feel it is not my place to judge someone else on their collecting habits. As I have stated if the item is clearly stated and their is demand for the items why is it so wrong. If you people that have such a tremendous problem with it then buy all the guides, as Barry has suggested and is doing, as opposed to being a whiny little b!^#@ like Scott.

You sure are dramatic. I guess if I was getting my ass handed to me, I would start calling names as well. It's certainly in keeping with your character.

[glynparson]

go have a few more drinks. Loser. Trying to figure out where your ignorant ass handed it to me. I laugh at your pompousness. I have basically stated i am not for it but you do not seem to have very good reading comprehension. I have stated multiple times i will not tell people how to spend their money and i find it extremelly arrogant that you think it is your place to tell people how to spend their money. If they lie about what they are selling I am with you but when labeled properly why is it so wrong? You never answer anything just call names and attack. Put down the bottle and I think you will see you are fighting with someone that mostly agrees with you that they should not be cut up. But should not and can't are two different things. If demand is there why should an industrious individual not meet that demand. It is better than us having to support him on public assistance is it not?

[bn2cardz]

I have stated before people can do whatever they like. Just like people use beater t206 cards to test altering card theories.
Or people cut down sheets. I just personally can't do it. I also don't understand anyone buying a single page from a book.

There is a thread about Jeter collectors being crazy. I think "pages from books" collectors to be crazy. To me it is just as crazy as cutting out just the Nolan Ryan picture from a 1968 Topps. I understand you aren't a Jerry Koosman collector but you just cut the card in half.

Think about it like this. Who would want a uncut strip of t206 cards. How about a uncut strip with Wagner and Plank on it? There was one, but because someone decided to cut it up to sell the cards individually it no longer exsists. Sometimes the long term goal of preserving history should be the goal instead of the short term minimal monetary return.

[glynparson]

And books with countless copies are apples and oranges. I will not cut up the books or buy the pages does not mean I will tell others how to spend their money or judge them for it as long as they are not hurting anyone in the process

[barrysloate]

It's neither illegal or unethical to cut the pages out of books, but it's tacky and collectors frown upon it. It's our job as collectors to preserve artifacts, not destroy them. Of course anyone is free to cut up the books, but to me that isn't the point.

[glynparson]

I think you stated much more eloquently what I was trying to say. I am not for it but I am not going to chastise the buyers either. I do not enjoy telling people what they have when they show me one of those pages in those crappy slabs. But to me those were being presented often as cards not what they really are. I get the outrage when not disclosed I just refuse to have it when the item is clearly identified. Though I do find it as Barry said Tacky.

[barrysloate]

Anytime.:)

[tschock]

A ) Ain't nobody's business if someone chops up a book that they own.
B ) I wouldn't do that myself (for the most part*).
C ) If someone asked me if they should do it, I would be agin' it (for the most part*).

*Depends on how bad shape the book is in to start with. Just missing a few pages or already half gone and rat nibbled? Two different situations.

For those who are interested in these complete as reference material, why don't you scan the ones you have and make the scanned versions available? Or if you don't have them and want the reference material, why not try something like this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baseball-Library-Spalding-Guides-71-Books-on-DVD-/250841877459) or that (http://www.ebay.in/itm/Spalding-Official-Baseball-20-Vintage-Guides-on-DVD-/260585548378)?

[Eric72]

It's neither illegal or unethical to cut the pages out of books, but it's tacky and collectors frown upon it. It's our job as collectors to preserve artifacts, not destroy them. Of course anyone is free to cut up the books, but to me that isn't the point.

Barry,

I completely agree with you.

And quite well said, as usual.

Best regards,

Eric

[bwbc917]

A little different perspective. I am trying to amass a picture/card etc of every Cleveland Indian/Nap etc. To that end, minor league team photos are a must. I can buy every Reach and Spalding guide there is and be out a huge sum of money( as I have on the 75 in my collection) or I can purchase a cutout from one of the Guides.
I have turned to buying cutouts. Instead of $50 or more on a book , I might spend 6-8 bucks for the ones I need out of it. BY the way: any one have a 1926 Crisfield in the Eastern Shore league? I'm looking for Jackie Gallagher.

[Runscott]

go have a few more drinks. Loser. Trying to figure out where your ignorant ass handed it to me.
....
You never answer anything just call names and attack.

The mirror Glynn, the mirror.

[Runscott]

I think you stated much more eloquently what I was trying to say. I am not for it but I am not going to chastise the buyers either. I do not enjoy telling people what they have when they show me one of those pages in those crappy slabs. But to me those were being presented often as cards not what they really are. I get the outrage when not disclosed I just refuse to have it when the item is clearly identified. Though I do find it as Barry said Tacky.

Good try, and I can't think of a better ass to kiss in this discussion, but no - what Barry said and what you said had almost nothing in common. But your viewpoint is evolving and your tap-dancing is also getting better.

[glynparson]

The liquor you so love has clearly affected your brain. I stated every freaking time I am not for them but will not judge a person that so chooses to buy them. This also means as I stated it is not illegal I even said I was not sure it was not unethical. Which I decided it was not. I also stated I would not do it. You need to quit your beloved spirits because they have made you downright stupid. You are just an old bitter angry drunken loser. If this is so important instead of all the money you spend on booze spend some for these guides. And for your information Scott i could not even guess the last time I had a drink so again you are wrong. Ps drunkie why not attack Chris an admitted consumer of them? Maybe because his reasoning is sound? Let people collect what makes them happy don't be an angry old bitter drunkard. Maybe this analogy will make sense cutting up the magazines like being a drunk are two things I think are wrong. that does not mean I do not think an adult of legal age should not have the right to be a lush. even though I do not like alcohol personally I will defend the rights of the lush and of the manufacturer of the spirits, just as I did the collector and the dealer that correctly identifies them when selling.

[EvilKing00]

Lol hey Andy, look what you started...

In all seriousness though. I like my t205's, i like my babe ruth cards, i would like to begin collecting t3 and i also like reach and spalding guides. I have bought a few, one was comlpeat and in good shape, still have it in tact, 2 were missing pages and in 2 pieces. I have some pages in large top loaders that i love, strange saying that, but having a 1914 ruth on his minor league team i think is as close as ill ever get to his rookie card. Sad but true. I have even sold a few pages i had doubles of. I wouldnt cut up a perfectly good book though, and wouldnt recomend anyone doing so.

I also like having a few drinks on a friday but im not sure what that has to do with this conversation lmao

[Runscott]

The liquor you so love has clearly affected your brain. I stated every freaking time I am not for them but will not judge a person that so chooses to buy them. This also means as I stated it is not illegal I even said I was not sure it was not unethical. Which I decided it was not. I also stated I would not do it. You need to quit your beloved spirits because they have made you downright stupid. You are just an old bitter angry drunken loser. If this is so important instead of all the money you spend on booze spend some for these guides. And for your information Scott i could not even guess the last time I had a drink so again you are wrong. Ps drunkie why not attack Chris an admitted consumer of them? Maybe because his reasoning is sound? Let people collect what makes them happy don't be an angry old bitter drunkard. Maybe this analogy will make sense cutting up the magazines like being a drunk are two things I think are wrong. that does not mean I do not think an adult of legal age should not have the right to be a lush. even though I do not like alcohol personally I will defend the rights of the lush and of the manufacturer of the spirits, just as I did the collector and the dealer that correctly identifies them when selling.

That's all very amusing.

I'm guessing that your fixation on alcohol and drunkenness has something to do with either yourself, or perhaps someone in your family? That would also explain all the name-calling. I don't know you and don't take any of your rants seriously, so if it takes away some of the pain, knock yourself out.

[Kenny Cole]

Glad I had a couple of cocktails before I read this thread. Drunk or sober I am vehemently opposed to cutting up the old guides. I understand that those who own them can do what they want, which is almost always true with regard to whatever someone owns. I suppose that if those who own a great work of art decide to cut it up or spray paint it, they have that right too. That certainly doesn't justify doing it.

When someone destroys something with societal or historical value, it seems to me that the equation should change. IMO, when things like that occur, we are all lessened as a society. In that regard, I am, to say the least, troubled by the fact that some people who purportedly "agree" with the sentiment that it should not occur basically then say that they don't give a shit when it actually happens because the owner can do what they want with it. That is both disingenuous and inconsistent.

It nauseates every time I see a cut out advertised. I will never buy one and if I know that you cut up a guide, I probably won't buy anything else from you, ever, because I think you suck. Others may feel differently, and they certainly have the right to do so. But that's my take.

[ooo-ribay]

Even worse, IMO, are the modern cards incorporating bits of game used bats or unis. :mad:

[Tao_Moko]

This thread got a little weird. I hadn't had anything to drink until I sat down to work tonight and check on how this thread was going. Ended up pouring myself a couple fingers of rye.

[glynparson]

Not willing to be a moral compass is not the same as endorsing an activity. I also believe hard drugs, prostitution, gambling, and gay sex should all be legal and I am not really going to run out an engage in any of those activities. That does not mean I would not vehemently defend a consenting adult from engaging in any of those activities. Not denying someone else the right to do something does not equal endorsing said activity.

[Tao_Moko]

Not willing to be a moral compass is not the same as endorsing an activity. I also believe hard drugs, prostitution, gambling, and gay sex should all be legal and I am not really going to run out an engage in any of those activities. That does not mean I would not vehemently defend a consenting adult from engaging in any of those activities. Not denying someone else the right to do something does not equal endorsing said activity.

All of those things are legal if you're in the right place and have a prescription. You could do them all legally in Nevada - Nevada decriminalized sodomy in 1993, has Native American ran Casino's, the Bunny Ranch and I'm sure plenty of doctors that would prescribe oxy at the drop of a hat.

[bn2cardz]

Not willing to be a moral compass is not the same as endorsing an activity. I also believe hard drugs, prostitution, gambling, and gay sex should all be legal and I am not really going to run out an engage in any of those activities. That does not mean I would not vehemently defend a consenting adult from engaging in any of those activities. Not denying someone else the right to do something does not equal endorsing said activity.

WHAT?!?! No one said cutting the books should be illegal. Even Barry the person you so adamantly agreed with said "Of course anyone is free to cut up the books, but to me that isn't the point." This thread isn't about whether the act should be illegal, it is purely about whether it should be done. Or in what instances would you agree with it.

[bbcard1]

Chandy Greenholt, who is as ethical and passionate guy as you will ever meet, got literally a milk crate full of these that he was selling for $1 a page. I bought a few including a Ruth ad that I might frame up nicely one day, but they were "broken when he got them."

[glynparson]

I would not do it but I think it is sanctimonious to come on hear and rip people to shreads for what they may enjoy collecting. I find it arrogant to tell others how to spend their money. I understand the outrage I just don't agree with it. If the cutting up of the books bothered me as much as you guys I would put my money where my mouth is and start buying up complete books to save for posterity. Rather than come on the message boards and whine about it every month. Like I said I am not the morality police if it is not hurting others and is properly labeled sell them. I do not see where it is any of our business what someone wishes to buy or do. I don't see the difficulty in comprehending that position and frankly find it funny that all of us who have spent fortunes on cardboard look down on others for what they choose to purchase.

[glynparson]

Ripping those that sell them as cards, that is misrepresenting what they are. I just think counterfeiters and card doctors deserve our attention and scorn more than a guy cutting up a book.

[tschock]

Chandy Greenholt, who is as ethical and passionate guy as you will ever meet, got literally a milk crate full of these that he was selling for $1 a page. I bought a few including a Ruth ad that I might frame up nicely one day, but they were "broken when he got them."

Agree on Chandy. Great guy!

According to some though, his only option would have been to destroy them. Since selling them might encourage others to do so. So rather than allowing others the opportunity of having a single page with a player they like, his option is to not provide them to anyone? Talk about being inconsistent.

[doug.goodman]

I don't like it, but I collect Police Gazette, Harpers and Leslies pages, so what do I know?

Doug

[irishdenny]

Honestly... Is this True?
That by Collecting Police Gazette's of Christy Mathewson...
Some People believe that I am Encouraging Other's to Cut uP Magazine's?

Can this really be true?

I am Not at All trying to be antagonistic... My point is, Could this be an era related mentality? I didn't think fir a moment that the Collecting of the Gazette's would cause me to think anything other than, "I'm Glad that these were preserved by those who came before me!

As a Collector, iT iS My duty to do everything I can to preserve these Artifacts.
I wonder now if there were those who took issue with the dismantling of an Old Police Gazette's?

Oh, and Not that I don't care... it's just that the world is so full of Politics'. The reason why I come here is leave that All behind. iN the Past year I have been intrigued by the Magazine ad's of Baseball's past! ie Tuxedo, Tabaco, etc... I've been looking to purchase some of the Magazine's. Never gave it a thought that I would pull the ads out. I picked up a couple and have been reading them for the Nostalgia...

"Now I have to worry about the Political Magazine Police" :D

Just ta Note: The only Mathewson Police Gazette that I presently own iS one iN which there is No writing oN the Top of the Page, which means that it was issued at the end of the year by the Company within a set.
Not takiN' from the Magazine!

No Worries...

[Jeffrompa]

We have talked about this before . All I keep thinking is I can sell you my car which you can cherish as a whole or I can sell you the parts that will cost you more .

[tschock]

We have talked about this before . All I keep thinking is I can sell you my car which you can cherish as a whole or I can sell you the parts that will cost you more .

.... unless I only care about or need a few parts. Then it's MUCH cheaper buying the parts. ;)