Moisture: the safe deposit box's worst enemy.

[the 'stache]

In the next three months, I'm going to be adding some pretty valuable cards to my collection. And those will be going into my safe deposit box. These cards are a mixture of graded-SGC, Beckett and PSA, as well as unslabbed. These I keep in Card Savers.

My question comes after reading Ian's (itjclarke) horror story where he found liquid inside his safe deposit box (http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=193357), apparently from a desiccant pack gone wrong.

I'll have to double check the size, but my safe deposit box (I think) is 6" x 10" x 19". That provides me plenty of room.

I should be able to put my cards inside of something like a Tupperware container. There are also other storage bins like Tupperware with air tight gaskets. When I was a workout nut before hurting my back, I would put my raw spinach and my vegetables in them, and it was amazing how much longer the produce stayed fresh.

Have any of you guys used these kinds of containers in your safe deposit box? I know I could use the gel packs that absorb moisture, but if I have air tight containers, shouldn't that completely block the moisture from getting in?

My bank is only a couple of miles from my house, so it's no hassle to drive back and forth every couple of months to switch out desiccant packs, if that's the best option to protect cards from moisture. But if something were to happen where I couldn't get around for a few months, like if I fell again, I might not be able to make it back for a while. I trust my family, but I'd feel better if I were the only one handling rare and valuable cards.

I live outside of Dallas, Texas. While it's not like living in New Orleans, it's not the desert, either. It can get humid, at times, and I don't want to take any chances.

Thank you! I look forward to everybody's input.

[Stonepony]

Bill, that desiccant story intrigued me too. Who knows what that was, but it surely wasn't good ole silica beads with a 1600C melting point. I think you're worrying over nothing. Temp, light and humidity slowly degrades paper . A Bank SD box will cover all those environmental factors. Save the Tupperware for left overs. Unless you're storing a Dead Sea Scroll, a safety deposit box +/- a few silica dessicant packs will do fine

[Runscott]

There were traces of rust in my old bank's safe deposit box, so I always put an archival bag on the bottom of the box. Then I don't think about it.

[itjclarke]

Hey Bill,

Luckily I only had a few of those little dessicant paper pouches (as found often in product packaging or boxes being shipped, similar size to salt/pepper packets), as well as a little tin of loose desiccant beeds in my safe deposit box, and not the stuff that liquified. The stuff that dissolved was in my separate storage unit, though would have absolutely wreaked havoc had they been in my safe deposit box (was almost sure I'd left some in there until I checked:eek:).

The moisture those things created is really crazy and still a mystery to me. All my little cardboard baseball boxes that got soaked are STILL nearly as wet 4 weeks later, as is a 8.5" x 11" paper JSA LOA. At one point a few days later, when I realized they weren't drying on their own, I put them all in the oven. After a few hours at 220 F, they appeared dry/crispy to the touch (even darkened like burnt toast), only to regain almost all the moisture once they cooled. A really foul smell also permeated the house after doing this, so I stopped after two tries.

I'm still at a total loss:confused:. My wife is still insistent these were desiccants, and said she'd recognize them if she saw them. I believe her, at least that they were sold as such, but unfortunately she didn't keep the original packaging and threw the rest of them away before I could get a picture to post here. It had been suggested they were something else (bath beads, etc) on the board, but as is, I know my wife was shopping specifically for desiccants when she got these, and doubt she'd have mixed those with bath beads... Also, why/how would bath beads, or anything for that matter disolve after only a couple months and with no direct contact to water, and then saok things with what's basically proven to be an irreversible moisture?? IMO, it defies all reason that all this paper is still wet!!!!

Anyway, sorry, didn't mean to get side tracked. There is definitely moisture in my bank's vault, though no one at my bank has acknowledged it. You can feel the stuffiness/humidity in there, and this moisture seemed to cause a few items to stick to their plastic sleeves, ruining a few... most notably my 2010 WS ticket stub which really bummed me out, and which prompted me to add desiccants. I am admittedly a little gun shy now, but am probably gonna keep using the little paper pouches, and maybe put one of those tins back in. I don't think it needs much for such a small area though, just probably need to change them every so often.

I hope my story doesn't make you paranoid, I'm sure you'll be fine doing whatever you choose.

BELOW ADDED is a pic of my LOA. It's hard to see, but the slightly darker areas at the folds is moisture that's lasted 4 weeks and two 2-3 hour trips into my oven. The blackened/burned portion at bottom is result of being in the oven, yet the moisture is still bound to the paper.
162475

[Texxxx]

If your worried about using the desiccated pouches then put some rice in there. It will serve the same purpose.

[ALR-bishop]

I have a big safety deposit box, 2 feet x 3 feet by 3 feet. There is nary a card in it

[CW]

I cannot vouch for their effectiveness over the long haul, and use at your own risk, but I have always used ziploc storage baggies to hold stacks of slabs within my safety deposit box. I typically double bag stacks of 20 with the larger ziploc bags (I don't use the ones with the little slide lever, but rather the bags you have to pinch across the seam to lock completely. Some bags even have a double seal).

Cardboard is fairly resilient over time to the elements, but why chance it?

[KCRfan1]

What about a block of Cedar ( think shoe trees ) ? This is the first thing that comes to my mind.

[conor912]

I am wary of sealing cardboard inside an airtight anything. Paper needs to breath, period. If you put them in Tupperware and inadvertently seal even the slightest bit of moisture in there with them.....disaster.

[clydepepper]

I have two Sentry fire-proof safes and one Dakota Wood raw card box.

I do have an extra Sentry safe available - it is fairly heavy and was not built with a carry handle.

If anyone is interested - I can get check and provide the measurements and a scan. - maybe we can work a deal for it.

[itjclarke]

If your worried about using the desiccated pouches then put some rice in there. It will serve the same purpose.

Over time, couldn't rice potentially get truly moist (to the touch, free water), and be susceptible to mold, feed little buggies/microbials, etc?

[the 'stache]

Ok, Scott, you're talking to a novice. What may I ask is an archival bag? I will look online, and I'm sure I'll find out some basic information. But maybe you can give me some better information. Thanks!

There were traces of rust in my old bank's safe deposit box, so I always put an archival bag on the bottom of the box. Then I don't think about it.

[Texxxx]

What ever you do. I would go to the bank at least once a month and check on them.

[Runscott]

Ok, Scott, you're talking to a novice. What may I ask is an archival bag? I will look online, and I'm sure I'll find out some basic information. But maybe you can give me some better information. Thanks!

Just because it is acid-free - I stack slabbed/sleeved cards and autographs on top of it, as opposed to laying them straight on the metal.

[MattyC]

My bank's safety deposit box vault is climate controlled. I also visit the cards once a month or so. Never a problem over many years now.

[glchen]

There is definitely moisture in my bank's vault, though no one at my bank has acknowledged it. You can feel the stuffiness/humidity in there, and this moisture seemed to cause a few items to stick to their plastic sleeves, ruining a few...

Hi Ian, I didn't remark upon this in your original thread, but you live in San Francisco, I believe, and I live near you in the Oakland/Alameda area. Is there really that much humidity here? The Bay Area practically has the same temperature all year round, and even during the wet winter months, I don't think the humidity is all that bad. If it's more inland, I could understand. I don't bother with desiccants for my card collection. However, I do have a growing stamp collection, where I am thinking of desiccants as I think the gum on the stamps may be much more sensitive than cardboard stock. However, as long as I keep my cards in a living area or at the bank safety deposit box, I'm not too worried. (I do admit my garage does become hot and humid sometimes as there is not much air circulation there.)

[itjclarke]

Hi Ian, I didn't remark upon this in your original thread, but you live in San Francisco, I believe, and I live near you in the Oakland/Alameda area. Is there really that much humidity here? The Bay Area practically has the same temperature all year round, and even during the wet winter months, I don't think the humidity is all that bad. If it's more inland, I could understand. I don't bother with desiccants for my card collection. However, I do have a growing stamp collection, where I am thinking of desiccants as I think the gum on the stamps may be much more sensitive than cardboard stock. However, as long as I keep my cards in a living area or at the bank safety deposit box, I'm not too worried. (I do admit my garage does become hot and humid sometimes as there is not much air circulation there.)

Hey Gary, agree there is definitely not the hot Houston style humidity here (went running in Houston 3 weeks back, sheesh), but plenty of cool air humidity... and extreme micro climates (SF and Oakland can be different worlds) as I'm sure you know. I lived for years in what had been a brand new apartment building in South of Market (near AT&T Park), where it's generally sunnier than the west side of the city. That place always felt dry, and while living there I'd honestly never even heard of desiccants, let alone considered using them. I'm now over in Cole Valley, bordering the Sunset where we get a lot more fog. Our building is also much older and poorly insulated compared to my old one. The stuff in my closets, and especially my 1st floor building storage gets and stays pretty moist, even when sunny out. I started to use those carboard box/pouch desiccants here for my closet and within a few days that little strip starts to go from blue to pink. I have had a few autographed balls go south on me since living here, so I moved them all to a separate storage unit over in Protrero/Dog Patch.

That said, I think whatever's going on in my bank's vault (which is central in a large building) has very little to do with the local outdoor climate and probably more to do with whatever is going on in the bank itself. For one, there's a Starbucks in the lobby, with lots of steamy lattes and mochas being made all day. The vault entrance also looks to be surrounded by the bathrooms. Not sure if either of these things contribute, but would think any sort of open water source and/or condensation within the building could create some humidity.. heck, even a coffee maker in a room with no windows or ventilation will probably make it pretty humid. That WS ticket stub was fine in its sleeve for about 2 years in my apartment, but within a 6 mths- 1year of depositing it in my bank, it's front had completely stuck onto the plastic case. It tore off completely when I tried to remove it. I definitely don't have an inner guage for relative humidity, but know when I feel it.. and it feels a little stuffy in that vault as compared with the rest of the bank.

Anyway, my original reason for posting that thread was to see if anyone else had experienced anything like me with desiccant (or whatever they were) beads, and know I'm definitely not complaining about my bank or safe deposit boxes in general. I like my bank, have had my cards there for years, and don't really want to go through the process of finding a new medium/large size box. Wait lists are apparently long, and I'm pretty sure I'm grandfathered into a nice rate. Another minor consideration being in SF, was elevation and good bedrock, which is good come earthquake/tsunami time... and my bank's definitely got that. All in all, I feel much safer keeping my most valuable cards in a box there, and the issue has not seemed to affect much else.

I will say this though, and think my experience backs it- it seems to me moisture can be present anywhere (bank vault, storage unit, etc), regardless of where you live or the weather. Again just think coffee maker with no windows, or a leaky pipe, or whatever. If it makes you feel a little more secure using some desiccant packets (it does me), then you should do it. If not, I'm sure it'll be fine most of the time too.

Bill--- again, hope this doesn't make you paranoid, your box will be fine... and I highly doubt you'll have bags of beads liquify on you!! Seems I'm the only lucky one there.:p

[Tao_Moko]

Stache - FireKing is one of the many items that I rep commercially and I live in a very humid and salty environment. The Dry-Packs should be more than sufficient and it is a good idea to create a barrier between your cards and the box bottom. I would not recommend bags or tupperware.

[Jobu]

A safe way to use the silica gel beads is to buy a plastic tupperware container, poke a lot of holes in the lid, and put the silica beads in there with the lid closed. It will still be open to the air but ought to contain all of the gel in case of what seems like a fairly rare meltdown.

According to Wikipedia (proceed with some caution), there appear to be a few things that react with silica gel: "Silica gel is non-toxic, non-flammable, and non-reactive and stable with ordinary usage. It will react with hydrogen fluoride, fluorine, oxygen difluoride, chlorine trifluoride, strong acids, strong bases, and oxidizers."

My guess is that the inital meltdown was due to one non-silica product accidentally being mixed with the silica, causing the problem. For those that use dessicants I would recommend using only a single product rather than mixing multiple products. Also, as I think I mentioned in my post in the original thread, the dessicants that look a lot like cat litter are primarliy composed of non-dessicant material - you can get dessicants that are pure silica gel and therefore pack a lot more wallop per unit volume.

So, after all that babble, my suggestion to Bill is not to put your collection in containers but to put the gel in one instead. That way the cards are more open to the air. When working in the tropics, at the end of the day I always put my gear in an airtight bag with a container of gel and it always worked great (given the conditions I just used a sock but never had any issues - I would not recommend that for cards).

For a follow up question and a bit of a piggyback, does anyone know how water proof PSA, SGC, etc slabs tend to be? Are they even open to the air? If they are fully sealed that would influence concenrs about humidity and exposure to the air.

[ALR-bishop]

In 1993 I lived in St Louis and they had a lot of flooding that year. I had an uncle die that lived in a suburb called Lemay . I was his executor, but his bank with his estate papers was flooded. It was almost 3 weeks until the waters receded enough for them to reopen the bank, and since the safety deposit room was partially under water there were delays in getting access and box holders had to make individual appointment to get into the vault room and check their stuff. You could see the water line that went half way up the rows of boxes. I had no idea where his box was located, but fortunately it was up high near the ceiling, well above the water line. I saw others going through boxes that had been under water for 3 weeks and all the paper documents were completely destroyed.

Since then I have always made sure my boxes have been up high in case of flooding , sprinkler issues, fire ( water to put it out).

But since I have collected each and every Topps set and have them in binders for easy access and display, I have never used my safety deposit boxes for cards. I do keep all my documentation of the cost basis of my cards in the box, and carry insurance on it all.

[glchen]

Thanks, Ian, I got it. That definitely makes sense.

[itjclarke]

A safe way to use the silica gel beads is to buy a plastic tupperware container, poke a lot of holes in the lid, and put the silica beads in there with the lid closed. It will still be open to the air but ought to contain all of the gel in case of what seems like a fairly rare meltdown.

According to Wikipedia (proceed with some caution), there appear to be a few things that react with silica gel: "Silica gel is non-toxic, non-flammable, and non-reactive and stable with ordinary usage. It will react with hydrogen fluoride, fluorine, oxygen difluoride, chlorine trifluoride, strong acids, strong bases, and oxidizers."

My guess is that the inital meltdown was due to one non-silica product accidentally being mixed with the silica, causing the problem.

Interesting, thanks for posting Jobu (and awesome username!). My wife had kept this stuff in a ziplock under our kitchen sink where there's plenty of weird stuff, including strong bases and/or acids in all of our cleaning stuff. It's also pretty moist down there, so suspect some things may possibly ooze or precipitate into others.

[the 'stache]

Just bumping this, now that spring is here, and summer is drawing near. Are any of you guys trying something different with your safe deposit boxes? Just curious if anybody has had any more horror stories, or great ideas. Since I place both modern and vintage/pre-war in there, I'm always looking for information.

I'm going with the little Tupperware container poked with several holes, and some silica packs inside. Cards are placed on top of an archival sheet. I am ordering some new ones from Bags Unlimited.

Thanks!

[JollyRoger]

We get some fairly high humidity in my part of the country, but I've never had any issues with moisture in my safe deposit box. Sometimes I'll go 3-4 years without checking on my cards, and they've always been fine. We soak and dry our cards, so I don't see where a little moisture would have a devastating effect on them. I've seen dessicant packets turn into a mess before, so I wouldn't trust them. I've heard a piece of chalk can absorb moisture, never tried that. The way I see it, my cards have survived 100+ years on their own, why change things now!

[rjackson44]

Ive never used anything in twenty years bill,,never a problem ..

[the 'stache]

Octavio, I don't think I'd have a problem without something. The bank is climate controlled. I just know how humid it is down here, and especially as of late, we've had terrible storms in the Dallas metroplex, and a lot of power outages. I'd hate to get a burst of humidity with an outage. I know it's a low chance, but it's worth spending $10 to protect a collection worth thousands of bucks.



Do any of you guys use these (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037Z8K3E/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=34JUJ24E0CV2G&coliid=I1XS1BGARMXGON)? I figure that this is a completely contained unit, so no need for a Tupperware container, and no batteries. They seem to get some good ratings, too.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Having worked in banks for 25+ years, I can tell you that vaults do not have any air control system inside so the summers during overnight hours can get pretty hot inside and the winters are the opposite, depending on the climate where you live.

[frankbmd]

Bill,

Protecting your collection from a thermonuclear weapon or an electromagnetic pulse might require additional measures.

[4815162342]

Bill,

Protecting your collection from a thermonuclear weapon or an electromagnetic pulse might require additional measures.

What if Bill could construct a Faraday cage out of cockroaches?

[Jobu]

I have had the blue-to-pink version of silica gel in this case along with me during field work in tropical forests (also just the raw silica as I think I mentioned) but never had one of these in with cards. The cases are pretty tough and I think this would probably work well for you.



Do any of you guys use these (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037Z8K3E/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=34JUJ24E0CV2G&coliid=I1XS1BGARMXGON)? I figure that this is a completely contained unit, so no need for a Tupperware container, and no batteries. They seem to get some good ratings, too.

[itjclarke]

Octavio, I don't think I'd have a problem without something. The bank is climate controlled. I just know how humid it is down here, and especially as of late, we've had terrible storms in the Dallas metroplex, and a lot of power outages. I'd hate to get a burst of humidity with an outage. I know it's a low chance, but it's worth spending $10 to protect a collection worth thousands of bucks.



Do any of you guys use these (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037Z8K3E/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=34JUJ24E0CV2G&coliid=I1XS1BGARMXGON)? I figure that this is a completely contained unit, so no need for a Tupperware container, and no batteries. They seem to get some good ratings, too.

Hey Bill, I'd used a couple of those in my box and storage, but decided to take everything out after my desiccant meltdown in my off site storage unit. These did seem to work well though, and I may start using them again if it looks like moisture is creating an issue. I still use the larger boxed (beads in a pouch) desiccants for my storage unit at home.

[Paul S]

In 1974, just before I was moving from L.A. to S.F., I stuck all my cards in a Gallo Hearty Burgundy box (still have it!:eek:), wrote my name on it, stored in a mini-basement, and told my Mom not to touch it. There it sat on a shelf next to the furnace and water heater, until about 9-10 years ago when went to retrieve it -- condition-wise, they looked the same. Survived two earthquakes and a mudslide. Worked for me:)

[conor912]

Having worked in banks for 25+ years, I can tell you that vaults do not have any air control system inside so the summers during overnight hours can get pretty hot inside and the winters are the opposite, depending on the climate where you live.

Sounds like attic/basement/garage conditions to me.

[e107collector]

I've used one of these for many years. Just plug it in to reactivate every month or so. I love it!

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Liberty-Safe-Mini-Dehumidifier/1550141.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Ddehumidifier%26x%3D10%26y%3D6%26WTz_l%3 DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=dehumidifier

Tony

[TanksAndSpartans]

I use this to monitor the situation: http://www.lowes.com/pd_396632-53921-00309_0__?productId=3830957

I found this recommendation:

http://www.archives.gov/preservation/family-archives/preserving-family-papers.html

But Googling turns up several variants - I'd be concerned about a RH below 30 or above 60.

Given I keep the cards in an air conditioned house, I don't find the humidity gets that far over 50 even in the humid months, but I still use this to knock it down some:

http://www.amazon.com/Eva-dry-Renewable-E-333-Wireless-Dehumidifer/dp/B000H0XFCS

I'd do some testing and if I found the bank was letting the RH get too high because the AC was turned off at night or whatever reason, I'd think about taking my cards out at least during humid time periods. Lack of humidity in the air can cause the cards to get brittle, but for my climate, I don't think that's as much of a concern.