1917 Ty Cobb letter advise

[w7imel]

I saw this and it caught my eye. As you may have noticed I really like Cobb Items (named son Tyrus after all). Any concerns on this? Claimed to be from 1917. MIKE GUTIERREZ LOA who I have never had any problems with but concerned on someone elses letterherd. Thoughts? Any advise will help. Auto looks good to me but any other thoughts would be appreciated greatly.

[w7imel]

No thoughts or concerns from anyone? really?

[Econteachert205]

The subject matter and language is right. I'm not a signature expert by any means but it seems a letter of that sort would be signed and the signature looks to have been done at the same time as the letter. They look to be in the same hand and to have been done at the time, so that all seems right. The signature itself though is a little worrisome to me. The T seems much different than examples I'm looking at as does the flourish at the end of the second b. Hopefully some others will comment to who have much better expertise than me.

[w7imel]

and I agree with everything you said my only problem is im not used to seeing "player"cobb autos as much as I am later day signatures. I have read cobbs earlier signatures were very flamboint but yet to see many of them

[Econteachert205]

http://www.psacard.com/autographfacts/AutographDetail/12/ty-cobb

there are some good examples including some early ones that have a few of the characteristics of yours. You may have already checked.

check the detroit letterhead one especially, looks similar

[khw]

from what i see would have no problem buying this

[Econteachert205]

I agree, the more I looked at early cobb sigs. The less concerned I was. Think it's good, and a great unique piece

[Klrdds]

This is such a great piece. Only one question since the item is framed and we are looking at photos, is there a chance that this could be a photocopy of a letter, especially if Mike authenticated it in the frame without removing it from the frame ? I say this because at times some pieces are authenticated in the frame and not removed from the frame by the authenticator.
I am not trying to be Mister Negative just putting in a question to be sure of this piece.

[gnaz01]

It's fine

[btcarfagno]

Wow. Cobb was such a prolific writer that I didn't even bother with this thread for a while. But a 1917 letter? Now that's a whole 'nother somethin'.

Awesome piece.

Tom C

[w7imel]

Update. I just Bought piece from C&S Sports and Hobby and comes with 14 day return but item to me looks awesome! Having always wantind a cobb letter but didnt want to go to all the hastle to frame and mat and everything that goes along with it. I am sort of pumped this is one of the oldest cobb letters i have ever seen and signature appears to be a 9/10 to me...not bad for almost being 100 years old. Now working on a reson to justify this to the wife when it shows up next week. (i know should have thought of that first). Think I will tell her its a photocopie and was cheap...haha she might go for it

[Econteachert205]

I'd say it was a pretty good investment.

[w7imel]

I think so too but like anything this expensive it makes me nervous. Just the fact its this old and I dont have to be the one to frame and stuff makes it good. And the fact gutieriez athenticated it gives me a little comfort in what I bought

[David Atkatz]

You might very well want to have it re-framed. Right now you have no idea whether archival-safe materials were used--acid free mat, proper adhesives, UV-protective glass, etc. If it were mine, and I wanted the letter framed, I would have it re-done properly.

[khw]

I think so too but like anything this expensive it makes me nervous. Just the fact its this old and I dont have to be the one to frame and stuff makes it good. And the fact gutieriez athenticated it gives me a little comfort in what I bought

ok here is another one , in my opinion i have seen way too many bad signatures authenticated by Guiterrez , again somebody that if you are in the business you look at the autograph , not to get back on the tpa trail but not one i put as much stock in but again my opinion , but this cobb is real imo

[Duluth Eskimo]

Reframing is the only way to go. First, it is very hard to evaluate an item under glass. With a high quality item like this, do you best to ensure that you have the real thing and then frame it in high quality materials so you can enjoy it for generations. Let us know how it works out. Jason

[w7imel]

I agree its real as well, something like this would be IMO waaaay to much work to forge. Not saying it couldnt be done but who has that kind of time....? haha

[Klrdds]

I saw this item listed and considered buying it but after some thought I decided to pass. This is a beautiful piece and rare without a doubt.
I passed for a few reasons .
1. The price seemed too good to be true for an item this rare. In looking on EBay where this item was listed I saw several other Cobb items priced higher than this; especially notes and some letters and even some checks. Also this same seller has a TLS from 1928 listed for $15,000 that comes with the envelope and a 1910 card and on Cobb's letterhead. Why such a low price for something this rare and stunning? Certainly the lack of Cobb' s letterhead would not make this much difference.
2. In referencing Cobb letters sold at auction I could not find any this cheap comparably. Some checks and a few notes, but no letters.
3. Mike Gutierrez ,it is true has had some authentication problems, but who hasn't; but on his COA there is no reference made to this item other than in general terms, and no photo reference on his COA also of this piece. I could also get no help in determining if this is the piece he authenticated and issued the certificate for.
Additionally the COA states 1917, but again I see no reference made in the letter to 1917, so I am curious as to how he dated the letter to 1917. It would be great if the original auction listing were included with the item for comparison or even the mailing envelope , at least .I know that there are samples of Cobb's handwriting thru the years available but how could this sample be dated specific to 1917 and the COA issued as such.
These were some of my thoughts on this item and why I didn't buy it, and I try to use the same logic with all rare purchases I consider making.
I would definitely remove this item and get it looked at by somebody knowledgable, even possibly reaching Mike to see if he has old catalogs available for comparison, and then if it is good get it reframed in a better frame with good archival glass.
I did not mean to ramble......I truly hope this item is as great as it seems and the buyer got one tremendous deal, because it is in my opinion a treasure if real.
I hope the buyer will let us know what he does with it.

[mschwade]

Now working on a reson to justify this to the wife when it shows up next week. (i know should have thought of that first)t

A friend in the hobby gave me this little bit of advice... It's always easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for a large purchase.

[byrone]

Nice letter

What amazes me is how Cobb has been historically branded a tyrant, yet his personal letters reveal a man much different from the Al Stump version. His letters often express appreciation or thanks, often for what seem to be minor or trivial matters. This appears to be a man of compassion and thanksgiving.

While surely Cobb was no saint (who of us is?), the personal Cobb letters help reveal a man of character at odds with the common public perception.

[steve B]

I agree its real as well, something like this would be IMO waaaay to much work to forge. Not saying it couldnt be done but who has that kind of time....? haha

The Cobb letter I saw back in the mid 80's was amazing. And knowing more now about both Cobb and Stump, probably entirely fake.

Cobb letterhead, green ink, first page a nice letter about an autograph request, second page the nasty racist version Stump seems to have created.

For years it was on the list of collectibles I regretted not buying. Having learned that the Cobb we "know" probably was a fabrication by a person who made unsupportable claims if not outright fakes has made me move it into the "probably glad I didn't buy that" category.

I don't know enough to comment on the current letter, but would recommend as others have getting it reframed with the proper materials if it can't be figured out that the current ones are archival.

Steve B

[Mr. Zipper]

Nice letter

What amazes me is how Cobb has been historically branded a tyrant, yet his personal letters reveal a man much different from the Al Stump version. His letters often express appreciation or thanks, often for what seem to be minor or trivial matters. This appears to be a man of compassion and thanksgiving.

While surely Cobb was no saint (who of us is?), the personal Cobb letters help reveal a man of character at odds with the common public perception.

Her is an interesting article that aims to debunk some of the myth that is now common public perception: http://sabr.org/research/georgia-peach-stumped-storyteller

[packs]

Personally I would be bothered by the COA.

That of course does not mean the item isn't authentic. I'm speaking more from a place of being comfortable.

[w7imel]

Nice letter

What amazes me is how Cobb has been historically branded a tyrant, yet his personal letters reveal a man much different from the Al Stump version. His letters often express appreciation or thanks, often for what seem to be minor or trivial matters. This appears to be a man of compassion and thanksgiving.

While surely Cobb was no saint (who of us is?), the personal Cobb letters help reveal a man of character at odds with the common public perception.



Agreed Every letter I have almost ever saw he was always thanking someone for a visit or just good company. While it is well known that Tyrus was a fierce competor Ive yet to see anything cobb had done to remotly be as bad as Stump made him which IMO was a ploy to sell books

[RichardSimon]

Agreed Every letter I have almost ever saw he was always thanking someone for a visit or just good company. While it is well known that Tyrus was a fierce competor Ive yet to see anything cobb had done to remotly be as bad as Stump made him which IMO was a ploy to sell books

fyi - Just in case you were not aware, Stump was a major forger of Cobb items.

[w7imel]

fyi - Just in case you were not aware, Stump was a major forger of Cobb items.

Was reading that Richard, What was his end game behind forging stuff? From everything else almost I ever read cobb was a well respected buisness man and people sought his company.. The way he took care of his past teamates thru life after baseball says tons about him doesnt it?

[RichardSimon]

Was reading that Richard, What was his end game behind forging stuff? From everything else almost I ever read cobb was a well respected buisness man and people sought his company.. The way he took care of his past teamates thru life after baseball says tons about him doesnt it?

His end game was making money. Green ink letters were one of his favorite items.
The forgeries are not very hard to detect by experienced collectors and dealers.

[djson1]

Agreed Every letter I have almost ever saw he was always thanking someone for a visit or just good company. While it is well known that Tyrus was a fierce competor Ive yet to see anything cobb had done to remotly be as bad as Stump made him which IMO was a ploy to sell books

Whether or not Cobb truly deserved a bad rep as he has is debatable. But there seems to be a great turnaround PR move by his supporters and family to un-tarnish a lot of his bad image in recent decades. There’s no doubt that Al Stump lost a ton of credibility as a writer (and his fake memorabilia and forgeries certainly didn’t help). However, there still seems to be a lot of anecdotes by players and fans of just how bad of a personality he did have. He may have even been a big racist, but he DID grow up in a time in Georgia where just about everybody was racist and it was just about acceptable. I’m sure he would have been more “PC” if he grew up in this day and age.

All the bad personality aspects aside, I still greatly admire Cobb for the player he was and his great hitting ability. The bottom line is, we can’t really rate a baseball player on his personality unless you actually knew or at least met the guy in person. Many of us collectors have probably met guys like Musial and Gwynn and thought how nice they were…and they truly were nice guys! But I can’t say if Cobb was truly nice just based on some articles and sample letters he wrote. Just because he thanked people in letters, doesn’t mean he was a really nice guy (I’m not saying he was really bad either).

By the way, I heard Tris Speaker was one of the biggest racists in the game too, but I still admire him for his playing ability.

[byrone]

Whether or not Cobb truly deserved a bad rep as he has is debatable. But there seems to be a great turnaround PR move by his supporters and family to un-tarnish a lot of his bad image in recent decades. There’s no doubt that Al Stump lost a ton of credibility as a writer (and his fake memorabilia and forgeries certainly didn’t help). However, there still seems to be a lot of anecdotes by players and fans of just how bad of a personality he did have. He may have even been a big racist, but he DID grow up in a time in Georgia where just about everybody was racist and it was just about acceptable. I’m sure he would have been more “PC” if he grew up in this day and age.

All the bad personality aspects aside, I still greatly admire Cobb for the player he was and his great hitting ability. The bottom line is, we can’t really rate a baseball player on his personality unless you actually knew or at least met the guy in person. Many of us collectors have probably met guys like Musial and Gwynn and thought how nice they were…and they truly were nice guys! But I can’t say if Cobb was truly nice just based on some articles and sample letters he wrote. Just because he thanked people in letters, doesn’t mean he was a really nice guy (I’m not saying he was really bad either).

By the way, I heard Tris Speaker was one of the biggest racists in the game too, but I still admire him for his playing ability.

Interesting stuff here on Cobb and racism

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess02.html

[packs]

I don't know if I would really call Cobb a racist though. After reading about his scholarship fund (which is still awarding scholarships today) and about how he bought up large plots of land in Georgia specifically to build cheap housing for minorities, I find it hard to believe he hated minorities.

Here's Cobb's response to a reporter asking him about Jackie Robinson in 1952:


"Certainly it is O.K. for them to play," he said, "I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.”