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the 'stache
09-07-2014, 04:33 AM
Hi everybody,

I've stumbled across a few posts over the last week or so where it was mentioned that a lot more research about the T206 set was needed. However, no specifics were mentioned as to what aspects of the set needed to be explored.

We know definitively when the cards were printed. We have a complete list of the advertising backs that were utilized on the different cards, and we know all the different brands fell under the larger ATC umbrella. We have a pretty good idea about back scarcity, as well as when the different advertisements were printed (ie which set runs would have included the various backs). The player checklist is complete. We know of all the different variations within the set, ie there are four different Ty Cobb cards, two Walter Johnson, etc. Ted Z has done some excellent work theorizing how the sheets were laid out. We know when those sheets were printed how many different inks were used, and in which order. Etc etc etc.

So, I'd like to ask, what areas are needing more research? Because of my medical predicament, I have a lot of free time. I mean a lot. While I can't jump in my car and drive around as much as I'd like, I have access to the internet, and I can e-mail anybody that I could go see in person.

When I was in college, I was a research major. I'd initially thought I was going to go to law school, but as I went further into my undergraduate work, it became evident that it was the history of law, and precedent research for Supreme Court cases in particular, that really captured my imagination. I spent many nights at the library using Lexis and Westlaw. Eventually, I took those research skills, and worked for DaimlerChrysler. Then a few years later, I went to work for Ameritrade, and became a stockbroker. I was able to help people, and use my research skills when clients were looking to make investment decisions, and wanted to compare financial histories of multiple companies within the same sector. I am a sociable person, but I have no problem spending hours digging through old books, or newspapers, or magazines to find what I'm looking for.

I am a serious T206 collector, yet I have a long way to go until I will be able to even see the light at the end of the tunnel. Because I will be buying other cards besides those from the Monster, I anticipate it will take me more than ten years to complete the set. But I am not in any rush, and if I could somehow further the knowledge of the T206 set, I'd love to do what I can to help. Who knows, maybe a few other collectors would like to do the same.

So, what areas need to be explored? Point me in the right direction, maybe suggest some resources to start out with, and let me get to work. Thanks!

clydepepper
09-07-2014, 06:52 AM
Bill- It occurs to me that while there is generally a consensus on the normal size of the T206, they were produced at a time when absolutes did not exist. Many a card is labeled as non-gradable due to 'trimming', but, perhaps that is an easy out.

This info request may indeed take nothing short of a time machine, but there should be more written on the exact known dimensions of the cards at on production date given that even within the large Piedmont group there may have been differences. Determining exactly how many machines were invoiced in the actual printing process could go a ways to that end.

Maybe this is all common knowledge already...I just have not seen it.

Another area to research is which ML players were NOT included and for what reasons...there had to be a few with a few.

Peter_Spaeth
09-07-2014, 10:23 AM
How about, why were so few Wagners and Planks produced? :D:D

I'm only being semi-facetious, I don't think to date there really is a definitive answer.

tonyo
09-07-2014, 10:38 AM
Since starting to collect the monster about 5 years ago, I've wanted to know the general population of each back relative to a 524 card set. I'd like the composition of my monster to reflect the relative percentage of backs that exist.

I cobbed together some rough numbers a couple of years ago using Scot Reader's data and Bill Brown's superset spreadsheet. Thank you both Scot and Bill by the way for all your effort and willingness to share! I am currently using those rough numbers as guideline for my set.

I tried to get a more definitive answer from the t206resource guys around that same time when they were rolling out their website, but the general response was that there are too many variables to determine the "relative % of each back per 524 cards". I can see why that may be true, it's certainly true if I try to do it myself :), I was just a tad surprised. I wasn't and still am not versed enough to question if it is actually possible or not. I just suspect that a good estimate can be made.

Anyway, here is the list of relative back population which I am using:


back (target number of each back per 524)
p150 (54-62)
p350-460 25 (24-27)
p350 (153-168)
p350-460 42 (1-2)

sc350-460 42 (3)
sc150 25 (7-8)
sc350-460 30 (9-10)
sc150 30 (25)
sc350 25 (11-16)
sc350 30 (61-65)
sc150 649 op (6-9)
sc350-460 25 (2-3)
sc350-460 42 op (6-10)

sov150 (8-11)
sov350 (19-22)
sov460 (4-6)
pb (26)
om (9)
epdg (5-8)
tolstoi (6-8)
cyc350 (5-6)
cyc460 (1-3)
ab350 nf (1-4)
ab350 wf (3-11)
ab460 (1-4)

hindu brown (3-7)
cb (1-3)
bl350 (1-2)
hindu red (1)
lenox black (1)
drum (1)
uzit (1)
lenox brown (1)
bl460 (1)


All those (1)'s are really a very small percentage, but I rounded up to (1) since I'd need 1 of each in my set to represent the back distribution. I doubt I'll ever have any of those small (number) backs - if I have to pay market price for them that is!.

Sean1125
09-07-2014, 11:02 AM
Since starting to collect the monster about 5 years ago, I've wanted to know the general population of each back relative to a 524 card set. I'd like the composition of my monster to reflect the relative percentage of backs that exist.

I cobbed together some rough numbers a couple of years ago using Scot Reader's data and Bill Brown's superset spreadsheet. Thank you both Scot and Bill by the way for all your effort and willingness to share! I am currently using those rough numbers as guideline for my set.

I tried to get a more definitive answer from the t206resource guys a couple of years ago when they were rolling out their website, but the general response was that there are too many variables to determine the "relative % of each back per 524 cards". I can see why that may be true, it's certainly true if I try to do it alone :), I was just a tad surprised. I wasn't and still am not versed enough to question if it is actually possible or not. I just suspect that a good estimate can be made.

Anyway, here is the list of relative back population which I am using:


back (target number of each back per 524)
p150 (54-62)
p350-460 25 (24-27)
p350 (153-168)
p350-460 42 (1-2)

sc350-460 42 (3)
sc150 25 (7-8)
sc350-460 30 (9-10)
sc150 30 (25)
sc350 25 (11-16)
sc350 30 (61-65)
sc150 649 op (6-9)
sc350-460 25 (2-3)
sc350-460 42 op (6-10)

sov150 (8-11)
sov350 (19-22)
sov460 (4-6)
pb (26)
om (9)
epdg (5-8)
tolstoi (6-8)
cyc350 (5-6)
cyc460 (1-3)
ab350 nf (1-4)
ab350 wf (3-11)
ab460 (1-4)

hindu brown (3-7)
cb (1-3)
bl350 (1-2)
hindu red (1)
lenox black (1)
drum (1)
uzit (1)
lenox brown (1)
bl460 (1)


All those (1)'s are really a very small percentage, but I rounded up to (1) since I'd need 1 of each in my set to represent the back distribution. I doubt I'll ever have any of those small (number) backs - if I have to pay market price for them that is!.

The sweet cap 42 is to be disagreed with.

Jantz
09-07-2014, 11:32 AM
Hi Bill

A project I've had on the back burner for awhile now was to find the 48th player with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 no overprint back. Honestly I just haven't had time to look for another.

So far there are 47 known examples, with an Ames (Hands above Head) recently being confirmed, so I'm almost positive a 48th player is out there.


Jantz

ethicsprof
09-07-2014, 01:21 PM
finding examples of type 1 photos which served as the bases for all 524 cards would be quite an accomplishment. It would also be very interesting to see which
photographers were 'responsible' for each of the 524.

I suspect that you are going to have lots of fun with several projects!!!
all the best,
barry

Jantz
09-07-2014, 02:52 PM
finding examples of type 1 photos which served as the bases for all 524 cards would be quite an accomplishment. It would also be very interesting to see which
photographers were 'responsible' for each of the 524.

I suspect that you are going to have lots of fun with several projects!!!
all the best,
barry


I agree with Barry. This would be another good project that could hold some interesting results.

Jantz

t206hound
09-07-2014, 05:43 PM
Hi Bill

A project I've had on the back burner for awhile now was to find the 48th player with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 no overprint back. Honestly I just haven't had time to look for another.

So far there are 47 known examples, with an Ames (Hands above Head) recently being confirmed, so I'm almost positive a 48th player is out there.


Jantz

I sold the Ames when it was listed as a probable no print... and I had seen another one on eBay right around the same time. 47 is literally and figuratively an odd number.

the 'stache
09-07-2014, 08:46 PM
Barry,

You've touched upon something that has interested me since the first time I saw the Wagner photo that was used for his T206 portrait.

I know t206resource.com has several of these. 47 to be precise.

That would make for a fascinating project!

I'll look over these more tonight. Thanks, gang.

finding examples of type 1 photos which served as the bases for all 524 cards would be quite an accomplishment. It would also be very interesting to see which
photographers were 'responsible' for each of the 524.

I suspect that you are going to have lots of fun with several projects!!!
all the best,
barry

ethicsprof
09-07-2014, 09:31 PM
glad that you're excited about this one. Type 1 photos for these cards would
be great fun to look at anyway!
47 means you just have 477 to go! :)
I know Scott F. has a section of his website dedicated to this work, too.
I suspect there may be others.


jantz,
thanks for the supportive words.
always great to hear from you.

all the best, bill and jantz
barry

steve B
09-07-2014, 10:46 PM
There are a lot of things to look into. It all depends on what you're interested in.

Making some lists of the three (Maybe more) versions of both the 150's and 350's is one. Figuring out which cards share common traits, and what backs they have.

Studying the registration marks to maybe figure out how many instances of the same subject might have been on a sheet.

Finding solid but small differences between the 350 runs and the 450/460 runs of the card that are in both.

That's just a few examples.

Of course, if you find that sort of thing painfully dull and want no part of it.....I totally understand. :D

Steve B

wolf441
09-08-2014, 09:04 AM
This is probably not possible, but what about tracking down lists of employees who worked at the various factories in 1909-1911? I doubt that any of the records survived and it's a shot in the dark, but I've never heard of someone attempting to go this route. Maybe even finding out who was in charge of printing/advertising at ALC. If we could ever get some definitive names, maybe we could track down families and see if they had keep any business correspondence, etc...

Just thinking out loud :D

atx840
09-08-2014, 09:38 AM
Definitely not type 1s but a few more originals.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=179712

the 'stache
09-10-2014, 02:55 AM
Chris,

That's some really impressive work you've done there. May I ask how you've been finding these? Are you just scouring the web for images on particular players? Ideally, there would be a large database of images for every player that's worn a Major League uniform. Major League Baseball has done some nice things in releasing historical clips and games on Youtube. I'd love to see them open up their archives.

Are we sure that a type 1 photo exists for each card in the set? Call it a gut feeling, but if we're seeing them for players that never made it to the Majors (ie Dutch Revelle), I have to believe that each card has a matching high quality photo. It's just a matter of knowing where to look to find them.

I tip my hat to you, sir. Chapeau.



Definitely not type 1s but a few more originals.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=179712

Jobu
09-10-2014, 08:06 AM
This resaerch may already have been done (if so please share) but has anyone ever tried to map out where the different ad backs were available? For example, if I lived in Chicago my collection could have included backs X, Y, and Z but not D, E, and F because those products weren't sold in Chicago.

BicycleSpokes
09-10-2014, 09:56 AM
Hi Bill,

Since I started collecting t206, there is one aspect I have found especially interesting:

While these cards have been around for over 100 years old, they still seem to have quite wild fluctuations / bubbles, etc. in their relative demand.

I have only been collecting t206 cards for like a total of 3 active years - I started around 2007 or 2008, and then took about a 5-or-so year break after my daughter was born, before becoming relatively active again this past year. Hence I have had sort of a miniture "Rip Van Winkle" experience. Upon my return, I could easily notice a number of fairly dramatic changes that had occured in the hobby. Among these:

1. True auctions were increasingly rare on ebay (replaced by typically overpriced Buy-it-nows)
2. Rare back brands (and some varieties like cycle 460) had exploded further (this has already been documented by Scot Reader's piece in 2012)
3. The Titus-itus bubble

... and perhaps other more recent trends that I may be missing... Again, these are just well-documented things over the past few years...

A question that could be interesting to research / document / quantify (or maybe is already common knowledge with other more seasoned collectors): Are such wild fluctuations in backs / certain common players only a thing that have occured recently, or have there been other wild price fluctuations / bubbles with certain players/cards in the long t206 history?

At least is one aspect I have found fascinating, personally! The collecting of 100 year old cards is certainly more dynamic than I had expected...

Cheers,
David

teetwoohsix
09-10-2014, 11:36 AM
This is probably not possible, but what about tracking down lists of employees who worked at the various factories in 1909-1911? I doubt that any of the records survived and it's a shot in the dark, but I've never heard of someone attempting to go this route. Maybe even finding out who was in charge of printing/advertising at ALC. If we could ever get some definitive names, maybe we could track down families and see if they had keep any business correspondence, etc...

Just thinking out loud :D

I think this is a great idea. Would probably be very difficult but I do think if there was a way to find more records, or employees (or family of employees who may have records and not realize the significance ;)), this could be extremely helpful.

One of the most difficult things to really get a definitive answer on seems to be the size of the sheet.......but thanks to some dedicated board members, I think, aside from discovering a long lost sheet :D- people like Chris and Erick are getting us closer to actually putting a virtual one together- like in that thread with the Lash's postcards.

Good luck Bill, it's hard finding out things others haven't already found out :o I literally tried for months- and really couldn't come up with anything new. The Library of Congress was very helpful- even they said if there were more records (like Steve said above) from the ALC it could answer a lot of questions. Maybe you could comb newspaper articles and make some discoveries.

Sincerely, Clayton

ethicsprof
09-10-2014, 12:41 PM
I much appreciate your focus on looking for high quality matching photos.
I would think that this would open the path to identifying type one with the photographers responsible for them. This should be a fascinating and groundbreaking effort for the hobby. Your focus mentioned above is already a very,very
important step, I believe.

all the best, bill


barry