Doug Allen to plead guilty.....

[wonkaticket]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/ex-mastro-auctions-exec-plead-guilty-memorabilia-fraud-case-article-1.1888759

Say it isn't so Joe....I mean Doug.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/ex-mastro-auctions-exec-plead-guilty-memorabilia-fraud-case-article-1.1888759

Say it isn't so Joe....I mean Doug.


I wonder how this impacts Legendary Auctions?

[calvindog]

But I have emails from Doug in which he denied shill bidding or committing any fraud in the hobby. And I have a phone message he left me denying the same! He assured me he would never engage in fraud and that I could be comfortable in bidding in his auctions! I'm stunned!

Well, I never saw this one coming I can tell you that.

[calvindog]

I wonder how this impacts Legendary Auctions?

Have you seen their latest auction? It's as if they turned over the cushions on their couch and whatever they found comprised the auction. I can say this: I wouldn't trust the authenticity of a single autograph or game used item in their auction. Nearly anyone who matters in that auction house is a crook and in desperate times, crooks act desperately -- even more desperately than when they were making money.

[gnaz01]

Have you seen their latest auction? It's as if they turned over the cushions on their couch and whatever they found comprised the auction. I can say this: I wouldn't trust the authenticity of a single autograph or game used item in their auction. Nearly anyone who matters in that auction house is a crook and in desperate times, crooks act desperately -- even more desperately than when they were making money.

Hey Jeff, let us know how you really feel :)

[Basilone]

Bad timing for him. Smack dab in the middle of the National. Yikes.

[CMIZ5290]

Wonder why their stuff keeps bringing tons of money?? A lot of collectors evidently still trust and believe in them...

[Ladder7]

Remember what PT Barnum said?


Wonder why their stuff keeps bringing tons of money?? A lot of collectors evidently still trust and believe in them...

[HRBAKER]

Addicts don't care where they score.

[base_ball]

Mr. Allen won't be the first boss to continue to run his organization from federal prison

[calvindog]

Wonder why their stuff keeps bringing tons of money?? A lot of collectors evidently still trust and believe in them...

Sure, plenty of dishonest consigners conspired with Mastro and Doug to shill their items up. Some even on this board.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

But I have emails from Doug in which he denied shill bidding or committing any fraud in the hobby. And I have a phone message he left me denying the same! He assured me he would never engage in fraud and that I could be comfortable in bidding in his auctions! I'm stunned!

Well, I never saw this one coming I can tell you that.

Does this now mean you won't be giving Mr. Allen a glowing character reference when he comes up for sentencing? ;)

[CMIZ5290]

Sure, plenty of dishonest consigners conspired with Mastro and Doug to shill their items up. Some even on this board.

Jeff- I hear what you are saying, but who on this board? I have done several deals with you and I know your integrity and honesty...To me, if this is in fact true, it should be brought out in the forum. Maybe it has and I missed it...

[calvindog]

Jeff- I hear what you are saying, but who on this board? I have done several deals with you and I know your integrity and honesty...To me, if this is in fact true, it should be brought out in the forum. Maybe it has and I missed it...

What's the difference? You know who all the consigners are in a particular auction?

[CMIZ5290]

What's the difference? You know who all the consigners are in a particular auction?

Fair enough. Bad question on my part I guess, sorry...

[wonkaticket]

Sure, plenty of dishonest consigners conspired with Mastro and Doug to shill their items up. Some even on this board.

Really nah...couldn't be...gee I wonder who? :D

[keithsky]

Boy this hobby sure needs to be cleaned up. Its like the bank mess these big auction houses think there to big to fail

[CMIZ5290]

I'd like to know why the heads of the National let these guys run an auction or even set up a booth. Guess its all about the money. Where's the ethics

delete...

[Peter_Spaeth]

My cynical opinion is:

[tbob]

Does this now mean you won't be giving Mr. Allen a glowing character reference when he comes up for sentencing? ;)


I doubt anyone could out-do Steven Cummings' scathing letter to the court about Mastro which was penned back in early 2013.

[Brian Van Horn]

I bid in Legendary Auctions once. I have stated it before on this board. I will never bid in another Legendary Auction. Once was enough.

[Wildfireschulte]

I bid in Legendary Auctions once. I have stated it before on this board. I will never bid in another Legendary Auction. Once was enough.

My opinion is that all of the old, original auction houses operated around the fringe - if not outright shill bidding, they all write glowing descriptions of items that defy logic. Bill just got too greedy and was caught and burried his understudies with him. My guess is Oser will keep LA going without Doug if necessary. Which of the old guard auction houses do you consider squeaky clean enough to get your business? REA?

[Brian Van Horn]

None.

[Peter_Spaeth]

lol

[Brian Van Horn]

Every one of them has had their legal issues.

[oldjudge]

So instead you deal with all the solid citizens on Ebay?

[oldjudge]

Duplicate post--sorry

[Wildfireschulte]

If Billy and Doug end up in the same minimum security joint, we should try to organize a card show there - a sort of conjugal card show? Bring all of our reprints, trimmed, bleached...

[Brian Van Horn]

So instead you deal with all the solid citizens on Ebay?

eBay is not perfect. I have numerous stories about that matter, but eBay at least has some framework of a system flawed as it is for the customer. If you totaled all the cards I have picked up from eBay and all of the cards I have picked up from auction houses, the weight would be greatly in favor of eBay, but the total from both is nowhere near forty per cent of my of collection.

[HRBAKER]

As Doug (or anyone for that matter) surveys the landscape of this wondrous hobby, is there any reason for him to assume he won't be welcomed back with open arms as long as he can put his hands on the goods?

In a word, no.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As Doug (or anyone for that matter) surveys the landscape of this wondrous hobby, is there any reason for him to assume he won't be welcomed back with open arms as long as he can put his hands on the goods?

In a word, no.

An Al Qaeda fundraiser would set records in this hobby if it had the material.

[wonkaticket]

An Al Qaeda fundraiser would set records in this hobby if it had the material.

And as long as they are willing to send anyone a free catalog or magnet. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

And as long as they are willing to send anyone a free catalog or magnet. :)

Received my catalog today. Thanks, Ayman!!

[whitehse]

As Doug (or anyone for that matter) surveys the landscape of this wondrous hobby, is there any reason for him to assume he won't be welcomed back with open arms as long as he can put his hands on the goods?

In a word, no.

One would hope the court would impose, along with a jail sentence, a sentence that would tell these guilty parties that they are not to have anything to do with this hobby either for ten years or for life.

I suspect that wont happen though.

[4815162342]

An Al Qaeda fundraiser would set records in this hobby if it had the material.

And as long as they are willing to send anyone a free catalog or magnet. :)

Received my catalog today. Thanks, Ayman!!

http://funnyanimalpictures.funnypicturesutopia.com/pics/24/Very-Cute-Asian-Baby-Laughing-Funny-Caption-Picture.jpg

[calvindog]

Doug and Bill will be on supervised release once they leave prison. If they violate their terms of release -- such as committing fraud -- they could be returned to prison. I'm certain they will be closely watched upon release. That at least one or both of them cooperated or attempted to cooperate against any and everyone in the hobby that they could have should at least give would be co-conspirators some pause upon dealing with them again, however. Because obviously anyone who would not only steal from their friends but them try to put their friends in prison is not someone most sane people would want to go near.

[keithsky]

Why did the guys running the National let these guys run a live auction let alone have a booth. I would be afraid the government would cease the stuff and the auction winners would never get there items. Totally wrong that these guys were even a loud in the building. Wish I was a fly on the wall at there booth to see what comments were said as people went by

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why did the guys running the National let these guys run a live auction let alone have a booth. I would be afraid the government would cease the stuff and the auction winners would never get there items. Totally wrong that these guys were even a loud in the building. Wish I was a fly on the wall at there booth to see what comments were said as people went by

Had Doug pleaded at the time? If not, he is presumed innocent.

[calvindog]

Had Doug pleaded at the time? If not, he is presumed innocent.

Well, just because you're presumed innocent in connection with a criminal case doesn't mean a private organization has to rent space out to someone accused of a massive fraud in that very industry. However, if you cleared out all the felons from renting tables out at a baseball card show it could get a bit lonely inside.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To quote the great line from Ben Hur, "bravely spoken." :eek:

[wonkaticket]

Well, just because you're presumed innocent in connection with a criminal case doesn't mean a private organization has to rent space out to someone accused of a massive fraud in that very industry. However, if you cleared out all the felons from renting tables out at a baseball card show it could get a bit lonely inside.

Lol, so true.

[E93]

I was not at the National this year, but if it was like years past, they ran their auction independent of the actual National. They rented a space in Cleveland to hold their event. The organizers of the National can't stop that.
JimB

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Doug and Bill will be on supervised release once they leave prison. If they violate their terms of release -- such as committing fraud -- they could be returned to prison. I'm certain they will be closely watched upon release. That at least one or both of them cooperated or attempted to cooperate against any and everyone in the hobby that they could have should at least give would be co-conspirators some pause upon dealing with them again, however. Because obviously anyone who would not only steal from their friends but them try to put their friends in prison is not someone most sane people would want to go near.

Well, at least as a fall-back plan, they can always be PSA Authorized Dealers in 5 years.

[Exhibitman]

At the show Allen and Theotkis were chasing collectors like an ugly girl at a Sadie Hawkins dance. It was pretty funny to watch.

[wonkaticket]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-exmemorabilia-seller-pleads-guilty-to-mail-fraud-20140805-story.html?track=rss

Now Mark is guilty what's going on? :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[MikeU]

I wonder how this impacts Legendary Auctions?

+1

[wonkaticket]

I wonder how this impacts Legendary Auctions?

No offense and not a shot at the OP but who cares? It’s not like Legendary Auctions is a major corporation who has tens of thousands of innocent people working for them. This isn’t GM going under, or Boeing it’s an auction house. An auction house which like most in our hobby is made up of a handful of people at best with a few exceptions.

Being blunt Legendary Auctions is a business run by a handful of now well documented crooks who spun off from another now well documented crook/crooks. Who cares what happens to these guys, let alone the shell they operated their crimes under or were linked too.

We all should be furious about this or at the very least just be happy we got our winnings/paid on consignments drop the mic and move on from these jack wagons.

They on the other hand should pay the price for preying on their clients who trusted them, and the hobby that gave them the opportunity to make a great living. Not a lot of folks get the chance these guys did in life. Such a shame greed had to have them piss it away. I can’t even figure why anyone would want to be friends with these guys now. Let alone wonder or think about what happens to their business.

Just my two cents…

[calvindog]

No offense and not a shot at the OP but who cares? It’s not like Legendary Auctions is a major corporation who has tens of thousands of innocent people working for them. This isn’t GM going under, or Boeing it’s an auction house. An auction house which like most in our hobby is made up of a handful of people at best with a few exceptions.

Being blunt Legendary Auctions is a business run by a handful of now well documented crooks who spun off from another now well documented crook/crooks. Who cares what happens to these guys, let alone the shell they operated their crimes under or were linked too.

We all should be furious about this or at the very least just be happy we got our winnings/paid on consignments drop the mic and move on from these jack wagons.

They on the other hand should pay the price for preying on their clients who trusted them, and the hobby that gave them the opportunity to make a great living. Not a lot of folks get the chance these guys did in life. Such a shame greed had to have them piss it away. I can’t even figure why anyone would want to be friends with these guys now. Let alone wonder or think about what happens to their business.

Just my two cents…

John, you clearly never received a free catalog. Or consigned items to Mastro/Legendary and shill bid your lots up. Or needed Doug or Bill to maybe throw a few bucks at you and that thin reed of a hope was enough for you to defend them. As for what remains of Legendary what remains of them now? Their auctions are filled with nothing and the people who run the place are going to jail.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

No offense and not a shot at the OP but who cares? It’s not like Legendary Auctions is a major corporation who has tens of thousands of innocent people working for them. This isn’t GM going under, or Boeing it’s an auction house. An auction house which like most in our hobby is made up of a handful of people at best with a few exceptions.

Being blunt Legendary Auctions is a business run by a handful of now well documented crooks who spun off from another now well documented crook/crooks. Who cares what happens to these guys, let alone the shell they operated their crimes under or were linked too.

We all should be furious about this or at the very least just be happy we got our winnings/paid on consignments drop the mic and move on from these jack wagons.

They on the other hand should pay the price for preying on their clients who trusted them, and the hobby that gave them the opportunity to make a great living. Not a lot of folks get the chance these guys did in life. Such a shame greed had to have them piss it away. I can’t even figure why anyone would want to be friends with these guys now. Let alone wonder or think about what happens to their business.

Just my two cents…

First off, I never once bid on their auctions so I think you misinterpreted my question as if I would be on suicide watch to learn Legendary is now defunct.

Like you, my hope is that Legendary is now out of business permanently and not run by some puppet management until Allen and company return from the hoosegow.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Doug Allen's admission that he runs a "full gouging retail [auction]" where bidders "are pushed to the next level" with a "safe environment to buy" (See excerpt 3:58 through 5:15).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkOLo758vTE

[wonkaticket]

Good video Dan, ahh how to build a world class...

Dan read my post I say no shot at the OP, wasn't aimed at you. Just have heard that a bunch "what will happen to Legendary" from lots of folks that's all my post was about.

a "full gouging retail [auction]" where bidders "are pushed to the next level" with a "safe environment to buy"

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/sports-auction.jpg

Here is some of the game used equipment where folks were...ummm how did Doug phrase that....oh that's right "pushed to the next level" if you will. :D

[keithsky]

Those guys that consigned there high end stuff in Legendarys live auction that was run during the national are you nuts? Why would you take a chance on not getting your money knowing these guys possibly could go to jail or the government cease all there stuff if that would happen. I'm not a lawyer so not sure how all that works but just seems risky even if you were a buyer in that auction

[oldjudge]

Keith--the government doesn't "cease", they "seize". Are you sure you're not a lawyer?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Keith--the government doesn't "cease", they "seize". Are you sure you're not a lawyer?
Ouch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Keith--the government doesn't "cease", they "seize". Are you sure you're not a lawyer?

Jay -- "the government" is an it, not a they. :)

[oldjudge]

With what we have in Washington now i think "they" is appropriate, although if you will spot me an "sh" I will go along with you.

[wonkaticket]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-auction-house-exec-pleads-guilty-to-fraud-in-sale-of-baseball-memorabilia-20140811-story.html

Why not have two threads up at the top, hopefully Jeff wont mind if so we can discuss over dinner...just talk into my tie Jeff very clearly. :D

[4815162342]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-auction-house-exec-pleads-guilty-to-fraud-in-sale-of-baseball-memorabilia-20140811-story.html



Why not have two threads up at the top, hopefully Jeff wont mind if so we can discuss over dinner...just talk into my tie Jeff very clearly. :D


http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/data/1271/rotfl.gif

[calvindog]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-auction-house-exec-pleads-guilty-to-fraud-in-sale-of-baseball-memorabilia-20140811-story.html

Why not have two threads up at the top, hopefully Jeff wont mind if so we can discuss over dinner...just talk into my tie Jeff very clearly. :D

What's better than stealing from all your hobby friends and then ratting out all your hobby friends -- obstructing justice too!

[wonkaticket]

What's better than stealing from all your hobby friends and then ratting out all your hobby friends -- obstructing justice too!

So funny. Sad but funny.

Guess I know a Plank that will need reviewed again soon. Just remember. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/tshirt_barcode_full%20copy.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/26834_lg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/26834b_lg.jpg

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=35826

The more I read the more I miss these guys. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/honus.jpg

[wonkaticket]

More Mastro hits...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=89841

[calvindog]

Here's a good one. Lots of smart people chiming in here:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82936&highlight=plancich

[Orioles1954]

Can't believe that was 8 years ago! Time certainly does fly.

[btcarfagno]

Here's a good one. Lots of smart people chiming in here:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82936&highlight=plancich

Wow. That thread is a veritable jukebox of ignorance and stupidity.

Tom C

[slidekellyslide]

nevermind....too busy for a pissing contest today.

[keithsky]

To all the consignors and winning bidders in Legendarys live auction this past National, To quote Jay Leno to Hugh Grant " What were you thinking" Sure hope you guys get your money and bidders get your winnngs

[Leon]

Sad things in the hobby. Those culprits will pay a heavy price. I have sympathy for their families..

Accolades to the FBI and other law enforcement. They have helped the hobby immeasurably and I for one am very thankful for them. I hope they keep investigating for a long, long time. And thanks to Jeff L for continuing to carry the torch.....

and lastly, Fripples, if you get into any more heated or "disagreeing type" discussions your name will need to be out here per the rules. I and a few others know you but most of the board doesn't. Nothing personal..

[bn2cardz]

So funny. Sad but funny.

Guess I know a Plank that will need reviewed again soon. Just remember. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/tshirt_barcode_full%20copy.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/26834_lg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/26834b_lg.jpg

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=35826

The more I read the more I miss these guys. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/honus.jpg

I asked in the other thread, when I mentioned the PSA 6 Plank, if anyone thinks this will affect PSA. Let me rephrase this, does anyone think that PSA will have a rollover investigation from the FBI considering the cards Mastro and Co. are now admitting to altering are in PSA holders?

It seems to me that if the Noe investigation led to the Mastro investigation (as is mentioned in one of the threads) that then led to Allen and Rodgers, wouldn't the next logical step be an investigation into PSA especially considering it is a publicly held company?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I asked in the other thread, when I mentioned the PSA 6 Plank, if anyone thinks this will affect PSA. Let me rephrase this, does anyone think that PSA will have a rollover investigation from the FBI considering the cards Mastro and Co. are now admitting to altering are in PSA holders?

It seems to me that if the Noe investigation led to the Mastro investigation (as is mentioned in one of the threads) that then led to Allen and Rodgers, wouldn't the next logical step be an investigation into PSA especially considering it is a publicly held company?


These are good questions and it's very disturbing that some of these cards were holdered.

There likely several problems. One problem is the statute of limitations since a lot of this happened more than five years ago. The other problem is proving that PSA intentionally graded doctored cards and that will be difficult since that would require someone admitting that bad cards were deliberately graded. PSA's obvious defense will be incompetence.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see Mastro's submission records to PSA and same goes with some of these consignors who submitted cards to PSA like the Plank PSA 6 that ended up in Mastro Auctions. Obviously these submissions now need to be rigorously scrutinized and the bad cards need to be bought back by PSA.

[Leon]

These are good questions and it's very disturbing that some of these cards were holdered.

There likely several problems. One problem is the statute of limitations since a lot of this happened more than five years ago. The other problem is proving that PSA intentionally graded doctored cards and that will be difficult since that would require someone admitting that bad cards were deliberately graded. PSA's obvious defense will be incompetence.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see Mastro's submission records to PSA and same goes with some of these consignors who submitted cards to PSA like the Plank PSA 6 that ended up in Mastro Auctions. Obviously these submissions now need to be rigorously scrutinized and the bad cards need to be bought back by PSA.

In my tiny bit of knowledge of law the Statute of Limitations, for many or most things, doesn't seem to start until the issue is known about. So if something happened 10+ yrs ago, but was only recently found out about, then that is when the Statute starts, not when it originally happened. I have never thought PSA did anything knowingly wrong although the PSA 8 Wagner has some stories that might contradict that. And yes, I would certainly agree that PSA needs to fix any mistakes of incompetence of otherwise, as any business does.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Leon,

Here's an excerpt from an article for criminal statute of limitations:

Federal statutes are only applicable to federal crimes. Typically, those are crimes which violate a congressionally mandated law or take place on federal property. Mail fraud and burglarizing or vandalizing a federally owned property are examples of what can be considered a federal crime.

Each type of federal crime has it's own type of statute of limitations however there is no statute of limitations for federal crimes punishable by death. Certain federal terrorism crimes do not have a statute of limitations either. Otherwise, prosecution for other federal crimes must begin within 5 years from the time the offense was committed. There are a few exceptions, such as arson, art theft, particular crimes against financial institutions and various immigration offenses which all carry statutes of limitations longer than the five-year norm.

No matter the applicable statute of limitations, the time period can be extended because of certain circumstances. For example, when the accused is a fugitive or the case involves charges of wartime fraud against the government, the statute of limitations can be lengthened.

Examples of federal crimes that receive extended statutes of limitations:

20 years for major theft of art work
10 years for arson, certain crimes against financial institutions and immigration offenses
8 years for non-violent violations of the terrorism-associated statutes

http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/statute-of-limitations-federal-vs-state-crimes

So in this instance, it appears that 5 years is the statute of limitations because I don't see any of those exceptions applying here.

But, your statement is generally true for civil liability unless it was something that should have been discovered with reasonable diligence. However, PSA does have a buy-back policy, which should be the easiest avenue for recovery.

[calvindog]

I'm sure Doug Allen provided all info to the federal investigators about PSA when he was cooperating. Before he obstructed justice, obviously. Same with Bill and John Rogers. Of course, all of their info would need to be corroborated because Doug, Bill and John are not exactly trustworthy individuals.

Regardless, I have no doubt Joe Orlando is more nervous than usual these days.

[bn2cardz]

Leon,

Here's an excerpt from an article for criminal statute of limitations:

Federal statutes are only applicable to federal crimes. Typically, those are crimes which violate a congressionally mandated law or take place on federal property. Mail fraud and burglarizing or vandalizing a federally owned property are examples of what can be considered a federal crime.

Each type of federal crime has it's own type of statute of limitations however there is no statute of limitations for federal crimes punishable by death. Certain federal terrorism crimes do not have a statute of limitations either. Otherwise, prosecution for other federal crimes must begin within 5 years from the time the offense was committed. There are a few exceptions, such as arson, art theft, particular crimes against financial institutions and various immigration offenses which all carry statutes of limitations longer than the five-year norm.

No matter the applicable statute of limitations, the time period can be extended because of certain circumstances. For example, when the accused is a fugitive or the case involves charges of wartime fraud against the government, the statute of limitations can be lengthened.

Examples of federal crimes that receive extended statutes of limitations:

20 years for major theft of art work
10 years for arson, certain crimes against financial institutions and immigration offenses
8 years for non-violent violations of the terrorism-associated statutes

http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/statute-of-limitations-federal-vs-state-crimes

So in this instance, it appears that 5 years is the statute of limitations because I don't see any of those exceptions applying here.

But, your statement is generally true for civil liability unless it was something that should have been discovered with reasonable diligence. However, PSA does have a buy-back policy, which should be the easiest avenue for recovery.

I am not a lawyer so everything I am about to say is purely from an ignorant bystander with questions.

I am sure $50K+ cards don't go through the regular channels and there is not a run of the mill grader looking at it purely for insurance purposes. So I don't see how these cards were graded without knowing exactly who they were doing it for.

The investigation I am talking about is if they were knowingly grading cards that shouldn't have been(or not given a grade above Authentic) for their own financial gain. If they indeed were knowingly helping Mastro and Co. I am sure they weren't doing it purely to gain more business but rather they were enjoying other financial gains.

IF PSA is found to have been knowingly grading cards for others to help with financial gain or in anyway boost the company's financial statements wouldn't, as a Publicly Traded Company, they fall under the SEC? Isn't there a Statute of Limitations similar to what Leon brought up in SEC cases?

You mentioned the refund policy, but as was shown with the (s)Nodgrass Cycle they wouldn't return it for the original buyer of that card and he was stuck with a card everyone knew was a fraud but that PSA wouldn't do anything about, so I don't think they could stand behind that "guarantee" if this does play out.

[turtleguy64]

Exactly,it looked like Legendary trolled mom and pop card shops to try and come up with something for this auction which just ended.Pinholes ?Inked ?How the mighty have fallen.

[turtleguy64]

anyone remember the touchy -feely family essay/photo session Orlando did for Doug in an issue of PSA guide a few years back.So what were the fruits of that relationship and how it affected cards coming from Legendary to PSA for the grading process ?

[CMIZ5290]

Meanwhile, Joe and Doug keep chugging along....Proof??? Jeff L., what's your take??

[calvindog]

Kevin, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[turtleguy64]

Jeff,nothing lately on the Doug Allen sentencing.think his attorney is stalling the system ?

[ullmandds]

i realize it's kinda late in the game...but is there any way to deduce whether I(anyone) was ripped off in a legendary auction?

[turtleguy64]

that might be hard to discover.a bigger question,with a major void at the top,are you willing to consign to this auction company.Halloween is right around the corner and the major players of Legendary already have their costumes waiting for them : zebra outfits.