Vintage Set Group Break Idea! Input Needed!

[autocentral]

Hey guys,
My name is Nick for those of you who don't know me. I'm an approved group break host on Blowoutcards forums and host a variety of breaks from cards to memorabilia products. I've bought a good amount of cards on this site and I think we have the strongest vintage card collecting presence of any forum, so I thought a vintage set group break would be an awesome new addition to the site.

Leon & I discussed the possibility of doing a vintage group break but we need your input on a possible set to break. So far we really like the idea of doing a 1955 Topps Set with the main cards of the 206 card set being the Roberto Clemente Rookie, Sandy Koufax Rookie, & Harmon Killebrew Rookie. Let me know how you feel about this and Leon & I will discuss it from there.

I know a lot of you already know the format and how these work. But for those of you who are unfamiliar with the idea here is an example of how it works using the Topps 1955 set

*JUST AN EXAMPLE*
-Set: 1955 Topps
-Number of Cards: 206 (Each card represents a group break spot)
-Spot price breakdown example:
$4,000/206=$19.40
$19.40 + $4.00 Shipping & Supplies + $1.00 Paypal Fees=$24.40 per card/spot
-Once all 206 spots are filled and paid for. A random done live via ustream webcam will take place to decide what card you end up with. For instance, if you receive spot #164 in the random you receive card number #164, which in this case is the Roberto Clemente Rookie Card.
*JUST AN EXAMPLE*

Leon & I would love to know what you guys think. Leon has agreed to front the money for the set we decide, but keep in mind we do have a budget. Condition of the set has yet to be determined. But the estimated pin point as of now would probably range from VG to EX-MT (PSA 3-6). Again condition depends on what is available and at what price. I will host the break meaning that I will handle all the logistics of the break including keeping track of payments, packaging the cards, and shipping the cards.

*COMMENTS, QUESTIONS, CONCERNS: FEEL FREE TO POST ON THE THREAD OR SEND ME A MESSAGE*

[ZachS]

Depending on condition I'd be open to purchasing a few spots. I'm working on a 55 set but I'm trying to keep it around 5 or above. Are we talking graded or raw and what kind of condition?

[autocentral]

Depending on condition I'd be open to purchasing a few spots. I'm working on a 55 set but I'm trying to keep it around 5 or above. Are we talking graded or raw and what kind of condition?

For sure the main cards will be graded thats a guarantee. The whole thing relies on what set is available to us and at what price. My guess is for the first run group break the cards will range from 3-6 in grade, so VG to EX-MT. (Just an estimate)

Thanks for the comment and support.
Nick

[drazz5]

Sounds like a great idea

[autocentral]

Sounds like a great idea

Thanks for the comment and support.

Nick

[Mountaineer1999]

I'm in.... Sounds like fun and 55 seems like as good a choice as any.

[autocentral]

I'm in.... Sounds like fun.

Thanks for the comment and support. These are really fun and a great way to bring the forum community together.

Nick

[ullmandds]

i have no interest in this...as I collect mainly pre war cards...not pre vietnam!

[mrvster]

but I only collect T206 and OJs!:)

[bobbyw8469]

How random is the number generator?

[autocentral]

How random is the number generator?

Random.org has a random list generator. I will broadcast the random live and run the generator 5 times.

Thanks for the question,
Nick

[autocentral]

but I only collect T206 and OJs!:)

We may do a pre-war set/partial set later but this first break is a test run to see interest levels and what people would be interested in doing.

Thanks for the input,
Nick

[jhs5120]

Will we split up the exact cost of the set?

Or is there a premium we all are paying to someone?

[autocentral]

i have no interest in this...as I collect mainly pre war cards...not pre vietnam!

We might do pre-war cards in another installment, this is really the first run so we want to see exactly where we stand especially interest wise.

Thanks,
Nick

[autocentral]

Will we split up the exact cost of the set?

Or is there a premium we all are paying to someone?

There is a premium due to the time and effort that goes into putting all this together. Leon & I agreed to split that premium 50/50. We are trying to be as transparent as possible. We are not going to charge ridiculous premium charges but rather something that we think is fair.

Thanks for the question,
Nick

[vintagetoppsguy]

Personally, I like the idea and I would be in for a few spots.

[autocentral]

Personally, I like the idea and I would be in for a few spots.

Thanks for the input and support,
Nick

[Mdmtx]

I would buy a few spots.

[autocentral]

I would buy a few spots.

Thanks for the comment and support!

-Nick

[wolf441]

I think it's a great idea. I've always liked the 1956 and 1960 Topps sets. What about 1941 Playball?

[Matvoo]

I was about to post a thread on here and blowout about a prewar group break idea. If you are going to do a pre war set in the future please let me know

[Rich Klein]

I love the idea --- please keep me informed.

And if you want to do this at the end of the month -- I have a place where this can be done publicly. Leon, are you game for doing this at the local show I coordinate :o

[bobbyw8469]

I am interested. Not sure what you mean that numbers are drawn 5 times. Does that mean that the first 4 draws don't count?

[soccersaver97]

I am interested. Not sure what you mean that numbers are drawn 5 times. Does that mean that the first 4 draws don't count?

Yea. He means the list will be randomized 5 times and whatever shows up the 5th time is the final list that will be matched up to the card numbers.

[The Nasty Nati]

I'd throw down for a spot or two. I think this is a great idea! I like watching group breaks, but personally I don't care about owning the glitzy new cards of today...however a vintage group break sounds like a lot of fun!

[conor912]

I'm not much of a gambling man, so I'd be out.....though I'd certainly be interested in watching the drawing.

[veleno45]

I have little interest in anything other than pre-war, but I would probably buy a spot just for the gambler in me.

[Econteachert205]

I like the idea, filling that many spaces might be a challenge, what time horizon would sign ups exist in?

[bobbyw8469]

Now, would you actually show the cards and who got what one at a time, or would you email everyone the list and jsut let them see the number and player they got?

[JollyElm]

This is definitely a cool idea. Can you give an estimate of what a slot would cost? That would certainly help a lot of people decide if they would be in or out.

[ocjack]

If I'm the only one to have this question, please feel free to delete this post.

But can someone explain what is going on? I've never heard of group breaks.

Thanks.

[ZachS]

If I'm the only one to have this question, please feel free to delete this post.

But can someone explain what is going on? I've never heard of group breaks.

Thanks.

Using the example of the 1955 Topps set there are 206 cards total in the set... that means 206 slots available for sale.

There is a set price per slot and you can buy multiple slots.

Let's say you buy 5 slots at $25 per slot ($125 total). Your name will be put in the group 5 times (once per slot).

All names go into a randomizer... that's a program that will randomly put each name next to a number (in this case 1-206)

You will end up with 5 numbers between 1 and 206 selected w/ the randomizer program.

For example the randomizer puts your name next to numbers 11, 32, 47, 138, 198 in which case you'd get Fain, McGhee, Aaron, Hebert, and Berra.

That means you would end up with those card numbers from the set.

You could end up with 4 commons and a HOFer and make out pretty well or you could end spending $125 for 5 commons... it's all a gamble.

That's about as far as I can break it down without drawing pictures. Hopefully it makes sense.

[brewing]

If multiple slots were purchased, would shipping be combined?

[ocjack]

@ZackS

Thanks. That explained it very well. Appreciate your taking the time.

[autocentral]

Now, would you actually show the cards and who got what one at a time, or would you email everyone the list and jsut let them see the number and player they got?

I would slowly scroll down the list so you can see your name on the random as well as make the video public on my ustream so you can watch it over if you wish. Also, Random.org has the time the random took place so you can use that as a reference as well.

-Nick

[mattsey9]

Interested in a spot.

[autocentral]

If multiple slots were purchased, would shipping be combined?

Shipping would be combined if you have multiple spots. Also there will be some discounts depending on how many spots you buy. But that will be determined once we figure out the monetary dynamics of the break.

-Nick

[autocentral]

Using the example of the 1955 Topps set there are 206 cards total in the set... that means 206 slots available for sale.

There is a set price per slot and you can buy multiple slots.

Let's say you buy 5 slots at $25 per slot ($125 total). Your name will be put in the group 5 times (once per slot).

All names go into a randomizer... that's a program that will randomly put each name next to a number (in this case 1-206)

You will end up with 5 numbers between 1 and 206 selected w/ the randomizer program.

For example the randomizer puts your name next to numbers 11, 32, 47, 138, 198 in which case you'd get Fain, McGhee, Aaron, Hebert, and Berra.

That means you would end up with those card numbers from the set.

You could end up with 4 commons and a HOFer and make out pretty well or you could end spending $125 for 5 commons... it's all a gamble.

That's about as far as I can break it down without drawing pictures. Hopefully it makes sense.

Thank you for the help in explaining the concept. I really appreciate it.

-Nick

[autocentral]

I was about to post a thread on here and blowout about a prewar group break idea. If you are going to do a pre war set in the future please let me know

We are definitely in discussions about doing a pre war set in the future. You will definitely hear about it if we do.

Thanks,
-Nick

[autocentral]

This is definitely a cool idea. Can you give an estimate of what a slot would cost? That would certainly help a lot of people decide if they would be in or out.

At this time I cannot estimate an exact price on exactly what each break slot would cost. That will be decided sometime in the near future when we obtain the set. Most of these breaks will have a lot of spots so no need to worry about figuring out if you can join now. You will definitely have time to decide once the break if officially posted.

-Nick

[autocentral]

I'd like to everyone who posted on this thread. Thank you for all the support and questions. I've tried to answer all the questions and I'm very gracious to those who took the time to answer some for me.


-Nick

[autocentral]

I like the idea, filling that many spaces might be a challenge, what time horizon would sign ups exist in?

Unsure of the time horizon but sometimes members take multiple spots so it fills it up much quicker. 206 is a lot of spots but with these Topps sets usually the more cards equals the lower the spot price will be. Pre-war set prices since some have few cards spot price is quite high. For now this is a brainstorm, concern, question thread. Just trying to poll everyone see how they feel. I know we have a lot of pre-war collectors so Im trying to weigh every possible option available to us.

-Nick

[Jobu]

I have not heard of this before but think it is a cool idea.

[ZenPop]

I'd love to be part of it... I could only afford 1 or 2 slots, but it sounds like an awesome idea!

Cheers!

[toledo_mudhen]

I'd be in for a spot or 2 - always interested in Pre-War Cards (Vietnam)

[Leon]

Hey guys
Nick approached me with this idea and it sounded like it could be something to keep our forum current and energized. I don't think anything is set in stone yet so any suggestions and/or feedback is appreciated. The '55 set seemed good because of it's size and star amount but i am also open to thinking about other sets, maybe pre-war? Or maybe the first one is the '55 and we see how it goes. I am not sure we can fill over 200 slots. Keep the feedback coming and thanks to Nick for offering to handle it. Believe me guys, this is all Greek to me too!!

[oldjudge]

Nick--What's in this for you?

[Buythatcard]

I'm in. Sounds like a fun idea.

[roce4e52]

I would take a spot or 5 depending on price. Better odds than the lottery.
Bill D.

[autocentral]

Nick--What's in this for you?

Im doing this because I love the hobby. As I previously stated in another answer to a question there is a premium amount to run the break which me and Leon will split 50/50. A lot of work goes into putting these breaks together, making them run smoothly, packaging items, and sending out the items.

Thanks for your questions,
-Nick

[autocentral]

I would take a spot or 5 depending on price. Better odds than the lottery.
Bill D.

Awesome. Definitely better odds than the lottery because at least in these you always end up with something.

Thanks for the support,
-Nick

[autocentral]

Hey guys
Nick approached me with this idea and it sounded like it could be something to keep our forum current and energized. I don't think anything is set in stone yet so any suggestions and/or feedback is appreciated. The '55 set seemed good because of it's size and star amount but i am also open to thinking about other sets, maybe pre-war? Or maybe the first one is the '55 and we see how it goes. I am not sure we can fill over 200 slots. Keep the feedback coming and thanks to Nick for offering to handle it. Believe me guys, this is all Greek to me too!!

As Leon stated keep those suggestions and feedback coming. We really appreciate and want to run something you guys will enjoy.

-Nick

[ZenPop]

I love these kind of things... and it's always kind of a dream of mine to find a box of really old cards and do a break... this is about as close as I'll ever get to something like that... and as was mentioned before... better than Vegas, because everyone will get something... The '55 set seems a good bet... great design... a lot of excellent players... (anything from 1956 and earlier interests me). I have a couple of friends who (while not on the forum) would be interested in this (is that allowed?). ...so I think, Leon, there's a good chance of selling all the slots. Keep us posted!

[roce4e52]

If you ran 10 random number scans you could publish the results on Friday and tie the chosen numbers with the total number of runs scored on Sunday. Like football boards. That way we could spend Monday cursing or praising the Yankee, Dodger or Red Sox (others Sunday night teams too possibly) player that scored or allowed the run that moved you from Clemente to Finigan.
Bill D

[thecatspajamas]

Random.org has a random list generator. I will broadcast the random live and run the generator 5 times.

Thanks for the question,
Nick

Not trying to poopoo anything, but what is the point of running the random list generator 5 times rather than just once? It's not like shuffling a deck of cards where things only get sorta randomized the first time. Are the extra 4 randomizations just to make the skeptics feel better?

(I'm not trying to be a smart alec here. I just really don't understand the point of randomizing multiple times.)

[nebboy]

If and when a prewar break happened I'd be in.

[wolf441]

I really think this is a great idea (that's the degenerate gambler in me!). Here are some sets for thought, including a Pre-WWI:

T201 - 50 cards
1941 Playball - 72 Cards
1948 Bowman - 48 cards
1955 Topps

[BlueSky]

It sounds like must watch TV as it's streamed live. I believe the corresponding thread chatter will be great to follow.

I would be interested in a pre-war break.

[Leerob538]

I like the idea, I am in for a spot or 2.

Mr. Lee

[autocentral]

Not trying to poopoo anything, but what is the point of running the random list generator 5 times rather than just once? It's not like shuffling a deck of cards where things only get sorta randomized the first time. Are the extra 4 randomizations just to make the skeptics feel better?

(I'm not trying to be a smart alec here. I just really don't understand the point of randomizing multiple times.)

The running the random generator is to make skeptics feel better and provide more excitement to the people watching live. I feel one-three randoms are good if you have about 5-10 people in the break, anything past that 5 is usually the best way to avoid anyone complaining or being skeptical.

-Nick

[autocentral]

Nick--What's in this for you?

As I stated in a previous answer to a question. There is a premium charge added to the break which Leon & I are splitting 50/50. A lot of time goes into planning and actually doing the break.

I also do this because I love the hobby. I collect vintage cards and thought it would be a great way to bring our community together.

-Nick

[autocentral]

I love these kind of things... and it's always kind of a dream of mine to find a box of really old cards and do a break... this is about as close as I'll ever get to something like that... and as was mentioned before... better than Vegas, because everyone will get something... The '55 set seems a good bet... great design... a lot of excellent players... (anything from 1956 and earlier interests me). I have a couple of friends who (while not on the forum) would be interested in this (is that allowed?). ...so I think, Leon, there's a good chance of selling all the slots. Keep us posted!

PM Sent.


Thanks for the feedback,
-Nick

[Rich Klein]

Actually and this is a MUST when it comes to doing a case break or something such as this is that the whole drawing of the numbers must be televised on a site such as Breakers.TV, the reason is you do not want ANY person with a hint of a complaint about the final decision.

Rich

[vintagetoppsguy]

There are a lot of questions being asked and comments being made that have ALREADY been addressed. Please read the enitre thread, folks.

[mattsey9]

Any thoughts on when this will launch? I'm heading to the Caribbean for the next eight days, but I don't wanthink to miss out.

[peterose4hof]

Would you be allowing B/S/T after the random? This is one of my favorite parts about these types of breaks and I'm sure others would love the chance to buy/sell unwanted cards and/or make trades.

Also, as T206 crazy as this board is, you could whip everyone into an absolute frenzy doing a near set-break of T206s. If you can make this happen it will be the most viewed and responded to thread in net54 history. Just sayin!

[Rich Klein]

There are a lot of questions being asked and comments being made that have ALREADY been addressed. Please read the enitre thread, folks.

Sorry the line about being on TV line while the randomater was gong was missed on my part -- I saw that on the third re-read

[Matvoo]

Would you be allowing B/S/T after the random? This is one of my favorite parts about these types of breaks and I'm sure others would love the chance to buy/sell unwanted cards and/or make trades.

Also, as T206 crazy as this board is, you could whip everyone into an absolute frenzy doing a near set-break of T206s. If you can make this happen it will be the most viewed and responded to thread in net54 history. Just sayin!

This get a partial set of t206 set

[thecatspajamas]

The running the random generator is to make skeptics feel better and provide more excitement to the people watching live. I feel one-three randoms are good if you have about 5-10 people in the break, anything past that 5 is usually the best way to avoid anyone complaining or being skeptical.

-Nick

Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation and personal experience. Good luck!

[autocentral]

Any thoughts on when this will launch? I'm heading to the Caribbean for the next eight days, but I don't wanthink to miss out.

Not sure when the break will launch but an email blast will probably be sent out. I think that would be the best way to keep everyone informed about what is going on. Leon and many others are busy at the national so more information will come once the national is over.

Nick

[autocentral]

Would you be allowing B/S/T after the random? This is one of my favorite parts about these types of breaks and I'm sure others would love the chance to buy/sell unwanted cards and/or make trades.

Also, as T206 crazy as this board is, you could whip everyone into an absolute frenzy doing a near set-break of T206s. If you can make this happen it will be the most viewed and responded to thread in net54 history. Just sayin!

Yes buying/selling/trading will be allowed after the break for sure. Thanks for your question.

As for the T206 near set break I guess only time and interest will tell. The sky is the limit with these breaks. Hopefully one day we reach that limit.

Thanks,
Nick

[autocentral]

Actually and this is a MUST when it comes to doing a case break or something such as this is that the whole drawing of the numbers must be televised on a site such as Breakers.TV, the reason is you do not want ANY person with a hint of a complaint about the final decision.

Rich

Exactly. Everything has to done a specific way so no one questions the final results of the break.

Thanks for the comment Rich,
Nick

[autocentral]

Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation and personal experience. Good luck!

Thanks for the support,
Nick

[curtis-cards]

I'd be in for a spot or two. Sounds like fun!

[Rich Klein]

Exactly. Everything has to done a specific way so no one questions the final results of the break.

Thanks for the comment Rich,
Nick

Personally I think this concept is worthy of one of my columns --- I'm going to write this and pitch to my editor (who is a valued Net54 advertiser)

[autocentral]

Personally I think this concept is worthy of one of my columns --- I'm going to write this and pitch to my editor (who is a valued Net54 advertiser)

Wow awesome! Thank you Rich, I really appreciate it.

Nick

[oldjudge]

"As I stated in a previous answer to a question. There is a premium charge added to the break which Leon & I are splitting 50/50. A lot of time goes into planning and actually doing the break."

I realize you are making something. What I am asking is what percentage of the set's purchase price are you and Leon making? Will the cost of the set be disclosed?

[autocentral]

"As I stated in a previous answer to a question. There is a premium charge added to the break which Leon & I are splitting 50/50. A lot of time goes into planning and actually doing the break."

I realize you are making something. What I am asking is what percentage of the set's purchase price are you and Leon making? Will the cost of the set be disclosed?

Yes these cost of the set will probably be disclosed as Leon & I are trying to be as transparent as possible with these breaks.

Thanks,
Nick

[wolf441]

Hi Nick,

I think it's a great idea and I don't think you'll have any trouble filling up the 200 or so slots.

Best of luck and keep us informed as I will certainly be in for a few slots.

Steve

[Texxxx]

I would be in for a couple of slots. I am going to Vegas in a week so it might depend what happens there. :D

[peterose4hof]

"As I stated in a previous answer to a question. There is a premium charge added to the break which Leon & I are splitting 50/50. A lot of time goes into planning and actually doing the break."

I realize you are making something. What I am asking is what percentage of the set's purchase price are you and Leon making? Will the cost of the set be disclosed?

I have been involved in more than a hundred breaks the past handful of years and I can say without pause that the markup a breaker typically makes is nominal. It's truly a labor of love, not a big payday.

[autocentral]

I have been involved in more than a hundred breaks the past handful of years and I can say without pause that the markup a breaker typically makes is nominal. It's truly a labor of love, not a big payday.

It definitely is not a big payday more work and headaches than anything. I really love doing group breaks, they are fun and get people with common interest together. Leon & I felt this would be a great addition to the site and hopefully generates new members.

Thank you for the support,
Nick

[autocentral]

Hi Nick,

I think it's a great idea and I don't think you'll have any trouble filling up the 200 or so slots.

Best of luck and keep us informed as I will certainly be in for a few slots.

Steve

Thanks for the support Steve,
Nick

[autocentral]

I would be in for a couple of slots. I am going to Vegas in a week so it might depend what happens there. :D

Good luck in Vegas! Should be a fun time.

Thanks for the support,
Nick

[Eric72]

For those who may have an interest, here is a Frequency Distribution, by "book value," of the 1955 Topps Baseball set.

I am not offering an opinion here...just laying out the "odds."

Best regards,

Eric

[oldjudge]

Eric--that's great info, but you wonder, if people are willing to play a game where they have no idea what the house take is, why they would care what the expected value of a pick it.

[t206trader]

Where will this set come from? Are you acquiring a large swath and purchasing other cards individually? I think the concern oldjudge is making is that without seeing what your cost is we really wouldn't have any idea whether some of us would be in or not. What if we aren't able to acquire a Clemente at a reasonable cost? Do we buy one outside of our price just to do it or do we wait? The reason group box breaks work so well is because it's easy to acquire the product at a set price. There's really no guessing to it. I'm concerned that there are too many variables beyond our control for this to work unless you find someone selling an entire set.

[Eric72]

Eric--that's great info, but you wonder, if people are willing to play a game where they have no idea what the house take is, why they would care what the expected value of a pick it.

It's an important part of the equation...just figured I would throw it out there.

Best regards,

Eric

[wolf441]

Where will this set come from? Are you acquiring a large swath and purchasing other cards individually? I think the concern oldjudge is making is that without seeing what your cost is we really wouldn't have any idea whether some of us would be in or not. What if we aren't able to acquire a Clemente at a reasonable cost? Do we buy one outside of our price just to do it or do we wait? The reason group box breaks work so well is because it's easy to acquire the product at a set price. There's really no guessing to it. I'm concerned that there are too many variables beyond our control for this to work unless you find someone selling an entire set.

You find someone selling an entire set. For 1955 Topps, that shouldn't be too hard.

[oldjudge]

Eric--if you believe these values are representative of the value of what is being purchased then the set should cost $13,369 (using mid-points) and a pick should be worth $64.90 with no house take. What I wonder is, with these numbers, how much would Nick and Leon charge per pick. If they charge $70, which doesn't seem like a big premium, they are making almost 10% which translates to over $1000.
And don't forget shipping.

[t206trader]

You find someone selling an entire set. For 1955 Topps, that shouldn't be too hard.

Right, but to meet our budget and all the aforementioned things could be tricky. Point is it's not as easy as it sounds.

[Eric72]

Eric--if you believe these values are representative of the value of what is being purchased

Of course, condition is important...perhaps critical...in determining value.

the set should cost $13,369

I believe a complete set can be purchased for quite a bit less than this. However, again, condition will certainly come into play. The "book value" (from the same Beckett price guide) lists the complete 206 card set, in Near Mint condition, at $8,000.

a pick should be worth $64.90

I will defer to others (Nick and Leon, especially) on how much a pick should be worth; however, that does seem a bit high to me for this particular set break. Unless, of course, the cards are all graded and uniformly in NM or better condition. In which case, the chance of landing one of the better cards in the set comes into play.

they are making almost 10%...And don't forget shipping.

Percentage-wise, that seems fair to me.

Just my two cents on the topic.

Best regards,

Eric

[autocentral]

Right, but to meet our budget and all the aforementioned things could be tricky. Point is it's not as easy as it sounds.

We are definitely finding someone with a complete 1955 Topps Set. Finding a set with our budget and standards should not be too hard to find.

Thanks for the comment,
-Nick

[t206trader]

I might be in for a spot depending on the final price point. I would be very interested in participating in a smaller prewar set also.

[autocentral]

Eric--that's great info, but you wonder, if people are willing to play a game where they have no idea what the house take is, why they would care what the expected value of a pick it.

As previously stated in multiple answers to questions. Leon & I are trying to be as transparent as possible. The amount we purchase the set for will be disclosed, if you have a problem with the premium charge we decide to charge don't join. It is really as simple as that. I promise you this, it definitely won't be near the premium blowoutcards previously charged for the both times they have ran a break like this. They must have had close to 30% premium charge, that my guess.

As for trying to determine a price for a spot, that remains to be seen but $65 is definitely not an accurate prediction. I understand people want all the answers to their questions at this time like a price per spot, a premium charge, etc. but we are just in the starting phases of setting this up so we can't provide that info until we finally post the official thread where people can claim spots and actually join the break.

Thanks,
-Nick

[Eric72]

As previously stated in multiple answers to questions. Leon & I are trying to be as transparent as possible. The amount we purchase the set for will be disclosed, if you have a problem with the premium charge we decide to charge don't join. It is really as simple as that. I promise you this, it definitely won't be near the premium blowoutcards previously charged for the both times they have run a break like this. They must have had close to 30% premium charge.

As for trying to determine a price for a spot, that remains to be seen but $65 is definitely not an accurate prediction. I understand people want all the answers to their questions at this time like a price per spot, a premium charge, etc. but we are just in the starting phases of setting this up so we can't provide that info until we finally post the official thread where people can claim spots and actually join the break.

Thanks,
-Nick

Nick,

At risk of offending, this reply does not seem congruent with a scholarly debate on the topic. I believe Net54 is supporting you on the idea of a 1955 Topps set break.

We simply want all of the details before signing on.

Best regards,

Eric

[autocentral]

Nick,

At risk of offending, this reply does not seem congruent with a scholarly debate on the topic. I believe Net54 is supporting you on the idea of a 1955 Topps set break.

We simply want all of the details before signing on.

Best regards,

Eric

No offense taken.

I know the community is supporting me and Im really appreciative of all the support. I know everyone wants to have all the details now but the truth is we don't have all the information to answer everyone's question. Im trying to answer every question as best as I can with the information I have at this time.

I promise, everyone will have time once all the information is officially posted on a new formal thread to sign in on the break if they wish. That new thread will hopefully provide all the information needed for members to decide if they want to join.

Thanks,
-Nick

[ZenPop]

In the event of many people participating, and in the interest of fairness, should all parties get one card and only then open it up to multiple slots on a first come, first served basis?

Also: If this works well (which I think it surely will) please consider these beautiful sets:

'50, '51, '52 Bowman
'52, '53, '54 Topps
'41 Playball
'33, '34 Goudey
'34 Diamond Stars
...and... of course... the t206 or other tobacco cards. (The Cracker jacks would be awesome... but, much like the tobacco cards, way out of my price range... but it would be fun to watch!)

[autocentral]

In the event of many people participating, and in the interest of fairness, should all parties get one card and only then open it up to multiple slots on a first come, first served basis?

Also: If this works well (which I think it surely will) please consider these beautiful sets:

'50, '51, '52 Bowman
'52, '53, '54 Topps
'41 Playball
'33, '34 Goudey
'34 Diamond Stars
...and... of course... the t206 or other tobacco cards. (The Cracker jacks would be awesome... but, much like the tobacco cards, way out of my price range... but it would be fun to watch!)

I think with the 206 spots in the 1955 Topps set there will definitely be enough spots for people to take as many spots as they want. Everyone will definitely have a shot at spots. For possible future breaks that have less spots like pre-war sets for example limiting the number of spots you can buy could definitely be a possibility. Thanks for providing possible suggestions for future breaks.

Thank you for your post,
-Nick

[oldjudge]

Not everyone is supporting you. I would support this if the net proceeds were benefiting a charity. As a profit making scheme I am against this. I would be interested if one of the lawyers on the board could chime in as to the legality if this.

[autocentral]

Not everyone is supporting you. I would support this if the net proceeds were benefiting a charity. As a profit making scheme I am against this. I would be interested if one of the lawyers on the board could chime in as to the legality if this.

Thank for your input and Im sorry you feel that way.

-Nick

[ZenPop]

Not everyone is supporting you. I would support this if the net proceeds were benefiting a charity. As a profit making scheme I am against this. I would be interested if one of the lawyers on the board could chime in as to the legality if this.

"legality"? Really?

People, with full knowledge of how it works, decides to join this... and you turn to lawyers? Are you being forced to join at knife point?

Why don't you go after all fantasy leagues and personal bets first (you know... where most people who pay in get ZERO out of it.) and then, when that's all cleaned up, you can go after this small and fun venture... or better yet... get a grip. ...jeez.

[Leon]

Not everyone is supporting you. I would support this if the net proceeds were benefiting a charity. As a profit making scheme I am against this. I would be interested if one of the lawyers on the board could chime in as to the legality if this.

Jay,
I think the total take I have heard is about 10% net. I think it would be good for the board because it would increase activity. I will give 100% of my proceeds to a local dog rescue of some kind and report on it. I don't think it's illegal if we aren't doing anything wrong and every thing is done with transparency. If anyone doesn't want to play they don't have to. Nothing is set in stone yet including doing it. I wanted to have a discussion and go from there.....btw, I have no clue about any breaks because I never have been involved in them but I think our cost should be made public...no issue.

[wolf441]

Jay,
I think the total take I have heard is about 10% net. I think it would be good for the board because it would increase activity. I will give 100% of my proceeds to a local dog rescue of some kind and report on it. I don't think it's illegal if we aren't doing anything wrong and every thing is done with transparency. If anyone doesn't want to play they don't have to. Nothing is set in stone yet including doing it. I wanted to have a discussion and go from there.....btw, I have no clue about any breaks because I never have been involved in them but I think our cost should be made public...no issue.

+100. If you don't want to participate, you certainly don't have to. As for me....I want to play!!!

[stlcardsfan]

Great idea, I'm in!

[SMPEP]

I don't get it. Why would it be illegal? You can sell your cards on Ebay for any price you determine. You could set up this exact system and sell it there (in fact someone did something like this about 5 years ago).

Heck, when I read this thread my first thought was ... IF I decide to sell any of the sets I own (not planning to right now), this would be a fun/efficient way to do it (versus listing cards individually or waiting for someone with deep enough pockets who needed my set showing up).

And even if they did make a profit ... good for them! Have you never sold a card at a profit before? What would be illegal about selling a card for a profit?

As far as I'm concerned, Leon and Nick desreve a profit if they do it ... because they put in the money and work. And Leon, as far as I'm concerned you would not need to donate your profit to charity (unless you wanted to of course).

Cheers,
Patrick

[wolf441]

I don't get it. Why would it be illegal? You can sell your cards on Ebay for any price you determine. You could set up this exact system and sell it there (in fact someone did something like this about 5 years ago).

Cheers,
Patrick

They do this on ebay literally every day with high priced modern box/case breaks. On most of them, you bid on a particular team and if there are any "hits" in the box/case for that team, you get the card(s).

[Mountaineer1999]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I say, let's do this.

[refz]

If all goes well for the trial run, id be game for a pre-war set or partial. 1955 topps set is nice safe start but does not fancy me one bit.

[ZenPop]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I say, let's do this.

awesome.

[autocentral]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I say, let's do this.

Thanks for the support lol!

-Nick

[ktimm]

I think it would be great. Learning about and possibly starting to collect a new set, at least for myself. Definitely interested.

[kamikidEFFL]

Not a bad idea but myself would not be interested. It's a nice set for sure but I feel ya get better outcome for something more pre-war. That's what most if these guys collect it seems. Best of luck

[Danny Smith]

Awesome idea. I'm in.

[Sean1125]

For transparency I believe instead of the word 'premium' you should disclose fully what the set cost and what you stand to make.

[AMBST95]

I am definitely interested. I've done team box breaks in the past and they are a lot of fun, particularly if everyone is communicating via chat because you can cheer on and root against each other when the hits come. A chance for a Koufax, Clemente, or Killebrew rookie for a nominal cost would be well worth it.

The proposed method of running the generator with our buy in spots and then depending on where you finish on the list matches the card number is definitely less dramatic. If the cards could be revealed one at a time, it would build anticipation. With a box break, there's already some variability within the box so you don't know when the hit is coming. It'd be nice if we randomized the cards along with the buy in spots so you don't know when the hit is coming. I know it's more work, but makes for a fun online session, which is the point of the project, per Leon.

Also, not sure about your generator that you're using but there are 4 cards missing from the 55 set, so the random generator would need to know to exclude those numbers if trying to coincide each number in the generator with a card number as originally proposed.

[frankbmd]

If anyone is having wet dreams hoping to win the Harry Agganis RC, contact me directly if you are disappointed with the card you win before seeking professional help.:eek:

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/frankbmd/post-war-baseball/9202/1955-topps-agganis

[gregr2]

I'll participate, could be fun!

[autocentral]

For transparency I believe instead of the word 'premium' you should disclose fully what the set cost and what you stand to make.

That will be disclosed. Not to worry.

Thanks for the comment,
-Nick

[autocentral]

I am definitely interested. I've done team box breaks in the past and they are a lot of fun, particularly if everyone is communicating via chat because you can cheer on and root against each other when the hits come. A chance for a Koufax, Clemente, or Killebrew rookie for a nominal cost would be well worth it.

The proposed method of running the generator with our buy in spots and then depending on where you finish on the list matches the card number is definitely less dramatic. If the cards could be revealed one at a time, it would build anticipation. With a box break, there's already some variability within the box so you don't know when the hit is coming. It'd be nice if we randomized the cards along with the buy in spots so you don't know when the hit is coming. I know it's more work, but makes for a fun online session, which is the point of the project, per Leon.

Also, not sure about your generator that you're using but there are 4 cards missing from the 55 set, so the random generator would need to know to exclude those numbers if trying to coincide each number in the generator with a card number as originally proposed.

Thanks for the input. We will definitely consider revealing the cards one by one to build anticipation.

-Nick

[Paul S]

Don't forget that although the last card in the 55T set is #210 (Snider), four cards were never issued: 175, 186, 203 & 209.

[mmier118]

As far as increasing interest/membership goes I mostly lurk on these boards, sometimes using the buy/sell board and I would most likely participate in a group break and the corresponding discussions. I think something like this would increase the number of members actively participating in the board and possibly even bring over new members. These breaks are very popular for modern collectors and I think there is a more than fair chance that a break like this could help net54 gain new members and expose some modern collectors to the joys of collecting something more vintage.

[slidekellyslide]

Over on the memorabilia side of the board we held a raffle for a Graig Kreindler original painting....I don't know the legality of something like that, nor do I really care...it was fun knowing I had a chance, and when I didn't win it was nice to know that I helped contribute to someone getting their very own Graig "Freaking" Kreindler original :D

I don't think I would participate in this one as I have no interest in this set, but it will be fun to watch it all unfold.

[Lordstan]

It seems that those that are "skeptical" want answers now that they don't have yet. They can't know the costs of each entry until they figure out the cost of the set, the mailing costs, and whatever percentage they are getting for all the time and labor to run it. I don't see how difficult this is to grasp. To go one step further, Nick and Leon have committed to letting everyone know how much the set costs and how much their "fees" will be. While I don't know Nick, I do believe Leon's reputation is such, that his word should be good enough for everyone here.

I would think it's fairly obvious that details like, which set, in which grade, for how much per chance, makes all the difference in the world on whether any one of us would want to participate. If they get a 1933 Goudey set in PSA 8 and ask for $10 an entry, I'm sure every person on this board, card collector or not, would want an entry. On the other hand, if it's a 1960 Topps set in PSA 3 for $40 an entry, I'm sure very few would be interested.

I took this post as a tool to measure the interest level of the board for this type of activity, not asking for commitments and promises from any one person. In this type of post, I think they are simply looking for a "Yes, I would be interested in participating if I agree to all the final rules/pricing" number of possible participants.

As for me, I may be willing to participate in this type of activity as I did in the Kreindler raffle. I would be more likely to do so for an older set, even if that meant the per entry price is higher. The chance to possibly win a Lou Gehrig card would be pretty exciting for me.

Mark

[deken]

I am in. Sounds like fun.

[Rich Klein]

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/ramblings-sets-next-group-break-idea/

[edhans]

The running the random generator is to make skeptics feel better and provide more excitement to the people watching live. I feel one-three randoms are good if you have about 5-10 people in the break, anything past that 5 is usually the best way to avoid anyone complaining or being skeptical.

-Nick

Maybe you should use your random number generator to generate the number of random number sequences you should generate.

I agree with Jay. there is a clear element of chance here. I wouldn't be prepared to swear that such activity is legal in every state.

[Leon]

It seems that those that are "skeptical" want answers now that they don't have yet. They can't know the costs of each entry until they figure out the cost of the set, the mailing costs, and whatever percentage they are getting for all the time and labor to run it. I don't see how difficult this is to grasp. To go one step further, Nick and Leon have committed to letting everyone know how much the set costs and how much their "fees" will be. While I don't know Nick, I do believe Leon's reputation is such, that his word should be good enough for everyone here.

I would think it's fairly obvious that details like, which set, in which grade, for how much per chance, makes all the difference in the world on whether any one of us would want to participate. If they get a 1933 Goudey set in PSA 8 and ask for $10 an entry, I'm sure every person on this board, card collector or not, would want an entry. On the other hand, if it's a 1960 Topps set in PSA 3 for $40 an entry, I'm sure very few would be interested.

I took this post as a tool to measure the interest level of the board for this type of activity, not asking for commitments and promises from any one person. In this type of post, I think they are simply looking for a "Yes, I would be interested in participating if I agree to all the final rules/pricing" number of possible participants.

As for me, I may be willing to participate in this type of activity as I did in the Kreindler raffle. I would be more likely to do so for an older set, even if that meant the per entry price is higher. The chance to possibly win a Lou Gehrig card would be pretty exciting for me.

Mark

100% correct Mark. I stand by my transparency motto on all of this. I stand by my offer of giving 100% of my proceeds to a dog (or other animal cause) in the North Texas area and will report back on it. I love helping our animal friends and almost nothing makes me happier. Really, the only thing now is to determine what set is best to use. I am not sold on '55 Topps.....as this is a pre-war board (but it could still be the one, I just don't know). I do think Nick needs to get something for all of the work he will put into this so I really want his small take to go to him. This is NOT a money making project. Every single penny will be exposed, cost and sale-wise. There will be some expenses (paypal, shipping etc...) and those will have to be accounted for. I will put up the money for the set and I just want what I put into it back, after all is said and done. I don't want a penny otherwise. Nothing is set in stone. I think this will appeal to a lot of our members and isn't our hobby about having fun?

[bbcard1]

I doubt law enforcement would get their knickers in a knot unless someone really got ticked off and pushed the issue.

As for me, i'd probably play if it were a set I was even casually interested in and the cost seemed reasonable.

[slidekellyslide]

I doubt law enforcement would get their knickers in a knot unless someone really got ticked off and pushed the issue.

As for me, i'd probably play if it were a set I was even casually interested in and the cost seemed reasonable.

While this set break does seem like gambling at least you will come away with something for your money...some will pay more than the card's actual value and some will pay less. I would say this is probably more within the law than a raffle. Hasn't modern card collecting been about gambling for the last decade or so anyway? I rarely visit my local card shop any longer, but when I'm there it's usually adults buying expensive unopened packs hoping for the autograph insert.

[autocentral]

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/ramblings-sets-next-group-break-idea/

Awesome article Rich!

-Nick

[autocentral]

Don't forget that although the last card in the 55T set is #210 (Snider), four cards were never issued: 175, 186, 203 & 209.

Thanks for the post. We will definitely have all this sorted out.

-Nick

[drazz5]

What is the estimated timeline for all this getting put together?

[Leon]

What is the estimated timeline for all this getting put together?

Nick and I need to chat about it.....I don't think it will be in the next week but would think sometime in the next month or so. There are some other details to be worked out...especially exactly what set to use. More details soon...LL

[Rich Klein]

As I said, for a donation to our men's club, I'd be happy to have this event as part of our show on the 31st with Leon running the randomater.

We have plenty of room and I think that would bring some extra excitement to the proceedings.

Plus that would give enough time for the spaces to be filled and if any are available they could be filled at the show on that day.

Rich

[Leon]

As I said, for a donation to our men's club, I'd be happy to have this event as part of our show on the 31st with Leon running the randomater.

We have plenty of room and I think that would bring some extra excitement to the proceedings.

Plus that would give enough time for the spaces to be filled and if any are available they could be filled at the show on that day.

Rich

Thanks for the offer Rich. I will definitely consider it. I know you are easy to work with!! :) I think I am going to start one more thread to get specific feedback on what set to use. Nothing is ruled out or in so far.

[edhans]

This business model is still unclear to me. Is the slot price going to be based on cost, cost plus markup, or "retail" value of the individual cards? If the former, why would anyone lay out $4-8K for a set with virtually no return? If the latter, wouldn't customers be vastly better off in the long run simply assembling their own set by buying in groups and at widely available discounts off single cards?

Also, I don't see the need for any "disclosure". Assuming it's legal, it's just another business venture. Leon and Nick should just set a slot price based on whatever criteria they deem appropriate. If they're able to find enough weak-minded customers who are amused by this chicanery, they should make some money on it. And there's no reason the profits need to be donated to an animal shelter, no matter how much Leon loves dogs. It's no different, really, than bingo, slot machines or roulette. If these activities stimulate you, have fun with it.

[Leon]

This business model is still unclear to me. Is the slot price going to be based on cost, cost plus markup, or "retail" value of the individual cards? If the former, why would anyone lay out $4-8K for a set with virtually no return? If the latter, wouldn't customers be vastly better off in the long run simply assembling their own set by buying in groups and at widely available discounts off single cards?

Also, I don't see the need for any "disclosure". Assuming it's legal, it's just another business venture. Leon and Nick should just set a slot price based on whatever criteria they deem appropriate. If they're able to find enough weak-minded customers who are amused by this chicanery, they should make some money on it. And there's no reason the profits need to be donated to an animal shelter, no matter how much Leon loves dogs. It's no different, really, than bingo, slot machines or roulette. If these activities stimulate you, have fun with it.

In my mind, and if I am sponsoring it, the cost per ticket will be figured starting with the true cost of the set to be "raffled". As an example if it were a $1000 set and there were 50 cards, the cost of the cards would be $20 each. Then there would be a 10% markup making it $22 per card. Then we would only add true, hard expenses on top of that. I would guess another dollar a card. So each card would cost $23. Therefore $1 would go to Nick for running the whole thing and doing all of the work, $1 would go to me for putting out the money and running the board (and I will still donate all of my proceeds as I said) and $1 for expenses......paypal etc.....then also, we would need to add exact shipping to each shipment. But that is it. Not rocket science. And anything short of something like this scenario and I wouldn't be in favor of doing it. As for chicanery, I don't know about that, but it is a form of lottery I guess. And "weak minded" is a bit strong too but I sort of agree about gambling in general. I have done it a dozen times or so and always have a 100-200 limit per day. I get enjoyment from it when I do it and don't stress. It can be fun. Honestly, these group breaks are not something I would generally join in, as buying into and playing. They just aren't my cup 'o tea, but I know some folks really like them.

I should add, this isn't another business venture to me. It is a way to get more people involved on the board. If it were a business venture I would want to make money :).

[kailes2872]

1955 is one of the 4 sets left that I am looking to complete and was planned as a 2015 project.

Since I generally overpay for cards and have zero negotiation skills and ability - paying $25 for an $8 card is something that I do nearly every day in my set building quests. So, for me, paying $25 for a slot will be like buying a common and anything above a common would be gravy:)

What I need to ask Eric Perry about is - what is the tipping point? If I spend $1000 (40 entries) on a $4000 set, do I stand a good percentage chance to get Kourfax or Clemente? Somewhere on my bookshelf is my college stats book and I could probably pull it out and figure the break even point. But, since I am going to buy this set in the coming year anyway, I was wondering what a good number would be. If I somehow spent 1000-2000 and landed both Koufax and Clemente, it would send me on my way to very good value for the set. If I missed on both of them, and got 40 really nice $8 commons, then I will be sleeping in the spare bedroom and apologizing to the MRS.

Regards,
Kevin

[Rich Klein]

Kevin with PSA8 I'd bet your $1K would not end up with just 40 commons.

You can figure out the stars in the set and the rookies and I'd pretty much say if you did not end up with one of the following cards (and I'd say a 20 percent of the set equals one of these stars)

Clemente, Hodges, Snider, Koufax, Killebrew, Berra, T. Wiliams, Aaron. Mays

You buy 40 slots and not get at least ONE key player, then you should never go to Vegas again

[kailes2872]

then you should never go to Vegas again

Under serious consideration after my last, painful trip....:)

[Tabe]

Kevin with PSA8 I'd bet your $1K would not end up with just 40 commons.

You can figure out the stars in the set and the rookies and I'd pretty much say if you did not end up with one of the following cards (and I'd say a 20 percent of the set equals one of these stars)

Clemente, Hodges, Snider, Koufax, Killebrew, Berra, T. Wiliams, Aaron. Mays

You buy 40 slots and not get at least ONE key player, then you should never go to Vegas again
You have an approximately 13.7% chance of not getting one of those 7 guys if you buy 40 slots.

[wolf441]

Seeing the arguments against, I keep coming back to the point, if you don't want to participate, no one is forcing you to. I agree with Leon on the "weak minded" quote (and I like Ed, so no offense taken!!:D). If I have the cash and want to gamble a little bit, I don't see the harm. If I wind up with a couple of commons, oh well. That would just be another aspect of what makes the hobby enjoyable for me.

[Tabe]

Depending on the set and the slot price, I'd probably be in.

[4815162342]

Gentlemen, whatever you decide to do, be careful.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6549319_rules-selling-raffle-tickets.html#page=0

[Leon]

Gentlemen, whatever you decide to, be careful.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6549319_rules-selling-raffle-tickets.html#page=0

To me this is like going 56mph in a 55mph zone. I don't think with what we are doing, and the net amounts, that we will have any worries about all of those rules. If this was big money, maybe, but it's not. And much of the profits are going to charity. I will roll the dice on it, if we get there and decide this is a go....but always good to read caveats and stuff.

[t206trader]

Gentlemen, whatever you decide to do, be careful.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6549319_rules-selling-raffle-tickets.html#page=0

This is not relatable to what is being discussed. Is a crane machine illegal too? This is definitely a game of chance but everyone still wins a prize (unlike a raffle) and also isn't designed to make the people running it money (unlike a raffle). Without a monetary incentive for the person running it the odds of litigation prevailing are slim to none. But as Leon said always good to be fully informed.