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View Full Version : The Actual Top 20 Lifetime HR Leaders (OT)


GregMitch34
07-05-2014, 05:17 PM
I am among those who have always come down hard on PEDs so I did a lifetime HR list if you take the (biggest) cheaters out. (See link below.) Yeah, I know, that even without PEDs a Bonds or McGwire might have made list if he stayed clean but--tough luck.

I'll also note that I really miss the days of olde...going back to my boyhood in latter part of 1950s--when you'd get excited when anyone had about 27 HRs by July 4 (like Abreu today) and have a shot at the Babe or later Roger. Now it's ruined--unless we can get consensus that 61 is still the record...

http://bit.ly/1jrAYmV

clydepepper
07-05-2014, 06:14 PM
I almost totally agree, but want to believe in Pujols

Either way, it's still Bad Henry's Crown

GregMitch34
07-05-2014, 06:42 PM
Funny Chris Davis plunge this year, no?

Jim65
07-05-2014, 06:53 PM
I don't know for a fact that all those players are clean. Only they know for sure.

Orioles1954
07-05-2014, 07:18 PM
Funny Chris Davis plunge this year, no?

1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

ATP
07-05-2014, 09:29 PM
In regards to the opening paragraph of the list, if Jr. isn't clean than I don't know if anyone from that era was...or at least I hope that is the case.

GregMitch34
07-05-2014, 09:46 PM
Junior averaged 52 HRs a year for 4 years--at peak of steroid era. Hardly anyone in history had ever done that, pre-1990s. Just saying.

Duluth Eskimo
07-05-2014, 09:55 PM
In regards to the opening paragraph of the list, if Jr. isn't clean than I don't know if anyone from that era was...or at least I hope that is the case.

In my opinion, I have always thought Junior was juicing. Not right away, but after some of these other guys started pulling away. It's sad because he had such a sweet swing. He put on serious muscle and then late in his career started falling apart like all the other guys whose bodies couldn't handle all the unnatural muscle packed on. It is what it is, but I would bet serious money Griffey was on it and he didn't have to be. 5 tool player before that.

Orioles1954
07-05-2014, 09:56 PM
Junior averaged 52 HRs a year for 4 years--at peak of steroid era. Hardly anyone in history had ever done that, pre-1990s. Just saying.

Griffey Jr. was an amazing talent in a potent lineup who put up those numbers at a small dome. He also got injured. A lot. Aren't PEDs supposed to aid in quick recovery?

the 'stache
07-05-2014, 10:43 PM
1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

I agree. I don't think Davis is a steroid user. I live just outside of Arlington, so I got a chance to see Davis play for the Rangers. He's shown this same power ever since he was called up to the Majors. He hit 38 home runs in his first 686 at bats over two seasons. The problem is the Rangers never used him as a full-time player.

Davis is going through the same thing Ryan Braun has been battling most of the season. First, Braun had the thumb injury, which was bad enough, because it meant he couldn't tell how tightly he was gripping the handle. His thumb has been black and blue on and off. Then he suffered an oblique injury, and he's still battling it. He's not able to pull the ball like he normally can because of it. All of his hits right now are going to right or right center field. Eventually, those will heal, and both Davis and Braun will see their power numbers jump back up. For now, at least Braun is still being productive, as he's driven in 49 runs despite missing 16 games on the DL.

Fred
07-05-2014, 11:18 PM
I think a lot of people look at Grif Jr. and Pujols as sacred cows that they don't want to believe ever to a PED. Both are/were very talented but who knows for sure if they used PEDs, only they know for sure. Bonds would have hit 500HRs without the juice, too bad he now holds the records for season and lifetime HRs.

Hey, where's Crime Dog on that top 20 list?

clydepepper
07-05-2014, 11:29 PM
By the way, I do not own cards of anybody I believe to have used.

I do, however, own plenty of Jr. Griffey and Thome

...and that goes for pitchers too...don't own any Clemens cards, but I have a lot of Pedro!

Just trying to keep integrity in my hobby.

hope this thread gets some book sales for you, Greg

71buc
07-06-2014, 12:48 AM
I watched Jr. from day one of his career in Seattle. He played the game the right way. He never had the second prime of a Barry Bonds. Was he a petulant Prima Donna, absolutely, a juicer, no way. This is the danger of PEDs everybody is suspected even without evidence. When you compare Griffey to a known steroid user like Sosa according to www.baseball-reference.com you can see that Sosa compared well to some above average players. However from age 32 through 38 he was comparable to a future HOF member named Griffey Junior. Junior is the only HOF caliber player Sosa compares to at any age. Other than a juiced Sosa, and Cedeno, who posted ridiculous numbers early in his career, Junior was comparable to the legends of the game throughout his career at virtually every age . If you give PEDs to an above average player he will perform like a PEDs legend. You give them to an supremely talented and genetically gifted athlete like Bonds and you create a monster.


Most Similar by Ages Sosa

21. Jack Clark (972) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
22. Lloyd Moseby (967) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
23. Chili Davis (961) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
24. Curt Blefary (967) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
25. Jim Wynn (957) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
26. Jim Wynn (947) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
27. Tony Conigliaro (952) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
28. Dale Murphy (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
29. Darryl Strawberry (949) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
30. Jose Canseco (914) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
31. Dale Murphy (895) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
32. Ken Griffey (867) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
33. Ken Griffey (908) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
34. Ken Griffey (915) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
35. Ken Griffey (906) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
36. Ken Griffey (904) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
38. Ken Griffey (869) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

Most Similar by Ages Griffey

21. Mickey Mantle (960) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
22. Cesar Cedeno (955) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
23. Mickey Mantle (936) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
24. Mickey Mantle (935) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
25. Miguel Cabrera (957) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
26. Frank Robinson (954) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
27. Frank Robinson (944) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
28. Frank Robinson (919) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
29. Frank Robinson (906) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
30. Frank Robinson (916) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
31. Frank Robinson (923) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
32. Frank Robinson (915) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
33. Sammy Sosa (908) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
34. Sammy Sosa (915) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
35. Sammy Sosa (906) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
36. Sammy Sosa (904) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
37. Frank Robinson (886) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
38. Frank Robinson (887) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

MattyC
07-06-2014, 03:04 AM
With regard to the slight and implication on Griffey above... I think that's one heck of an unfair leap-- with no hard evidence-- to besmirch such a great player. Talent, hard work, and advances in training, nutrition, and sports medicine can also lead to high achievement. Some fans see PED use behind so many players. What about guys like Koufax or Molitor who had seemingly anomalous spikes in performance; perhaps they found some miracle edge, as well? I just think it makes no sense to sweepingly blanket-erase everyone from an entire era. I surmise by the same logic that Boggs juiced in 87 as well, and the list of boogeymen can go on. And I'm not even a Griffey fan. I think it really hamstrings one's credibility, if one is willing to besmirch a player based merely on being present and doing well in that era. If that's all the criteria it takes to be branded a PED user...

GregMitch34
07-06-2014, 04:17 AM
Yeah, we heard that 15 years ago from people who doubted PED use--attributing HR records to "hard work, and advances in training, nutrition, and sports medicine." How did that hold up? Same "advances" today but HR totals dwindled. Again, Griffey HRs spiked at exact time we saw it from known PED users. We used to be told that Piazza was not a suspect either and then a lot of circumstantial evidence came out and it's hurt his Hall chances. Again: no proof but a taint.

And, no, PEDs tend to cause later injuries, not heal them.

Really, comparing Koufax's "spike" to players to PED era? Really?

3-2-count
07-06-2014, 07:56 AM
Hey, where's Crime Dog on that top 20 list?

Mcgriff should definitely be mentioned here. His 493 career HR's tie him with Gehrig who is shown on the list!

Jason
07-06-2014, 07:59 AM
On another note. I suppose Steve Carlton is still the career leader in K's since the top three on the list more than likely used roids.

GregMitch34
07-06-2014, 08:30 AM
You care to cite Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson evidence on steroids?

Peter_Spaeth
07-06-2014, 08:47 AM
Koufax had frequent injections of cortisone (a steroid) in his elbow. Is it different when a doctor prescribes it?

MattyC
07-06-2014, 08:48 AM
The "evidence" presented in this thread against Griffey is just not at all impressive and convincing. Seriously, if that's all the logic and proof one needs to smear someone's achievements, why watch any pro baseball after the mid 1980's? It's a bitter, cynical, and unfortunate prism through which to view things.

So, a spike in the roid era means roid usage. But a spike before the known steroid era means clean and earned achievement? As any player will concede, there were always performance enhancers of one type or another in each era, things players took for "an edge." So let's just be fair and not consider players from a past era sacrosanct and divine, and anyone with a spike in the steroid era guilty. It should still come down to innocent until proven guilty, and mere suspicion cannot be enough to erase someone from the record books. This does mean some guilty but unproven parties will skate, but better that than an innocent party be ruined by mere suspicion alone.

Peter_Spaeth
07-06-2014, 08:56 AM
Griffey's career had a pretty normal trajectory. Wouldn't you expect him to peak in his late 20s?

ksabet
07-06-2014, 08:58 AM
I am on the other side of this argument. I am a little bit younger but I still never understood the lack of acceptance in the evolution of sports. I have always felt athletes should be judged based on how they played against others of the same era. It is impossible to compare Ruth to Bonds PEDs or not.

Should we come up with a list of pre 162 games home run leaders as well? Or categorize every time the mound was changed or every time strike zone was altered. Maybe we should figure out the true home run leaders based on their home ball parks.

PEDs was part of the game for a while whether we like it or not.

MattyC
07-06-2014, 09:15 AM
Griffey's career had a pretty normal trajectory. Wouldn't you expect him to peak in his late 20s?

I'm with you all the way on that one, Peter.

GregMitch34
07-06-2014, 09:59 AM
By your logic all players are equally suspect--whether in an era where massive enhancers such as steroids and HGH not known to be used to an era where we know it was rampant? No difference, right?

As for cortisone as a PED--that's laughable. Just seems like a desperate attempt to defend players from recent years.

As for Griffey--I never said there was any strong evidence. On the other hand, those who say there's no chance, absolutely, may be going too far.

glynparson
07-06-2014, 10:06 AM
I always find this funny cheating has was and always will be a part of professional sports. If just popping a pill made one an all star why are so many also rans and bench warmers getting caught. Non of this bothers me as much as acting like guys competing against just a segment of the population makes them some how superior.

frankbmd
07-06-2014, 10:21 AM
By the way, I do not own cards of anybody I believe to have used.

I do, however, own plenty of Jr. Griffey and Thome

...and that goes for pitchers too...don't own any Clemens cards, but I have a lot of Pedro!

Just trying to keep integrity in my hobby.

hope this thread gets some book sales for you, Greg


Forensic analysis of baseball cards is one way to separate the wheat from the chaff.;)

GregMitch34
07-06-2014, 10:36 AM
The argument that players should just be compared to others in their era is fair--if the playing field, so to speak, is level. But it's not when, let's say, half of the stars are cheating and the other half not. So yes, you could say--Barry Bonds was a somewhat better slugger than Sammy Sosa. And on the unproven side, you could say Jim Thome was a somewhat better slugger than Fred McGriff. To me it's sad that this is the only valid measure. Others don't seem to be bothered by it.

As for Griffey having a "normal career trajectory"--true, he peaked in what should be his peak age. But no one before the PED era except the Babe ever averaged 52 HRs a year for four years, during those peak years, as Griffey did. And then he fell apart with one injury after another, starting when he was only in his early '30s--which didn't happen with most of the previous superstars.

Peter_Spaeth
07-06-2014, 11:04 AM
Are amphetamines PEDs? Or only drugs that build muscle?

MattyC
07-06-2014, 11:17 AM
By your logic all players are equally suspect--whether in an era where massive enhancers such as steroids and HGH not known to be used to an era where we know it was rampant? No difference, right?


No, that's respectfully not my position. By my logic it just takes much more than mere elite performance in the steroid era to cast aspersion on a great player, as is the case with Griffey and some others.

I believe each era had its own performance enhancers, which gave those who took them an edge over those who did not. Amphetamines, for example, definitely improve performance; many took them in the pre-steroid era. I believe players who take officially banned substances should face the strictest punishments available.

GregMitch34
07-06-2014, 11:23 AM
Amphetamines do little to improve performance--beyond getting you "back on the field" and "up for the game." Of course, they still should have been rooted out but you don't see odd years for hitting in the 1970s and 1980s pre-steroids. Ironically, that was the argument used to defend steroids (McGwire and others said this)--they only help them "recover from injuries" faster and "get them back on the field." I guess they had nothing to do with the routine 50 to 70 home run years.

dabigyankeeman
07-06-2014, 11:35 AM
Steroids artificially enchance your abilities. How about Lasik eye surgery? That totally artificially enhances your ability to see, it makes you like a bionic man. You usually no longer need glasses (and all the problems they bring like sweat and condensation), and sometimes your vision is way better than it would ever be normally.

How about Tommy John surgery? You are totally artificially moving stuff around in the body and creating a bionic arm with something that was not supposed to be there in the first place.

Lets face it, with those and other new legal drugs, the players of today have tremendous ways to make their bodies better than the players of years ago.

I also believe that a very high pct of players in the steroid era were on something, steroids, testosterone, HGH, etc. Way more than people think.

Its very tough for us to make a judgement as who is good or "clean" and who isnt. Soon, drugs will be developed that will be virtually un-detectable.

And now what about this latest story about A-Rod being allowed to use certain drugs by MLB???

To me, put everyone with the right numbers in the HOF, and if you want, put a line at the bottom that this player played in the steroid era.

MattyC
07-06-2014, 11:37 AM
In a hypothetical scenario, what if a big HR like one by Maris or Mantle in 1961, or a great hot week by a Frank Robinson in his triple crown year or a Carew in his .388 year-- what if any of those feats was the result in part of amphetamine usage?

The point regarding amphetamines is not to compare their degree of effect to modern drugs. The point is that an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage; the degree of advantage is a separate issue.

Then there is also the issue of whether a substance was or wasn't on a "banned list" when taken.

Each fan will have their own view on these complex topics and how to parse players' achievements between eras, and of course to each his own.

Ultimately, for this baseball fan, the salient point here is that the era and the potency of its drugs should not lower the level of proof needed to cast aspersion on a man's achievements.

In essence the underpinning logic there would be that the performance alone is evidence of guilt; and with there being PEDs of one form or another in each era, that same logic opens a door to saying any player in any era with elite performance was on the PEDs of his time. Hence my objection to lumping Griffey in with those who have either admitted to taking steroids or failed drug tests.

clydepepper
07-06-2014, 11:39 AM
As for Griffey having a "normal career trajectory"--true, he peaked in what should be his peak age. But no one before the PED era except the Babe ever averaged 52 HRs a year for four years, during those peak years, as Griffey did. And then he fell apart with one injury after another, starting when he was only in his early '30s--which didn't happen with most of the previous superstars.[/QUOTE]


Griffey's injuries did not occur just to age and normal wear and tear. He broke his wrist early on due to the way he played his position which is one of the most physically demanding positions anyway you play it. The late-career leg injuries were all the results of effort, not 'coming down' off something. Accumulating injuries almost always come with age...unless you're chemically altered.

Griffey and bonds had almost exactly the same advantages (over Aaron and Mays, etc.), but Griffey took the road less traveled, the (morally) right one.

Jason
07-06-2014, 11:49 AM
You care to cite Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson evidence on steroids?


I have the same proof you have to accuse some of the players you mentioned. Just a glance at some stats and a feeling.

Nolan Ryan had 1 200 inning season from Age 36-39
Nolan Ryan had 4 200 inning seasons from Age 40-43

Plus classic roid rage in the Ventura Fight!

The whole steroids make you recover from injuries quicker and get back on the field makes me think of Cal's consecutive games streak. But I digress.....

clydepepper
07-06-2014, 11:55 AM
It is obvious that part of the discussion lends itself to a player's popularity.

However, very few would seriously consider a comparison between bonds* and RIPKEN or between Clemens* and RYAN to have any merit whatsoever.

And as far as the Ventura BEATDOWN w/ NUGGIES, Nolan is an active rancher and was just channeling his other work skills.

brewing
07-06-2014, 12:00 PM
Any chance the ball was juiced?

Peter_Spaeth
07-06-2014, 12:00 PM
Randy Johnson was only a slightly above average pitcher until he turned 28 or so and then had a spectacular rise which lasted to a ripe old age. So let's convict him too.

clydepepper
07-06-2014, 12:06 PM
Right after his famous meeting with Nolan Ryan....hmmm....LOL

Steve D
07-06-2014, 01:47 PM
Any chance the ball was juiced?


I firmly believe it was. I still vividly remember all the "Chicks dig the long ball" commercials with Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine in the mid-late 1990s. I'm convinced MLB juiced the baseballs to get fans back after the 1994 strike. They wanted players to hit more homeruns, since it was exciting and created more fan interest, i.e., money flooding MLB's coffers.

Steve

itjclarke
07-06-2014, 04:02 PM
They wanted players to hit more homeruns, since it was exciting and created more fan interest, i.e., money flooding MLB's coffers.


Whether balls were juiced or not (I definitely don't discount juiced balls, especially in 1987), I agree, baseball absolutely wanted more HRs. Baseball profited immensly during this era, and attendance and TV viewership (mainly local cable) numbers have never really lost the gains made during that late '90s.

As a life long fan/player/etc, I didn't really like the juiced up, high scoring style of play during the roid era.. but clearly the bulk of fans, and the always important "casual fan" really did. Seeing the premium on speed, gloves, and in game tactics evaporate in lieu of a bloop and a bomb, or just a few bombs, bothered me. I'm glad baseball is back to looking more like the baseball I grew up with. There's still more power than the '80s, which admittedly is nice, but we still see a lot of 3-2, 2-1, 1-0 games. Pitching is strong and there seems to be an influx of speedy top of the order and/or glove first types making their way back into the game.

As for the person who mentioned Ryan and Ripken, I've been suspiscious of both. Not that there's any damning evidence, nor am I making accusations, but it does annoy me when fans/media put certain players on a pedastal of immunity, while seeming intent on destroying others. I get that some guys (like Bonds) opened themselves to increased scrutiny by being unfriendly to the press, but please, are those in the press really so thin skinned?? Bonds for one grew up watching the press turn on his dad, and seeing his dad eventually become an alcoholic. Not that I give a pass for any number of other things he did, but I had no problem with his being surly and untrusting toward those in media. The media in general has done a lot more damage to players and their families than players have done to them.

Anyway, back to the steroid era, something that really bothers me is that MLB, its owners, and gutless commissioner profited greatly, and still do to this day. However they receive very little scrutiny over the era and how it unfolded. The public responsibility seems to fall squarely on the shoulders of players... and inordanitely on Bonds', Clemens' shoulders, as compared to loveable types like Big Papi and others. If Selig (see no evil, hear no evil as long a profits are coming in, or as long as Henry Aaron's record is not in jeopardy) is eventually enshrined in Cooperstown, I'll vomit. IMO, he and baseball should bare far more criticism for not taking any true steps to fight proliferation of steroids until long after public and governemnt sentiment demanded they do so.

irishdenny
07-06-2014, 05:27 PM
1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

I'm not a BiG PED Hater, David Schoenfield of ESPN Seems to have Mr Chris Davis somewhat figured out.
I don't believe that Mr Davis is a PED Guy...
I believe in STATS, Otherwise Guys like Cobb wouldn't be in the Hall.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/49277/whats-wrong-with-chris-davis

However, Since this game has begun Players have looked for an Edge, And We as Fan's Majority Have Always Rooted for them oN.
And my opinion is Who ever is in the Books 100 years from Now,
"Will be in the Books!" And that's what Really Will Matters...

Players PED's usage will be talked about as mush as Cobb's Anger issue's!

Peter_Spaeth
07-06-2014, 07:33 PM
Scoring is overrated. Look at the excitement of a 2-1 or 1-0 baseball or soccer or hockey game. Or for that matter any relatively low scoring basketball game compared to the alternative.

packs
07-07-2014, 09:49 AM
Good list.

Very surprised people think Griffey juiced. All you had to do was see him swing and you already knew how good he was.

Was Ralph Kiner juicing too? He averaged 52 home runs per 162 games from 1947 to 1950.

I Only Smoke 4 the Cards
07-07-2014, 10:32 AM
I don't care who people "think" juiced. I am curious about evidence about players that might have juiced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Peter_Spaeth
07-07-2014, 10:56 AM
Maris only had two other seasons above 30. Not quite Brady Anderson, but pretty aberrational. Nobody questions his 61 however. The point being, if Maris can hit 61, why can't Griffey (a supremely talented player) average 50 for a few years without raising suspicions?

packs
07-07-2014, 11:45 AM
I think playing alongside Mantle during that season was what enabled Maris to accomplish what he did. He had Mantle right behind him to push him. Everyone plays better around heightened competition. I don't think Maris ever does what he did if it weren't for Mantle's competition.

After 1961 he was essentially finished. The season took so much out of him so I'm not surprised he never again came close, despite being only 26 years old when he broke the record.

Peter_Spaeth
07-07-2014, 11:52 AM
I always liked this photo.

sniffy5
07-07-2014, 12:23 PM
Pujols has always looked the same: huge. My personal belief is that he has been taking illegal substances for his entire career. I know all of us sooooo want to believe our favorite players are clean, but it's probably just not the case. The fact is that PED use was, and probably still is, encouraged by agents, coaches, managers, and MLB (and the NFL). Many of us work out regularly. There's a reason we don't look like Pujols, Clemens, Ray Lewis, et al. And if someone told me to rub some cream on my arms that will never be detected in a test, and I'll get so good that I'd land a 125 million dollar contract, I'd do it too.

itjclarke
07-07-2014, 09:10 PM
Scoring is overrated. Look at the excitement of a 2-1 or 1-0 baseball or soccer or hockey game. Or for that matter any relatively low scoring basketball game compared to the alternative.

Not sure if this was in response to my post, but if so, that's how I feel. I love seeing relatively low scoring, sub 3 hour baseball games again (though ESPN broadcasts always seem to add 45 min to 1 hr). These seem to be the norm for Giants games at AT&T, and were very much so during their two WS runs.

In regards to Griffey, I'd like to think he was clean, but have no idea how anyone besides him can say that with any certainty. Braun "looked clean" too- wirey strong with a beautiful swing. Baseball/Selig/Players Union didn't test, so aside from the health reasons, there was no disincentive for players to use. To the point of health risks, I think if players were being 100% honest (especially in that era), it would be startling to see how many in the prime of their lives would be willing to trade long term health for present day success and $$$.

Pujols is also very suspect to me, not only for his appearance, but how prevelent usage was in both the minors and majors when he burst onto the scene. It would be great to have hard evidence to determine who used and who didn't, but short of confessions I don't think we ever will for a majority of them. There were/will be a few high profile guys the government and media will spend countless hours and money to go after, but most of the rest will probably need to test positive to get busted.

Runscott
07-07-2014, 09:50 PM
I always find this funny cheating has was and always will be a part of professional sports. If just popping a pill made one an all star why are so many also rans and bench warmers getting caught. Non of this bothers me as much as acting like guys competing against just a segment of the population makes them some how superior.

There was a really good SI article a few years ago, that related to this. Steroids didn't turn everyone into all stars, but it made a lot of players perform better - players who shouldn't have made the majors barely made it, keeping non-cheaters in the minors, which is what the article was about. Few were noticing the huge improvement of such players, because they ended up being lower-tier major leaguers;instead, everyone focused on good players who all of a sudden found unreal batting power.

Runscott
07-07-2014, 09:54 PM
Also, you can get a hint of PED use by looking at 'before and after' photos of guys like Len Dykstra, Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa. I don't remember Griffey going through such a transition.

itjclarke
07-07-2014, 10:08 PM
There was a really good SI article a few years ago, that related to this. Steroids didn't turn everyone into all stars, but it made a lot of players perform better - players who shouldn't have made the majors barely made it, keeping non-cheaters in the minors, which is what the article was about. Few were noticing the huge improvement of such players, because they ended up being lower-tier major leaguers;instead, everyone focused on good players who all of a sudden found unreal batting power.

Scott- I've referred to this article about 3-4 times in other related threads, I'm glad someone else has read it. Don't want to retype the same words over and over, but the general stance I've had for years is that steroids have had a far more negative affect on marginal/fringe players than on stars and fans. Fans/media focus on stars because sacred records are being threatened, but I think many hundreds, if not thousands of fringe players' (and families) lives were greatly and negatively influenced by the widespread use of steriods in the minors/MLB... which I see as a result of Selig and Co's totally lax attitude toward the issue, while they were reaping benefits from the epic HR chase, etc.

You had the 20-40 men on man 40 rosters debating whether to use or not for sake of getting or keeping a job. This was made worse by knowledge that "the guy taking your job" is probably using. You also had guys like the author of that article, who never used but never made a big league roster. While he toiled in the minors, he saw many other marginal talents (guys originally throwing 85, but who'd added 10-12 MPH on their fastball in a single off season) blow right by him

There may be a lot of inflated stats/records up at the top of the steroid era's food chain.. and I agree, that really sucks.. but I think the fact that many many more guys at the lower end of the baseball food chain were robbed of their big league dream, and subsequent paychecks bothers me more.

packs
07-08-2014, 07:22 AM
Pujols has always looked the same: huge. My personal belief is that he has been taking illegal substances for his entire career. I know all of us sooooo want to believe our favorite players are clean, but it's probably just not the case. The fact is that PED use was, and probably still is, encouraged by agents, coaches, managers, and MLB (and the NFL). Many of us work out regularly. There's a reason we don't look like Pujols, Clemens, Ray Lewis, et al. And if someone told me to rub some cream on my arms that will never be detected in a test, and I'll get so good that I'd land a 125 million dollar contract, I'd do it too.


Just wondering why. He was 20 years old his first year in the minors and destroyed pitching. Then hit 37 bombs as a 21 year old rookie. Is it your opinion that he's been taking PEDs since high school and continues to take them now?

He's 6'3 235. You can't just go to the gym and become Albert Pujols. You are just born to be that big. Sammy Sosa was 6'0 and 165 pounds when he entered the league at 20 years old. There is a huge difference between that person and the Sammy Sosa who retired. But I don't think you can say the same for Pujols, who is just a big guy in my eyes.

sniffy5
07-08-2014, 08:39 AM
Yeah, who knows? Maybe Pujols is/was clean? The trouble is, he spent 8 years or so putting up offensive numbers that were beyond belief, and this happened to coincide with an era when HGH was very prevalent and not tested. So, it sort of clouds him in the eyes of many. As far as Pujols being just plain huge, lots of the guilty parties were that way too. The thing with Pujols is that he's a terrific guy. Very charitable, very humble, or at least he was. No one hates him. (Except Angels ownership!!!)

packs
07-08-2014, 08:47 AM
I'm with you. He was a great signer in his early days too. Crowds have probably curbed that a little bit but I used to be able to get him no problem at Cardinals camp in Jupiter.

Runscott
07-08-2014, 09:11 AM
Scott- I've referred to this article about 3-4 times in other related threads, I'm glad someone else has read it.

I don't subscribe to SI, but always read it when I'm at the doctor or dentist. I read most of it before I went in, then went back out and read the remainder. It was really eye-opening.

Regarding guys like Piazza - my guess is that the HOF voters know more than most of us do, regarding PED use. I think that if a deserving guy was clean, he'll get in. And PLEASE don't accuse me of having too positive of an outlook on human nature.

GregMitch34
07-08-2014, 09:34 AM
Maris's 61 partly explained by expansion teams that year--see other AL dingers that year......and Norm Cash hit .360 or something....

Tabe
07-08-2014, 02:42 PM
Maris's 61 partly explained by expansion teams that year--see other AL dingers that year......and Norm Cash hit .360 or something....

Cash admitted using a corked bat that season - and detailed his process for corking the bat in a Sports Illustrated article.

packs
07-08-2014, 03:50 PM
In my opinion you can't take anything away from Maris' 1961 season. 26 years old. Coming off an MVP season. Dealing with everything that came with eclipsing Babe Ruth.

After Mantle the next closest guy to him hit 46. It was an incredible year for him.

sniffy5
07-08-2014, 05:10 PM
The entire situation is very sad. I just don't watch the game with the same enjoyment anymore. I'm a huge Yankee fan, and we come to find out that many players from those championship Yankee years were cheating. And a guy like Pettitte gets a pass because he apologized and admitted it. But he only admitted it after the Mitchell Report cited him. He never would have admitted it otherwise. The report came years after his initial use. Where's the integrity in that?
And many of the PED apologists point to previous generations taking greenies, etc.. But it's not the same thing. For starters, the PED users also are probably taking speed day game after night game. Speculation of course, but I'm certain if players are willing to pay for platelet-spinning treatments, they'd also be willing to pop a speed pill here and there. And where us the line drawn to begin with? What about the pain-killer injection Gibson got when he hit the shot off of Eck? Was that a performance enhancer? Well, the answer is no. Greenies and cortisone don't make marginal players into stars. They don't add 40 lbs of muscle. But what makes me most disturbed with the entire subject is this notion the certain players are clean and free of suspicion. Jeter for instance. Every fan "knows" he never took a single PED. Everyone else in the league, who knows? But not Jeter. But how do we know that? And what's more, how could we know that?. I'm not certain he did, but I don't understand why certain players get the pass. Hell, SF fans annoyed the baseball world with their absolute absolution of Bonds. And Larussa swore none of his Oakland players ever took steroids. Then Canseco wrote the book, and Larussa then admitted Canseco did but again swore McGwire didn't. He could not get his bold faced lies straight. McGwire does his pitiful congress thing, and next thing you know St Louis wins the World Series with McGwire as batting coach. All lies forgiven and forgotten. That what kills me.

Peter_Spaeth
07-08-2014, 05:28 PM
Maris's 61 partly explained by expansion teams that year--see other AL dingers that year......and Norm Cash hit .360 or something....

Any NL batting records set when the Mets and Colts were added? This seems an unlikely explanation to me. I think he just had a career year, and it didn't hurt that it was impossible to pitch around him.

refz
07-09-2014, 10:01 AM
Seeing how griffey is zeroed in on this thread, was frank thomas ever suspected? He also did alot of damage in the 90s. Just wondering.

GHCHambone
07-09-2014, 10:57 AM
" The Mitchell Report also stated that interviews were requested of five MLB players who had spoken out publicly on the steroid issue. Of these players, only one, Frank Thomas, was willing to be interviewed. The Mitchell Report stated that there was no evidence that any of these five had used performance-enhancing drugs."

GHCHambone
07-09-2014, 10:58 AM
(From Wikipedia article)

sniffy5
07-09-2014, 11:27 AM
Frank Thomas came from the world of college football. Lord knows what he may have experimented with. But he's another really nice guy. It seems to me that fans really only truly vilify players that broke truly cherished records while obviously using steroids or HGH. Although McGwire gets a pass from some because he eventually admitted it ( far too late.) Bonds, Sosa...forget it. Same with Clemens. People hate him for his lies, his cheating, and his relationship with a 10TH GRADE girl when he was a married 30 year old man (she has since committed suicide.) And if course Palmeiro. But guys like Thomas, Pujols, even Pudge Rodriguez, who was down there in Texas juicing with Juan Gonzales and Canseco...nobody seems to care so much anymore. But if Pujols or Ortiz starting sniffing 61 or 715, it would be a different story...

bender07
07-09-2014, 11:55 AM
Anyway, back to the steroid era, something that really bothers me is that MLB, its owners, and gutless commissioner profited greatly, and still do to this day. However they receive very little scrutiny over the era and how it unfolded. The public responsibility seems to fall squarely on the shoulders of players... and inordanitely on Bonds', Clemens' shoulders, as compared to loveable types like Big Papi and others. If Selig (see no evil, hear no evil as long a profits are coming in, or as long as Henry Aaron's record is not in jeopardy) is eventually enshrined in Cooperstown, I'll vomit. IMO, he and baseball should bare far more criticism for not taking any true steps to fight proliferation of steroids until long after public and governemnt sentiment demanded they do so.

Boom! Agreed. Why do we celebrate Torre and Larussa getting into the HOF so easily when they directly benefited from having players on their teams on PEDs? Whether they knew or not (yeah right), their WS and win totals are directly related to roided up players.

clydepepper
07-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Frank Thomas came from the world of college football. Lord knows what he may have experimented with. But he's another really nice guy. It seems to me that fans really only truly vilify players that broke truly cherished records while obviously using steroids or HGH. Although McGwire gets a pass from some because he eventually admitted it ( far too late.) Bonds, Sosa...forget it. Same with Clemens. People hate him for his lies, his cheating, and his relationship with a 10TH GRADE girl when he was a married 30 year old man (she has since committed suicide.) And if course Palmeiro. But guys like Thomas, Pujols, even Pudge Rodriguez, who was down there in Texas juicing with Juan Gonzales and Canseco...nobody seems to care so much anymore. But if Pujols or Ortiz starting sniffing 61 or 715, it would be a different story...

While I probably am at least a little bid bias towards a hometown player, Frank Thomas's body has been same since he was in high school.

packs
07-09-2014, 12:51 PM
Pudge has always been someone I personally think may have dipped into the PEDs.

In 1992 he was listed at 5'9 165 pounds.

In 1995, 3 years later, he was listed at 5'9 205 pounds.

Maybe it's possible to add 40 pounds of muscle in 3 season at the gym. But that seems like a lot to me.

sniffy5
07-09-2014, 01:15 PM
Wasn't Ivan Rodriguez also hitting 50 HRs at one point as well?

packs
07-09-2014, 01:18 PM
No he topped out at 35.

Peter_Spaeth
07-09-2014, 01:18 PM
Wasn't Ivan Rodriguez also hitting 50 HRs at one point as well?

Not even close. 35 or so was his max. You may be thinking of Gonzalez or Palmeiro.

sniffy5
07-09-2014, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I don't have his stats in front of me. But I do recall a point when his offense went suspiciously berserk for a while during the steroid craze. But I agree, 35 hrs for a catcher isn't weird. Maybe he had crazy BA with lots of doubles and run production???

packs
07-09-2014, 02:41 PM
Not that weird but Pudge did just so happen to put up his career year and won an MVP award the same season (1999) Rafael Palmeiro joined the Rangers and hit 47 homers. That doesn't bode well.

MattyC
07-09-2014, 04:32 PM
Regarding increased muscle mass as proof of steroid use... A lot of fans just have no idea what serious training and nutrition can do to transform a body-- let alone a body that is already a genetically gifted specimen. Some people have never made intense training and nutrition a major part of their lives, and cannot fathom what the human body is truly capable of achieving. Point being that increasing lean mass and one's physique is by no means at all proof positive of steroids. I am not a pro athlete by any means at all, and at 6'1" I reduced body fat and added 10 lbs of lean mass in multiple consecutive years (and in my thirties, no less; I am 37 now), just by training intensely and taking nutrition very seriously. In contrast a pro athlete with a tremendous frame who wants to improve and has expert trainers and nutritionists on call can make immense gains in lean mass without the need of steroids.

sniffy5
07-09-2014, 05:12 PM
That's very true, but it also reminds me of the PR statements made by all the guilty parties back when the heat first started on them. Bonds' and Clemens' people would invite ESPN to do a clip on their incredible workout regimes. Of course leaving out one crucial detail. And these workouts explained to us how at 35 they still had yet to reach the apex of skill and just kept getting better and better, defying all logic and empirical evidence from 80+ years of live-ball baseball. Plus, I'm sure many of us hit the gym. We can spot the juicers immediately. And I do admit that it got difficult for a suspicious but also naive fan base to spot them in baseball at one point, because guys like Brett Boone and Jeff Bagwell and Ken Caminiti were what the best ball players looked like for a while. Of course we realize now that they were juiced out of their minds.

Tabe
07-09-2014, 05:25 PM
Pudge only hit 30 HRs once (the 1999 MVP season). He had other seasons of 20, 21, 25 & 27 HRs but mostly hit like 17-19 per year. The 1999 season IS an outlier but his 2000 season is more suspicious. It's a year after Raffy joined the squad and he hit 27 HRs - in just 91 games.

Quite frankly, I thought Pudge was in the "yeah, there's no doubt he used" group. He got significantly smaller once testing started. He never got popped for anything but, yeah, he's a no-brainer for me.

clydepepper
07-09-2014, 05:38 PM
Bert Campaneris - 22 HRs in 1970 - never more than 8 any other year.

Wade Boggs - 24 HRs in 1987 - had 11 in another season, but other than that, never had more than 8 any other year.

- By the way, why in the HECK haven't the Red Sox retired Boggs' #26? Whatever the reason, it is petty.

sniffy5
07-09-2014, 06:15 PM
It's because Boggs jumped to the Yankees and won a ring, I'm sure. Have they retired Clemens' number? I misremember. But I'm relatively sure they are really displeased with his post Sox success with the Yanks.

As for Campaneris and Boggs, abberation years to a degree, but apples and oranges to steroid/HGH users. Baseball all star teams lining up on the foul lines looked like WWE dudes dressed in baseball uniforms for a span of several years. Take a look at the photos in that Game of Shadows book if you get the chance. Bonds and the other players are so huge in their uniforms that they look like they are about to explode.

packs
07-09-2014, 06:25 PM
Bert Campaneris - 22 HRs in 1970 - never more than 8 any other year.

Wade Boggs - 24 HRs in 1987 - had 11 in another season, but other than that, never had more than 8 any other year.

- By the way, why in the HECK haven't the Red Sox retired Boggs' #26? Whatever the reason, it is petty.


It's not the amount, it's the timing. The year Palmeiro, a no doubt about it cheater, joined the Rangers Pudge had a career year and put up his best power numbers of his career.

Peter_Spaeth
07-09-2014, 06:33 PM
Boggs hit .363 to go along with those 24 homers and finished 9th in the MVP voting. Says everything you need to know about Boggs. His number does not deserve to be retired.

sniffy5
07-09-2014, 06:41 PM
I don't know. Boggs is in the Hall of Fame for his years in Boston. Maybe I'm wrong, but did he request to go into the Hall in a Devil Rays cap? Or was it a Yankee cap? Either way, that would explain why the Red Sox are not recognizing him...

bnorth
07-09-2014, 06:56 PM
Bert Campaneris - 22 HRs in 1970 - never more than 8 any other year.

Wade Boggs - 24 HRs in 1987 - had 11 in another season, but other than that, never had more than 8 any other year.

- By the way, why in the HECK haven't the Red Sox retired Boggs' #26? Whatever the reason, it is petty.

I also think Wade Boggs # should be retired. As far as his 24 HRs in 1987 if you ever seen him take batting practice you would think 24 would be an off year. He was a homerun hitting machine during BP.

I think a lot of players did PEDs since the 1950's but do not think Wade is one of them.

packs
07-09-2014, 07:05 PM
I hear people about training and being an elite athlete and I agree whole heartedly that people can build themselves naturally through a combination of training and genetics.

But just food for thought. In 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. was listed as 6'3 195. In 1998 when he hit 56 homers for a second year in a row he was listed as 6'3 205.

In 1990 Frank Thomas was listed as 6'5 240. In 1994 after winning his second MVP in a row he was listed as 6'5 257.

Pudge was 40 pounds heavier.

clydepepper
07-09-2014, 07:08 PM
Woah Boys! It was not my intention to imply that either Campy or Boggs juiced...only another poor attempt at humor.

Peter- Boggs DOES deserve to have his Red Sox number retired.

Here's a question for everyone:

Who would your rate higher: Carew, Boggs, or Gwynn?

Right now, more folks would probably say Gwynn - especially if you include defense...

but what if you are just comparing who is the better pure hitter...that is my question.

clydepepper
07-09-2014, 07:09 PM
I hear people about training and being an elite athlete and I agree whole heartedly that people can build themselves naturally through a combination of training and genetics.

But just food for thought. In 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. was listed as 6'3 195. In 1998 when he hit 56 homers for a second year in a row he was listed as 6'3 205.

In 1990 Frank Thomas was listed as 6'5 240. In 1994 after winning his second MVP in a row he was listed as 6'5 257.

Pudge was 40 pounds heavier.


...and my drivers license still lists me at 235

Peter_Spaeth
07-09-2014, 07:11 PM
Gwynn, then Carew, then Boggs. :D:D But Boggs may have been the best at arguing hits and errors with the official scorer because his stats mattered so much to him.

Peter_Spaeth
07-09-2014, 07:34 PM
I also think Wade Boggs # should be retired. As far as his 24 HRs in 1987 if you ever seen him take batting practice you would think 24 would be an off year. He was a homerun hitting machine during BP.

I think a lot of players did PEDs since the 1950's but do not think Wade is one of them.

Yeah if given his choice Boggs almost certainly would have opted for .350 and 0 HR than, say, .290 with 30-35 HR, even if the latter would have helped his team more. The 24 year was weird, because he hit for the same high average, then he dropped to something like 5 the next year, almost as if he said FU.

clydepepper
07-09-2014, 09:24 PM
I also remember him following Bo Jackson's lead-off Bomb in the '89 AS game with his own.

I recall a writer, Peter Gammons I believe, saying that Boggs would hit homers in batting practice with such precision that he would start hitting them out to left and keep going all the way around to right.

Boggs isn't the person Gwynn was and probably not Carew (I know less about him), but if that story is true, WOW

Boggs also walked a ton, something that neither Gwynn or Carew did...he was one base over 300 times in more than one season, so how could he not be helping his team?

Now, I would still probably lean to Gwynn, but give Boggs his due.

Duluth Eskimo
07-10-2014, 12:32 AM
Regarding increased muscle mass as proof of steroid use... A lot of fans just have no idea what serious training and nutrition can do to transform a body-- let alone a body that is already a genetically gifted specimen. Some people have never made intense training and nutrition a major part of their lives, and cannot fathom what the human body is truly capable of achieving. Point being that increasing lean mass and one's physique is by no means at all proof positive of steroids. I am not a pro athlete by any means at all, and at 6'1" I reduced body fat and added 10 lbs of lean mass in multiple consecutive years (and in my thirties, no less; I am 37 now), just by training intensely and taking nutrition very seriously. In contrast a pro athlete with a tremendous frame who wants to improve and has expert trainers and nutritionists on call can make immense gains in lean mass without the need of steroids.

If this is true, kudos to you. The only thing is that you should be the first person to recognize anomalies like these and not defending these guys. Speaking as someone who trained very hard in the past (clean) and worked out with many people who cheated, I find it very hard to believe most of these people are supposedly clean hitters in baseball. If you have have trained hard, it stands out like a sore thumb. Not sure what else to say.

earlywynnfan
07-10-2014, 03:08 AM
I also remember him following Bo Jackson's lead-off Bomb in the '89 AS game with his own.

I recall a writer, Peter Gammons I believe, saying that Boggs would hit homers in batting practice with such precision that he would start hitting them out to left and keep going all the way around to right.

Boggs isn't the person Gwynn was and probably not Carew (I know less about him), but if that story is true, WOW

Boggs also walked a ton, something that neither Gwynn or Carew did...he was one base over 300 times in more than one season, so how could he not be helping his team?

Now, I would still probably lean to Gwynn, but give Boggs his due.

Boggs was known for ignoring hit-and-run signs and watching the runner get thrown out because he didn't like the pitch.

Peter_Spaeth
07-10-2014, 05:52 AM
I don't know. Boggs is in the Hall of Fame for his years in Boston. Maybe I'm wrong, but did he request to go into the Hall in a Devil Rays cap? Or was it a Yankee cap? Either way, that would explain why the Red Sox are not recognizing him...

No, Red Sox cap.

earlywynnfan
07-10-2014, 12:25 PM
No, Red Sox cap.

I thought he promised the Rays that since they signed him and let him reach 3000 hits, he'd request the Rays cap??

Peter_Spaeth
07-10-2014, 12:31 PM
--

PowderedH2O
07-10-2014, 01:10 PM
Bodies can't always tell you the truth. When I played high school football I was scrawny. I was 5'10" and weighed 145-150 lbs. I worked out and ate and ate and drank shakes and by my senior year I was playing at 160. I stayed between 140-160 until I was about 28 or 29. Then, suddenly, the weight started piling on. I wasn't doing anything different in my exercise or eating. I am now 215 and I haven't been able to keep the weight under 200 consistently for over 20 years. The point I am trying to make is that if I were an elite athlete, around 28 I would have shown a 40-50 pound weight gain. One might think I was using steroids. A lot of guys pack on muscle and weight as they get to that age. So, I can't criticise a player that has this happen. Now, does the head get abnormally large too? Well, that might be a different story.

sniffy5
07-10-2014, 04:40 PM
Defending players from so-called "steroid era" (probably as much if not more HGH as steroids) is pretty pointless.

Peter_Spaeth
07-10-2014, 06:25 PM
Should Gaylord Perry be in the Hall?

packs
07-11-2014, 07:28 AM
I'm with sniffy.