When is it okay to cancel a sale?

[jhs5120]

After all this talk regarding cancelling transactions, screwing seller/buyers and people reneging; I wanted to share a current situation I'm in:

I had a large group of sets for sale at $2,400 obo. In the listing I charged $100 shipping, but asked for pick-up, because I was unsure about the logistics involved in shipping such a heavy (over 120 pounds) group of items. The sets are probably worth $1,800-2,000 if you price them out individually.

I have been in communications with a man (buyer A) who offered $1,700 off ebay for the group. I accepted, but he stopped emailing me. During his messaging hiatus, another bidder (Buyer B) bought the lot for the full asking price! The bidder who won the lot was a 0 feedback bidder who created his account two days before buying my lot. He lives in NY (I live in NJ) and paid immediately.

First red flag: Paypal held the funds for two days while they were trying to verify the source of the payment to ensure it was legitimate. PayPal never provided further details, but the eventually verified it and passed it along.

Second red flag: I don't like dealing with new bidders, especially new bidders who buy an expensive item without caring for the price paid. I recently was scammed buy a zero feedback bidder (http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=914279&highlight_key=y&keyword1=nightm) who charged back his credit card 8 months after the transaction was complete. PayPal ruled against me.

Third red flag: Even though he paid the $100 shipping, I emailed him requesting to meet somewhere in North Jersey (half way) to drop off the items. I offered him his $100 shipping refunded and another 1975 Topps set (about $250 value) on top of the sets he just purchased. He declined saying he was bed ridden. Normally, a person would jump on the offer. It's very possible he's telling the truth, but it sounds a lot like "my dad is very sick and I'm selling his cards" type thing.

Forth red flag: I then reply, "I'm sorry to hear you're not well, I would be happy to hand deliver the cards. It would be much easier (and cheaper) than shipping out 5 boxes." He never replied.

Now, somewhere in between the third red flag and forth red flag "Buyer A" emails me asking if the sets are still available. I inform him of the situation and let him know that I do not feel comfortable shipping 5 or so boxes to this 0 feedback buyer. After an email conversation with "Buyer A" I decided to message "Buyer B" telling him that I must insist on pick-up/hand delivery or I would need to cancel the transaction. He has yet to reply (it's been 5 days).

My question: Is this a situation where it's kosher to cancel a sale? "Buyer B" has a legal right to these cards, but I am honestly not comfortable dealing with him. Something about splitting two grand worth of sets into 4 or 5 boxes and mailing them to a zero feedback bidder doesn't sit well with me. Especially one who has been acting a little bit off since the transaction first took place. I'm obviously not worried about the money; "Buyer B" already paid $2,500 and "Buyer A" is offering $1,700, but I'd gladly pay $800 for a little piece of mind.

I know many members here argue against reneging no matter what, but I'm genuinely curious what people here think. Also, if I do continue with the "Buyer B" transaction, is there a way to ensure he doesn't screw me down the road? i.e. returns my sets and swap out the valuable ones with bricks.

[4815162342]

...I recently was scammed buy a zero feedback bidder (http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=914279&highlight_key=y&keyword1=nightm) who charged back his credit card 8 months after the transaction was complete. PayPal ruled against me...

In early August 2013 I sold a 2004 Yankees team-signed Steiner jersey for $900. The buyer paid and I never heard from them again, I assumed everything went well. Earlier this week I receive a notice that the buyer initiated a credit card chargeback for the $900 OVER SEVEN MONTHS LATER!

I thought this must be a mistake, but I checked the tracking number and sure enough it was never delivered.

How did the zero feedback bidder scam you if the item was never delivered?

[jhs5120]

In early August 2013 I sold a 2004 Yankees team-signed Steiner jersey for $900. The buyer paid and I never heard from them again, I assumed everything went well. Earlier this week I receive a notice that the buyer initiated a credit card chargeback for the $900 OVER SEVEN MONTHS LATER!

I thought this must be a mistake, but I checked the tracking number and sure enough it was never delivered.

How did the zero feedback bidder scam you if the item was never delivered?

If you read the thread, I spoke to a postal inspector and they believed without a doubt the item was delivered and never scanned.

[4815162342]

If you read the thread, I spoke to a postal inspector and they believed without a doubt the item was delivered and never scanned.

Oh that stinks.

[jhs5120]

Oh that stinks.

On top of that, the inspector told me a lot of records are kept for 3 to 6 months. So by waiting 7 months, the buyer essentially ensured that it would be impossible to obtain the information necessary to prove it was delivered.

I contacted the buyer and he refused to help find the item he was "missing"

[4815162342]

On top of that, the inspector told me a lot of records are kept for 3 to 6 months. So by waiting 7 months, the buyer essentially ensured that it would be impossible to obtain the information necessary to prove it was delivered.

I contacted the buyer and he refused to help find the item he was "missing"

3 to 6 months is crazy - as cheap as data storage is in this day and time.

[Deertick]

How did the zero feedback bidder scam you if the item was never delivered?

The USPS website says it wasn't delivered. That doesn't mean it wasn't delivered. I've had buyers try to use this loophole before, but luckily they left feedback and/or email confirming delivery prior to seeing the "official" status.

[jhs5120]

3 to 6 months is crazy - as cheap as data storage is in this day and time.

Agreed, but I guess there really is very little need to keep some information past 6 months. I mean, who ever heard of a credit card charge back 7 months after the fact?

[bn2cardz]

When I ship to people with low feedback or something seems off I buy every form of protection I can think of including signature, even if it costs me some in the end, and I purchase it through ebay shipping so that they have instant access to it.

Actually delivery in person would be harder to prove delivery because there isn't a paper trail back to ebay


As far as when to cancel this is a tough one and I can say that I would be very cautious also.

[Leon]

Agreed, but I guess there really is very little need to keep some information past 6 months. I mean, who ever heard of a credit card charge back 7 months after the fact?

Personally I would be calling that credit card company and give them 2 options. Give me my money back or cancel it right now. Pick one. There are a billion credit cards you can get. Last time I had a charge back like that taken from my bank account, it was after 2 months and was a merchant CC account I had already canceled, I closed the bank account associated with it the next day. It never happened again :).

[jhs5120]

Personally I would be calling that credit card company and give them 2 options. Give me my money back or cancel it right now. Pick one. There are a billion credit cards you can get. Last time I had a charge back like that taken from my bank account, it was after 2 months and was a merchant CC account I had already canceled, I closed the bank account associated with it the next day. It never happened again :).

I wish it was through my Credit Card company! I would've been on them like a freaking banshee! The buyer cancelled the transaction on his end with his credit card. He paid through PayPal (with his credit card) so PayPal immediately withdrew his funds from my account pending the "investigation".


Andy, signature confirmation would be a must, I agree. I'm just worried he would try something funny down the road. In terms of paper trail, one method I have done before was have a generic document stating the buyer has inspected the item and received it w/o issue. I have him sign it and then I take a picture of his drivers license next to the signature. Usually people don't have an issue.

[Runscott]

Personally I would be calling that credit card company and give them 2 options. Give me my money back or cancel it right now. Pick one. There are a billion credit cards you can get. Last time I had a charge back like that taken from my bank account, it was after 2 months and was a merchant CC account I had already canceled, I closed the bank account associated with it the next day. It never happened again :).

I also wonder if it wouldn't be better to not accept credit card payments through Paypal - just make it bank accounts only. After reading the OP's thread regarding that '7 months later' fiasco, I'm feeling kind of paranoid, as I've accepted a few Paypal cc payments. Checking every transaction for delivery status and then saving copies seems excessive.

[thecatspajamas]

When I ship to people with low feedback or something seems off I buy every form of protection I can think of including signature, even if it costs me some in the end, and I purchase it through ebay shipping so that they have instant access to it.

Actually delivery in person would be harder to prove delivery because there isn't a paper trail back to ebay.

+1

If you want eBay to have your back in what you're assuming will be a dispute, go ahead and jump through every hoop they (eBay) ask you to on the front end. It doesn't matter if the hoops make sense to you or not, or if you think you have a better way. Driving to the person's home and dropping off the items in person, if they have bad intentions to start with, is removing the one piece of proof that eBay will require you to show that you delivered the goods and inviting them to take you for the time and expense to deliver the cards as well. If they have to sign for the delivery, it will make them think twice before trying to pull a fast one because it seems more official. If you want to really throw them, add Return Receipt (a little green postcard that they sign and gets mailed back to you). It won't carry any more weight with eBay, but will confuse most recipients who don't know what in the world this little green card is that they're signing that the postman takes with him.

Or, if you listed the item with In-Person Pick-Up as the only delivery option, just cancel the transaction through eBay. There's even an option for that in the list of reasons for the cancellation. If you listed a shipping method though, and somewhere in the description said you would prefer in-person pick-up, you're out of luck in that regard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The guy paid you according to your terms. He doesn't have to accept personal delivery if he doesn't want to. You should follow through on your end.

[usernamealreadytaken]

Basically, the question is whether a seller can breach a contract with a buyer if better terms comes along. I don't think the answer to that question is very difficult . . .

[jhs5120]

The guy paid you according to your terms. He doesn't have to accept personal delivery if he doesn't want to. You should follow through on your end.

I would argue that he paid $100 for "economy shipping" which could very well be personal delivery if that is the most economical method of delivery. If he declines I would almost argue that he's the one that is breaching his contract and I have the right to cancel the sale. 5 large boxes with a combined weight of 120-150 pounds all with signature confirmation and $2400 worth of insurance would easily cost more than a 2 hour round trip drive to NYC.

I think the greatest deterrence for a scammer would be showing up at his house and asking him to sign a contract that he received the sets without issue.

[jhs5120]

Basically, the question is whether a seller can breach a contract with a buyer if better terms comes along. I don't think the answer to that question is very difficult . . .

I don't think that is the question at all. The best terms are the ones that I am trying to get out of.

The question is; is a seller forced to complete a sale that he is genuinely uncomfortable making because he believes the buyer is trying to steal from him?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Shipping does not suggest personal delivery to me. It implies shipping through a third party service. If you undercharged for shipping that is not the buyer's fault.

[usernamealreadytaken]

Depends on what the definition of is is . . .

If I bought something on Ebay and the seller insisted I meet him somewhere in New Jersey or he would cancel the sale that would raise a red flag for me . . .

[jhs5120]

Depends on what the definition of is is . . .

If I bought something on Ebay and the seller insisted I meet him somewhere in New Jersey or he would cancel the sale that would raise a red flag for me . . .

For a single card, definitely. For 30,000 cards in 40 separate boxes? It's normal (especially if you're practically neighbors).

[jhs5120]

If you undercharged for shipping that is not the buyer's fault.

I 100% agree!

But, this isn't an issue of money. The man who is offering $800 MORE is the one I'd like to avoid. That $800 would easily make up for the extra $50-100 worth of shipping costs I will incur.

If anything, I'm doing him a favor because he paid way too much for these sets.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I would argue that he paid $100 for "economy shipping" which could very well be personal delivery if that is the most economical method of delivery.

I think you're right here. He paid for shipping and, unless you specified a shipping service, how you ship them is up to you. Personally, I would do just as you suggested (as long as it's not a major inconvenience) and deliver them yourself. In fact, he doesn't even have to know it's you that's delivering them. As far as he has to know, it could be a courier service. You have his address from the PayPal notification, deliver them.

[usernamealreadytaken]

Okay, but if under the scenario given, the bed-ridden buyer asks, "Why did you break our deal?" I am not sure what the response would be? "I got screwed before." "You won't let me come to your house."

[bn2cardz]

Andy, signature confirmation would be a must, I agree. I'm just worried he would try something funny down the road. In terms of paper trail, one method I have done before was have a generic document stating the buyer has inspected the item and received it w/o issue. I have him sign it and then I take a picture of his drivers license next to the signature. Usually people don't have an issue.


The way you handle in-person delivery would help deter because even if it wasn't enough with paypal and ebay legally I would think it would be enough for small claims court.

I really am with you, you are constantly told be cautious yet now you are expected to go through with the deal even though your instincts tell you this isn't a good situation.

Until this thread I never even looked into the chargeback fraud, now it has me worried. It seems to me the only way a company could protect both the seller and buyer is if they acted as a shipping company where they took the items and shipped them for you. Similar to COMC or auction houses.

[thecatspajamas]

I would argue that he paid $100 for "economy shipping" which could very well be personal delivery if that is the most economical method of delivery. If he declines I would almost argue that he's the one that is breaching his contract and I have the right to cancel the sale. 5 large boxes with a combined weight of 120-150 pounds all with signature confirmation and $2400 worth of insurance would easily cost more than a 2 hour round trip drive to NYC.

I think the greatest deterrence for a scammer would be showing up at his house and asking him to sign a contract that he received the sets without issue.

So go ahead and do that then. You have the guy's shipping address. Also, be prepared to haul everything back with you if the guy doesn't come to the door when you knock for his signature, which is the same thing the post office or UPS or Fed-Ex or whoever does if the shipment requires signature on delivery and the recipient isn't home. The difference is, they have a facility in the buyer's area, and run a route in his area on a daily basis, so bringing the packages back the next day to try again isn't as big a deal.

[jhs5120]

So go ahead and do that then. You have the guy's shipping address. Also, be prepared to haul everything back with you if the guy doesn't come to the door when you knock for his signature, which is the same thing the post office or UPS or Fed-Ex or whoever does if the shipment requires signature on delivery and the recipient isn't home. The difference is, they have a facility in the buyer's area, and run a route in his area on a daily basis, so bringing the packages back the next day to try again isn't as big a deal.

I have been trying to set up a date with the buyer that works for him. If he really is bed ridden any date should work (hypothetically), but he has not responded to the two emails I have sent him over the past 4 days (which to me is a red flag).

If he does not respond or does not agree; I feel that I am well within my right to cancel the transaction. I shouldn't be obligated to put myself at risk.

[Leon]

I wish it was through my Credit Card company! I would've been on them like a freaking banshee! The buyer cancelled the transaction on his end with his credit card. He paid through PayPal (with his credit card) so PayPal immediately withdrew his funds from my account pending the "investigation".


Andy, signature confirmation would be a must, I agree. I'm just worried he would try something funny down the road. In terms of paper trail, one method I have done before was have a generic document stating the buyer has inspected the item and received it w/o issue. I have him sign it and then I take a picture of his drivers license next to the signature. Usually people don't have an issue.

And that is why I almost always transfer money over approximately $100 from my paypal account to my bank account.

[bn2cardz]

And that is why I almost always transfer money over approximately $100 from my paypal account to my bank account.

Does this really protect you in the long run? Can paypal take the funds from you bank account? If not will they just take the money back via any future sales rendering the account useless to you to use? Or is this just a delay tactic to force paypal to resolve the issue?

[jhs5120]

And that is why I almost always transfer money over approximately $100 from my paypal account to my bank account.

It wouldn't matter. I asked PayPal what would've happened if I didn't have enough funds to cover the $900 taken out of my account. They told me, $900 will still be removed from your account. If there is a negative balance, PayPal will provide a window to add funds to pay off the remainder. If the window passes they will freeze your account until it is paid. Any further delay would result in a collection agency.

Fun.

[Leon]

Does this really protect you in the long run? Can paypal take the funds from you bank account? If not will they just take the money back via any future sales rendering the account useless to you to use? Or is this just a delay tactic to force paypal to resolve the issue?

On one sale it definitely will protect you as there is nothing in your Paypal account for Paypal to take.
I don't think Paypal can generally take money from your bank account BUT they can certainly garnish any monies in your Paypal account. So, if you want to continue using Paypal you will have to deal with them. But I don't leave much in there just in case...I would rather play on my terms than theirs.

[thecatspajamas]

I might also add that I have always turned down offers to personally deliver items to my home for the simple reason that I don't want any schmoe who happens to have something that I want to buy dropping by the house where my wife, 2 young kids, and most of my worldly possessions reside. If the guy is actually bed-ridden, I can hardly blame him for not wanting you or anyone else to see him in that state or to have to trust that the stranger at his door really is only there to deliver the cards and won't take advantage of his disabled state. Sellers aren't the only ones who are allowed to be paranoid or see red flags.

Maybe seeing you face-to-face is enough of a deterrent that the guy won't try anything, or maybe he wouldn't have tried anything to start with. Just don't expect eBay to have your back because you specified vague shipping terms or opted to do something out of the norm that the buyer may or may not agree with. If the neg on eBay is more palatable to you than the risk of a chargeback, then go ahead and do what you've clearly intended to do from the start and cancel the transaction. You haven't presented anything here that would cause eBay/Paypal to side with you in any sort of claim on this transaction though. When it comes to an eBay/Paypal claim, what makes sense to you or what you are comfortable with has no bearing on the outcome, and all else being equal, eBay/Paypal will side with the buyer every time.

[ullmandds]

In light of current conversations about ebay...it seems that per ebay's rules...anytime is a good time to cancel a transaction on ebay!

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

In light of current conversations about ebay...it seems that per ebay's rules...anytime is a good time to cancel a transaction on ebay!

It certainly seems that way.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I might also add that I have always turned down offers to personally deliver items to my home for the simple reason that I don't want any schmoe who happens to have something that I want to buy dropping by the house where my wife, 2 young kids, and most of my worldly possessions reside. If the guy is actually bed-ridden, I can hardly blame him for not wanting you or anyone else to see him in that state or to have to trust that the stranger at his door really is only there to deliver the cards and won't take advantage of his disabled state. Sellers aren't the only ones who are allowed to be paranoid or see red flags.

I agree with this sentiment. That being said I have met with local sellers at public places to pick up the item in the past and it was positive.

[Bocabirdman]

Depends on what the definition of is is . . .

If I bought something on Ebay and the seller insisted I meet him somewhere in New Jersey or he would cancel the sale that would raise a red flag for me . . .

Go to the Pine Barrens and ask for a fella named Vinnie Two-Chins. He'll take care of you.

[veleno45]

I would argue that he paid $100 for "economy shipping" which could very well be personal delivery if that is the most economical method of delivery. If he declines I would almost argue that he's the one that is breaching his contract and I have the right to cancel the sale. 5 large boxes with a combined weight of 120-150 pounds all with signature confirmation and $2400 worth of insurance would easily cost more than a 2 hour round trip drive to NYC.

I think the greatest deterrence for a scammer would be showing up at his house and asking him to sign a contract that he received the sets without issue.

I think if a seller showed up at my door with items that would creep me out a little bit. That is too Craigslist for me.

[Stonepony]

" I have been trying to set up a date with the buyer that works for him. If he really is bed ridden any date should work (hypothetically), but he has not responded to the two emails I have sent him over the past 4 days (which to me is a red flag)."

I've lost track of how many red flags you've accumulated. My opinion is you made the deal and should honor it... Despite it being so dang scary for you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I don't understand why some are making this complicated. All Jason has to do is tell the buyer that he is sending the boxes via currier, and make arrangements for the buyer to be there at a certain day/time for delivery. A currier service is very reasonable in this case given the distance and the weight. Instead of using an actual service, Jason makes the delivery himself. The buyer never knows the difference. See how simple?

[bn2cardz]

" I have been trying to set up a date with the buyer that works for him. If he really is bed ridden any date should work (hypothetically), but he has not responded to the two emails I have sent him over the past 4 days (which to me is a red flag)."

I've lost track of how many red flags you've accumulated. My opinion is you made the deal and should honor it... Despite it being so dang scary for you.

Yeah who cares that you might loose out on $2700. Just like if you reply to an email from a Nigerian prince saying you will give him your bank account info when you get home. You better follow through no matter how much common sense tells you something is wrong. :rolleyes: