The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[the 'stache]

Ok, I just signed up for VCP for the first time ever. I'm looking to make a considerable (well, considerable for me) bid on a card, and I'm looking at the price history for the card-same back, exact same PSA grade. But the recent buy history is all over the place on VCP, and by a variance that seems way out of what one would expect. I've also checked Card Target as well as Ebay's history, and what I'm seeing appears to be accurate.

Here's the VCP price history for this particular card:

http://imageshack.com/a/img843/436/m5r4.png

Notice who has the two sales that are way out of whack? I checked the images captured for these sales, and looked at the card for sale. This is now the third time PWCC has sold this card. The exact same card. In the last fourteen months.

This particular card is stunning for its grade. The back appears clean, and to be honest, I'm not sure why it's so low. I'm not wanting to out the auction, so I'm not going to post any pictures here. Some of you, hell most of you, will probably be able to find the card. But I'm willing to bid $1,000 for this. I really want it, and looking at the recent sales for this particular card and grade, you'd think I would have a good chance. But am I just wasting my time? I understand the thinking "don't try to buy from a small handful of sellers because of some of the funny numbers that we see." But my options are to let this card go by, a card which looks better than some of the 4s, and even 5s that I've seen, or put that bid in, and probably have my heart broken, only to see the card go up again for sale in a few months.

I'm in no rush to buy this card, or any other. But when one comes available and it pretty much exactly meets what I'm looking for in a card, I want to have a fair chance at getting it.

I'd love some input here from our experienced buyers and sellers. Thank you so much!

[bobbyw8469]

If the card really looks that nice for the grade, I don't think $1,000 will win it. It is also no coincidence that PWCC is the one selling it. He tends to get record prices. He also tends to get higher quality cards for the grade. $1,000 would be a record low for this card, since it sold for $1,400 and $1,200 respectively.

[the 'stache]

I guess I'll wait then. Makes no sense that 4s were selling in August and September for $1,000 and below, now a 3.5 is going to go for 20-25% more than a 4 did just 7 months ago.

I can probably find one just as nice for that amount or slightly less if I'm patient.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you're going to bid in PWCC, be prepared to pay a world record price and to battle bidders with high numbers of retractions.

[the 'stache]

Ya, it's not worth it. There are other nice examples that won't make it into his hands. Sure would be nice if i could make a strong bid, and expect the seller to be professional.

[bobbyw8469]

All the professional sellers "other" than PWCC and Probstein get tired of seeing their similar items sell for peanuts while lesser quality examples from the BIG TWO sellers bring a whole lot more money. It is a vicious cycle, that unfortunately only benefits the big two sellers and no one else. As long as those two get the stupid high prices, they will be the ones getting the cards.

[Bestdj777]

If you are willing to pay a certain price for it, why not just place the bid and take a chance? I've lucked out and gotten cards from PWWC for substantially less than I thought they were worth in the past.

[Leon]

Put in the price you want to pay and if you get it great, if not, then there will probably be another. I have won from both Probstein and PWCC for less than my max snipe. I wish all sellers would nix the a-holes with a million bid retractions but it doesn't happen. So bid what you want and don't worry about it. As we have all seen, VCP and guides are just that, guides. The best cards, regardless of holder, bring the best money. Don't expect a great looking (for the grade) card to go for a moderate price. I, and others, will gladly pay more for a better card in a lesser holder than vice-versa.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Don't expect a great looking (for the grade) card to go for a moderate price. .

Yeah, when buying. When selling, on the other hand....

[Leon]

Yeah, when buying. When selling, on the other hand....

The Goudey Ruth I recently bought, and the Young you recently bought, will both bring above average prices when sold because they are above average (for their technical grade) cards. I think you are a bit pessimistic. :) On the other hand, when a super rare but less collected card goes for strong money, then when the selling time comes, there could be a huge discount from the buy price. (too thin of a market on the demand side)

[nolemmings]

I think you are a bit pessimistic

This just in. :)

[auggiedoggy]

What have you got to lose by bidding your limit? Place your bid and see what happens. I won a PWCC auction about a year ago on a high value, sought after hockey card and did not pay a ridiculous amount. In fact, the sell price was quite fair for that card.

[smtjoy]

I would stay far away. The same card selling for the 4th time by the seller in less than 2 years has red flags all over it. I would guess the card never really sold, won by the consignor (or one of their extra/friends accounts) then relisted hoping that someone looking at past auctions sales would feel that the market price has been set. These are the listings were VCP is well worth the cost.

[ctownboy]

I wouldn't bid either.

If the same exact card has come up in the same exact auction company at least twice before and each time it has sold for prices well above what similar cards have sold for in other venues then it would seem something funny might be going on.

Look, you have already outed the venue and how much you are willing to pay so it probably wont take much for a person interested in this card to find out what card you are talking about. If shenanigans ARE going on then all the seller (or venue) has to do is bid you up to your $1000 dollar max level.

Sure you get the card you want at the price you want but if the card had never really sold twice previously and the next highest price card sold last 9/13 for $863.50 then did you REALLY get a good deal?

David

[rhettyeakley]

Somewhere out there in cyberspace someone reading this just entered a $999 snipe! ;)

[glchen]

If this is a t206, are the backs the same including factory number when comparing the cards on vcp?

[Brian Van Horn]

Interesting and concerning data. I would avoid bidding.

[Koufax32fan]

Bill - when the auction is over, please let us know what the card is.

[frankbmd]

Bill - when the auction is over, please let us know what the card is.

......and then we'll tell you what you should have done.:eek:

[ullmandds]

Chalk this one off to a bad idea!

[x2drich2000]

Personally, I would be hesitant to bid. If it is the card I think it is, the current one is the same cert as the one that sold for $1255. However, I believe that is also nicer than the one that sold for $710 on ebay and $862 in Sterling (which are the same exact card). If I had to bid, I would think it should go between the Sterling price and the most recent ebay price.

DJ

[1880nonsports]

Paraphrasing a bit but the simplicity of Leon's point (and others) has merit for many situations - one is never really sure about what minipulations to a card's pricing structure may have taken place outside one's view - bid or pay what you feel comfortable with and don't worry about the things you can't control. It seems a great deal of thought goes into each of your posts - mine not so much :-) Given that - I'm thinking you would be better off just passing altogether - I'm afraid you would always be questioning the purchase even if it was the card you wanted at a price you were comfortable with. As mentioned earlier in the thread - there are MANY red flags and many reasons to wait on another including the idea that it's reasonable to expect other cards in the appropriate grade and price will become available to you.
There's always an issue to grapple with as a collector - especially when money is a part of the equation. I try and take a measured approach that allows me to enjoy my hobby without adding too much stress to my life - after all I have a hobby to reduce my stress!
I'm sure in the long run you'll make a reasoned decision. Good luck whatever you decide............

[the 'stache]

Bill - when the auction is over, please let us know what the card is.

The card was a T206 Walter Johnson portrait PSA 3.5.

An hour before close, the card sat at $950.00, which is pretty much where I expected it to be at pre PWCC BS. Then a bidder with 44 feedback bumps it to $1,109.00.

Then look what happened to the bids. Suspicious, that's an understatement.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206-Walter-Johnson-PORTRAIT-PSA-3-5-VG-PWCC-/351058857704

http://imageshack.com/a/img838/9441/bao3.png

It's possible that one of the bidders you're seeing here after the $950.00 price is reached is legit, but the rest? Highly doubtful.

With less than a minute left before auction close, the price stood at $1,206.00. Then two bids from a buyer with a 0 feedback score, and a bid from a buyer with 11 feedback bump it $169 in the last 60 seconds to a closing price of $1,375.00.

Looks like PWCC will be selling this one again. But there's certainly nothing shady going on here /wink wink.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

The bidding activity by "0" looks suspicious but could be legit. I know I have made similar bids in the past in an effort to win below my target price.

[calvindog]

It's a PWCC auction. How many times do you have to be told and shown that rampant fraud exists in their auctions? This one included. If you win a card in his auction, assume you've been ripped off -- it's a good assumption.

[glchen]

Bill, I think the backs are different in the VCP you showed on the first page.

[the 'stache]

It's a PWCC auction. How many times do you have to be told and shown that rampant fraud exists in their auctions? This one included. If you win a card in his auction, assume you've been ripped off -- it's a good assumption.

Dummy me, I got drawn in by a really great looking card. I won't make the same mistake again.

Bill, I think the backs are different in the VCP you showed on the first page.

I selected Piedmont and Sweet Cap for the backs, Gary. Did I do something wrong? This card is a Sweet Cap 150 back. It's not rare.

[wolf441]

[QUOTE=the 'stache;1272517]Dummy me, I got drawn in by a really great looking card. I won't make the same mistake again.


Sorry Bill,

That is my favorite card in the set, but I wouldn't dip my feet into that pool. Reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live skit for "Bad Idea Jeans". "I was going wear a condom, but then I thought, when am I ever going to get back to Haiti??!!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL did you really think you had a chance to win it? :D

[glchen]

...
I selected Piedmont and Sweet Cap for the backs, Gary. Did I do something wrong? This card is a Sweet Cap 150 back. It's not rare.

Bill, there may be nothing wrong at all. It is simply that when you compare items via VCP, it is better to compare apples to apples rather than apples to oranges. That is, just compare exact items to exact items so that there is no confusion. I am far, far from a T206 expert as I don't even collect the set. However, I believe some of the factory numbers for the backs are rarer for some of backs. It may have absolutely no relevance in this case. However, it's still better to show all of the information so that the reader can make their own judgments in this situation.

[bobbyw8469]

It's a PWCC auction. How many times do you have to be told and shown that rampant fraud exists in their auctions? This one included. If you win a card in his auction, assume you've been ripped off -- it's a good assumption.


While that is true for the most part, I personally, have consigned quite a few items with PWCC. I have also lost money on a lot of items as well.

[Exhibitman]

I would stay far away. The same card selling for the 4th time by the seller in less than 2 years has red flags all over it. I would guess the card never really sold, won by the consignor (or one of their extra/friends accounts) then relisted hoping that someone looking at past auctions sales would feel that the market price has been set. These are the listings were VCP is well worth the cost.


+1. If you lay down with dogs don't whine about the fleas.

[GoudeyGum]

This particular card is stunning for its grade.

Is it possible that this isn't true when the card is seen in person? Whenever I purchase a card from scans that "is stunning for its grade", when it arrives in the mail, I always say "Oh, well that explains it". In other words, maybe there is a wrinkle or something that isn't showing in the scans. This could also be a simple explanation this card's churn in the market. Just a thought. I have no pony in the pwcc debate. Even if the card is as clean as it is in the scan, I don't like the chunk missing from the upper left corner, and would not have paid a premium for the grade. You'll find another.

[Runscott]

...

[CW]

...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is it possible that this isn't true when the card is seen in person? Whenever I purchase a card from scans that "is stunning for its grade", when it arrives in the mail, I always say "Oh, well that explains it". In other words, maybe there is a wrinkle or something that isn't showing in the scans. This could also be a simple explanation this card's churn in the market. Just a thought. I have no pony in the pwcc debate. Even if the card is as clean as it is in the scan, I don't like the chunk missing from the upper left corner, and would not have paid a premium for the grade. You'll find another.

All cards look better with those super bright scans.

[GregMitch34]

Well, I won a top-graded card tonight at PWCC for less than two-thirds what I expected to pay. I guess the shill bidders were on a bathroom break...or just too many cards closing about the same time to bid up all of them...

[1880nonsports]

FWIW I sold a nice SGC 50 late 2012 for 850.00. It was among the last couple of cards I sold - if not the last one (although it might have been the Matty........) that I parted with when bowing to the monster maybe 1/2 way through.
It's easy to suggest price-minipulation and much harder to prove it. The numbers reflected in past sales prices regardless of the venue one chooses to assess them are only as good as the factual information that goes into making them - these calculations are inherently flawed based on how the TPG's monitor the actual populations of each card (including crossing and resubmitting) and how actual sale prices are often obfuscated by BIN's, or not accurately reflecting private sales, best offers and other BS including shilling and dishonesty. A couple of companies have been mentioned here by name as at the very least not taking responsibility for monitoring their auctions and allowing for an over abundance of bidders with more retractions than what I imagine is the aggregate total of retractions by our total community in their lifetimes.
As evidenced from the 9 pages of history on card target - they're out there and the patient collector is rewarded more often then not.........

[the 'stache]

LOL did you really think you had a chance to win it? :D

Well, based on where it was at with under an hour to go ($950), and knowing I'd decided to go up to $1,100, I thought I had at least a chance. When I saw what it was doing in the last minute before close, it flew right by my max, so it wasn't even worth trying.

Bill, there may be nothing wrong at all. It is simply that when you compare items via VCP, it is better to compare apples to apples rather than apples to oranges. That is, just compare exact items to exact items so that there is no confusion. I am far, far from a T206 expert as I don't even collect the set. However, I believe some of the factory numbers for the backs are rarer for some of backs. It may have absolutely no relevance in this case. However, it's still better to show all of the information so that the reader can make their own judgments in this situation.

You're right, Gary, there are various Piedmont and Sweet Caporal Backs that are comparatively more rare than others. But I examined the card in question, which was Sweet Cap 150 subjects, factory 30. According to T206resource.com's (http://t206resource.com/Back%20Rankings%20List.html) back scarcity ranking, that was #34 out of 39 total backs. It's a very common back that would command virtually no premium.

Is it possible that this isn't true when the card is seen in person? Whenever I purchase a card from scans that "is stunning for its grade", when it arrives in the mail, I always say "Oh, well that explains it". In other words, maybe there is a wrinkle or something that isn't showing in the scans. This could also be a simple explanation this card's churn in the market. Just a thought. I have no pony in the pwcc debate. Even if the card is as clean as it is in the scan, I don't like the chunk missing from the upper left corner, and would not have paid a premium for the grade. You'll find another.

I took the scan into Photoshop, and inverted it, then zoomed in to 300%. There are no visible wrinkles or creases. They would show up very easily as white lines. I then examined it without invesrion, changing the brightness and contrast both looking for any colorization that would hide flaws. I also played with the curves. I didn't find anything out of the norm.

As for the chunk missing in the upper left corner, I was ok with it. The corners, more than anything, lowered the overall grade, especially after my examination. But I was ok with that. The card, overall, presents beautifully. The centering is not perfect, but pretty darned close to it. And, there were no blemishes on the card's surface whatsoever. I thought it was a beautiful card, and even though it was PWCC auctioning it off, I considered going after it.

I had to bite my tongue when I saw this thread posted, as I had an aggressive snipe set for this card earlier today. I was the underbidder in one of the previous sales (the $1421.66 one).

For the record, I emailed Brent both in the first auction and also prior to this one to confirm that this card has absolutely no creases or wrinkles. That can be a key factor to me and my bidding strategy, as this card had everything going for it (other than the corner wear). So, Bill, you obviously have a good eye! ;)

Needless to say, after reading this thread and hearing the opinions of several members for whom I have much respect, I also backed off. Granted, I still placed a bid, because it's a sweet card regardless of it being PWCC, but I reduced it enough to where I didn't even show up in the bidding history, and I would've been thrilled to win it at my snipe.

After seeing the feedback of the #1 and #2 bidders, I very glad I saw this thread and backed off.

Thank you, Chuck. I've worked hard to develop a pretty good eye. I know I'm never going to be able to afford some of the higher graded cards, so if I can find a card with a relatively minor flaw that doesn't subtract from the card's overall visual appeal, I'll go after it so long as it's financially prudent.

One thing though. In the future, if you or any other board member suspects that I'm about to bid on a card that you've already placed a bid on, please message me. I will not knowingly bid against my fellow board members. I've already dropped out on one card when this happened. God willing, I've got a lot of life ahead of me, so there will be other opportunities to get what I want. :)

This is all a learning experience for me. I know I'm better off looking for what I want here, or looking for other sellers on Ebay. Lesson learned.

[calvindog]

It's easy to suggest price-minipulation and much harder to prove it.

Why is it always the PWCC and Probstein auctions which have bidding histories littered with 0 and low feedback bidders, bidders with huge amounts of retractions and bidders who bid almost totally with just that seller's auctions? Why does that never happen in my auctions? Oh and why is it that PWCC auctions always have scans which are so bright that surely some darn setting must have been mistakenly made on their scanner?

[t206hof]

I know both probstein and PWCC have alot of bid retractions. But with Probstein I am actually able to win a few things at good prices, I cannot say the same for PWCC.

[Mikehealer]

Why is it always the PWCC and Probstein auctions which have bidding histories littered with 0 and low feedback bidders, bidders with huge amounts of retractions and bidders who bid almost totally with just that seller's auctions? Why does that never happen in my auctions? Oh and why is it that PWCC auctions always have scans which are so bright that surely some darn setting must have been mistakenly made on their scanner?

I'm sure it's just a coincidence!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why is it always the PWCC and Probstein auctions which have bidding histories littered with 0 and low feedback bidders, bidders with huge amounts of retractions and bidders who bid almost totally with just that seller's auctions? Why does that never happen in my auctions? Oh and why is it that PWCC auctions always have scans which are so bright that surely some darn setting must have been mistakenly made on their scanner?

How cool would it be to hit the trifecta -- an "improved" card, made to look even better by an overly-bright scan, shilled up to a world record price?

[Exhibitman]

Why is it always the PWCC and Probstein auctions which have bidding histories littered with 0 and low feedback bidders, bidders with huge amounts of retractions and bidders who bid almost totally with just that seller's auctions? Why does that never happen in my auctions? Oh and why is it that PWCC auctions always have scans which are so bright that surely some darn setting must have been mistakenly made on their scanner?

I blame society

[jhs5120]

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?

On a side note I sold a card that went for $40 and has a VCP around $120 last night. There are a lot of good deals through PWCC.... if you can find auctions that aren't shilled.

[bobbyw8469]

On a side note I sold a card that went for $40 and has a VCP around $120 last night. There are a lot of good deals through PWCC.... if you can find auctions that aren't shilled.

+1....I too, gave some cards away thru PWCC last night. There are deals to be had...you just have to know what you are looking for.

[the-illini]

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?



Doesn't ebay have a feature that allows sellers to block bidders with very low feedback?

[calvindog]

Doesn't ebay have a feature that allows sellers to block bidders with very low feedback?

It's a shame ebay doesn't have a feature to block crooked sellers.

[calvindog]

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?



Yes, I blame the scanner. Because after all, an honest guy like Brent whose auctions are littered with fraud would never have misleading scans as well -- because that might suggest he's dishonest.

[MattyC]

The scans are definitely brighter and bolder and thus not representative of the card in hand. I think anyone bidding on these must take this into consideration. The scans are so cartoonish sometimes and thus so obvious, I can't fathom why PWCC hasn't gone to normal scans. I guess not as obvious to all.

There's no denying that some PWCC auctions are shilled-- but there's also no denying that some aren't shilled. This leads me to parse the issues of the scans and the shilling. I would bet the shilling is being done by the owners of the cards themselves, as opposed to Brent commanding a legion of guys with shill accounts, masterminding which auctions to hit and which to leave alone, like some Lex Luthor super villain.

Now whether it is incumbent or not on an entity like PWCC to vet each individual auction for its duration, canceling suspected shill bids, that is an entirely separate conversation of course. I'd think hiring one dedicated person by the hour to man an email "hotline" and cancel reported shill bids would not be so expensive, and do wonders for reputation, engendering goodwill and thus business.

[bobbyw8469]

The shilling is obvious when he has two of the exact same cards up for bids. For example, 1962 Juan Marichal rookie card SGC 7. When one of the 7's is markedly better than the other one, yet the inferior 7 is double what the better example is - that tells me shill bidding is going on.

[Iron Horse]

The shown example to me is a great looking card & should sell for $1200-1250 or that is what i would be willing to pay. Card is not altered because it has huge white borders.
I would have put a snipe at 1250 and if i won great if not then so be it.
I did end up winning a high end card yesterday which i feel sold for the correct price.
I always look to see who the other bidders are in PWCC auctions. If they do not have more then 2-3 retractions i consider them real. If i see others with tons of retractions i stay away, or just put a snipe for what i feel the card is worth to me.
Enjoy this great hobby :)

[MattyC]

The shown example to me is a great looking card & should sell for $1200-1250 or that is what i would be willing to pay. Card is not altered because it has huge white borders.
I would have put a snipe at 1250 and if i won great if not then so be it.
I did end up winning a high end card yesterday which i feel sold for the correct price.
I always look to see who the other bidders are in PWCC auctions. If they do not have more then 2-3 retractions i consider them real. If i see others with tons of retractions i stay away, or just put a snipe for what i feel the card is worth to me.
Enjoy this great hobby :)

100% agree.

[CharleyBrown]

Ruben - that wasn't you that won the that e121 Ruth that was auctioned off for the 2nd time in 2 months by PWCC, was it?

[jhs5120]

The shown example to me is a great looking card & should sell for $1200-1250 or that is what i would be willing to pay. Card is not altered because it has huge white borders.
I would have put a snipe at 1250 and if i won great if not then so be it.
I did end up winning a high end card yesterday which i feel sold for the correct price.
I always look to see who the other bidders are in PWCC auctions. If they do not have more then 2-3 retractions i consider them real. If i see others with tons of retractions i stay away, or just put a snipe for what i feel the card is worth to me.
Enjoy this great hobby :)

+1

Set a snipe for what you're willing to pay and you'll always be a happy camper!

[chernieto]

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?

On a side note I sold a card that went for $40 and has a VCP around $120 last night. There are a lot of good deals through PWCC.... if you can find auctions that aren't shilled.

I agree. Brent has done an incredible job creating monthly auctions that get more views than my or most board member listings. More viewers , more bids. & strangely I have done MUCH better as a buyer- getting great deals than as a consignor. When there are 100's of T206's listed at .99cent starting price some cards can slip though the cracks-I've caught some. Other cards lke a Johnson portrait most likely won't slip through.That being said I respect Brent and his auction. I believe he is earning good money on his auctions and has integrity and would
no more intentionally Shill an auction than any of us would.

[glchen]

Ruben - that wasn't you that won the that e121 Ruth that was auctioned off for the 2nd time in 2 months by PWCC, was it?

My guess is that he outgunned me on the E103 Wagner from PWCC. :(

[GregMitch34]

Like I noted earlier, I won this card there last night at a great price (unless I'm missing something). Has happened before when, as others suggest, you stick with a fair or even "bargain" top bid and stick with it. http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143414&stc=1&d=1399307655

[Runscott]

I agree. Brent has done an incredible job creating monthly auctions that get more views than my or most board member listings. More viewers , more bids. & strangely I have done MUCH better as a buyer- getting great deals than as a consignor. When there are 100's of T206's listed at .99cent starting price some cards can slip though the cracks-I've caught some. Other cards lke a Johnson portrait most likely won't slip through.That being said I respect Brent and his auction. I believe he is earning good money on his auctions and has integrity and would
no more intentionally Shill an auction than any of us would.

It sounds like the blind guys in this thread are buying cards from each other, but paying a consignment fee to do so. You should introduce yourselves to one another and save some bucks.

[chernieto]

It sounds like the blind guys in this thread are buying cards from each other, but paying a consignment fee to do so. You should introduce yourselves to one another and save some bucks.

I don't know Scott ...when I got a beautiful T206 graded SGC 7.5 for $ 369 in one of his auctions in the fall I was happy. If you have T206's graded like that with no issues & a price like that please let me know.

Reminds me of some lines from an old favorite song


"Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says, "Don't you see?
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up,"
from the Grateful Dead

Paul C

[glchen]

The problem is that there are very few true auctions that start at 99 cents on ebay anymore, especially for high end stuff like what PWCC often sells. I think as a buyer, you just need to examine the auction bidding to see if anything strange is going on, decide on a fair price if you believe for the card if you still want to bid, and then go on from there.

[bobbyw8469]

I don't know Scott ...when I got a beautiful T206 graded SGC 7.5 for $ 369 in one of his auctions in the fall I was happy. If you have T206's graded like that with no issues & a price like that please let me know.

Reminds me of some lines from an old favorite song


"Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says, "Don't you see?
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up,"
from the Grateful Dead

Paul C

The ironic thing about selling on the board is this. Not all the time, but sometimes, I will have a high profile, high demand card (like a Sandy Koufax/Roberto Clemente rookie card). I have a low price on Net54 but still get lowball offers. When I put the card on Ebay, I obviously get more than what I was asking for on Net54. Maybe the buyers here are too finnicky?

[4815162342]

The shown example to me is a great looking card & should sell for $1200-1250 or that is what i would be willing to pay. Card is not altered because it has huge white borders.
I would have put a snipe at 1250 and if i won great if not then so be it.
I did end up winning a high end card yesterday which i feel sold for the correct price.
I always look to see who the other bidders are in PWCC auctions. If they do not have more then 2-3 retractions i consider them real. If i see others with tons of retractions i stay away, or just put a snipe for what i feel the card is worth to me.
Enjoy this great hobby :)

100% agree.

+1

Set a snipe for what you're willing to pay and you'll always be a happy camper!

I know it's been said before, but does it not make you sick to think that the amount you think a card is worth has potentially been poisoned by previously shilled auction results? It makes me want to throw up.

[Leon]

The ironic thing about selling on the board is this. Not all the time, but sometimes, I will have a high profile, high demand card (like a Sandy Koufax/Roberto Clemente rookie card). I have a low price on Net54 but still get lowball offers. When I put the card on Ebay, I obviously get more than what I was asking for on Net54. Maybe the buyers here are too finnicky?

Maybe.....Everyone wants a GREAT deal and a lot of folks think that in a straight buy (as is on the BST) they are not getting a steal? That being said I have bought and sold a fair amount on the BST and it's all been fine. Some things I have listed, didn't sell. Not a big deal. I was out the few minutes it took me to list there.... I have watched lizards mating on a fence and wasted more time :).

[ullmandds]

I know it's been said before, but does it not make you sick to think that the amount you think a card is worth has potentially been poisoned by previously shilled auction results? It makes me want to throw up.

Exactly...to the point that I'd guess lots of cards values are artificially inflated.

[chernieto]

The ironic thing about selling on the board is this. Not all the time, but sometimes, I will have a high profile, high demand card (like a Sandy Koufax/Roberto Clemente rookie card). I have a low price on Net54 but still get lowball offers. When I put the card on Ebay, I obviously get more than what I was asking for on Net54. Maybe the buyers here are too finnicky?

Interesting thought!

[drcy]

I've sold and auctioned here at B/S/T. I've had people buy at my asking price and stuff that went unsold. I've mostly sold lesser priced odds and ends. It's got a smaller and closed to members audience, so you won't always match a product to a collector, but it's a decent market place. As I mostly follow the Pre-War discussions, I don't know how many members are the types looking for Clemente and Koufax rookies.

Even if you like eBay, it's good to have multiple places to sell. Depending on just one place can backfire in the long run. And B/S/T is another place to sell. I would imagine there would be little stuff I'd sell here that might sit around forever in the sea that is eBay.

I agree with the earlier comment that, what some people consider market price, involves shilling. They often realize this when they turn to sell. This is why it's important for collectors to sell once in a while-- to have a feel for what the market is really like and what selling really involves. Also, people who go strictly by others' sales prices, tend to naturally focus on the highest (record) prices and get a distorted view of value due to that. It's human nature. If a non-selling card sells elsewhere for $200, $250 and $300 in honest auctions, a collector might consciously or nonconsciously think "It's sold as high as $300. My card is worth $300." Real world selling can shake some of the cognitive biases from your head.

One thing I've always recommended is that collectors sell at least one in a while, even if that just means consigning. Keeps them in touch with the real world. And real world pricing isn't what REA or Heritage gets or what VCP lists or what you'd theoretically get by analyzing others auctions. Real world pricing is what you get when you sell, and real world selling is the act of selling. If you don't know what I mean by real world selling, do some selling. As Alfred Hitchcock said, "A movie is real life with the boring parts cut out." Day dream selling is selling without the time, email tag, unreasonable buyers, packaging tape, boredom, standing in line at the post office, unanticipated costs and searching alley dumpsters for right sized cardboard boxes.

[bobbyw8469]

I have watched lizards mating on a fence and wasted more time

Leon...my girlfriend would LOVE to do that!! As long as we were in Cozumel, St Thomas, or somewhere else tropical while we were doing that! :p

[jhs5120]

Exactly...to the point that I'd guess lots of cards values are artificially inflated.

Wait a minute, you're saying these tiny cardboard cutouts that we're paying thousands of dollars for may be artificially inflated? No way.

[bobbyw8469]

wait a minute, you're saying these tiny cardboard cutouts that we're paying thousands of dollars for may be artificially inflated? No way.

lol!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The problem is that there are very few true auctions that start at 99 cents on ebay anymore, especially for high end stuff like what PWCC often sells. I think as a buyer, you just need to examine the auction bidding to see if anything strange is going on, decide on a fair price if you believe for the card if you still want to bid, and then go on from there.

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

[glchen]

Wait a minute, you're saying these tiny cardboard cutouts that we're paying thousands of dollars for may be artificially inflated? No way.

Right, seriously. If the card market ever crashed to pennies, no noncollector would have any sympathy. They would be thinking what were these idiots thinking spending thousands of dollars on pieces of cardboard. At least with art, it is studied in school, and shown in world class museums. Coins and stamps have a country's history. Even comic books can be made into movies that make hundreds of millions of dollars. Baseball movies are lucky to get close to $100 million during their entire run.

[Runscott]

Reminds me of some lines from an old favorite song


"Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says, "Don't you see?
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up,"
from the Grateful Dead

Paul C

Just squeeze a little harder and you'll realize it's your own hand.

[glchen]

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

Peter, even Jeff (calvindog) has bid and won from PWCC as recently as around a year ago, and don't tell me PWCC was "clean" before this ...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, even Jeff (calvindog) has bid and won from PWCC as recently as around a year ago, and don't tell me PWCC was "clean" before this ...

So what? Jeff doesn't dictate right or wrong, does he?

[jhs5120]

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

Or you could buy wherever you can find a nice card for a reasonable price. If I eliminated every shady character from my search I would be left buying cards from no one.

[MattyC]

If I found it bothersome that any price paid may be artificially inflated (due to a shilled auction in the recent or distant past), to the point where I couldn't get past it, then I would just stop buying cards. We waste hundreds if not thousands on bar tabs, hands of blackjack, bottles of wine at a dinner, and so much other stuff that paying a potentially inflated price on a card to the tune of a few hundo because of a shilled auction in the past just doesn't make my blood boil or stomach turn. If the card is beautiful, smokes other ugly examples, I want it, and can pay a price I can afford, I'm making it happen. Nice and simple. This is just one dude's view, riffing with others, not trying to proselytize.

[calvindog]

If I found it bothersome that any price paid may be artificially inflated (due to a shilled auction in the recent or distant past), to the point where I couldn't get past it, then I would just stop buying cards. We waste hundreds if not thousands on bar tabs, hands of blackjack, bottles of wine at a dinner, and so much other stuff that paying a potentially inflated price on a card to the tune of a few hundo because of a shilled auction in the past just doesn't make my blood boil or stomach turn. If the card is beautiful, smokes other ugly examples, I want it, and can pay a price I can afford, I'm making it happen. Nice and simple. This is just one dude's view, riffing with others, not trying to proselytize.

And that's exactly what criminals like Bill Mastro think when they're engaging in their fraud: 'they want the card anyway, why is shilling it up a problem?' Hell, Bill still thinks that and he's cooperating with the Feds against other criminals in our hobby.

[chernieto]

Just squeeze a little harder and you'll realize it's your own hand.

When I looked at your web page I thought to myself...man ...who would offer a T206 SGC 30 common for $49.00 & call me blind for saying PWCC is ok. I am not looking for a fight, but my vision is A.O.K & don't appreciate you calling me blind because I have gotten good deals on PWCC ( and Probstein) & compared to you website....I could see how you are in search of blind buyers.....
PWCC seems down right cheap compared to your listings ....& no shills on your listings....

[MattyC]

Right, seriously. If the card market ever crashed to pennies, no noncollector would have any sympathy. They would be thinking what were these idiots thinking spending thousands of dollars on pieces of cardboard. At least with art, it is studied in school, and shown in world class museums. Coins and stamps have a country's history. Even comic books can be made into movies that make hundreds of millions of dollars. Baseball movies are lucky to get close to $100 million during their entire run.


I respectfully couldn't disagree with this more. So comics are somehow inherently more valuable than cards because they can be made into terrible yet high grossing films? Coins and stamps have a country's history, and cards are part of sports history-- and sports are deeply woven into America's cultural fabric. Art is studied in school, but what makes a Basquiat worth millions and some other brilliant but unhyped artists never makes it big in the art world? There are politics and shadiness at play in the art collecting world, from authentic pieces that an estate doesn't want to dub legit, to the hype that certain influential players can give, which in turn blows up an artists' prices. Look at how attention from the Shafrazis and Gagosians of the art world can affect an artists' prices. And art is the zenith of subjectivity; in contrast a card's rarity, popularity, and the stature of the player depicted are pretty quantifiable, at least relative to justifying why one artist or art work is worth X and another worth Y.

[Runscott]

I can't believe what I read in these threads about shilling.

Seriously - do you take the attitude that because you personally can't stop all crime, that crime is okay and we should ignore it, as long as it doesn't affect us personally?

[MattyC]

And that's exactly what criminals like Bill Mastro think when they're engaging in their fraud: 'they want the card anyway, why is shilling it up a problem?' Hell, Bill still thinks that and he's cooperating with the Feds against other criminals in our hobby.

So is the answer, by that logic, to stop collecting? I agree the criminals are out there, that we have to be able to identify and steer around shilled auctions, but one can't let awareness of the fraud paralyze them from enjoyment, or from obtaining the items they love. There has to be a balance within the collector.

No Scott, I'm not saying that at all. But I also don't give up my current life to be a policeman or vigilante by night. If you want to stop collecting because there are shillers out there, go for it. Willingness to bid in unshilled auctions does not mean someone condones shilling. Willingness to buy cards when prices in general may be inflated here and there due to past shilling is also not condoning shilling. If I see it I will report it. If I see it I will abstain. If I have a friend pursuing a card I see is being shilled, I will put him onto it. But I won't let the existence of shilling stop me from collecting, or dominate my mind to the point where I spend more time talking about shilling on a website than I do enjoying cards. It's about balance and enjoyment, and not crossing the line from cautious, educated collector into paralyzed collector/crusader.

[chernieto]

I can't believe what I read in these threads about shilling.

Seriously - do you take the attitude that because you personally can't stop all crime, that crime is okay and we should ignore it, as long as it doesn't affect us personally?

I hope nobody believes that!
shilling is wrong and a crime

[glchen]

Matt, I can see where you're coming from for comic books, but baseball cards are just pieces of cardboard. It's like the ultimate non-gold standard currency. There's nothing behind it but pure faith. And they were mass produced. And how about non sports cards like Pokémon cards. People can say it's the same thing, entertainment, sports, etc... Art is very subjective, true, but it's always going to be studied in schools, and always going to be considered a "higher" form of culture than sports. I'm not saying that I would be any of these pieces of art that sell for millions which look like my two year old could have done or even if some Monet is really worth $100+ million. However, those collectibles seem to be more a fabric of society than cards are. If Van Gogh's starting selling for $10, it would be headline news, and people would start thinking it's like another Cultural Revolution in China, which wasn't a good thing. The same reaction wouldn't happen for cards.

[glchen]

I hope nobody believes that!
shilling is wrong and a crime

I think most people, myself include, believe that shilling is wrong, and is a crime. However, some people are arguing that they will try to find those auctions that they don't believe are shilled and try to bid on those. However, Peter and others, are advocating the higher road, in that they believe that since PWCC may be encouraging shilling or at the minimum not doing anything about it, they should be boycotted for all of their listings even the ones that don't seem to be shilled. I mean if you take this further, you shouldn't buy or sell on ebay at all since ebay isn't doing diddly either, and making it even harder to determine shilling these days by making the ebay usernames who win or bid on auctions even more anonymous than before.

[Runscott]

So is the answer, by that logic, to stop collecting? I agree the criminals are out there, that we have to be able to identify and steer around shilled auctions, but one can't let awareness of the fraud paralyze them from enjoyment, of from obtaining the items they love. There has to be a balance within the collector.

Where did you come up with such logic? From 'avoid known cheats' to 'avoid everyone'? :confused: The balance you speak of is achieved by avoiding dishonest sellers. Many of us do so, and our collections are not bad.

I have not studied PWCC or Probstein's auctions and bidding history, and I have ignored most of the posts that do so, but it's hard to ignore the responses in these discussions that advocate complacency when shilling is discovered.

[MattyC]

One could just as easily say a Warhol is merely some canvas and paint. It's all so subjective. I personally don't believe in comparing one realm of collectible to another. Some cards were mass produced, others are in incredibly low supply relative to demand. One cannot underestimate people's love of sport, sports icons, and all the nostalgia as well.

Art being considered "higher" troubles me. To be clear, not saying you are saying that. But for those who would, it's kind of a pretentious, condescending attitude. There is room in a society for for both fine art and for sport. And one could contend sport is far more popular than art in society. I'm not someone who's big into prognostications but I don't see high end art or high end baseball cards becoming worthless in my lifetime.

[Runscott]

I mean if you take this further, you shouldn't buy or sell on ebay at all since ebay isn't doing diddly either, and making it even harder to determine shilling these days by making the ebay usernames who win or bid on auctions even more anonymous than before.

There is crime on our planet; therefore, I am leaving.

[jhs5120]

The only way to stop shilling is to pay what you believe a card is worth.

[MattyC]

Where did you come up with such logic? From 'avoid known cheats' to 'avoid everyone'? :confused: The balance you speak of is achieved by avoiding dishonest sellers. Many of us do so, and our collections are not bad.

I have not studied PWCC or Probstein's auctions and bidding history, and I have ignored most of the posts that do so, but it's hard to ignore the responses in these discussions that advocate complacency when shilling is discovered.

Scott, that logic is just an attempt to address the notion that all or many prices are inflated because of past shilling. And therefore, if one doesn't want to be a victim of shilling, and yet many prices even in unshilled auctions are in effect "retroactively shilled," if you will, then it becomes a slippery slope.

[drcy]

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

[glchen]

One could just as easily say a Warhol is merely some canvas and paint. It's all so subjective. I personally don't believe in comparing one realm of collectible to another. Some cards were mass produced, others are in incredibly low supply relative to demand. One cannot underestimate people's love of sport, sports icons, and all the nostalgia as well.

Art being considered "higher" troubles me. To be clear, not saying you are saying that. But for those who would, it's kind of a pretentious, condescending attitude. There is room in a society for for both fine art and for sport. And one could contend sport is far more popular than art in society. I'm not someone who's big into prognostications but I don't see high end art or high end baseball cards becoming worthless in my lifetime.

Matt, I think you would understand this because you're a screenwriter. There are some movies that are just pure entertainment. However, there are some movies that attempt to give society something different in the world, to make a point. Sports are just pure entertainment, and collecting cards of sports heroes are just an extension of that. However, some art tries to show the world in a different way, and bring the audience with them. That's why I think it's a different type of collectible.

[MattyC]

Matt, I think you would understand this because you're a screenwriter. There are some movies that are just pure entertainment. However, there are some movies that attempt to give society something different in the world, to make a point. Sports are just pure entertainment, and collecting cards of sports heroes are just an extension of that. However, some art tries to show the world in a different way, and bring the audience with them. That's why I think it's a different type of collectible.

I agree completely that it's a different type. I would just fall short of calling one "higher" or not. Both thought-provoking films/art and sport have merit in society, IMO, is all I'm saying.

[MattyC]

I always think "How big of you to think it's okay that others are being shilled."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property, they'd be singing a different tune.

And then there are the resident idiots who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet for fun? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who you burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I say, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

I think there are two distinct issues in this conversation that need to be parsed. There is "participating in a shilled auction," and then there is the notion that "many or all prices are inflated due to shilling." The former is relatively easier to combat on the individual level, by outing shilled auctions, abstaining from them, learning how to spot them and passing that knowledge onto other individuals. But the latter notion is more problematic.

I don't see many here saying they are okay with others getting robbed, or okay with getting robbed themselves. For me at least, I'm talking specifically about the discrete notion of prices being inflated due to past shilling-- and thus if one does not want to be a party to that, it can paralyze a collector.

[Iron Horse]

Sorry Gary. You are correct I did get the E103 Wagner. The image and carity/color was so amazing that I just had to get it. Been looking for one like that for 2 years now.
I guess I'm out of the picture so I hope you will land yours soon :)

[Runscott]

Scott, that logic is just an attempt to address the notion that all or many prices are inflated because of past shilling. And therefore, if one doesn't want to be a victim of shilling, and yet many prices even in unshilled auctions are in effect "retroactively shilled," if you will, then it becomes a slippery slope.

I don't agree that shilling is driving up prices in all auctions, and I have avoided such discussions. But if that could be proven to be true, it would be ludicrous to avoid honest sellers because their prices have benefited from others who cheat. It would also be ludicrous to say that it's okay to bid on items sold by those who cheat, since the honest sellers benefit as well. I can't buy any such logic.

If you are an ebay customer you have the power to cast a vote against cheating by not bidding on items sold by such sellers, and also by voicing your opinion in public forums. Eventually it could change things - it worked with some of the large auction houses and I see no reason why ebay shouldn't also eventually be held accountable for tolerating illegal activities.

If you have a problem avoiding stuff you really want, that's being sold by questionable sellers, then simply don't ever view their auctions. I do this with several major auction houses, and with several ebay sellers - I simply use the advanced search setting to remove them, and they could have the coolest stuff in the world and I would never know it. I do the same with a few AH's by throwing their catalogs in the recycle bin without opening.

[chernieto]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1272826]
If you are an ebay customer you have the power to cast a vote against cheating by not bidding on items sold by such sellers, and also by voicing your opinion in public forums.

just be careful if you choose to voice your opinion on a public forum you may be attacked for doing so

[glchen]

Sorry Gary. You are correct I did get the E103 Wagner. The image and carity/color was so amazing that I just had to get it. Been looking for one like that for 2 years now.
I guess I'm out of the picture so I hope you will land yours soon :)

No worries, Ruben, that was a beautiful card. I knew you were looking for one for a while since you've had that on your BST listing, which was why I thought it was you. Next time! :)

[Runscott]

just be careful if you choose to voice your opinion on a public forum you may be attacked for doing so

I'm sure ebay wants to know how we feel about their policies. It doesn't mean they will change them, but any information from your customers is good to have.

[4815162342]

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

Best post ever. The Rockefeller reference caused me to do a spit-take.

[drcy]

I agree my post involved different issues. Assorted thoughts rather than linear theory.

But some people really do boast on this board that they don't mind being shilled.

[calvindog]

So is the answer, by that logic, to stop collecting? I agree the criminals are out there, that we have to be able to identify and steer around shilled auctions, but one can't let awareness of the fraud paralyze them from enjoyment, or from obtaining the items they love. There has to be a balance within the collector.

No Scott, I'm not saying that at all. But I also don't give up my current life to be a policeman or vigilante by night. If you want to stop collecting because there are shillers out there, go for it. Willingness to bid in unshilled auctions does not mean someone condones shilling. Willingness to buy cards when prices in general may be inflated here and there due to past shilling is also not condoning shilling. If I see it I will report it. If I see it I will abstain. If I have a friend pursuing a card I see is being shilled, I will put him onto it. But I won't let the existence of shilling stop me from collecting, or dominate my mind to the point where I spend more time talking about shilling on a website than I do enjoying cards. It's about balance and enjoyment, and not crossing the line from cautious, educated collector into paralyzed collector/crusader.

Who said anyone should stop collecting because of the fraud? I'd just like to see the end of the covering up for the crooks as well as those who claim that fraud isn't a big deal and "just put in a bid you're comfortable with and if you're shilled you'll still be ok." That would be a nice start. Because if we can't even describe fraud for what it is then we obviously have a problem of stupidity in the hobby which at least rivals that of the fraud.

[calvindog]

The only way to stop shilling is to pay what you believe a card is worth.

I've seen some idiotic things on this forum but this one might take the cake.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

Just read all 11 pages. This is the best comment I've read.

I took a stand with Probstein when it was pointed out to him that his consigners were shilling and he did nothing about it. I haven't bid on any of his cards since. It's been tough because he's definitely had some nice cards that were tempting.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The only way to stop shilling is to pay what you believe a card is worth.

LOL, and the only way to stop home invasions is to leave all your valuables out on the lawn :D

[ullmandds]

I always think "How big of you to feel it's okay that others are shilled out of money."

It's like with illegally down loaded movies and music where people say it's okay because "it's free publicity" or "that's the way the world is" or "musicians should get their money from concerts." What they really mean is it's okay because it's other people property being stolen. If it was their property being stolen, you can bet they'd be threatening lawsuit or contacting the police.

And then there are the inevitable posters who boast they don't mind being shilled out of $100, "because I know what I'm willing to pay." Whatever. When you aren't shilled, do you flush $100 down the toilet to achieve the same effect? Are you one of those movie mobster characters who burn $10 bills in bars to impress others how little money means to you?

As I've said, "You do realize don't you that the $100 lost due you being shilled is $100 you could have spend towards another card?" Or perhaps I missed the detail that your wife's maiden name is Rockefeller.

My usual guess when a collector says he doesn't mind being shilled because he's knowledgeable about values is he isn't knowledgeable about values. My usual guess is his 'knowledge' is the product of following shilled auctions.

totally agree...I will never understand those on this board who see shilling as a necessary component of buying vintage baseball cards...and are not bothered by it?

it's like paying the mafia off to merely exist?

[jhs5120]

LOL, and the only way to stop home invasions is to leave all your valuables out on the lawn :D

That would be one heck of a strategy! In all seriousness, 99% of these crazy shilled up auctions are the result of some fool bidding against himself (the shiller). If people would simply set a snipe to what they feel the card is worth then most of these situations would be avoided and the shill bidder will just keep winning the card.

Case in point, this Johnson card is worth maybe $1,100. If everyone sticks to what the card is worth then the card will just go back to the consignor/shiller. The consigner will (presumably) pay his consignment fees and consign the card again, it doesn't sell again and the process repeats itself. It will keep repeating itself until the consignor eventually doesn't shill and accepts that the card is only worth $1,100. It's the crazy bidders who NEED this card that create such a rampant shilling problem.

[glchen]

The consigner will (presumably) pay his consignment fees ....

This wouldn't happen if the consignor shills under a 0 feedback account and becomes nonpaying bidder. Then what probably would happen would be that PWCC would give the underbidder a 2nd chance offer or re-list for the consignor in the next auction. Since PWCC didn't know the consignor was nonpaying bidder, they wouldn't charge a consignment fee.

[chernieto]

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2006/aug/02/art.crime

Shill? what Shill?

ebay? very interesting...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just read all 11 pages. This is the best comment I've read.

I took a stand with Probstein when it was pointed out to him that his consigners were shilling and he did nothing about it. I haven't bid on any of his cards since. It's been tough because he's definitely had some nice cards that were tempting.

David thanks. You and Scott and I seem to be in a minority here but so be it. I am sure I could protect myself and still bid but that isn't the point.

[ksabet]

I have a question. I hope I don't get reamed for asking but if these two guys are known for unethical practices, how are they still allowed to be advertisers on this site when so many seem to agree that they do not provide the collecting community with legitimate auctions?

This is not rhetorical I am really curious.

[ullmandds]

I have a question. I hope I don't get reamed for asking but if these two guys are known for unethical practices, how are they still allowed to be advertisers on this site when so many seem to agree that they do not provide the collecting community with legitimate auctions?

This is not rhetorical I am really curious.

That's a very good question...and I think the answer is that many people don't blame these sellers...because as many auctions as they have....how could they possibly regulate all bidding activity...they blame the consigners who are actually doing the shilling.

[calvindog]

That's a very good question...and I think the answer is that many people don't blame these sellers...because as many auctions as they have....how could they possibly regulate all bidding activity...they blame the consigners who are actually doing the shilling.

I can assure you that the fraud in these auctions is not limited to the consigners. To suggest otherwise is just false.

[chernieto]

What if..... 100 members here complained to ebay on an auction in the future where Shilling could be proven. Perhaps some sort of mass action could force ebay to address the system. I am sure there computers could figure it out if they looked into it.
But could a member here identify an indisputable auction
( yet to occur) with enough time to try and mount a complaint campaign to try and force action?
If enough ebay participants complained and ebay feared the "prove-able case of shilling" reached the media they may indeed act to protect their reputation. I would gladly partake.
Accusations are one thing and proving it is another.
I too once had a feedback score of 0 or 20 & I was on the up and up. I would love to see something which could be acted upon


http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2006/aug/02/art.crime

[ullmandds]

I can assure you that the fraud in these auctions is not limited to the consigners. To suggest otherwise is just false.

Sure...agreed.

[the 'stache]

Not meaning to be argumentative here, Gary, but when was the last time a work of art had the impact that Jackie Robinson's breaking of the color barrier did upon not only baseball, but America itself? After 9/11 happened, did you see thousands of New Yorkers huddled around a Van Gogh at the Met? Nope, the only Met that was lifting people's spirits was Mike Piazza when he hit the game winning home run on 9/21 at Shea. Baseball, not some Degas painting of a bunch of ballerinas, helped heal this country. The history of baseball, and the history of this nation, are intertwined. Baseball cards are valued, and will always be valued, because they help us celebrate the history of our country. To dismiss baseball cards as "only pieces of cardboard", and say they are not the fabric of society is puzzling. I would say that baseball cards are in fact more a part of the fabric of society than a piece of art is.

You mentioned old coins. What intrinsic value do they have? Show me a 1920 nickel, and I'll tell you it's worth 5 cents because there's an active government backing the value of that coin. It's only worth more in certain circles because people have determined old coins have more value. What about coins from ancient civilizations? Again, they have value, and are collectible, because somebody is willing to pay more money to acquire it. If I melted those coins down, what would they be worth? Nothing, unless the coins were gold or silver. Then, they would have value as a commodity anywhere in the world. But nobody would care that that gold or silver came from an old coin.

Art? I can get a canvas, and throw a bunch of paint at it, and try to sell it on Ebay, I won't get a single bid. But, if I were to take that exact same piece of "art", throw it on Ebay with the title "Jackson Pollock masterpiece", you'd get the snobs of the art world tripping over themselves to acquire it. Why? Because people have placed value on paintings from the masters. Van Gogh died penniless. Nobody cared about his paintings while he was alive. It was only later when people identified the tortured genius in his work that they also deemed it had value. Nobody cares about where Van Gogh studied art. If you ask the average person bidding on a painting by Jan Van Eyck, or Rembrandt, or Monet, they're not going to have a clue under which master they might have studied.

Anything can have value. The Star Wars figures I played with as a child are highly collectible. Original, mint on card copies of the "twelve back" figures sell for thousands of dollars.

Matt, I can see where you're coming from for comic books, but baseball cards are just pieces of cardboard. It's like the ultimate non-gold standard currency. There's nothing behind it but pure faith. And they were mass produced. And how about non sports cards like Pokémon cards. People can say it's the same thing, entertainment, sports, etc... Art is very subjective, true, but it's always going to be studied in schools, and always going to be considered a "higher" form of culture than sports. I'm not saying that I would be any of these pieces of art that sell for millions which look like my two year old could have done or even if some Monet is really worth $100+ million. However, those collectibles seem to be more a fabric of society than cards are. If Van Gogh's starting selling for $10, it would be headline news, and people would start thinking it's like another Cultural Revolution in China, which wasn't a good thing. The same reaction wouldn't happen for cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't understand the whole modern art thing. The decisions of the cognoscenti as to who is a master and who isn't seem, for the most part, highly arbitrary and capricious.

[DerekMichael]

I love that last post Mr. Gregory.

[glchen]

Not meaning to be argumentative here, Gary, but when was the last time a work of art had the impact that Jackie Robinson's breaking of the color barrier did upon not only baseball, but America itself? After 9/11 happened, did you see thousands of New Yorkers huddled around a Van Gogh at the Met? Nope, the only Met that was lifting people's spirits was Mike Piazza when he hit the game winning home run on 9/21 at Shea. Baseball, not some Degas painting of a bunch of ballerinas, helped heal this country. The history of baseball, and the history of this nation, are intertwined. Baseball cards are valued, and will always be valued, because they help us celebrate the history of our country. To dismiss baseball cards as "only pieces of cardboard", and say they are not the fabric of society is puzzling. I would say that baseball cards are in fact more a part of the fabric of society than a piece of art is.

You mentioned old coins. What intrinsic value do they have? Show me a 1920 nickel, and I'll tell you it's worth 5 cents because there's an active government backing the value of that coin. It's only worth more in certain circles because people have determined old coins have more value. What about coins from ancient civilizations? Again, they have value, and are collectible, because somebody is willing to pay more money to acquire it. If I melted those coins down, what would they be worth? Nothing, unless the coins were gold or silver. Then, they would have value as a commodity anywhere in the world. But nobody would care that that gold or silver came from an old coin.

Art? I can get a canvas, and throw a bunch of paint at it, and try to sell it on Ebay, I won't get a single bid. But, if I were to take that exact same piece of "art", throw it on Ebay with the title "Jackson Pollock masterpiece", you'd get the snobs of the art world tripping over themselves to acquire it. Why? Because people have placed value on paintings from the masters. Van Gogh died penniless. Nobody cared about his paintings while he was alive. It was only later when people identified the tortured genius in his work that they also deemed it had value. Nobody cares about where Van Gogh studied art. If you ask the average person bidding on a painting by Jan Van Eyck, or Rembrandt, or Monet, they're not going to have a clue under which master they might have studied.

Anything can have value. The Star Wars figures I played with as a child are highly collectible. Original, mint on card copies of the "twelve back" figures sell for thousands of dollars.

Bill, it is good to read about your love of cardboard and baseball. Please don't get me wrong. I love collecting baseball cards also. I collected when I was a kid, and I had a lot of fun buying packs at the local drugstore in town or before a Little League game. I exchanged cards with my friends in school, and I really enjoyed it. I still have many of my cards from back then, and although they are worthless in value, there is still a lot sentimental value there. I enjoy collecting today to somewhat relive those times during my childhood, and also to obtain some of the cards I could never dream of obtaining when I was a kid. In addition, it's very enjoyable learning the history of the different baseball cards, and it's a different type of experience in collecting the cards in of itself than when I was a kid.

Moreover, I could never collect art. Most of it's bulky, and I can't understand 99% of it. I much prefer to hang pictures of my family on the walls of our house than any painting or print of a noteworthy painting. However, I still believe that art is a different level of collectible than baseball cards.

So, I will reply to your argument this way. If you could only save one of these, your ten favorite or what you consider most important baseball cards ever, or this one painting of George Washington painted in 1796 by Gilbert Stuart (the Lansdowne portrait), which I’ve attached, and currently hanging in the Smithsonian Museum, which would you choose? A description of this painting is here (Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansdowne_portrait)), and in brief the painting shows Washington refusing a third term as President. Note that there are copies of it painted by the same artist, but this would be the original. You could save only one, and the other would be incinerated and lost forever. Which would you choose?

[MattyC]

I think it's just far too reductive an analysis, to create an Art vs.
Sports collectible debate, and then boil it down to George Washington versus Babe Ruth, so to speak. Again, I'd urge an embracing of both art and sport in any balanced culture.

For every portrait of a Founding Father in a critical historical moment, there is a Jeff Koons sculpture that sells for a head-scratching sum. This type of Internet debate can quickly devolve because there are myriad examples anyone can select to stress either point. Let's resist the impulse to pit these two important realms against one another. There is room for both and collectors of both, and one need not occupy a "higher" level than another. Neither is on the societal chopping block.

After all, one can easily argue that an athlete at the pinnacle of human physical perfection and achievement, be it Jesse Owens or Michael Jordan or a young Mantle, winds up inspiring more people, and occupying a dearer place in more hearts, than many a fine art piece.

Thankfully, the hypothetical choice to sacrifice art or sport is one that our culture will not have to face.

[barrysloate]

It's never good to say what you collect is better and has more intrinsic value than what the other guy collects. Just because you think Jackie Robinson breaking the color line is more important than van Gogh's "A Starry Night" doesn't make you right. It's just an opinion. People who collect are passionate about what they like, and it's important to respect that.

The great coin collections, stamp collections, art collections, classic jazz album collections, or your Aunt Rose's hummel collection mean a great deal to the people who spent the time to put them together and to study the history behind them.

[ALR-bishop]

I wonder how many baseball cards the Monuments Men rescued from the Nazis. :).

[GregMitch34]

Babe Ruth Sanella cards?

[steve B]

Bill, it is good to read about your love of cardboard and baseball. Please don't get me wrong. I love collecting baseball cards also. I collected when I was a kid, and I had a lot of fun buying packs at the local drugstore in town or before a Little League game. I exchanged cards with my friends in school, and I really enjoyed it. I still have many of my cards from back then, and although they are worthless in value, there is still a lot sentimental value there. I enjoy collecting today to somewhat relive those times during my childhood, and also to obtain some of the cards I could never dream of obtaining when I was a kid. In addition, it's very enjoyable learning the history of the different baseball cards, and it's a different type of experience in collecting the cards in of itself than when I was a kid.

Moreover, I could never collect art. Most of it's bulky, and I can't understand 99% of it. I much prefer to hang pictures of my family on the walls of our house than any painting or print of a noteworthy painting. However, I still believe that art is a different level of collectible than baseball cards.

So, I will reply to your argument this way. If you could only save one of these, your ten favorite or what you consider most important baseball cards ever, or this one painting of George Washington painted in 1796 by Gilbert Stuart (the Lansdowne portrait), which I’ve attached, and currently hanging in the Smithsonian Museum, which would you choose? A description of this painting is here (Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansdowne_portrait)), and in brief the painting shows Washington refusing a third term as President. Note that there are copies of it painted by the same artist, but this would be the original. You could save only one, and the other would be incinerated and lost forever. Which would you choose?

Well..................

To follow the stated hobby logic, I'd save the cards. Because just like Broders, the painting can't have any value because the painter could always paint more. (And actually did) :rolleyes:

The comparison is a good one in some ways. if I were to pick a handful of cards, the similarities would be that they and the painting would represent events and actions that altered out country in some way and that the alteration was one that remained.
Washington refusing a second term became a tradition that wasn't made law until 17 years after it was broken in 1940.

Obviously something that affected the countries politics and still does over 200 years later.

But an early card of Jackie Robinson? - a 49 leaf to make it easy. Also represents an act that represented a huge change in the US. And while it was less of a solitary act then one involving several people I would make the stretch that as a milestone in a movement that eventually had worldwide influence decades later it could be seen as equivalent historically.

Steve B

[peterose4hof]

Babe Ruth Sanella cards?

They had to send reinforcements to get all the Sanella Ruths out.

[steve B]

A bunch of responses, in no particular order.

As far as the discussion about shilling and where the line must be drawn, I can see some merits to both arguments. My wife and I disagree similarly about a few issues- we agree at the core things are not what they should be, I tend to be more vocal about complaining, while she'll let stuff slide.

So.
Shilling is wrong.
Shilling is a crime.
Shilling happens - probably a lot more than we'd all like to think.

Sometimes it's allowed to happen, either by design or by circumstances.

But.
"We" are often very quick to see shilling everywhere (Perhaps correctly)
I've had instances where I believed shilling was going on, but was later proven wrong. (Happily so, I got a second chance offer on a cycling jersey I thought was unique, passed, then later won the second one which happened to be nicer from the same seller. )


I used to think policing thousands of auctions for odd patterns and bidders with a lot of retractions was an expensive and difficult task. Then someone here wrote a tiny bit of software and found a number of odd patterns in minutes. So it's not an impossible task for shills or simply odd patterns that happen early.
I'm not so sure about the same events if they're within the last few minutes. Ebay probably doesn't allow automated refusal of bids in any way. If they do, someone write that app, and get it out there!

For those who don't see the problem or don't believe it has possibly altered the prices of all cards.

I believe it has. And here's why.

Lets say that only fairly expensive cards get shilled (Don't get on this, it's a false over simplification)
So maybe a card that's in high grade becomes worth shilling. And they sell fairly often in auctions. Maybe its a $500 card. But in an auction it gets shilled to 750, That becomes the new value for a similar copy. After a few have sold at 750, maybe a bit higher since it's "on its way up" 750 really becomes the value. And maybe the shillers reach a bit farther. ..........eventually it becomes a $1500 card. And because it's valuable, the price of the lesser condition copies go up as well. Many people assign value to lower condition examples based on what the better examples are worth. say the 1500 card is EX. but I figure a VG might be worth 50%.
The shilling of the EX card has essentially cost anyone buying a VG version an extra $250.

Even without shilling - say I have a friend of mine actually buy the card. Or, we get together and buy as many VG cards as we can for 350 when they're going for 250. Then we shill or simply buy and sell the same EX card a few times to establish a higher market price. And make claims that all of that card are going up -way up since it's had huge increases. Then we sell off the VG cards at 500, making a tidy profit.

That's exactly why the stock market has rules against people actively dealing in stocks they promote, and against certain buying and selling patterns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_running

Some similar things don't always work out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_brothers

If you take the market for cards and other collectibles as a commodity market, which is part of the point of grading. All of that applies.

Whether someone takes the high road of abandoning any market or seller that encourages or condones that stuff
Or The middle road of only participating in some auctions.
Or Ignores it all and only bids what they think is fair

Is up to them.
And I guess that will have to be ok, fraud has been an always will be with us.

I'd like to think that those ignoring it at least do so knowing that even without active participation the cost of their collectibles might be artificially inflated beyond what would be normal.

Steve B

[T206Collector]

The concern of a market artificially inflated by shilling is a red herring, in my view. It is an argument used solely to respond to the shilling-indifferent in an effort to point out a tangible cost of shilling. However, if ebay eliminated all auctions and went solely with a BIN feature, where shilling would be impossible, you would be left with the same potential for market inflation as you have today as a result of false sales of items.

To me it's simple: people hate shilling because they perceive that they overpaid for an item. My response is (1) don't pay more than you want to pay for something, and (2) there is no parallel market where shilling is eliminated and things become cheaper as a result. The elimination of shilling just means higher BINs for everyone.

But, finally, of course it is good to out the auctioneers who engage in shilling. Smart consumers do well to be alert to such pricing fraud. I do not think that being alert to shilling is antithetical to my views on this matter.

[vintagetoppsguy]

don't pay more than you want to pay for something

And how do you avoid that if you're shilled up?

[ullmandds]

I think the moral of the story is: if you want to collect desirable vintage baseball cards...you should be prepared to OVERPAY for them!

[MattyC]

I think what T206 means is this, and I am writing this in the mind of a hypothetical buyer...

1. Here is a card I want.

2. Based on my budget, I'd be happy paying $100 for it.

3. Oh, it's at auction on ebay now? Cool. Let me check the auction real quick to see if any shilling's been going on. No? Okay, I will bid $100 for it, go about my life, and then get an email when the auction ends. I sure wish I could watch this auction like a hawk, but, you know, life.

4. 7 DAYS LATER... Great-- I won it for $100 (or less).

5. Now I will pay, receive the card, and enjoy the card.

6. But wait-- what if I was shilled, and could have paid less? Should I have taken time from my job to monitor the bidders' and their profiles, then have retracted my bid?

And what if that $100 I was okay paying was really subliminally influenced and placed in my mind as an okay price by past shills over the years-- and thus in a parallel universe the card is really worth $88.17?

Maybe I should invent the flux capacitor to go back and pass on that conference call or workout or sex with my wife or fun with my kids to stare at that bidding history. Or maybe I should quit my career and invent a portal to the shill-free dimension. (Just think of what I could charge for entry! I'm gonna be RICH!)

7. Ah, know what, I suck at this whole flux capacitor thing-- I'll just be happy with my card. It gives me such joy, and life presents far more pressing headaches. I do wish I had the time to watch auctions in which I am bidding like a hawk, and walk away anytime I sense the presence of a shill bidder, but that's just not the case. I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice, and I will definitely tell my collecting colleagues what happened to me, but I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection. I paid an amount I was okay with paying and am happy with my purchase. THE END.

[D.P.Johnson]

Note to self:

Avoid all ebay sellers whose name start with a "P".

Prob.
Pwcc.
Pank.

Perhaps Prob. and Pwcc will merge someday and call themselves "PeePee Auction House"...

[T206Collector]

And how do you avoid that if you're shilled up?

The same way I avoid it when I buy something at a fixed price.

[drcy]

My comment on shilling is, if an auctioneer does one thing unethical in order to covertly trick customers out of money, you can safely assume the auctioneer is doing more than one thing unethical. The motive in to secretly trick customers out of money-- why would they stick with just one covert method to achieve that? And customers often can only guess what the other unethical things might be. Remember that Mastro wasn't sent to prison for just shilling-- the charges were for shilling, altering and misrepresenting items at sale. Perhaps other things. He had a variety of methods to cheat bidders out of money.

This is why I say that collectors are fools when they participate in auctions where they know unethical (and in the case of shilling, possibly illegal) practices are going on. The bidders have don't know what other ways they may be being scammed? Are items altered? Is essential information omitted from descriptions? Does the auctioneer handle material from consignors he knows are unethical or alterers? Do know who are the consignors?

And, ask yourself, how sellable will your collection be 15 years from now, when potential buyers learn you bought 60% of it from an auctioneer who served time in prison for massive shilling fraud? And, even worse, what will these customers think when they learn that you knew about and defended on a chatboard the auctioneer's illegal practices while they were happening? What will this say to them about your ethics and your reliability as a seller? When I read the game used universe board, I read posts from people who are suspicious of items that come with a Mastro LOA-- even though the items may be (and perhaps probably are) legitimate. Though I think his knee jerk reaction was incorrect, one poster said he just assumed a game used item was altered because it came from a Mastro Auction.

In summary, if you participate in auctions where you know unethical (and even potentially illegal) things are going on, you are not only part of the problem, you are a fool. And don't come running back to this board when a seller you knew all along was willing to break the law to cheat customers out of money sold you a card that was intentionally misdescribed or known to be altered or cheated you out of shipping or deceptively manipulated scans. I might just have to say something sarcastic such as "Wow. Who would've thunk an unethical seller would do something unethical."

And sometime have a conversation with someone outside of collecting and see what they think of your brain capacity and grasp of common sense:

YOU: "I'll tell you, there are honest and dishonest sellers out there. There are some sellers you can trust with every word they say and there are some sellers who would sell his own grandmother to the Gypsies for five bucks. I've identified two sellers in particular on eBay who are total cheats and scammers, who literally break the law to cheat customers out of money. God knows what else they are doing."
HOBBY OUTSIDER: "So, naturally, you stay far away from those scammers."
YOU: "I don't get what you mean. Those are the auctions where I bid. That's where I get most of my stuff."
HOBBY OUTSIDER: "Uhhh. Maybe I missed something. Repeat everything you've said, but say it more slowly this time."
YOU: "Sorry, I forget. Understand that I was dropped on my head as kid."
HOBBY OUTSIDER: "That's what I kind of thinking. I noticed the dent on the side of your head, but wasn't going to say anything."

P.s. I don't follow eBay much, much less follow bid pattern charsm and am not accusing any current eBay seller of anything. I don't have enough knowledge to even comment on individual sellers And I'm also not a lawyer, and my legal references where hypotheticals and to prove general points. There are enough lawyers on board to point out when my People's Court education is lacking.

P.s.s, by 'you' I didn't mean you. I'm sure your head has no dents.

[VoodooChild]

MattyC - that's the best post I've read here since I joined. I 100% agree except for the sex with the wife part - unless the auction is taking place on one of the four nights a year where that actually happens :D!!!

[chernieto]

I think what T206 means is this, and I am writing this in the mind of a hypothetical buyer...

1. Here is a card I want.

2. Based on my budget, I'd be happy paying $100 for it.

3. Oh, it's at auction on ebay now? Cool. Let me check the auction real quick to see if any shilling's been going on. No? Okay, I will bid $100 for it, go about my life, and then get an email when the auction ends. I sure wish I could watch this auction like a hawk, but, you know, life.

4. 7 DAYS LATER... Great-- I won it for $100 (or less).

5. Now I will pay, receive the card, and enjoy the card.

6. But wait-- what if I was shilled, and could have paid less? Should I have taken time from my job to monitor the bidders' and their profiles, then have retracted my bid?

And what if that $100 I was okay paying was really subliminally influenced and placed in my mind as an okay price by past shills over the years-- and thus in a parallel universe the card is really worth $88.17?

Maybe I should invent the flux capacitor to go back and pass on that conference call or workout or sex with my wife or fun with my kids to stare at that bidding history. Or maybe I should quit my career and invent a portal to the shill-free dimension. (Just think of what I could charge for entry! I'm gonna be RICH!)

7. Ah, know what, I suck at this whole flux capacitor thing-- I'll just be happy with my card. It gives me such joy, and life presents far more pressing headaches. I do wish I had the time to watch auctions in which I am bidding like a hawk, and walk away anytime I sense the presence of a shill bidder, but that's just not the case. I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice, and I will definitely tell my collecting colleagues what happened to me, but I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection. I paid an amount I was okay with paying and am happy with my purchase. THE END.

Very well said ......

[chernieto]

In summary, if you participate in auctions where you know unethical (and even potentially illegal) things are going on, you are not only part of the problem, you are a fool. And don't come running back to this board when a seller you knew all along was willing to break the law to cheat customers out of money sold you a card that was intentionally misdescribed or known to be altered or cheated you out of shipping or deceptively manipulated scans. I might just have to say something sarcastic such as "Wow. Who would've thunk an unethical seller would do something unethical."

P.s. I don't follow eBay much, much less follow bid pattern charsm and am not accusing any current eBay seller of anything. I don't have enough knowledge to even comment on individual sellers And I'm also not a lawyer, and my legal references where hypotheticals and to prove general points. There are enough lawyers on board to point out when my People's Court education is lacking.

What if you refuse to participate in an auction because someone on the board once saw something they don't like or for whatever reason calls foul? Does that make you a fool? What if you buy something in what you assume is a normal auction and later find out otherwise? Fool? If egg prices get manipulated do your kids never eat eggs?
99% of the folks here do not approve of illegal or manipulative actions. I think we all can collect how we wish without someone calling us fools, perhaps foolish of me to think so.

[T206Collector]

I think what T206 means is this

Correct, with one additional point: we make purchasing and selling decisions with imperfect information about market value all of the time. I just do not view the potential impact of shilling in an auction as all that different from my other daily fixed price transactions.

[tschock]

The elimination of shilling just means higher BINs for everyone.

We've discussed this before and this is nothing more than an unprovable assumption. I could similarly argue that the elimination of shilling will produce LOWER BINs (than currently offered), but not necessarily as much as an un-shilled auction. But the elimination of shilling doesn't guarantee higher BINs for everyone.

General rule of thumb. The less manipulation of a free market, the lower the price.

[T206Collector]

But the elimination of shilling doesn't guarantee higher BINs for everyone.

If a seller's ability to artificially inflate prices is removed, why would he agree to voluntarily lower his real price? I just don't think that's how it works. If he can't shill a card he bought for $50 to $100, I don't think that'll mean he'll list it for $50. I think the fair assumption is that he'll raise his price as high as possible to get at the same buyer who was willing to pay $100. I don't think it is fair to assume that the seller will now sit on his hands and sell his items at auction with the uncertainty of the market. Frankly, I think the move to BINs of so many ebay sellers over recent years proves as much.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The same way I avoid it when I buy something at a fixed price.

So the only way to avoid shilling is to buy fixed price items?

Skip regular auctions?

[tschock]

We've discussed this before and this is nothing more than an unprovable assumption. I could similarly argue that the elimination of shilling will produce LOWER BINs (than currently offered), but not necessarily as much as an un-shilled auction. But the elimination of shilling doesn't guarantee higher BINs for everyone.

General rule of thumb. The less manipulation of a free market, the lower the price.

That said, I will generally put a bid out on what I am willing to pay for the item, but I always factor in the source of that item as well. As someone pointed out, a seller that turns a blind eye to shilling is likely to turn a blind eye to other sketchy things, if not actively participate in them. So that particular seller would also have a negative factor in my bid. Either making it lower, much lower, or not at all.

[T206Collector]

Me: Don't pay more than you want to pay for something.

DJ: And how do you avoid that if you're shilled up?

Me: The same way I avoid it when I buy something at a fixed price.

DJ: So the only way to avoid shilling is to buy fixed price items? Skip regular auctions?

Me: No. What I mean is that when I buy something at a fixed price I am often all too keenly aware that I may be overpaying for the item. But, I still buy things with price tags all of the time. Obviously buying items at a fixed price does not mean you bought something at the lowest possible price.

[tschock]

If a seller's ability to artificially inflate prices is removed, why would he agree to voluntarily lower his real price? I just don't think that's how it works. If he can't shill a card he bought for $50 to $100, I don't think that'll mean he'll list it for $50. I think the fair assumption is that he'll raise his price as high as possible to get at the same buyer who was willing to pay $100. I don't think it is fair to assume that the seller will now sit on his hands and sell his items at auction with the uncertainty of the market. Frankly, I think the move to BINs of so many ebay sellers over recent years proves as much.

So what you are saying above is that a guy buys a card shilled from $50 to $100. And that same card won't be sold at a $50 BIN but a $100 BIN? So how is $100 more than $100???

The move to BINs could also be due to the artificially high prices from shilled auctions as well, couldn't it? Hmmmm... That might explain the ton of "museum pieces" that keep getting the same BINs over and over. Might also explain ebay's recent announcement to at least get a token 30 cents for the museum pieces or cough up a store subscription. Perhaps ebay DOES know more than us about how well BINs are working or not. If your theory (on the move to BINs) was correct, I think ebay would have moved in the other direction and made BINs free for the first 100 (rather than auctions).

[T206Collector]

Frank La Porte

$139.99 + $2 s/h for this T206 Frank LaPorte PSA 5 as a BIN:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-FRANK-LAPORTE-NY-HIGHLANDERS-PSA-5-FIELDING-PIEDMONT-350-FAC-25-/261470959348?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3ce0e236f4

History of the sales of this card suggest the buyer grossly overpaid:

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/gm_price_history.cgi?cardID=1024716722&grade=5

But, was the buyer an idiot or a fool? Is $139.99 a relevant price point for this card in the future? How can we confirm that this was an arm's length transaction between two consenting and rational adults? What if every seller tried to shill up to a price below this one going forward - would it manipulate the market?

[drcy]

For the record and in response to previous comment on my post, I specifically said bidding with an auctioneer where you know (are consciously and keenly aware) he is using unethical and possibly illegal practice(s) to covertly cheat customers out of their money. I didn't say anything about where you are ignorant to the practice(s).

And, yes, I do think it is a problem with this hobby that collectors continue to give money to auction houses they know cheat and break the law. These collectors supply the money that keeps the auction houses in business. As soon as the well of money goes dry in protest or response to the practices, the auction houses will either go out of business or change their practices.

Do I have a practical, real world solution to the previous paragraph? No. I am aware that many collectors follow the stuff and I never claimed to know how to heard cats. If a seller has a card a collector 'needs,' the seller has the card the collector 'needs.' . . . I put needs in quotes, because people don't really need a card. They just really, really want it. "The heart wants what the heart wants," as an old girlfriend once said.

[tschock]

What if every seller tried to shill up to a price below this one going forward - would it manipulate the market?

Yes. That's why price manipulation and collusion are generally against the law.

[T206Collector]

Yes. That's why price manipulation and collusion are generally against the law.

Just pointing out that a high purchase of a BIN on ebay -- or a single bid at a high opening reserve -- has the same propensity to "manipulate" markets.

[chernieto]

[QUOTE=drcy;1273249]For the record and in response to previous comment on my post, I specifically said bidding with an auctioneer where you know (are consciously and keenly aware) he is using unethical and possibly illegal practice(s) to covertly cheat customers out of their money. I didn't say anything about where you are ignorant to the practice(s).

And, yes, I do think it is a problem with this hobby that collectors continue to give money to auction houses they know cheat and break the law. These collectors supply the money that keeps the auction houses in business. As soon as the well of money goes dry in protest or response to the practices, the auction houses will either go out of business or change their practices.
__________________________________________________ ________

Once a bid is placed in any auction house it would seem all bidders are ignorant to who places additional higher bids or if the auction house just illegally pushes price up to a pre-existing max bid.
If you are aware of any auction house that "cheat and break the law" I would love to know about it and would avoid it! To me at least there is a vast difference between someone claiming "all his auctions are shilled" & someone proving that. I believe in the theory of innocent until proven guilty.

[arc2q]

I always wondered what the motivation was for people to consign items to another seller to sell on eBay. Setting up an eBay listing is fairly easy to do on one's own. I understand for many people consigning a large number of cards makes sense rather than trying to manage many listings. And for some avoiding the tediousness of setting up the auction is worth the commission.

But now the cynic in me is thinking a lot of people do it because it allows them to shill their own auctions with impunity.

[ullmandds]

I always wondered what the motivation was for people to consign items to another seller to sell on eBay. Setting up an eBay listing is fairly easy to do on one's own. I understand for many people consigning a large number of cards makes sense rather than trying to manage many listings. And for some avoiding the tediousness of setting up the auction is worth the commission.

But now the cynic in me is thinking a lot of people do it because it allows them to shill their own auctions with impunity.


I used to wonder the same thing...I'd wonder how these huge "clearinghouses" could stay in business...and keep getting quantities of quality material...and continuously set record prices for certain cards sold...again and again.

It is much more clear these days!

[jhs5120]

I used to wonder the same thing...I'd wonder how these huge "clearinghouses" could stay in business...and keep getting quantities of quality material...again and again.

It is much more clear these days!

I use it because it's easier, cheaper and they get better prices. What's to wonder :confused:

[Runscott]

I think what T206 means is this, and I am writing this in the mind of a hypothetical buyer...

1. Here is a card I want.

2. Based on my budget, I'd be happy paying $100 for it.

3. Oh, it's at auction on ebay now? Cool. Let me check the auction real quick to see if any shilling's been going on. No? Okay, I will bid $100 for it, go about my life, and then get an email when the auction ends. I sure wish I could watch this auction like a hawk, but, you know, life.

4. 7 DAYS LATER... Great-- I won it for $100 (or less).

5. Now I will pay, receive the card, and enjoy the card.

6. But wait-- what if I was shilled, and could have paid less? Should I have taken time from my job to monitor the bidders' and their profiles, then have retracted my bid?

And what if that $100 I was okay paying was really subliminally influenced and placed in my mind as an okay price by past shills over the years-- and thus in a parallel universe the card is really worth $88.17?

Maybe I should invent the flux capacitor to go back and pass on that conference call or workout or sex with my wife or fun with my kids to stare at that bidding history. Or maybe I should quit my career and invent a portal to the shill-free dimension. (Just think of what I could charge for entry! I'm gonna be RICH!)

7. Ah, know what, I suck at this whole flux capacitor thing-- I'll just be happy with my card. It gives me such joy, and life presents far more pressing headaches. I do wish I had the time to watch auctions in which I am bidding like a hawk, and walk away anytime I sense the presence of a shill bidder, but that's just not the case. I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice, and I will definitely tell my collecting colleagues what happened to me, but I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection. I paid an amount I was okay with paying and am happy with my purchase. THE END.

Matt, not a bad effort, but replace step #3 with: "if the seller is a known shiller, don't bid"

and remove step #6

Regarding step #7, it sounds like this statement: "I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection" trumps this one: "I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice"

If you really mean what you say, then you'll simply avoid sellers who you feel are crooked; otherwise, you are rationalizing.

[tschock]

Just pointing out that a high purchase of a BIN on ebay -- or a single bid at a high opening reserve -- has the same propensity to "manipulate" markets.

Your position is starting to make a little more sense in light of a previous post. "The concern of a market artificially inflated by shilling is a red herring, in my view. It is an argument used solely to respond to the shilling-indifferent in an effort to point out a tangible cost of shilling."

One could also point out that the shilling-indifferent might offer other market inflation methods to justify their shilling indifference, since there are tangible costs to shilling. I've yet to see this proven otherwise or even addressed. I'll prefer hundreds of years of real life experience that market manipulation negatively affects prices rather than a theory that BINs will rise if shilling auctions were eliminated.

I think Steve B pointed it out best in that there are 3 approaches to this:
A ) Whether someone takes the high road of abandoning any market or seller that encourages or condones that stuff
B ) Or The middle road of only participating in some auctions.
C ) Or Ignores it all and only bids what they think is fair

[drcy]

I've consigned on eBay. I consigned because I didn't want to do the work at the time (I hate billing, packaging, packaging tape, gong to the post office, etc--- and it was easier to ship it all at once to one seller) and the particular seller I consigned to was a respected dealer who got good prices due to his reputation and known knowledge (He used to work at a museum). Realize that I've never sold trading cards printed in the thousands that come encapsulated in plastic holders with identification label and bar code at top and that can be double checked on the PSA website and looked up in a price guide. I've consigned esoteric and rare items such as vintage autographed scorecards, unique postcards, antique movie posters, medals, original art and movie star awards, where buyers bid more when the seller is well known, they've had good experience and the seller is known as knowledgeable about what he sells. I thought he did a good job and I got fair prices, so I was willing to consign again.

And, whether or not you believe it, I never shilled. To be honest, the idea of shilling never even crossed my mind. Some people think everyone thinks about doing bad things even if they don't act upon it, but that's not true. For many people, that they could cheat or maim that person across the room or slip the tip on the next table into his pocket doesn't even cross their minds. It doesn't enter their thoughts. It's unethical people who think everyone is also unethical. The prices I got were the prices I got. Some stuff lots sold less than I wanted, but overall I was satisfied.

I also admit I can be lazy-- after all, I said I consigned in part to pass the work onto someone else. The point of consigning was not to give myself more work-- say, the work of setting up phony accounts, spending hours bidding, retracting bids and and following auctions. The point was I could be napping on the couch or sipping a Diet Coke in front of Gilligan's Island while work was being done.

And I admit I'm self centered enough to think I have more important things to do than wrapping packaging tape around boxes in my basement. We polymath supergeniuses think our time better spent solving the mysteries of the universe, writing the Great American Novel (the real one, not that hack Faulkner) and reinventing the wheel (I want something rounder).

"I didn't realize polymath supergeniuses watched Giligan's Island."
"Well now you know."
"And exactly how many polymath supergeniuses are there?"
"I heard there's another one in Estonia, but it's so far unconfirmed."

Reminds me of when someone asked Doctor Who what he was a doctor of, and he said "Most everything."

Or the HAL 9000-inpsired ship's computer on the classic BBC science fiction sit com Red Dwarf that said "My name is Holly and I have an iq of 6,000. That's the equivalent of 6,000 PE teachers." In another episode he said it was the equivalent of 6,000 car park attendants.

[MattyC]

Scott,

Actually, I do avoid auctions that I think are crooked. However I make this assessment on an auction by auction basis; I do not personally subscribe to the belief that the big ebay consignment sellers like Brent are doing the shilling. I think the owners of the cards are doing the shilling. That's my opinion alone. Now what the sellers can do to combat it, and whether or not they are doing enough, that's a whole different discussion.

Now as to the inference you are drawing, that the statement about not beating oneself up trumps the statement about shilling being abhorrent, that is how you are choosing to read into what I wrote. The two statements, for me, are in perfect balance. I can think shilling is criminal activity, call it out and avoid it when I see it-- and at the same time I can refuse to lose sleep over it, refuse to obsess over it, and refuse to scour the bidding activity of every auction like some hypothetical power nerd. For me, it's about balance-- being aware and proactive without crossing over into obsessive crusading that ruins hobby enjoyment.

[T206Collector]

One could also point out that the shilling-indifferent might offer other market inflation methods to justify their shilling indifference, since there are tangible costs to shilling. I've yet to see this proven otherwise or even addressed. I'll prefer hundreds of years of real life experience that market manipulation negatively affects prices rather than a theory that BINs will rise if shilling auctions were eliminated.

I think Steve B pointed it out best in that there are 3 approaches to this:
A ) Whether someone takes the high road of abandoning any market or seller that encourages or condones that stuff
B ) Or The middle road of only participating in some auctions.
C ) Or Ignores it all and only bids what they think is fair

What about those of us who pay attention to the information about shilling but continue to bid what they think is fair in light of the available information?

Nobody ever said there were no tangible costs to shilling. I think it is plain that the people who are upset about shilling think they are paying too much for an item (not that there is artificial market inflation). This is where I think the roads begin to diverge - one camp that stamps its feet over shilling because they are convinced that they are overpaying for items; and the other camp that appreciates the information of the feet stampers but doesn't let it get to them because they don't feel like they paid more than they wanted to.

Finally, offering other market inflation methods doesn't justify shilling indifference, it shows that an emphasis on the perils of shilling may be overstated if the true concern is the purity of markets.

[Runscott]

Scott,

Actually, I do avoid auctions that I think are crooked. However I make this assessment on an auction by auction basis; I do not personally subscribe to the belief that the big ebay consignment sellers like Brent are doing the shilling. I think the owners of the cards are doing the shilling. That's my opinion alone. Now what the sellers can do to combat it, and whether or not they are doing enough, that's a whole different discussion.

To me, it is not a different discussion - whether the seller is shilling, or he is just permitting his consignors to do it, it has the same result. Just as the seller can decide not to shill, the seller can also decide that he won't allow his consignors to shill, and there are plenty of ways to accomplish that. There has been plenty of evidence in similar threads to this, to support the claim that sellers are aware of shilling and are not doing enough, and also that it would be fairly simple for them to locate consignors who are shilling, and get rid of them. But that would bust their business model.

I can think shilling is criminal activity, call it out and avoid it when I see it-- and at the same time I can refuse to lose sleep over it, refuse to obsess over it, and refuse to scour the bidding activity of every auction like some hypothetical power nerd.

I agree with all of the above and it's exactly how I handle my own bidding. I read your previous statements to mean that you felt you had to either check the history of all ebay sellers, which was too much trouble, or just bid on any seller's items if it was stuff you wanted, even if you knew the seller was crooked. Quite frankly, I don't check the history of ANY ebay sellers - I would have no idea that large ebay sellers were shilling (or permitting shilling) if I didn't read about it here in this forum. As a result, I've avoided those sellers. So this forum has some good results when it comes to 'fighting crime'.

[Runscott]

What about those of us who pay attention to the information about shilling but continue to bid what they think is fair in light of the available information?

If you know that the seller or his consignors are shilling, then you are supporting theft.

[T206Collector]

As a result, I've avoided those sellers. So this forum has some good results when it comes to 'fighting crime'.

FWIW - I sometimes still bid in their auctions, but when I do, I always set a very low snipe and almost never win.

[Runscott]

removed my post - sounded like whining :)

[tschock]

What about those of us who pay attention to the information about shilling but continue to bid what they think is fair in light of the available information?

Assuming the information is not skewed by shilling. But I get it. Similar to being familiar with those who are tough on the card grades and those who are more lenient, I take the source into account when bidding.


Nobody ever said there were no tangible costs to shilling.

My apologies. I went back and re-read. I got hung up on the "The elimination of shilling just means higher BINs for everyone." statement, though the implication is that shilling doesn't "cost" as much as no shilling from that statement. (something I still disagree with) :)

I think it is plain that the people who are upset about shilling think they are paying too much for an item (not that there is artificial market inflation). This is where I think the roads begin to diverge - one camp that stamps its feet over shilling because they are convinced that they are overpaying for items; and the other camp that appreciates the information of the feet stampers but doesn't let it get to them because they don't feel like they paid more than they wanted to.

Along with 50 shades of "stamping". ;)


Finally, offering other market inflation methods doesn't justify shilling indifference, it shows that an emphasis on the perils of shilling may be overstated if the true concern is the purity of markets.

Maybe and maybe not, and where we probably disagree. No problem there. Though I think a good "exercise left for the student" would be an analysis of BIN listing prices vs their actual sale prices as a comparison to auction style realized prices, and not just a "sold" price comparison.

[T206Collector]

If you know that the seller or his consignors are shilling, then you are supporting theft.

If Net54baseball.com decides not to support a seller by prohibiting their banner advertisements, then I will follow suit and not participate in their auctions.*

* Does not apply to signed T206 auctions! :D

[T206Collector]

I think a good "exercise left for the student" would be an analysis of BIN listing prices vs their actual sale prices as a comparison to auction style realized prices, and not just a "sold" price comparison.

Definitely. Maybe we can hire a few unpaid interns to do that. Totally worthwhile exercise!

[Runscott]

If Net54baseball.com decides not to support a seller by prohibiting their banner advertisements, then I will follow suit and not participate in their auctions.*

* Does not apply to signed T206 auctions! :D

I wouldn't recommend letting a for-profit business do your thinking for you.

[T206Collector]

I wouldn't recommend letting a for-profit business do your thinking for you.

I'm okay with Net54Baseball.com's stance on these issues. I assume you're here because you agree, too. Otherwise you're supporting their corporate sponsors - think of the click through rates on this thread alone!

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Re: baseball cards v. art (paintings)

To me baseball cards are art, the same as an oil painting. However, they are considered a lower form of art. I am surprised that so many people talked about the two as mutually exclusive.

[drcy]

That's a good point.

On the other hand, this site allows criticism of the advertisers and much of the complaints, critiques and information comes from this site. If it didn't allow discussion of the topics due to advertisers, then I think boycotting and disgust would be appropriate. I would chose not to participate. But Leon allows free discussion of advertisers(within reasonable parameters, including posters have to identify themselves when accusing).

The CU board, of course, does things differently than over here :) But then, as far as I know, PSA has also never publicly said the PSA9 T206 Honus Wagner was trimmed even after the trimmer himself pleaded guilty to it in court. But I'm a reasonable guy and will give them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I missed it and they have admitted it was trimmed. Or perhaps they intended to but were distracted by a shiny object on the ground and forgot. After all, show me a tinfoil pinwheel or some rainbow sparkle and I'll forget the whole world around me including what is my middle name.

There are no pinwheels or sparkle nearby, so, for the record, I can post that my middle name is Ned. Please write that down in case I later forget.

I'm ethical but easily distracted. If it weren't for my movie star looks and exquisite fashion sense, I wouldn't survive in this world.

[Runscott]

T206collector, you are making a huge unfounded assumption. I am here because I like discussing vintage baseball and it's the best place to do it.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

I would not boycott net54 because I disagreed with a few of their business decisions, nor would I put you on ignore because you have opinions I disagree with. I will not; however, bid on stuff offered by shillers or those who allow it.

The rationalization that goes on here, to justify 'getting neat stuff' is truly mind-boggling.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

The rationalization that goes on here, to justify 'getting neat stuff' is truly mind-boggling.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

Truly. But not surprising.

[MattyC]

I find a "holier-than-thou" vibe as troubling as shilling ;)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I find a "holier-than-thou" vibe as troubling as shilling ;)

Not as troubling as a self-satisfied, too cool for school vibe. :)

[nolemmings]

Not as troubling as a self-satisfied, too cool for school vibe. :)

Depends on who you ask.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Depends on who you ask.

I had no intention of asking you, Todd. :)

[nolemmings]

I had no intention of asking you, Todd. :)

Wise man--usually I would just say wise guy :)

[Runscott]

I find a "holier-than-thou" vibe as troubling as shilling ;)

Nice deflection.

[MattyC]

I have nothing to deflect.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Why can't we all just get along?

[Runscott]

This is really a non-productive discussion. I get it that some of you feel that it's fine to bid on shilled auctions. I won't continue trying to convince you not to, but please do not try to convince the rest of us that supporting such auctions is something that we should do. It's reminding me of the kid in the candy store who tries to convince the other kids that it's okay to steal because you can get away with it and no one will notice. It's true for shilled auctions as well, so I can't argue with such logic.

You guys knock yourself out with this - I've got better things to do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't care about right and wrong, I just want to do what's best for ME.

[nolemmings]

I don't care about right and wrong, I just want to do what's best for ME.

At first I thought you were being sarcastic, even without the appropriate emoticon. But then I see that this is consistent with what you said two years ago:
As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=150173&highlight=hidden

Enlightened self-interest?

[oddball]

:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

At first I thought you were being sarcastic, even without the appropriate emoticon. But then I see that this is consistent with what you said two years ago:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=150173&highlight=hidden

Enlightened self-interest?

Todd good cross my friend!! Seriously, my thinking definitely has evolved and I have no trouble admitting that. A couple of years ago I was troubled mostly by card doctoring and, perhaps naively, assumed shill bidding was confined to a few of the big name auction houses. I still am, of course, troubled by card doctoring. And continue to think it's the bigger issue. But as the evidence of suspicious auction after suspicious auction of certain ebay sellers has mounted, it has troubled and pissed me off increasingly, and I decided I just wouldn't bid in certain auctions any more because I did not want to support them, however trivial an impact that has.

[nolemmings]

Fair enough, but I think I liked the old Peter_Spaeth better. :)

[steve B]

What about those of us who pay attention to the information about shilling but continue to bid what they think is fair in light of the available information?

Nobody ever said there were no tangible costs to shilling. I think it is plain that the people who are upset about shilling think they are paying too much for an item (not that there is artificial market inflation). This is where I think the roads begin to diverge - one camp that stamps its feet over shilling because they are convinced that they are overpaying for items; and the other camp that appreciates the information of the feet stampers but doesn't let it get to them because they don't feel like they paid more than they wanted to.

Finally, offering other market inflation methods doesn't justify shilling indifference, it shows that an emphasis on the perils of shilling may be overstated if the true concern is the purity of markets.


The question I would have for you is this.

WHY do you think your bid is a fair one?

If you assume there's been no market manipulation - shilling or otherwise- then you're operating outside of what most collectors in any field do.

For most collectibles there are pricing resources. I've been involved in a few hobbies where there is or was little to no readily available pricing information. (Films, the racing bikes, and to some degree cards before 1979-80. ) Under that condition, hobbyists are free to assign value based on their own opinion and budget. Having tastes outside the average means that's usually worked well for me. The stuff I like is often ignored by most collectors and is comparatively cheap. The cycling jersey I mentioned in an earlier post was worn in the 48 Olympics, and was a whole lot less expensive than any game worn baseball item from the same era. (Yeah, probably including uniform pants)

But those are small hobbies. Most collectors need a price guide of some sort.
And that's where a popular hobby can have problems.

If the price guide uses actual reported sales, it's very prone to manipulation. If it doesn't use actual sales then it IS the manipulation. Sometimes not by much, sometimes more seriously. There have been lots of guides that showed higher prices for stuff the writer had and lower prices for items they wanted but didn't have.

So is your hypothetical $100 card a $100 card because you personally place that value on it regardless of previous sales?
Or is it a $100 card because the last 10 sales averaged $100 or over?

If it's the latter, how is it you can't see the problem caused by price manipulation?
If it's the former, a tip of the cap to you!


My pricing method is fairly complex, sometimes I'll decide what to bid or what I want to pay based on previous sales. Sometimes I believe an item is worth more to me than the typical sale price - often tempered by budget. It's more my impression of whether an item is currently over or undervalued. I go more by price guides in hobbies where the prices are typically stable, more by instinct in hobbies where there's no guide or for items I think are special.

My general feeling is that the big consignors don't shill themselves. But also don't make a major effort to eliminate those who do or appear to.
In any business I think there's a point where certain things are tolerated. It's not right, but that's the way it is.
For instance a business could make a major effort to stop shoplifting. It's conceivable that they could stop nearly all of it. But to do that they would have to make the shopping experience inconvenient at best, or Invasive and borderline illegal at the worst. So they make just enough effort to reduce their losses to an acceptable level without driving customers away.

I've seen the opposite effect. At a rural fair they have the usual vendors. One year a guy from NYC decided to setup his tool sales booth. Which included heavy side curtains on the awning that were staked into the ground. Then double row of snow fencing, a chrome railing like fence and metal detectors. He was incredibly unpopular. Around noon, he started making loud comments about the cheapness of the fairgoers who weren't buying his stuff. Most didn't even bother entering the booth. When he started packing up shortly after, and swearing at pretty much anyone walking by he drew the attention of a few of the local farm workers. Fortunately one of the local cops defused the situation before it reached the brawl level. (Some stuff was thrown, and some threats made by both sides, which was let slide. ) When things calmed down some of the old guys took him aside and explained that his entire setup was insulting. he explained that in his usual flea market if he didn't have the fence and metal detectors he probably wouldn't have a truck left to drive home, let alone any of his inventory.

There's some lesson in there about balance, and balance in different situations, but it's late and I'm rambling.

Steve B

[doug.goodman]

I haven't been on the site for a few days, so I just saw this thread for the first time.

I'm WAY to lazy to read thru it, so apologies if others have posted similar thoughts to mine :

I bid the most that I am willing to pay for an item to get it into my collection.

I don't care what it's sold for in the past.

I don't care what it's "worth".

I have been know to send offers for less than 10% of the asking price. With a polite note. Sometimes they are accepted. Sometimes they are not.

I collect a lot of stuff that few others want, that tends to keep my costs down, although the lovely wife might disagree.

As far as shilling of items that I bid on is concerned, I would prefer that it didn't happen, and I am sure that it has at times cost me money. But, there isn't really anything that I can do to stop it, especially since ebay tacitly encourages it.

Doug

[Gamebits]

Well quite a thread to read through and all I have to say is being honest cost me money for no reason since obviously some people just like to be screwed.

But seriously one thing that could reduce the shilling is if eBay would remove all the bids made by a buyer who retracted is last bid and bring the price down to where it should be in the first place, but why would they.

[slipk1068]

I went over 8 months without bidding on any auctions from the 2 big ebay dealers that seem to condone shill bidding. This was 100% a result of what I learned from reading threads like this. Thank you all for outing fraud in our hobby.

I would see so many awesome cards up for auction and I would pass on them. So many cards sold for less than I was willing to pay, but it felt good to know I was standing on my principles and not supporting this behavior.

I fell off the wagon a few days ago. Fired about 10 snipes at cards that I liked and won 1. The card came in the mail today. I love the card, but I actually feel guilty like I did something wrong. Maybe you folks can tell me I did do something wrong and continue pointing out fraud with threads like this so hopefully, I wont fall off the wagon again.

[ALR-bishop]

And a mighty fine use of the word it was Doug :)

[Runscott]

As far as shilling of items that I bid on is concerned, I would prefer that it didn't happen, and I am sure that it has at times cost me money. But, there isn't really anything that I can do to stop it, especially since ebay tacitly encourages it.

Doug

It is amazing to me how many people can't stop themselves from bidding on items that are being sold by sellers who are known to allow shilling and/or shill. And the excuse is that they can't personally stop the shilling. Not picking on you, Doug, as I realize that probably 1/2 to 2/3 of our forum members can't keep from pressing the bid button in such situations, and freely admit it.

Not sure why I re-visited this thread, but I didn't read any of the new posts until I saw your name, and since you have bought stuff from me in the past, and I respect your opinion, so I was curious what your thoughts were on the type of sellers described in this thread.

[calvindog]

It is amazing to me how many people can't stop themselves from bidding on items that are being sold by sellers who are known to allow shilling and/or shill.

What's more amazing by far is the amount of purportedly educated people who are convinced that fraud in our hobby isn't a big deal and that they can control it. Of course, I'd like to be there when they sell their collections and get pennies on the dollar for their cards.

[ullmandds]

I have bought cards from PWCC and Probstein over the years...but not since all of this nonsense has come out. I often will see cards on ebay...click the link and see they are one of these two and I move on.

If one of them had a card I had to have...I'd bid accordingly...I may even overbid but that's my prerogative.

[Runscott]

I have bought cards from PWCC and Probstein over the years...but not since all of this nonsense has come out. I often will see cards on ebay...click the link and see they are one of these two and I move on.

If one of them had a card I had to have...I'd bid accordingly...I may even overbid but that's my prerogative.

At least you have rules that you go by most of the time, and don't make excuses. We all bend our self-imposed rules every now and then.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least you have rules that you go by most of the time, and don't make excuses. We all bend our self-imposed rules every now and then.

Nah, Ullman is weak. :D:D

[Runscott]

...

[ullmandds]

you guys are right...I AM weak! and if I were going to cleveland I would be drinking...but it doesn't look like theres going to be a net54 dinner...regardless...I will be drinking at the paul mccartney concert here in the twin cities that weekend.

I will miss you all dearly!

[Runscott]

...

[drcy]

In my opinion, contributing to the profits of a company you know is acting highly unethically and breaking the law is by definition being unethical. You can tell me reasons why you do it-- and some of those reasons may contain logic and sense and I can see your practical card collecting point of view--, but those are reasons for why you are acting unethically, not reasons for why it not unethical.

And I don't want to hear theoretical comparisons of buying baseball cards to procuring bread and eggs for your starving family from an ethically challenged food industry, because we're talking about baseball cards here, something you don't have to buy. And, besides, perhaps your food buying habits should be more influenced by ethics than it is.

And pointing out that others act unethically is neither here nor there. If you and 501 others act unethically then you and 501 others act unethically. If half of collectors act unethically and the only way you can win a card is to also act unethically, then half of collectors act unethically and the only way you can win a card is to also act unethically. I understand the reasoning, but didn't see the word "ethically" once in that last sentence.

That's the way I see it. After reading the posts in the thread I certainly don't expect that everyone will agree with me.

[Runscott]

...

[Cardboard Junkie]

In my opinion, contributing to the profits of a company you know is acting unethically and breaking the law is by definition being unethical. You can tell me reasons why do it-- and maybe some of those reasons contain logic and sense and I can see your practical point of view--, but those are reasons for why you are acting unethically, not reasons for why it not unethical.

And I don't want to hear theoretic comparisons to procuring bread and eggs for your starving family from an ethically challenged food industry, because we're talking about baseball cards, something you don't have to buy. And, besides, perhaps your food buying habits should be more influenced by ethics than it is.

That's the way I see it. After reading the posts in the thread I certainly don't expect that everyone will agree with me.
David, Do you mean by allowing certain sellers to advertise here or by buying from them, or both. BTW I think I agree with you.:)

[Leon]

David, Do you mean by allowing certain sellers to advertise here or by buying from them, or both. BTW I think I agree with you.:)

Hey Dave
Any time you don't like this place you can get the F--- out. It won't hurt my feelings.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Would it hurt your feelings if I stayed?:)

[Leon]

Would it hurt your feelings if I stayed?:)

That worked well for ya'.

[Runscott]

...

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

David, Do you mean by allowing certain sellers to advertise here or by buying from them, or both. BTW I think I agree with you.:)


Don't make this argument about something it's not. Ebay is one thing and the board is another.

[Leon]

Don't make this argument about something it's not. Ebay is one thing and the board is another.

Just in case you didn't notice, David won't be participating with us anymore. He had been banned once before for going completely ballistic with an extremely vile post towards me that stayed up for a few hours. He was gone for 6 mos to a year (or more) and pleaded to come back, so I said ok. Because of that he was already on a short leash. Now he is free to do what he wants, somewhere else.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion, contributing to the profits of a company you know is acting unethically and breaking the law is by definition being unethical. You can tell me reasons why do it-- and maybe some of those reasons contain logic and sense and I can see your practical point of view--, but those are reasons for why you are acting unethically, not reasons for why it not unethical.

And I don't want to hear theoretical comparisons of buying baseball cards to procuring bread and eggs for your starving family from an ethically challenged food industry, because we're talking about baseball cards here, something you don't have to buy. And, besides, perhaps your food buying habits should be more influenced by ethics than it is.

And pointing out that others also act unethically is besides the point.

That's the way I see it. After reading the posts in the thread I certainly don't expect that everyone will agree with me.

I wouldn't go as far as David here, and I am sure I am not 100 percent consistent in life, but I do think just not doing business with people whose activities are highly suspicious is the right thing to do.

Some of the rationalizations I've seen here could be used to justify bidding in an Al Qaeda fundraiser. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if people would do just that if they had that key card.

[drcy]

I'm neither a saint nor a zealot, though believe in calling a spade a spade. And sometimes people mistake an observation for an opinion.

My post on ethics was part personal value judgment and part logical explanation. It wasn't entirely my value judgment and certainly not a how to guide to collecting covering all ethical conundrums and gray situations, though my personal views were strongly implied.

I mean someone can agree with my definition of ethics, but think ethics are of lesser importance. I'm sure many unethical people consider themselves unethical. Some are even unapologetic about it.

[nolemmings]

Leon, with all due respect, you can shoot/ban the messenger, but I don't see how the question is invalid. Since we were just given an unsolicited opinion on who is acting ethically in the hobby, where it was suggested that any business contact with a company that itself is acting "highly unethically" and "breaking the law" (with an apparent inference that at least one and likely two specific ebay sellers identified in this thread qualify) is also unethical, how is it not fair to question the ethics of allowing these nefarious people to advertise here?

[MyGuyTy]

Post of the year. My tears might be in Hawaii by now.

You got some fast moving tears! Next time you cry, PM me, I'm riding a tear to paradise :D

[Brian Van Horn]

You got some fast moving tears! Next time you cry, PM me, I'm riding a tear to paradise :D

So, that would be two tickets to paradise?

[MyGuyTy]

So, that would be two tickets to paradise?

Pack your bags, we'll leave tonight......

Scott commence the tears again!

[Brian Van Horn]

Pack your bags, we'll leave tonight......

Scott commence the tears again!

I think I just got banned from Eddie Money concerts. I can live with that.

[steve B]

Umm......

If we need to abandon all contact with businesses that behave badly at times, we'll have to shut this whole thing down.

I can't think of any major computer industry company that hasn't been in legal trouble or that hasn't engaged in some questionable practices at some time.

And Then...............

I suppose going to shows is out. Since I'd have to get there by car. Which means using gas, and contributing to the profits of oil companies.

Perhaps if I became a hermit?

Ah, but I've done stuff in the past that I'm not exactly proud of.

If I'm withdrawing ALL contact, that's kind of a problem.


The high road is great, and we should try to stay on it as much as possible.
But taken to extremes it just isn't practical.

Steve B

[Leon]

Leon, with all due respect, you can shoot/ban the messenger, but I don't see how the question is invalid. Since we were just given an unsolicited opinion on who is acting ethically in the hobby, where it was suggested that any business contact with a company that itself is acting "highly unethically" and "breaking the law" (with an apparent inference that at least one and likely two specific ebay sellers identified in this thread qualify) is also unethical, how is it not fair to question the ethics of allowing these nefarious people to advertise here?

Todd, the question was perfectly valid, if you will notice I didn't ban him for questioning any advertising, questioning a seller, or what goes on on this board. Please look at the timing of posts carefully. Anyone can question anything, that is fine. I have no issue with the debate. What I have issue with is someone that was banned before, being given a second chance, and then taunting me about being on the board. I told him if he didn't like the board he can leave. That is true for anyone.. He has his moments but his sh** to equity ratio was poor. I have never banned anyone for questioning what goes on on the board. Now if someone is relentlessly attacking me, or someone else, and won't quit, then that might get them banned too. But his banning wasn't concerning his questioning of advertising..It was for screwing with me.

[Brian Van Horn]

Leon,

I see what you are saying on the behavioral aspect, but can we delete the profanity? I am not trying to be funny. It is obvious the guy got under your skin, but keep the foul language out of the conversation.

[Leon]

Leon,

I see what you are saying on the behavioral aspect, but can we delete the profanity? I am not trying to be funny. It is obvious the guy got under your skin, but keep the foul language out of the conversation.

Duly noted. I don't want to offend any members with my harsh language.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Umm......

If we need to abandon all contact with businesses that behave badly at times, we'll have to shut this whole thing down.

I can't think of any major computer industry company that hasn't been in legal trouble or that hasn't engaged in some questionable practices at some time.

And Then...............

I suppose going to shows is out. Since I'd have to get there by car. Which means using gas, and contributing to the profits of oil companies.

Perhaps if I became a hermit?

Ah, but I've done stuff in the past that I'm not exactly proud of.

If I'm withdrawing ALL contact, that's kind of a problem.


The high road is great, and we should try to stay on it as much as possible.
But taken to extremes it just isn't practical.

Steve B

Steve that's all true but it remains the case that if one believes someone selling baseball cards is not ethical, it's pretty simple not to do business with them instead of rationalizing it.

[Runscott]

...

[calvindog]

Guys, we have people here who think that even though they've been shilled they are not victims of fraud. This is a bigger issue.

[jhs5120]

Guys, we have people here who think that even though they've been shilled they are not victims of fraud. This is a bigger issue.

Every member of this forum has been a victim of hobby related fraud in one way or another. We have all purchased cards off ebay and through auction houses. We have all been suckered into graded cards, or have been affected by the absurd price manipulation that comes with it. Every one of us has been duped one way or another - reprints, altered cards, forged autographs or general ebay scum. Each one of us is a victim of fraud, anyone with a card collection who says otherwise is delusional.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Every member of this forum has been a victim of hobby related fraud in one way or another. We have all purchased cards off ebay and through auction houses. We have all been suckered into graded cards, or have been affected by the absurd price manipulation that comes with it. Every one of us has been duped one way or another - reprints, altered cards, forged autographs or general ebay scum. Each one of us is a victim of fraud, anyone with a card collection who says otherwise is delusional.

Sad but true, but still, the fact that the sea is rough does not mean one should not try one's best to navigate it.

[steve B]

Steve that's all true but it remains the case that if one believes someone selling baseball cards is not ethical, it's pretty simple not to do business with them instead of rationalizing it.

I'm not rationalizing, I try to avoid sellers I know are questionable. I also don't make much effort to investigate any particular seller. In that way I'm probably a small piece of the problem.

And I agree. Within a hobby it's easier to avoid questionable sellers.

It just struck me as mildly hypocritical for someone to say we should cut off all business with sellers who are known to at least ignore stuff like shilling. And to make that post from a computer or phone that's almost certainly got software form Microsoft(Antitrust, less than forthcoming at times) Apple (Production in factories with deplorable working conditions) Or Google (Copyright violation - many times over)

We all do business in some way with all of them.

To me the difference is that with the big corporations there isn't much choice.
And at least we can do that business knowing what sort of company we're dealing with.
I've bought from some flea market dealers I didn't trust. But did it knowing they were a bit sketchy, and made my decisions on the item at the time. There were a few I simply wouldn't bother with at all.
If you look hard enough at almost any seller there's something they've done that would bother someone. Maybe not criminal, but maybe not exactly "right" either.


I think others make some good points, fraud is here, and has been. And we probably can't stop it entirely. To think that I haven't been harmed indirectly by shilling in a major auction I don't buy from would be foolish. (Not directly since I can't afford the great stuff even unshilled) The rise in price of the good stuff raises the price of the cheaper stuff I can afford.

There are positive aspects to higher overall prices, but that's a bit too far removed from this discussion.

Pointing out fraud when it happens is a good thing.

Steve B

[Runscott]

...

[chernieto]

I'm not rationalizing, I try to avoid sellers I know are questionable. I also don't make much effort to investigate any particular seller. In that way I'm probably a small piece of the problem.

And I agree. Within a hobby it's easier to avoid questionable sellers.

It just struck me as mildly hypocritical for someone to say we should cut off all business with sellers who are known to at least ignore stuff like shilling. And to make that post from a computer or phone that's almost certainly got software form Microsoft(Antitrust, less than forthcoming at times) Apple (Production in factories with deplorable working conditions) Or Google (Copyright violation - many times over)

We all do business in some way with all of them.

To me the difference is that with the big corporations there isn't much choice.
And at least we can do that business knowing what sort of company we're dealing with.
I've bought from some flea market dealers I didn't trust. But did it knowing they were a bit sketchy, and made my decisions on the item at the time. There were a few I simply wouldn't bother with at all.
If you look hard enough at almost any seller there's something they've done that would bother someone. Maybe not criminal, but maybe not exactly "right" either.


I think others make some good points, fraud is here, and has been. And we probably can't stop it entirely. To think that I haven't been harmed indirectly by shilling in a major auction I don't buy from would be foolish. (Not directly since I can't afford the great stuff even unshilled) The rise in price of the good stuff raises the price of the cheaper stuff I can afford.

There are positive aspects to higher overall prices, but that's a bit too far removed from this discussion.

Pointing out fraud when it happens is a good thing.

Steve B

well said

[chernieto]

Two problems with that statement: 1) if they want the card, they will rationalize a new definition for "ethical", or rationalize how the seller can't be proven to be unethical; 2) it's much simpler to rationalize a way to get something you want, especially if you have the power to make it happen, then to avoid the thing you want. It's what used to allow me to have a hamburger and beer as my pre-race meal. If I had been a vegetarian on ethical grounds, this example would have covered both of my points.

Yesterday you defended an ebay seller who is offering an old mill "brown"card for 2,500$ which many knowledgeable folks here called a black back. It seems to me that that listing is deceptive and unethical or worse. You seemed to have no problem rationalizing that the seller is actually honest and well respected and ethical.
I spent over an hour last night looking at old threads which try to prove out the shill bidding clearly because I tend to rationalize as well: I trust PWCC & Brent and don't believe he would ever ruin his reputation by allowing it to occur with his knowledge. I know cards I consigned were never shilled. And I have trouble seeing all unusual bidding is actually shill bidding. every ebay participant once had 0 feedback or low feedback. PWCC advertises more than most and it's hard to miss when he has 1 card closing every minute all night. I believe that attracts a lot of new ebay bidders. Some of us have strange bidding practices hitting the bid button a lot and looking for the current high bid. Bid retractions are to me inexplicable and clearly another story and not sure why ebay wouldn't suspend someone with more than a couple in a 30 day period.
Obviously shilling is wrong and illegal. I think trying to deceive buyers about a card and overcharging for it is equally wrong. Rationalizing stuff is human and we are all guilty of it as you said

[Runscott]

...

[chernieto]

Why are you following me from thread to thread? Your position on shilling was not supportable, so you followed me over to the thread on Irishhosta. Your position regarding that topic was also not supportable, so now you are back over here being a pain in my backside.

You, my friend, are on ignore. It's a small list, but you earned it.

I'm honored to make the list. I didn't realize you have an exclusive on the threads & I find it funny that you assume it means I follow you around because I would comment on another thread. I guess you don't see the irony in discussing others lapses in ethical behavior and rationalizing while supporting a "proven honest seller"" grossly misrepresenting a card . Your first comment to me is that I am blind because my opinion doesn't match yours. I believe my positions are supportable & your arrogance is not
With all due respect.
Paul C

[Runscott]

...

[nolemmings]

Now we can get back to having an intelligent discussion.

And the arrogance continues.

[chernieto]

Scott,
Ethics and rationalizations aside I understand for some people ignoring points raised in a discussion rather than addressing differences is an easy route to take.

[Runscott]

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[Runscott]

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[vintagetoppsguy]

You, my friend, are on ignore.

Scott,

You and I have had some pretty strong disagreements, but we never put each other on ignore. I have never used that function at all (don't even know how). I find it kind of childish to ingore all posts of someone I disagree with. And though we disagree on some things, I still agree with you on a lot of other things. It's ok to disagree. You are one of my favorite posters on here. In fact, some of the people I've disagreed the most with are some of my favorite posters. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you can't respect their opinion if it differs from yours. That's just me, but even the people I disagree with still have valuable information sometimes, and why miss that?

DJ

[Leon]

And that's exactly what criminals like Bill Mastro think when they're engaging in their fraud: 'they want the card anyway, why is shilling it up a problem?' Hell, Bill still thinks that and he's cooperating with the Feds against other criminals in our hobby.

Jeff- I went back and re-read a statement I made in this thread and want to amend it here. I said to "just put a bid/snipe in and be done with it." I think that is still the case but it doesn't mean I WANT to pay that much if I don't need to, in a legal auction setting. I am not condoning, what looks to be, the fraud that we see going on with the bidding patterns and id's. I am not OK with getting ripped off. If I inadvertently stated otherwise then that was a mistake. If we see fraud going on then it is for the good of the hobby to expose it. Please keep doing what you are doing, but be nice :).

[Sean1125]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/261/508/7ad.jpg

[Runscott]

...

[drcy]

I don't think there are easy answers, especially when applying to the real world. I think there can be compromise and things are rarely black and white and the real world situations can be complex. If all pants makers are unethical, I don't expect you to walk around without pants. Realize I grew up in the Northern Midwest and it can get chilly here in Seattle too. I don't rank every misdemeanor as a felony, nor do I expect people to be Saints (Though, to be candid, I expect people to be good people. Sorry, but I don't give excuses for stealing money from honest people or lying in auction descriptions. Use your rationalizations on someone else).

But, while I think one's ethics can sometimes justifiably be compromised on occasion ("All food makers are unethical in some way, but I actually have to eat and already have a full time job and can't start my own farm. I have to make some sort of practical compromise"), if all it takes to toss out one's ethics is to get a kid's baseball card, that's pretty sad. If there is a is god as commonly described, I would imagine he doesn't forgive your sins because they were done in the pursuit of gathering baseball cards.

And I'm not telling you what your ethics should be. I'm not saying I have the universal definition and here is what the are. But, for a starting point, you should know what are your ethical beliefs. And you know what is right and wrong by your definitions and you should be aware when you are breaking your rules in the of baseball cards. You know when you are really just rationalizing, if to yourself more even than to others. You know when you are manipulating definitions to meet your card collecting aims.

You don't have to argue to me your points. You don't have to convince me of anything. You don't have to convince me that this or that offense is really just an ethical parking ticket not a felony, and you more than make up for it by being good to your family and giving to charity. But you should have the discussion with yourself. And, in the end, if you are breaking your personal ethical rules but honestly believe it's justifiable in the pursuit of baseball cards, that's the way it is. The discussion was with yourself, and my and others' opinions and belief systems are neither here nor there. We weren't even in the room to hear your points, much less offer opinions on them.

P.s. Don't call me holier than thou after I said my personal belief system was neither here nor there.

P.s.s. Or at least have the decency to say it behind my back and not to my face.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve yes you could by Socratic method push even the most ethical person to the point where he would have to admit that he is not being completely pure or consistent. But so what? That doesn't undercut the legitimacy of taking the obvious step of foregoing card purchases from known or strongly suspected fraudsters. It's like Robert Bork allegedly said -- just because there is a slippery slope doesn't mean you have to ski it to the bottom.

[nolemmings]

or someone like Todd who joins a fray just to pile-on because of past disagreements

I would ask you what the hell you are talking about, but that might imply I care.

[Runscott]

...

[nolemmings]

Oh you clever little bird--you know me so well. Blather on.

[Runscott]

...

[MyGuyTy]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/myguyty366/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps0e3744de.jpg

[Runscott]

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[nolemmings]

Scott, perhaps you could place me on your ignore list too. I welcome it actually-- it beats getting repeatedly skewered by your brilliant repartee.

[chernieto]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1274099]David, you are completely correct on all counts. But I have no idea why you think that I do not respect someone's opinion, or that I don't think others have the right to disagree with me. I completely respect ALL opinions on this forum. This particular thread is a bit different, in that we are talking about cheating, and whether or not it's okay. Having an opinion that cheating or stealing is okay, is a bit different from having an opinion that a card has been trimmed or that guns should be allowed in churches and bars. What I absolutely do NOT respect is a nit who uses 25% of his total posts to follow me around attempting to be a pain in my ass, or someone like Todd who joins a fray just to pile-on because of past disagreements. What do either of those situations have to do with 'opinion'? And how am I 'arrogant' for basically telling him to pound sand?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Usually when you call people blind, a nit they respond negatively. You address people respectfully they generally respond in kind. Not everyone has 6,500 posts...If you choose to judge a net54 member by the number of posts that's clearly your call...go right ahead. Don't insult me....Please leave me on your exclusive ignore list & enjoy life & try to insult less people.
Paul C

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/myguyty366/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps0e3744de.jpg


Hahaha! I could not have described this thread more eloquently myself.

[Runscott]

...

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Agreed :(



Fortunately, I hear an ambulance and an ice-cream truck, so that will leave me arguing with myself.


I don't get it.