Bob Feller - Is he a top tier Hall of Famer?

[bcbgcbrcb]

I wanted to ask for everyone's opinion on the above subject. I have decided to trim down my original 300 piece Baseball Hall of Fame Rookie Cards collection to include only the pre-war, "top tier" players. Based on my synopsis, I have a total of 21 HOF'ers plus Shoeless Joe (couldn't leave him out) but am on the fence with one individual, Bob Feller. In the context of pre-war HOF'ers, would you consider Feller to be top tier or just a step below?

[slipk1068]

half a step below

[sayhey24]

Absolutely yes -- and four years serving his country in WW II.

Greg

[calvindog]

He would have had 350 wins if not for his military service -- absolutely.

[HRBAKER]

I say no question

[jp1216]

Yes vote here. OT - I was in Des Moines 2 weeks ago and really wanted to go to his museum in Van Meter (10 miles from my hotel). Unfortunately, it is only open 3 days a week during the season. May not survive too much longer (in Iowa anyway). :(

[Peter_Spaeth]

My top tier would be
Anson
Cobb
Speaker
Wagner
Lajoie
Collins
Johnson
Young
Mathewson
Alexander
Hornsby
Ruth
Grove
Gehrig
Foxx
Greenberg
Feller
DiMaggio
Williams

[bender07]

My top tier would be
Anson
Cobb
Speaker
Wagner
Lajoie
Collins
Johnson
Young
Mathewson
Alexander
Hornsby
Ruth
Grove
Gehrig
Foxx
Greenberg
Feller
DiMaggio
Williams

No Mays or Aaron? And yes, feller is top tier.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I agree with you on 100% of your names, Peter and also have included Ott, Sisler & Delahanty.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree with you on 100% of your names, Peter and also have included Ott, Sisler & Delahanty.

If I had to include more it would be Ott and Hubbell. I sort of buy into the Bill James theory that Sisler is tremendously overrated.

[KCRfan1]

He would have had 350 wins if not for his military service -- absolutely.

And add on 1000 strikeouts. Feller is underrated as a HoF'r imo. He had just over 260 wins ( 266 I believe ) and less than 2600 strikeouts. For the time he did play, the numbers speak for themselves. If not for his service in the military, 350 wins and 3500 k's. Feller would be routinely mentioned with the greats of the game. I think he gets overlooked many times since he did not hit those magic numbers for pitchers, 300 wins and or 3000 strikeouts.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Since I have a tendency to underrate Pitchers, same question with this small group of four pitchers:

Mordecai Brown
Eddie Plank
Rube Waddell
Addie Joss

I should also mention that I am not including Negro Leaguers in this survey.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Since I have a tendency to underrate Pitchers, same question with this small group of four pitchers:

Mordecai Brown
Eddie Plank
Rube Waddell
Addie Joss

I should also mention that I am not including Negro Leaguers in this survey.

Of those, only Plank, given the number of wins. Brown's stats such as ERA seem great but adjusted for the era they aren't nearly as impressive.

[tedzan]

My top tier would be
Anson
Cobb
Speaker
Wagner
Lajoie
Collins
Johnson
Young
Mathewson
Alexander
Hornsby
Ruth
Grove
Gehrig
Foxx
Greenberg
Feller
DiMaggio
Williams


Peter

My sentiments exactly....and, I will round out your list to 20 by adding Eddie Plank.


TED Z

[calvindog]

Of those, only Plank, given the number of wins. Brown's stats such as ERA seem great but adjusted for the era they aren't nearly as impressive.

Brown's adjusted ERA career numbers are one of the top alltime, ahead of Mathewson, Cy Young and Grover Cleveland Alexander. I don't see how he doesn't get included in the 'elite' status; however, he didn't get elected to the HOF until 1949 by the Veterans' Committee, so maybe there's something to what you're saying.

[sniffy5]

I think Feller definitely is an "A" list Hall of Famer (there are far too many "B", and even "C" listers). And If he had happened to spend a career as a Yankee from '36 to '56, or a Dodger, I'm thinking he would probably be thought of as a truly legendary icon and celebrated in a way he never was post career. True, that can be said of many a great player...

[shelly]

I am from Cleveland. His signiture might not be worth anything but as a pitcher he was an A list HOF. I dont think you can name a better pitcher during that time. He always said they took the greatest four years of my life. I belive that. It is like what would Ted Williams had done with six more years.

[slipk1068]

Can't argue with putting him on the list. I just consider him a half a step below. To me elite means:
Cobb
Speaker
Wagner
Lajoie
Johnson
Mathewson
Alexander
Hornsby
Ruth
Foxx
Williams

Add Feller and you also must consider Spahn, Carlton, and Seaver. Maybe Dizzy Dean? and what about Willie Mays. All a half a step below my elite list except maybe Willie Mays.

[slipk1068]

I think Feller definitely is an "A" list Hall of Famer (there are far too many "B", and even "C" listers). And If he had happened to spend a career as a Yankee from '36 to '56, or a Dodger, I'm thinking he would probably be thought of as a truly legendary icon and celebrated in a way he never was post career. True, that can be said of many a great player...

Good point

[slipk1068]

I am from Cleveland. His signiture might not be worth anything but as a pitcher he was an A list HOF. I dont think you can name a better pitcher during that time. He always said they took the greatest four years of my life. I belive that. It is like what would Ted Williams had done with six more years.

Signature might not be worth anything, but at least he was out there on the front lines signing, hanging out with the fans, taking pictures, and being a great ambassador for the game. Can't say as much for some of these Bozos that get $100 or more for their autograph. Nice guy. GREAT Pitcher. GREAT American.

[DaveW]

"Add Feller and you also must consider Spahn, Carlton, and Seaver. Maybe Dizzy Dean? and what about Willie Mays. All a half a step below my elite list except maybe Willie Mays."

The OP did say pre-war, so you can't really include these guys, except Dean.

[Runscott]

Absolutely. Right behind Phil Niekro and Don Sutton in my HOF team 5-man starting rotation.

That was sarcasm - Feller is definitely top-tier

[wolf441]

Absolutely top tier in my book, but I'm very partial to the guys that served our country in WWII.

[slipk1068]

"Add Feller and you also must consider Spahn, Carlton, and Seaver. Maybe Dizzy Dean? and what about Willie Mays. All a half a step below my elite list except maybe Willie Mays."

The OP did say pre-war, so you can't really include these guys, except Dean.

oops i missed that. my mistake thanks.

[slipk1068]

Absolutely. Right behind Phil Niekro and Don Sutton in my HOF team 5-man starting rotation.

That was sarcasm - Feller is definitely top-tier

Sarcasm? Meaning Seaver, Sphan and Carlton are right up there with Neikro and Sutton in your 5 man rotation? Maybe I read this response wrong too.

[sniffy5]

I think, rightfully so, many of us quickly assign automatic top-tier status to the early 19th century greats of the game. We love their cards, collect them ravenously, and they were great players. And there are no "but"s about to follow. I think we are somewhat reluctant to grant absolute icon status to a player we have seen play, or played post '40's. DiMaggio and a few others are exceptions of course. Mantle was great, but K'd constantly. Held that record til Reggie came along. Can a top tier player really be the guy who struck out more than anyone? Or just about anyone? I think there is Hall of Fame A, and it is quite small, and Hall of Fame B, and it is very varied and fine the way it is, but has players that don't belong in A. Clearly don't belong.

I think most of the early players thought of as top tier would be somewhat "era proof," meaning they would excel similarly today. I think one player that is completely era-proof is Pete Rose. And I'm not from Cincy and don't spend a second caring if he gets into the Hall. And we all saw him play, and I think he gets 4000+ hits if he's born in 1875 or 1985. Sorry for the digression....

[irishdenny]

I would at least Add:

"BiG Ed" Walsh ~ Lowest ERA of All Time!
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Sandy Koufax

To All of the Above Mention'd... I'm assuming that the Top Tier is at least 50 Players!?

Feller is a Shoe iN!!! imho, "If You were the BEST iN the World for 5 Years... Then You are Top Tier!

[pclpads]

Perhaps the naysayers on the poll and posters are influenced by BF's prevalence on the auto circuit. He was likely signing with the last breath he drew. As a result, he loses some uniqueness and his greatness is diminished making him falsely appear to be a lesser tier player. He began his career in the late '30's, when fellow HOFer's Hubbell, Dean, Gomez and Ruffing were ending theirs. As a pre-war hurler, he was more dominant than they and more deserving of a top tier grade. And you can't compare BF to Matty, Young, Alexander, Johnson, Plank or Brown. All were similarly dominant in their time, but it was a different game, different era. Like comparing Pujols to Ruth.

[TUM301]

Feller is a top tier HOF`er without a doubt. The fact that he unselfishly served his country for 4 years and was trully one of the great ambassadors for the game just puts the icing on the HOF cake for me. Don`t think you`d have to take any player off your present list but "Bullett " Bob was extra special for a long time during baseball`s golden age. My 2 cents....

[Harliduck]

I would 100% vote Feller as a Top Tier HOFer...BUT...


...I have a hard time stomaching him being talked about as "such a great person" bs...in 1983 he came to my home town card shop for an autograph signing. I was 13 at the time. I was waiting in a small line of about 12 people to get his autograph...all he did was bitch that not enough people were there, he kept letting the small group know he was the greatest of all time, ripped on any of the players of that days game, yelled at the shop keep constantly with his petty demands, swore in front of the kids several times, wouldn't shut up (total windbag), and hit on my mom in front of my dad! As I walked out of the shop I threw his autograph in the garbage. I am UNDERSTATING the visit...and my dad almost decked him. We came back about a week later, and the shop owner couldn't apologize enough and said he was completely awful the entire time. Total douchebag.

[KCRfan1]

I would 100% vote Feller as a Top Tier HOFer...BUT...


...I have a hard time stomaching him being talked about as "such a great person" bs...in 1983 he came to my home town card shop for an autograph signing. I was 13 at the time. I was waiting in a small line of about 12 people to get his autograph...all he did was bitch that not enough people were there, he kept letting the small group know he was the greatest of all time, ripped on any of the players of that days game, yelled at the shop keep constantly with his petty demands, swore in front of the kids several times, wouldn't shut up (total windbag), and hit on my mom in front of my dad! As I walked out of the shop I threw his autograph in the garbage. I am UNDERSTATING the visit...and my dad almost decked him. We came back about a week later, and the shop owner couldn't apologize enough and said he was completely awful the entire time. Total douchebag.

That's terrible John. I'm guessing that you do not have or have not collected any of Feller's cards.

[Harliduck]

That's terrible John. I'm guessing that you do not have or have not collected any of Feller's cards.

I have not...

[slipk1068]

Horrible story John. I have never anything like that about him.

[Runscott]

I did not mention Carlton, etc, so yes, you misunderstood my post

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[K-Nole]

He must have been having a bad day, because when I went to see him in the late 80's, I was a teen, and he could not have been any more kind.

I informed him that he was grandpa's favorite pitcher of all time and he actually took time from his signing to talk to me about my grandpa's WWII service. Signed a beautiful 8" X 10" for free and was one of the kindest guys i had ever met.

[CMIZ5290]

Absolutely....

[Big Ben]

Very much a top tier Hall of Famer. On a side note, I saw Feller 4 times at shows in the mid 1980's. He was very nice at each show. One show was during Memorial Day weekend and was not well attended. I ended up talking baseball with Feller for over an hour!

[the 'stache]

Definitely top tier. I'll break down his stats after dinner.

[K-Nole]

Of coarse being 42 years old, I never seen him, but if my GrandPa says he was the best he ever saw, that is good enough for me!:D

[Fred]

I'm not quite sure how Feller couldn't be considered top tier. He lost almost 4seasons to military service. If you average out what he did right before and after WW2 his numbers would be around 350 wins, about 3700 Ks, his overall ERA would have been closer to 3.00 (or less) had he not missed any time to serve our country. If that aint top tier then I don't know what is.

[oldjudge]

Top tier player, even better human being. They broke the mold when they made him.

[Jayworld]

I would 100% vote Feller as a Top Tier HOFer...BUT...


...I have a hard time stomaching him being talked about as "such a great person" bs...in 1983 he came to my home town card shop for an autograph signing. I was 13 at the time. I was waiting in a small line of about 12 people to get his autograph...all he did was bitch that not enough people were there, he kept letting the small group know he was the greatest of all time, ripped on any of the players of that days game, yelled at the shop keep constantly with his petty demands, swore in front of the kids several times, wouldn't shut up (total windbag), and hit on my mom in front of my dad! As I walked out of the shop I threw his autograph in the garbage. I am UNDERSTATING the visit...and my dad almost decked him. We came back about a week later, and the shop owner couldn't apologize enough and said he was completely awful the entire time. Total douchebag.

John:
Sorry to hear about this. When I met Bob in 1987, he was nothing but gracious. He was at the Equitable Old Timers game in old Arlington Stadium, and we got to meet him (and others) at the Sheraton Hotel prior to the game (meet and mingle; got plenty of signatures) along with his wife. Really cool to see my dad talk and length with him, as he was my dad's boyhood hero (evidently people from Texas in the 1930s-40s pulled for Cleveland, being the "closest" AL team…discounting the St. Louis Browns :o) He also would still bring the heat (as much as possible) in the Old Timers games, too.

[Harliduck]

Jay...it's funny...I came back to read this thread and am genuinely surprised at how different others encounters with him seem to be. I took some time and googled for any other stories folks may have written about Bob, and found many. It seems they were either these amazing occurrences or stories like mine. I will rack it up to a fellow who had good days and bad days. Nothing will shake that memory I have, but it is good to hear other great stories. I can tell you I went into that day just shocked to be meeting a complete legend, and even at 13 I was completely obsessed with all things Baseball, and left crushed.

A couple of weeks later one of my youth baseball coaches who used to be a coach with the Phillies in the early 70's took me and a couple of buddies to a Mariner game. He was still pretty connected and we got to sit in the visiting dugout and hung out with the Tigers. I hung out with Milt Wilcox (a far cry from Bob Feller! haha) and that encounter restored my faith in baseball...what an awesome guy. I told him about meeting Bob Feller, and Milt said that players from that generation were tougher and overall played hard and were hard. He told me to forget about it. I will never forget that conversation either. I may not have had a Bob Feller card (still don't), but I had EVERY Milt Wilcox card, haha...and still to this day smile when I see them in my binders. The whole 83 Tigers were awesome to us punk kids...

Sorry to be OT...and I will state again...I consider Feller an elite HOFer.

[Section103]

I met Feller a few times and in most instances found him to be "grumpy", though certainly not to the level of John's interaction. "Bad days" certainly happen for a lot of folks, especially those of us who are older and those who have been through a lot. To me, it's just a real solid reminder that we don't really know these athletes like we want or think we do. My ex-wife, based on one interaction, simply cannot stand Tony Gwynn; yet most people consider him quite personable. I try to keep this in mind whenever athletes are being lauded or raked over the coals.

To the original question, I guess it really depends on what "top tier" means. For the HOF, that number is very low - like 10 or so. I don't think Feller reaches that level, but then my definition may be largely different than most.

[Runscott]

I have never bought the argument that old people get to be grumpy. You shoudn't be using your extra years as an excuse for earned bad behavior. You should be getting wiser with age, if for no other reason than that you have put in more years of observing than younger people. We all know examples of both ends of the spectrum.

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[steve B]

Jay...it's funny...I came back to read this thread and am genuinely surprised at how different others encounters with him seem to be. I took some time and googled for any other stories folks may have written about Bob, and found many. It seems they were either these amazing occurrences or stories like mine. I will rack it up to a fellow who had good days and bad days. Nothing will shake that memory I have, but it is good to hear other great stories. I can tell you I went into that day just shocked to be meeting a complete legend, and even at 13 I was completely obsessed with all things Baseball, and left crushed.

A couple of weeks later one of my youth baseball coaches who used to be a coach with the Phillies in the early 70's took me and a couple of buddies to a Mariner game. He was still pretty connected and we got to sit in the visiting dugout and hung out with the Tigers. I hung out with Milt Wilcox (a far cry from Bob Feller! haha) and that encounter restored my faith in baseball...what an awesome guy. I told him about meeting Bob Feller, and Milt said that players from that generation were tougher and overall played hard and were hard. He told me to forget about it. I will never forget that conversation either. I may not have had a Bob Feller card (still don't), but I had EVERY Milt Wilcox card, haha...and still to this day smile when I see them in my binders. The whole 83 Tigers were awesome to us punk kids...

Sorry to be OT...and I will state again...I consider Feller an elite HOFer.

That does seem odd. I met him after he pitched a home run contest between games of a minor league doubleheader in 74 or 75. Very nice and very tolerant of the other kids using his autographed pictures to make paper planes(81/2 x11 printed sheet with stats on the back, and photo on the front)

I wonder if the differences were related to the venue? I went to an autograph thing at a shop - don't even remember who, nobody big. And there was a lot of friction between the owner and guest. Apparently the shop owner had got whoever to do it on a reduced fee plus so much per over some amount. The guest wanted to spend time with the few people there, and the shop guy kept pushing stuff at him to sign. Eventually they had a brief "discussion" about the arrangements. The guest expected a crowd based on promised promoting, the shop guy had basically just put up a couple hand made signs in the shop. And was figuring on getting a load of stuff for inventory cheap. Neither was all that happy.

I can picture Feller -or anyone really- getting cranky and demanding if he felt the shop wasn't holding up it's end of a deal.

Steve B

[Tabe]

I'd have no problem with Feller as a top-tier HOF'er. Don't think I'd put him there myself. Just a hair outside that elite group, I think.

To add to the story above, I have heard numerous stories about Feller being cranky, gruff, and just generally ornery. Lots of positive stories, too, but too many bad ones to comfortably call him a "great human being" or similar. And, like the other poster said, I don't believe in giving old people a pass for grumpy behavior. My wife does that and it drives me nuts.

[bosoxfan]

Can't argue with putting him on the list. I just consider him a half a step below. To me elite means:
Cobb
Speaker
Wagner
Lajoie
Johnson
Mathewson
Alexander
Hornsby
Ruth
Foxx
Williams

Add Feller and you also must consider Spahn, Carlton, and Seaver. Maybe Dizzy Dean? and what about Willie Mays. All a half a step below my elite list except maybe Willie Mays.

I think we're talking pre war but, Seaver and Carlton a half step below? WOW

[Hankphenom]

All depends on the definition of top-tier. Because of the prime years lost to war service and his overall profile of dominance in his time, he's in my top 15 all-time great pitchers, maybe closer to 10 than 15. That makes him a top 50 player, IMO, and that's a truly elite group.

As for his personality, I had several "encounters" with Feller, and you can put me down in the not-a-fan camp. I do like the fact, however, that in every interview I've seen where he was asked whether he thought he was the fastest pitcher ever, he says without hesitation that he thought that Walter Johnson had to be the fastest ever, and also the greatest pitcher ever. You have to feel a little sorry for the guy coming into the league just a few years after Johnson left, and having everyone who had seen both of them say how great he was but that he wasn't as fast, or as good, as Johnson. It had to bother the heck out of him.

And I agree with those who find no excuse for his grumpiness. The guy had a fabulous life, and even if he hadn't, it's no more trouble to be kind than to be unpleasant. My personal observation from seeing him up close several times is that he had a huge ego, and I think being able to be gruff and cranky and getting away with it was his way of proving what a great man he was.

[the 'stache]

I think we're talking pre war but, Seaver and Carlton a half step below? WOW

Ya, and what about Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson? Koufax, in his prime was, in my opinion, the second best pitcher ever behind Johnson.

The last five seasons of his career, Koufax was 111-34 (.766 win percentage!) with a 1.95 ERA, 33 shutouts, 1,444 Ks vs 316 BB in 1,377 IP. He allowed 6.3 hits per nine innings, and compiled a 0.926 WHIP. That's downright obscene for a modern pitcher, regardless of how high the mound was.

I'd also add Pedro Martinez and Greg Maddux to that top tier of Hall of Famers (once Pedro gets in, obviously).

[the 'stache]

Jesus, Pedro's 7 year peak from 1997 to 2003: 118-36 (again, .766 WP), with a 2.20 ERA, 11 shutouts, 1,761 Ks vs 315 BB in 1,408 IP. He allowed 6.4 hits per 9 IP, and compiled a 0.940 WHIP.

He won 3 Cy Young Awards (he also finished second in the Cy Young twice, and third once. He wasn't in the top 3 only once, because he only started 18 games in 2001), led his league in ERA five times (once in the NL when he played for Montreal, the others in Boston).

Greg Maddux, in his 7 year peak from 1992 to 1998: 127-53 (.706 WP), with a 2.15 ERA, 19 shutouts, 1,286 Ks vs 269 BB in 1,675 IP. He allowed 7.3 hits per 9 IP, and compiled a 0.968 WHIP. That 1.4 BB per 9 IP is just too good.

And Greg won 4 consecutive Cy Youngs.

Can Greg Maddux be a top tier Hall of Famer now? 355-27 career (.610 WP), 3.16 ERA, 35 shutouts, 3,371 Ks against 999 BB in 5,008.1 IP.

4 Cy Youngs, 18 Gold Glove Awards. He's eighth all-time in wins. He never struck out 200 hitters in a season. He did it with control.

Please tell me these guys are top tier.

[basesareempty]

I am from Cleveland. His signiture might not be worth anything but as a pitcher he was an A list HOF. I dont think you can name a better pitcher during that time. He always said they took the greatest four years of my life. I belive that. It is like what would Ted Williams had done with six more years.

I look at it the other way and think what would this country be like if men like Bob Feller and Ted Williams didn't serve in our military.

[Eric72]

I look at it the other way and think what would this country be like if men like Bob Feller and Ted Williams didn't serve in our military.

+1, and much to Feller's credit, he was the first MLB player to enlist after Pearl Harbor.

[David W]

I'm not quite sure how Feller couldn't be considered top tier. He lost almost 4seasons to military service. If you average out what he did right before and after WW2 his numbers would be around 350 wins, about 3700 Ks, his overall ERA would have been closer to 3.00 (or less) had he not missed any time to serve our country. If that aint top tier then I don't know what is.

Devil's advocate question for those who give Feller 300+ wins due to loss of time while in the military.

Could you not argue he may have blown his arm out, pitching all those innings and they were long innings, lots of walks and strikeouts in there, and that the 4 years off saved his career from gross overuse?

But as for impact on the game, he was a huge legend at the time, throwing 100 mph, 17 years old and in the majors, strikeout titles and all, etc... and had a great career. He was always disappointed he never won a game in the 48 World Series.

[Vintageclout]

FYI, my strong opinion is that Tom Seaver, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and Pedro Martinez are ALL superior pitchers to Bob Feller and their statistics support that notion. You might also want to make an argument for Roger Clemens if it was truly determined when he started using performance enhancing drugs. Bill James always stated Tom Seaver may be the greatest post-war pitcher of them all and his incredible 2.62 ERA over his first 15 CONSECUTIVE 15 seasons (1967 - '81) stakes a claim to that notion (2.86 overall with 4,700+ innings pitched). NO pitcher can boast such a low ERA over that consecutive span of time averaging 230 innings pitched per season after 1920....an absolutely amazing statistic for a starting pitcher.

Joe T.

[bn2cardz]

...Mantle was great, but K'd constantly. Held that record til Reggie came along. Can a top tier player really be the guy who struck out more than anyone? Or just about anyone?

If you consider Ruth a top tier player, than yes you would have to consider a guy who struck out more than anyone a top tier player:

Strikeouts
1918 AL 58 (1st)
1919 AL 58 (2nd)
1920 AL 80 (2nd)
1921 AL 81 (2nd)
1922 AL 80 (2nd)
1923 AL 93 (1st)
1924 AL 81 (1st)
1925 AL 68 (2nd)
1926 AL 76 (2nd)
1927 AL 89 (1st)
1928 AL 87 (1st)
1929 AL 60 (4th)
1930 AL 61 (5th)
1932 AL 62 (9th)
1933 AL 90 (2nd)
1934 AL 63 (9th)
Career 1,330 (106th)

As far as Feller, I find myself going back and forth. The main point for yes for me is that he out ranks Christy Mathewson and a single poing behind Cy Young on the Black Ink test. He was simply the best in his era of playing and he very well would have lead more stats if he wasn't in the War as other's proposed, but there is no way to know so we only go off what we know. Even with that though it is enough to show he was just the best of his time.

[Hankphenom]

Again, it comes back to the definition of top tier. Feller: top 5, no, top 15, yes.

[slipk1068]

Again, it comes back to the definition of top tier. Feller: top 5, no, top 15, yes.

+1

Same could be said for Spahn, Carlton, Seaver. Totally depends on how you define top tier. If he comes back from his injury and has a few more Cy Young type years, you could add Kershaw to the list as well.

[Exhibitman]

A number of thoughts:

--I cannot judge a player on "what could have been had he not..."; simply opens too many cans of worms. Satchel Paige wasn't allowed to pitch in the Majors until he was about 41 years old. Martin DiHigo, Cool Papa Bell, Josh Gibson...and so on. Feller lost several years to the war but as is pointed out above he could have wrecked his arm, been killed in a car crash, etc.

--I do not divide HOFers into tiers as finely as others. I only ask myself whether or not I would have voted for him. I'd guesstimate that there are probably 25% of the HOF that I would not have voted to admit, mostly the Veterans' Committee selections from the worst cronyism period. A lot of the admits then were just very good players who were friends with the committee members.

--I'm not a big fan of the logic that runs "Player X is in, Player Z has similar career stats, so Player Z = Player X." There's more to it than that. Joe Morgan and Lou Whitaker may have had similar overall career stats but that run Morgan had from 1972-1977 is one of the great performances of the postwar era no matter how you slice the statistics. I ask whether a player was among the very best and for how long.

--When I think about pitchers I tend to focus even more on dominance than consistency/longevity than I do for a position player. Different duties and way different risks. Don Drysdale's WAR for pitchers is 52nd, Koufax is 82nd. If you have the World Series on the line, who would you start? I'd probably vote yes for Dizzy Dean for the Hall because he had that run of 6 dominant years where he was one of the three best pitchers in the game.

--All of which leads me to select the tippy top pitchers as a combination of dominance and consistency/longevity. I voted "yes" for Feller because he was pretty much the best pitcher in the game for seven years [38-41, 46-48]. The balance of his career was learning the ropes followed by being varying degrees of dangerous but not dominant. A run like that means a heck of a lot more to me than padding stats with mediocre seasons at the end.