Authenticators changing their minds

[Runscott]

Does anyone know of an example where either JSA or PSA retracted their opinion about an autograph being good, for reasons other than it being proven to them that the item could not physically have been signed by the person?;e.g-the item was produced in 1955 and the supposed signer died in 1950.

[tazdmb]

Closest I got is when I bought a Larry MacPhail autogrpah authenticated as Lee MacPhail. Turns out the autograph was a stamp.

[jhs5120]

I purchased a Ted Williams signed index card in a lot with a PSA/DNA auction LOA. I sent in the Williams to get slabbed (along with a few other items from the lot) and the Williams came back Questionable Authenticity. I called them up and they confirmed the signature was bad and refunded me for the Williams portion of the lot I purchased.

The other items came back authentic.

[Big Dave]

There were a bunch of autographs that JSA had certed and then these were resubmitted later with Morales certs. JSA failed every one of these that they had previously certed as authentic. I'm sure these would be easy to find via a google search. I know of others, but don't have any online info as some of these.were on ebay, and others I didn't tag.

[Runscott]

There were a bunch of autographs that JSA had certed and then these were resubmitted later with Morales certs. JSA failed every one of these that they had previously certed as authentic. I'm sure these would be easy to find via a google search. I know of others, but don't have any online info as some of these.were on ebay, and others I didn't tag.

Interesting, so there's some gamesmanship involved.

[Runscott]

I purchased a Ted Williams signed index card in a lot with a PSA/DNA auction LOA. I sent in the Williams to get slabbed (along with a few other items from the lot) and the Williams came back Questionable Authenticity. I called them up and they confirmed the signature was bad and refunded me for the Williams portion of the lot I purchased.

The other items came back authentic.

Yes, this is common and understandable. I'll add some clarification, since I hadn't thought about large lots or pre-certs when I posed the question: I'm really thinking about single items like baseballs (individual or multi-signed) and single-signed times - items where there is no question that the authenticator would have had to have certified all signatures and noted any fakes.

I am strongly considering throwing away all of my JSA and PSA certificates - it would be hypocritical to keep them and none of my buyers have ever requested them.

[T206Collector]

Here's one I've been meaning to raise on here. In August 20-21, 2004, Hunt Auctions sold this signed T206 card back of Miller Huggins in Lot #730. That auction can still be seen here:

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=19&lot_num=730&lot_qual=

This signature came with an LOA from PSA-DNA that referenced Lot #730 in Hunt's August 20-21, 2004 auction. The LOA included the original signature of James Spence.

Concerned about the authenticity of this item, I recently submitted the card to James Spence for his review. For whatever reason, Spence would not authenticate the item this time based on his concerns over the item's authenticity. I got a letter from JSA, which was also signed by James Spence; however, which now asserted that his considered opinion is that "the submitted item is not, in fact, an authentic example," and the reasons for that opinion.

Neither Hunt nor Spence were interested in making this right, which to me meant I was out about $400. Hunt cited the time lapse as well as that I was not the original purchaser. Spence said it was on PSA/DNA, not him.

The good news is that PSA bought it back from me with a large amount of grading vouchers, which I was comfortable with under the circumstances. Frankly, I was more than pleasantly surprised with PSA's efforts to appease me, even though this was 10 years ago and dealt with a former authenticator of theirs. I gained a lot of respect for them through this process.

The take away for me was the auction house LOAs aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

P.au1 M1f5ud

[jimq]

I bought a Roberto Clemente autographed 5x7 photo on ebay from a good seller with a PSA authentication. It was a loose photo so I sent it to PSA to have it holdered to protect it.

PSA rejected it, and when I spoke with Joe he told me that they had learned new information regarding Clemente signatures and that they could no longer stand behind the autograph.

PSA sent me a check for the full amount I had paid for the photo ($1500) but sadly it made me reluctant to buy another one.

[JimStinson]

Yes, this is common and understandable. I'll add some clarification, since I hadn't thought about large lots or pre-certs when I posed the question: I'm really thinking about single items like baseballs (individual or multi-signed) and single-signed times - items where there is no question that the authenticator would have had to have certified all signatures and noted any fakes.

I am strongly considering throwing away all of my JSA and PSA certificates - it would be hypocritical to keep them and none of my buyers have ever requested them.

ALWAYS keep the bill of sale, As a long time buyer of vintage autographs I never ask to see a "letter of opinion". But will often ask to see a bill of sale. Not to see what the item sold for but to track provenance. Even in cases where the seller is long ago deceased. A bill of sale from a reputable dealer is a solid resource.
__________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs For Sale on my web site
stinsonsports.com

[Runscott]

That's a good idea, Jim. I also generally save the auction catalog page or create a pdf file from the online version.

Glad to hear that PSA was willing to change their minds about the Clemente, based on learning more.

[theshleps]

There was a John McGraw signed T206 I wanted to buy. I liked the signature. They (forget if PSA or JSA) said they couldn't tell if it was OK. I passed on purchasing. Another board member acquired it and sent it to the same place along with many other items- so their was a large amount of $ involved. They passed and slabbed it that time.

[Klrdds]

I save every invoice as well as any photos or scans or photocopies or auction listings of the items I buy. I also save photocopies/scans of items that I get before I buy the item to prove that it is the item I bought, and staple it to the invoice. This is great for insurance companies, as well as to give a "provenance " , however limited, to the item.

[shelly]

Spence and PSA will never change there mind .
Have you ever seen an auction house take down and item and say the authenticator is wrong. It would open a can of worms that would never stop.:mad: