Very cool history behind White Sox at Royal Gorge 1910

[GregMitch34]

I was happy to purchase today this oversized postcard that I've eyed for some time, for the cool setting and hand-tinting, even before I looked into the back story. It has been variously set in 1909, 1910 and 1911, but it's definitely the White Sox and they are at Royal Gorge in Colorado with something called the "Hanging Bridge" behind them. But what else?

Well, it seems (from my research) that the photo was taken, in B & W, by a well-known railroad photog named Beam on Feb. 27, 1910. The Sox were on their way to spring training--in San Francisco. Here's the original caption for the photo from the archives: "Men, women, children, and the Chicago White Sox pose by a Denver and Rio Grande passenger car and the Arkansas River at Hanging Bridge, in the Royal Gorge, Fremont County, Colorado. Baseball team owner Charles A. Comiskey wears a fedora hat." He's the tall guy in rear center, instantly recognizable when you know where to look (and from Cracker Jack photo).

The site is very famous as part of the long and bloody railroad war between two companies starting around 1880, where both sides hired gunslingers, including Bat Masterson and Doc Holliday. The Hanging Bridge, I thought, might have been used for...hangings...but instead it was a unique feat of engineering that could actually carry trains across the river at a place where there was no room for tracks on one side.

There's another quite different photo from the same day, also with the Sox, a little closer to the bridge, that I have not seen on postcards. The train itself is interesting, for railroad buffs.

Has anyone ever IDed the players in the photo, such as Ed Walsh, Doc White, Chick Gandil and others? Can you?
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137288&stc=1&d=1394830361

[pariah1107]

Awesome photo with a great history. As a collector that's the ultimate two-fer. :D

[brianp-beme]

I only really collect vintage cards, but this postcard is just incredible, better than any card. I love how some of the players are just casually hanging on to the railing out over the gorge. Thanks Greg for sharing it and its story.

Brian

[Bpm0014]

Why did they travel in their uniforms back in the day??

[buymycards]

I have been to the Royal Gorge several times. It is a beautiful spot just outside of Canon City, Co. (pronounced Canyon but I don't know how to put the little squiggly thing over the o.

Nice pick up!

[Wildfireschulte]

I've owned a copy of the smaller (7421) version of this postcard for a long time and always understood that Gandil is in the red sweater on far left and Duffy is in the green sweater far right.

[GregMitch34]

I sort see a semi-green on but don't see the red sweater... so where's Walsh and Cicotte?

[Wildfireschulte]

Sorry - I was referring to my smaller version postcard of the same seen. Interesting that standard postcard size has more color added. I have been told Gandil is far left in Red and Duffy far right in green. No Cicotte on team yet.

[Dto7]

Here you can see all three photos from that day (http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/search/searchterm/Chicago%20White%20Sox%20(Baseball%20team)--1910-1920./mode/exact)

[John V]

Thanks Don. ID-ing the players should be easy with those photos. Here are enlargements of red sweater, green sweater & Comiskey.

[CamaroCPA]

I have been to the Royal Gorge several times. It is a beautiful spot just outside of Canon City, Co. (pronounced Canyon but I don't know how to put the little squiggly thing over the o.

Nice pick up!

I've been there a handful of times myself. It definitely is gorgeous. And that bridge is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up there now!

[slipk1068]

Awesome postcard. Great story. Thanks for sharing.

[GregMitch34]

Another photo of 1910 Sox to help ID players...

http://www.goodwinandco.com/ItemImages/000016/16587a_lg.jpeg

[GregMitch34]

Red sweater guy on left looks nothing like Gandil to me. However, the guy at rear right with white cap sure looks like him--face, and ears that stick out a bit, and he looks young (which fits Gandil in 1910). Or he could be guy in center in white cap and dark shirt, angular face.

In fact, I would say red sweater guy might be Ed Walsh, comparing photos. Don't see anyone else who looks like Ed.

[bmarlowe1]

The faces can be seen on the Denver library site. The red sweater guy is not Walsh. The guy far right in the back holding the flag is not Gandil - he is Ed Walsh.

[GregMitch34]

Yeah, you may be right on Walsh with flag.

I love Walsh's stats for 1910: 18-20, 1.27 era. Team finished under .500. The true "hitless wonders."

Anyone spot Doc Casey.

[bmarlowe1]

Using the Denver library image I can see (in no particular order):

Ed Walsh, Billy Sullivan, Shano Collins, Bruno Block, Billy Purtell, Freddy Parent, Rollie Zeider, Ed Hahn, Frank Smith, Hugh Duffy, Lena Blackburn, Jesse Tannehill, and Frank Lange. I can probably pick out a few more. Gandil is not there.

BTW, the guy in the red sweater (far left) is Warren Gill.

If you want me to connect names to faces, please post in somewhat higher res with numbers near each face.

[Dto7]

Freddy Parent

Lene Blackburne

Lee Tannehill

[Greenmonster]

This is a 7X9" Mailing Card issued by the railroad featuring the team passing through the gorge.

[ooo-ribay]

Greg's, Jim's and K Farrell's cards are all things of beauty. I love this kind of sleuthing even if it is a team/era I don't collect.

[bmarlowe1]

Doc Casey is not there.

Below L to R:
Billy Purtell, Billy Sullivan

[bmarlowe1]

Ed Walsh in the back with the fllag, below him below L to R in uniform:

Shano Collins, Bruno Block, Hugh Duffy, Fred Payne, Rollie Zeider, probably Bobby Messenger

[bmarlowe1]

Below L to R in uniform:
Warren Gill, ?, Frank Smith, Frank Lange, Cuke Barrows, ? (holding baby)

[bmarlowe1]

Ed Hahn

I of course agree with Don on Tannehill, Blackburne, and Parent. The rest I don't know as yet.

[GregMitch34]

Thanks for all the great detective work. Why would Casey (a star)not be there? I suppose Gandil, just starting out, was in some kind of minor league camp, if indeed he is not in picture.

[Dto7]

Thanks for all the great detective work. Why would Casey (a star)not be there? I suppose Gandil, just starting out, was in some kind of minor league camp, if indeed he is not in picture.

Do you mean Doc White?

[bmarlowe1]

Below L to R in uniform:
Warren Gill, ?, Frank Smith, Frank Lange, Cuke Barrows, ? (holding baby)

The guy holding the baby is Irv Young.

As for Doc Casey, you must mean Doc White. He is not present unless he is hiding behind someone.

[Dto7]

I think the reason Chick Gandil isn't there is because he lived in California and was waiting for the team to get there.

[GregMitch34]

Yes, meant Doc White, of course. Maybe he was operating on someone in town.

[GregMitch34]

Doc White is in the second photo, just to right of the train engine, in my opinion.

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/16242/rec/1

[bmarlowe1]

If you mean him, I would agree.

[GregMitch34]

Not the guy directly in front of him?

[bmarlowe1]

No Greg. The guy I indicated (below left) is Doc White.

[bmarlowe1]

The guy you indicated, below left, is not Doc White.

[Dto7]

Willis Cole

[Dto7]

This could be Fred Olmstead

[Dto7]

Sunday March 6, 1910 The San Francisco Call newspaper

[GregMitch34]

Wow, fantastic work. So Ban Johnson is probably in photo somewhere. Also, it seems Gandil should be in the picture--but no mention of Doc White. Of course, that list could be wrong. Quite a train trip--via Portland detour....

[GregMitch34]

If folks have missed start of thread, I kicked it off with research on this over-sized postcard, which I just obtained, but here it is in bigger close-up:

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137515&stc=1&d=1394979328

[Dto7]

Harry Suter

[GregMitch34]

You sure that's not Ted Cruz?

[bmarlowe1]

Wow, fantastic work. So Ban Johnson is probably in photo somewhere. Also, it seems Gandil should be in the picture--but no mention of Doc White. Of course, that list could be wrong. Quite a train trip--via Portland detour....

No - neither Ban Johnson nor Gandil are in the photo.

Newspaper lists like that are always a help, but frequently have some inaccuracies. Also - people can be on the train but not in the photo.

[nolemmings]

Looks like Freddie Parent front row third from right seated, next to Lee Tannehill with child.

[bmarlowe1]

Looks like Freddie Parent front row third from right seated, next to Lee Tannehill with child.

Already identified in posts 17 & 18 above.

[nolemmings]

oops

Is that Irv Young holding the baby?

[GregMitch34]

Yes on Irv, also already IDed.

[nolemmings]

Maybe someone could focus in and show us pics of the guys that remain unidentified?

[bmarlowe1]

Maybe someone could focus in and show us pics of the guys that remain unidentified?

Todd - it isn't that complicated, for the identified faces why don't you just read the thread? You can see the full photo at the Denver Library site (link provide by dto7 - you can find that also in this thread). The unknowns are the guy right of Parent, the guy above Tannehill, the obscured player just left and above Collins, the player right of Suter, and the player right of Gill.

[nolemmings]

You're right, it isn't that complicated. So you guys can surely figure it out.

[bmarlowe1]

You're right, it isn't that complicated. So you guys can surely figure it out.

We pretty much have. Taking the time to read the thread would indicate that. 21 out of 26 in a spring photo that includes a number of very obscure faces that did not make the roster is quite good I think.

[Dto7]

Not Johnny Beall

[bmarlowe1]

I don't think the guy is Beall.

[Dto7]

I don't think the guy is Beall.

Thanks Mark

[brianp-beme]

I think the reason Chick Gandil isn't there is because he lived in California and was waiting for the team to get there.

Maybe he was somewhere back inside the train while the photo was taken, already conspiring to fix the 1919 World Series, nine years in advance.

Great work guys!

Brian

[Dto7]

a few players that played for the Sox out west.

Hunky Shaw-3B, Ray Ryan-C, Victor Holm-P, John Schmirler-P and Yip Owens-C.

[Dto7]

Here's a photo of John Schmirler 1909 Duluth White Sox. Looks like the player to the right of Warren Gill in post #23.

[Section103]

As a Coloradoan, I am beyond impressed with that Royal Gorge PC.

[Tom S.]

On the first of the three images from the Denver Library link (not the image used for the postcard), could the 2nd guy standing on the top of the locomotive to the left of the smokestack be Gandil?

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/toppsopcfan/45215_c46_gandil_sgc_zps0c203fc4.jpghttp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/toppsopcfan/untitled_zpsba92069c.png

And it appears the guy sitting next to the smokestack is Johnny Beall...

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/toppsopcfan/johnny20beall201913_zps800ca894.jpg

[GregMitch34]

But where's John Cusack?

[bmarlowe1]

I also think the guy seated left of the smokestack is Beall, and that is Gill right of the smokestack.

Too blurry for me to tell much about Gandil.

As for Schmirler - could be.

[Dto7]

Could be Chet Waite. Waite 1908 Springfield Ponies

[pbspelly]

Could be Chet Waite. Waite 1908 Springfield Ponies

If it's not Chet Waite, the two were clearly separated at birth.

[bmarlowe1]

If it's not Chet Waite, the two were clearly separated at birth.

Agreed - great find!

[Dto7]

Picture of Ray Ryan who was in the lineup in California (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1240216)

[bmarlowe1]

Here's a photo of John Schmirler 1909 Duluth White Sox. Looks like the player to the right of Warren Gill in post #23.


Found a better version of the Schmirler exemplar. Sure looks good. Any record of him being present?

[Dto7]

Found a better version of the Schmirler exemplar. Sure looks good. Any record of him being present?

It has his last name in some games as pitching.

[Dto7]

Some of the White Sox players that were in Los Angeles March 7, 1910. Not a very good picture but does show some of the players.

[Dto7]

Hugh Fullerton, best known for uncovering the Black Sox scandal.

[GregMitch34]

I just won another photo taken that day in an auction, apparently (from writing on back) from files of railroad company.
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138079&stc=1&d=1395288915

[Dto7]

I just won the second photo taken that day in an auction, from files of railroad company.
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138079&stc=1&d=1395288915

It's another version of the second photo...a few of the people have moved around in this photo. Nice catch.

[GregMitch34]

Right, so now we know there were THREE photos--all black and white, one of them tinted for postcards.... Maybe the third photo I just posted yields more clues to players...

[Dto7]

I count 32 players between Team #1 and Team #2

[Dto7]

Could be Walter Carlisle who was invited to go on the train and was going to play for the Vernon Tigers of the Pacific Coast League.

[Dto7]

Could be Frank Miller another west coast player invited to ride the train to California. Miller going to play for the San Francisco Seals.

[pbspelly]

Not sure about Miller, but if that isn't Carlisle, we've got another long-lost twin case for 20/20 and ancestry.com to do a special on. Look at the mouth and chin.

[bmarlowe1]

Agree. I don't think that's Miller, but Carlisle for sure.

[Dto7]

Team 1 in black uniforms and team 2 in white uniforms the same in the Denver library photos. might help with the ID's of the last players.

[Dto7]

I believe that my post #35 is not Willis Cole but is Frank Lange.

[bmarlowe1]

Post 23 has the right guy (below right) for Frank Lange:

[Dto7]

Post 23 has the right guy (below right) for Frank Lange:
Oops, forgot about that one.

The 3 main ones were looking for.

[bmarlowe1]

I also think it's safe to say that the guy originally IDed as Willis Cole in #35 (below left) was correctly identified.

[peterb69]

Can anyone identify Cuke Barrows? I believe the initial guess was changed. He did play according to the newspaper article.

[bmarlowe1]

Can anyone identify Cuke Barrows? I believe the initial guess was changed. He did play according to the newspaper article.

It wasn't a guess and it did not change.

[Dto7]

Catcher

[peterb69]

It wasn't a guess and it did not change.

Sorry Mark, I did not read the , in your append ".....Cuke Barrows, ? (holding baby)" and thought you were guessing the player holding baby was Barrows with a ?.

Thanks for pointing him out. I maybe related to him as I have same last name and relatives that did come from the same area in Maine that he lived.

[bmarlowe1]

Sorry Mark, I did not read the , in your append ".....Cuke Barrows, ? (holding baby)" and thought you were guessing the player holding baby was Barrows with a ?.

Thanks for pointing him out. I maybe related to him as I have same last name and relatives that did come from the same area in Maine that he lived.

Peter: no need to apologize to me. My reply to you was kind of abrupt. Anyway, "? (holding baby)" is Irv Young.

Dto7: While that is McMurray with the catchers mitt in the Sox team 1 photo, I don't see him in the Royal Gorge photo.

[Dto7]

Looks like catcher Yip Owens. 2 from Royal Gorge photos. Yip Owens 1905 Red Sox and 1909 White Sox.

[pbspelly]

Yip Owens, Cuke Barrows. Got to love ballplayer names back then

[bmarlowe1]

Yip Owens (major league debut 1905) it is. Note that his Baseball-Reference image is actually a photo of Frank Owen (major league debut 1901) who is also sometimes known as Yip.

[veloce]

Yipe Owens (major league debut 1905) it is. Note that his Baseball-Reference image is actually a photo of Frank Owen (major league debut 1901) who is also sometimes known as Yip.

I think the nickname Yip should only apply to pitcher Frank Owen. As the SABR bioproject quoted below notes, there is a reasonable chance that "Yip" was only attributed to catcher Frank Owens due to confusion between the two players with similar names. I know Yip has persisted for both players for quite some time, but it only makes sense as a nickname for the pitcher from Ypsilanti.

BTW, great work Don and Mark. I wish there were more threads like this.

Quote from http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/e2b171ab :
"Where did the nickname Yip come from? We have been able to find only a couple of references to Yip Owens, both more than five years after he’d finished playing in the majors. It’s entirely possible those were mistakes, confusing him with another man of a similar name, Frank Malcolm Owen, who pitched in the American League starting in 1901 and was a 21-game winner both in 1904 and 1905 for the White Sox. Frank Malcolm Owen came from Ypsilanti, Michigan, and understandably did get the nickname Yip used occasionally in print during his career. When Frank Owens the catcher came along just a few years later, he may have picked up the name when he arrived – or it may simply be a mistake. Such mistakes were made; Owen – the pitcher – was frequently referred to as Owens (with the “s”) in print at the time. And there are times when Owens was referred to as Owen."

"White Sox owner Charles Comiskey had his men travel to California again in the spring of 1910, and Owens contracted tonsillitis in Sacramento. "

[Dto7]

The Player in white could be Ray Ryan.

[Dto7]

Could this be Al Louis Shaw but not to be confused with Al Simpson Shaw.

[bmarlowe1]

Ryan yes.

Shaw no - the easiest thing to see is the ear shape difference between the face in question and the two Shaw images on the right. There are other issues as well.

[bmarlowe1]

Sometimes you can find exactly what you need. Unknown guy from Royal Gorge below left, Al Louis Shaw with Detroit 1900, right. The ears immediately tell the story.

[Dto7]

Would you say that this is the same player.

[bmarlowe1]

Would you say that this is the same player.

For sure.

I'm speculating at this point, but he may be Charlie French. He is a pretty good match to the face labeled as French in the 1910 White Sox team headshots in the 1911 Spalding Guide. Note that the Charlie French photo on Baseball-Reference is someone else - so one of them is wrong.

[Dto7]

Could be French. But I don't have him on any list and his name wasn't in any of the box scores that I saw. White Sox didn't him from the Boston Red Sox until May 19, 1910.

Charlie French 1909 Red Sox Spring camp.

[bmarlowe1]

Could be French. But I don't have him on any list and his name wasn't in any of the box scores that I saw. White Sox didn't him from the Boston Red Sox until May 19, 1910.

Charlie French 1909 Red Sox Spring camp.

Then it's not likely French. Found his c46 card - just someone who looks somewhat similar.

[Dto7]

Here's another photo of that unknown player in the second Royal Gorge photo. The player in white top left.

[Dto7]

According to The Chicago Examiner players waiting on the west coast for the Comiskey train.

The Players were Bill Burns, Chick Gandil, Victor Holm, Hugh McMurray, Charlie Mullen, Jim Scott, and Shaw.

[Dto7]

I think this is Johnny Beall

[Dto7]

The unknown player is catcher Art Kruger who played pro baseball for one year for the 1910 Lincoln Railsplitters of the Western League. Not to be confused with Arthur Theodore Kruger who played in the majors 1907-1915.

[bmarlowe1]

Awesome Don. It's amazing that the newspaper item chose to feature a close-up of Kruger.

I have no doubt this guy is Beall.

[Dto7]

Awesome Don. It's amazing that the newspaper item chose to feature a close-up of Kruger.

I have no doubt this guy is Beall.

Thanks, Mark. I think I passed over that photo twice when looking for names of players .

[Dto7]

The Chicago White Sox baseball team heading to the west coast for Spring training on the Denver & Rio Grande through the Royal Gorge.

ID of the players in uniform by Mark Fimoff (bmarlowe) and Don Stokes (Dto7).

1. Ray Ryan 2. Billy Purtell 3. Billy Sullivan 4. Willis Cole 5. Fred Olmstead 6. Cuke Barrows 7. Warren Gill 8. John Schmirler 9. Frank Lange

10. Frank Smith 11. Irv Young 12. Lena Blackburne 13. Yip Owens 14. Harry Suter 15. Chet Waite 16. Ed Hahn 17. Lee Tannehill

18. Freddy Parent 19. Art Kruger(minor leaguer) 20. Shano Collins 21. Bruno Block 22. Hugh Duffy 23. Fred Payne 24. Rollie Zeider

25. Bobby Messenger 26. Johnny Beall 27. Ed Walsh

[GregMitch34]

You guys are amazing (and I say this as someone who has written a half-dozen history books for major publishers). Happy I got this thread started. And to think I bought that postcard mainly for the "art" of it.

[brianp-beme]

They are the dynamic duo...I printed off this group shot with all the players in uniform identified to enhance the postcard (thanks Seablaster) that I just picked up. Thanks for the non-stop effort! And thanks again Greg for bringing it to our attention...look how hard you made those guys work.

Brian

[pbspelly]

Ok. Now identify the women and children.

[Dto7]

Ok. Now identify the women and children.

Mary Comiskey and son Louis, Mrs. Robert McRoy and son, Mrs. Bernoudy and her two children, Mrs. Irv Young and child, Mrs. G. Harris White, Mrs. George Rice, Mrs. T. J. Kelley, Mrs. Frank Smith and Mrs. R. N. Henshaw.