T206 Stovall and Turner: Charcoal Gray v. Brown Shirt

[sreader3]

T206 color variations seems to be a hot board topic at the moment.

Here is my contribution.

Two Cleveland Naps 150/350 subjects, Stovall (Portrait) and Turner, are available with either a charcoal gray shirt or a brown shirt. The brown shirt version is, I believe, the result of the blue ink pass having not been added on top of the brown ink layer to create the charcoal gray appearance. The difference in shirt color can be fairly subtle--but there is a difference.

This would perhaps be only nominally interesting if the charcoal gray and brown shirt versions were distributed in similar numbers with all backs, or if there were only one or two stray copies of the brown shirt version floating around.

But there is method to the madness.

Of the hundreds of copies I have studied, all copies of Stovall and Turner with the 150 obverse have the charcoal gray shirt. A slight majority of copies with the Piedmont 350 and Sweet Caporal 350 back are also of the charcoal gray ilk.

That reduces the ranks of the “brown shirted” Stovalls and Turners to a small but substantial minority of Piedmont and Sweet Cap 350 copies, plus ALL Sovereign 350 copies. (I cannot speak definitively yet to EPDG or Old Mill).

Was the transition from a charcoal gray shirt to a brown one made consciously by ALC? It seems unlikely. But I have not seen ANY copies of the other Cleveland 150/350 portraits [e.g. Joss (Portrait), Lajoie (Portrait)] who sport brown shirts. Moreover, the 350-only Naps portraits (e.g. Perring) seem to have a lighter gray shirt (not brown).

If we assume that the ALC just “ran out” of blue ink near the end of the 150/350 print run, the distribution of Stovalls and Turners with brown shirts would be consistent with Sovereign 350 being printed last, overlapping with tail-end production of Piedmont 350 and Sweet Cap 350. But why then are there no Joss or Lajoie Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350 or Sovereign 350 portraits with brown shirts (at least that I have seen)?

I would welcome a show-and-tell of board members' Stovalls and Turners mentioning what back is on the reverse.

Below are my copies of Stovall (Brown), Stovall (Gray) and Turner (Brown). I don't have a copy of Turner (Gray). My Stovall (Gray) is perhaps not the best example--there are a lot of copies out there exhibiting a much darker gray shirt.

Scot

[teetwoohsix]

Interesting observation! I had never noticed this. Just for the thread purposes, here's my Stovall portrait SC 150.

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

T206 color variations seems to be a hot board topic at the moment.

Here is my contribution.

Two Cleveland Naps 150/350 subjects, Stovall (Portrait) and Turner, are available with either a charcoal gray shirt or a brown shirt. The brown shirt version is, I believe, the result of the blue ink pass having not been added on top of the brown ink layer to create the charcoal gray appearance. The difference in shirt color can be fairly subtle--but there is a difference.

That reduces the ranks of the “brown shirted” Stovalls and Turners to a small but substantial minority of Piedmont and Sweet Cap 350 copies, plus ALL Sovereign 350 copies. (I cannot speak definitively yet to EPDG or Old Mill).

If we assume that the ALC just “ran out” of blue ink near the end of the 150/350 print run, the distribution of Stovalls and Turners with brown shirts would be consistent with Sovereign 350 being printed last, overlapping with tail-end production of Piedmont 350 and Sweet Cap 350.

Scot


My four T206's of these guys are all “gray shirted”. I've looked for the "brown shirted" versions, but have not yet seen any.

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206StovallTurner50x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206StovallTurner50xb.jpg


Scot, for whatever this is worth, American Litho printed their 1st series (155 subjects) with light (or pale) BLUE ink. There is one exception to this pattern.....
Waddell (portrait) which is printed with a deep BLUE ink.

The 350 series and the 460 series subjects were printed with either a deep BLUE or pale BLUE ink. I am not sure what this tells us (or how it factors into your
premise); however, I find this difference in how ALC applied BLUE ink in the various series quite interesting.



TED Z

[steve B]

Another point to these is that the lighter ones also show more bright red highlighting in the face. That red crosses over partway between the lighter uniform and darker uniform.
An example of one that's partway between the two
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T206-George-Stovall-Portrait-G-60472-/310884776245?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item48622d3935

Most of the T206s I've looked closely at have both light and dark blue. Even the very light uniforms appear to have at least the light blue. The two Turners I see on Ebay both Sovereigns also have a bit of light blue at the bottom of the uniform. And the Stovalls all seem to have a light blue bottom button for all the uniform colors.

Cards like these are what makes me think the card images were reworked between series, especially between 150 and 350. And possibly were different between brands as well.

The Conroy hat stripes that Scot posted about in the past are one example that's clearly different between 150 and 350, and within the 350's there's stuff like Dygert having red or not on the lips. A very common "missing red" that was likely deliberate and gets little attention of any kind. Criger also comes with different color uniforms- gray or reddish brown.

Steve B

[GoldenAge50s]

My Turner 150 is definitely of the gray.

Coincidentally, I have a Criger 150 up for auction on the BST right now--what color would you call it? Uniform looks gray but the collar looks reddish-brown.

[sreader3]

Thanks for the responses and observations.

Clayton nice Stovall.

Ted all of your Stovalls and Turners are 150s so they were destined to have char gray shirts. Thanks for posting a Turner (Gray). The contrast with my Turner (Brown) is stark.

Steve I hadn't thought about light v dark blue. Do you think the charcoal gray shirts on Stovall and Turner 150s are a product of brown ink with dark blue ink overlay (with light blue being a seperate pass)?

Fred I'm not sure what color shirt your Criger has. Light gray?

If anyone can find a Joss or Lajoie or Perring portrait with brown shirt I would love to see it!

[steve B]

The darker uniforms on Stovall and Turner could be dark blue over the gray, or could be a darker gray layer, or a more extensive use of the light blue. I don't have one of either to look at really closely.
I use a 40X magnifier, or scan at 8-1200 dpi. At that level it's easier to see each layer. Especially if the registration isn't perfect.

And as far as I can tell not every card got every color. Some are only the basic six, some have eight and maybe as many as 10.

Many - maybe all the regular cards - can be found in three versions, with slight differences.

Freds Criger I think is the gray version.

Steve B

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks Scot!

Just adding a Criger since it was brought up, for comparison purposes:

Sincerely, Clayton

[t206blogcom]

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/T206-Turner-Piedmont-150.jpg
http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/t206-Stovall-Sovereign-350.jpg
http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/t206-Criger-port-Sweet-Caporal-150.jpg

[Jantz]

Hi Scot

Here are a few more for you. These are cards that I own.

Stovall (port.)

Sweet Caporal 150/30 - Gray
Piedmont 150 - Gray
Sovereign 150 - Gray
Piedmont 350 - Brown

Turner

Piedmont 150 - Gray

I have two more Turners and they look similar to the Turner that you posted where his jersey looks more brown at the shoulders and has areas of blue ink added near the bottom of his image. The backs on those two are.

Piedmont 150
Piedmont 350

I would also like to add that I bought these two Turners for a reason. They both have a crop line in the upper left corner on the obverse. These are the first examples I've seen where a crop line crosses over into another series.

If you need scans, just let me know and I'll post them up.


Jantz

[sreader3]

Thanks Jason and Jantz.

Jantz--Would like to see a scan of your "brownish" Turner 150 if possible. I was under the impression that all Stovall and Turner 150s are gray.

[Leon]

I don't personally drill down to too much micro-minutia in very many sets but it is nice to see, hear and analyze. Since many of us collect our cards based on aesthetics it is fun to ponder how they got that way. Good info, guys. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[wonkaticket]

Leon, I agree its neat as you collect a good amount of something the little things you begin to pick up on in terms of how one card design can be so different from others.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/websize/005.jpg

Cheers,

John

[sreader3]

Leon,
Thanks for your words of support [or at least tolerance :)] for what is freely acknowledged as T206 minutia.

John,
Cool Reulbach No Glove "Off White Shirt/Cap"!

Scot

[Jantz]

Hi Scot

Here are the scans of my Stovalls and Turners. After lining them up side by side on my computer desk, my Turners do appear more gray, but I'll let you decide. You've probably looked at more of them than I have.

Sorry for the delay. It slipped my mind about posting them.

Photo 1

Stovall Sov 150 Turner PD 350 - PD 150 - PD 150

Photo 2

Stovall PD 350 - PD 150 - SC 150

Jantz

[sreader3]

Hey Jantz,

I just checked this thread after a long time away. Thanks for your response and many scans. They all look charcoal gray to me, except the P350 Stovall which looks like a tweener.

Scot

[atx840]

Neat thread. Interesting to see the differences in the printing processes, here' a few missing the blue/gray uniform ink layer.

http://i.imgur.com/DjJuJXF.jpg

[sreader3]

Chris,

Very cool scans--thanks for sharing.

Supportive I think of the theory that the Stovall and Turner Brown Shirts are due to a lack of blue ink.

Scot