Ethical issues selling items you don't think are authentic

[djson1]

Hey, just wanted to get feedback from the collecting community. What if you have autographed items (mainly photos) that you feel are not authentic and you disclose them as such on ebay. Do you think it's still acceptable to try and sell them on ebay as long you state so?

The reason why I post this, is because I'm sure there are items that "experts" have deemed a forgery, but could have been the real deal (ie- just a bad, messy signature from the real guy). I have some items, which are definitely not exemplar, but there could be a small chance they are real. But as long as I state in the descriptions that they are not likely authentic, I'm wondering if people might still think it's ok to put them up on ebay.

I recently bought a signed photo of an actor from a dealer who said he thought the signature was a secretarial based solely on internet samples he researched. But I bought it because I know that actor's signature changed significantly over the course of years and that was an earlier example (plus the photo was an old original).

Any thoughts?

[Republicaninmass]

If you are questioning the morality of it, you already know the answer.


I learned that from these boards

[djson1]

I don't know if morality would come into play unless you are positive the items are forged. But we all have items which might be authentic but they just aren't exemplar. And, if you state so in the listing, is there still a morality issue? You're basically just letting the buyer make the ultimate decision. Like I stated, I recently bought something even though the seller thought it was secretarial, but I was pretty sure it was authentic.

[theshleps]

I personally rip them up but if you boldly stated you think there is a good chance it isn't real and even put it in the title I guess it is OK. But is it gets hidden within the description and people could easily miss it- then it would be wrong.
I bought a Ruth that looked good but when I got it was an obvious photocopy. The description made it sould like it could be a copy but downplayed it so it sounded like it wasn't. I had to complain to ebay and then made the guy refund the $ but it was a hassle.
If you state it is probably fake you will get very few bids so might as well trash it

[ooo-ribay]

Caveat Emptor :D

[glchen]

I don't think you should do it since the evidence strongly points to the item not being authentic. However, if you think there is still a reasonably good chance it may be genuine, then I think you must offer the buyer a very generous return policy, like a lifetime, no questions asked, return policy. Therefore, if the customer ever decides in the future to have their own experts that they trust review the item and decide they don't like it, they can return it whenever they want, even years into the future.

[Leon]

I don't think you should do it since the evidence strongly points to the item not being authentic. However, if you think there is still a reasonably good chance it may be genuine, then I think you must offer the buyer a very generous return policy, like a lifetime, no questions asked, return policy. Therefore, if the customer ever decides in the future to have their own experts that they trust review the item and decide they don't like it, they can return it whenever they want, even years into the future.

I am of the opinion that if you are 100% honest and transparent then you can sell anything. So if you think there is a 75% chance something isn't good, and clearly state it, then it's ok. As long as someone knows exactly what they are buying then I have no issue selling it. To each their own though.....BTW, I think there would be as many differing opinions on this as there are members on the board. :)

[glchen]

Hi Leon, I know what you're saying, but I guess I've seen too many fake Ruth cards sold on ebay with some kind of description stating that the seller took it to some hobby store where the owner said it was authentic, but others have said it may not be authentic or other cases where the seller said it may or may not be good, and it's up to the buyer to decide. And these sellers always have a no returns accepted policy, and even when you send a message to the seller saying the card is no good, they don't change or take down the listing (and reporting to ebay does not work either).

[Leon]

Hi Leon, I know what you're saying, but I guess I've seen too many fake Ruth cards sold on ebay with some kind of description stating that the seller took it to some hobby store where the owner said it was authentic, but others have said it may not be authentic or other cases where the seller said it may or may not be good, and it's up to the buyer to decide. And these sellers always have a no returns accepted policy, and even when you send a message to the seller saying the card is no good, they don't change or take down the listing (and reporting to ebay does not work either).

Hey Gary
I am right with you on this. But I have seen people say something is FAKE or a REPRINT and then people still bid like no tomorrow. I told myself a long time ago that I won't help protect stupidity. If I say something is fake and someone buys it thinking it's real, more power to them. I don't think I did anything wrong. And since we are on Ruth, here is one that would be hard to authenticate....but has been done to my satisfaction.

[JimStinson]

“So far, about morals, I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.”

― Ernest Hemingway

__________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for sale Daily on my website
stinsonsports.com

[bigtrain]

If I tell my buyer that I don't think it is real or there is a good chance that it is not real, then obviously I am not concerned about him being cheated. I am still concerned about him passing off the item as real and scamming the next guy. I cannot say that once it is out of my hands, I don't care. I don't want to contribute in any way to another collector being scammed. I would rather destroy the item or simply keep it in my collection as a reminder.

[Leon]

“So far, about morals, I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.”

― Ernest Hemingway

__________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for sale Daily on my website
stinsonsports.com

Agree too. And even though I say I wouldn't protect stupidity I probably still couldn't sell something advertised as Fake, to someone who thinks it's real. As your saying goes, I would feel bad :(.

[djson1]

....BTW, I think there would be as many differing opinions on this as there are members on the board. :)

Some good feedback on here. I think Leon was spot on about the differing opinions. :confused: I, myself, have differing opinions on the matter.

[Scott Garner]

If in doubt take the high road.
Chalk up any losses that may occur as a result to be the cost of becoming a better educated collector. We all have been there, BTW. ;)

[jgmp123]

If you are questioning the morality of it, you already know the answer.


I learned that from these boards

+1

[Deertick]

if i tell my buyer that i don't think it is real or there is a good chance that it is not real, then obviously i am not concerned about him being cheated. I am still concerned about him passing off the item as real and scamming the next guy. I cannot say that once it is out of my hands, i don't care. I don't want to contribute in any way to another collector being scammed. I would rather destroy the item or simply keep it in my collection as a reminder.

+1000

[Republicaninmass]

put an honest ad on the BST boards and see the responses

[Runscott]

The few times I have received things that were fake, I sent them back; otherwise I would have to burn them, and I can't afford to do that.

[GrayGhost]

Good thread. I usually only sell signed items that I feel are authentic, given my limited knowledge, and limited value signatures. One time, I had a Charles Schulz signed letter and tho I felt it was real. I had seen many variants and sold it " as is" and for people to do their research and decide.

Mainly, I do stand behind all I sell, or would put a caviat such as above. Its rare tho.

[Michael B]

No opinion on what you should do. That is up to you. Just a thought.

You can teach ethics - the difference between right and wrong. You cannot teach morals- doing what is right versus what is wrong.

Most, if not all law schools have a course on ethics as there is a test that must be passed in some states to be allowed to take the bar exam. Being able to pass the test does not make you moral. Just ask the former president who was disbarred for perjury.

[dgo71]

If I tell my buyer that I don't think it is real or there is a good chance that it is not real, then obviously I am not concerned about him being cheated. I am still concerned about him passing off the item as real and scamming the next guy. I cannot say that once it is out of my hands, I don't care. I don't want to contribute in any way to another collector being scammed. I would rather destroy the item or simply keep it in my collection as a reminder.

+ another 1000. Putting something questionable into the market in my opinion is never a good idea.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

If you are questioning the morality of it, you already know the answer.


I learned that from these boards

I agree 100%.

[Exhibitman]

It really isn't complicated and doesn't involve morality or any other difficult concepts. If you know something is fake and sell it you are committing fraud. Everything else is a matter of opinion. If you do not want to state an opinion for someone to rely on, then have a TPG look at it. If it passes, you can sell the item as a "XYZ Authenticated" item and let the customers decide whether to accept the TPG's warranty. I do that all the time. I do not second-guess the industry-accepted experts when it comes to things I do not know. If the TPG cannot authenticate it [not necessarily because it is forged; sometimes they don't have exemplars] and you don't want to stand behind the signature, sell it without warranty of authenticity and be prepared to take a radically lower price. I picked up this item from one such auction:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/boxingpremiums/websize/Louis_%20Joe%20Autographed%20Caesarqus%20Palace%20 Baccarat%20Flyer.jpg

I understood that if the signature was no good it was my problem, not theirs.

A sloppy, incongruous, or hurried signature is one of the most difficult things to deal with. Below are two items unquestionably signed by the same HOFer. The first Lennox Lewis item came to me courtesy of a friend who got it at an HBO event. Lewis signed at a table sitting down when he had time to do it:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/Lewis%20on%20credential.jpg

This Lewis card is one that I got myself at the Los Angeles presser for the Klitschko fight while the champ was walking from the ring to the podium to have his press conference:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/Lewis_1.jpg

No way will the one I got ever pass muster with an 'expert' or with anyone else, except perhaps an expert I knew personally and who would therefore trust me enough to stand behind the item. That's what makes collecting this stuff so darn difficult. It gets even worse when you deal with an aging athlete, perhaps one who is experiencing a physical decline. Like Muhammad Ali. Look at his signature from the 1960s and then the 2000s and it is like two different people signed.