View Full Version : Were T215 Pirates distributed?
The recent thread on scraps got me wondering: were the T215 Pirate backs that have surfaced recently actually distributed in packs?
The story behind this set is that they were printed in England, then sold to American sailors in the Philippines.That means that to make it back to America they would have been stashed in the personal effects of a sailor for months at a time. We assume that this is why so few have ever surfaced. After all, how many sailors ever made collecting and properly storing these cards a priority while at sea?
And yet, of the few such cards that have surfaced, all seem to be in excellent condition. The 2007 set of 96 cards sold by Legendary were mostly graded Ex or NM. The five sold last year by REA were graded Authentic, but only because they were hand-cut. They presented as Near Mint (see below).
So here's my question: how could these cards all have survived the trip from Manilla to America so well. None of them have creases, stains, or any marks at all. Compare this to T206s. How small a percentage of them are in such condition today; and T206s didn't have to survive an ocean voyage in a sailor's locker.
I believe that it's likely that at least these two groups of T215 Pirates were never distributed. I think that they were obtained in England, whether directly from the manufacturer or not I don't know. Does anyone else have any thoughts on these cards?
133235
133236
atx840
02-14-2014, 01:28 PM
Great topic and card Sean. Are there any lower grade/beat up Pirates out there?
http://i.imgur.com/vDltg8b.jpg
wonkaticket
02-14-2014, 02:42 PM
I’ve had this discussion many times with a few collectors. I don’t think they ever were put into packs or issued to the public. In fact I think the SGC graded examples are also AUTH and because they have seen so few and because of the importance and pressure gave them grades. Add to the fact that at least 80% or more of the examples have originated from the same area/collector and so few have survived. Yet the non-sports versions while some are tough are around and in all degrees of condition.
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/Pirate.jpg
I have yet to see a beat T215 baseball subject has anyone?
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/T215.jpg
Even if there was one beater the swing is the exact opposite the bulk are high grade and very few are rough…I can’t think of many issues where that happens.In the end we’re talking about cards issued overseas to soldiers in fox holes as the story goes etc. Did they all go overseas into battle with card savers?
Just my two cents..not iron clad just my thoughts on the issue.
The large group did originate in England and there are a lot of 30's,40's and 50's in it. Other small groups or singles have came from elsewhere. Most of the ones sold in the last few years were trimmed. Full size and mostly diagonal cuts make up the majority of untrimmed ones.
Wonka, your comment on SGC's grading of the 96 card find makes sense.
As for the collector, are we talking about Sir Edward Wharton Tigar? I know that our cards supposedly originated with him. Has it ever been determined that the 96 card set from 2007 was also originally Sir Edward's?
wonkaticket
02-14-2014, 03:01 PM
Wonka, your comment on SGC's grading of the 96 card find makes sense.
As for the collector, are we talking about Sir Edward Wharton Tigar? I know that our cards supposedly originated with him. Has it ever been determined that the 96 card set from 2007 was also originally Sir Edward's?
Correct the REA cards also came from Tigar to a US collector as I was told...so the bulk of the examples have come from overseas and have come from a few sources...for what that's worth.
P.S. Nice card Scott I always liked that pose.
atx840
02-14-2014, 03:02 PM
I think a few likely were cut at the factory....would someone intentionally cut this (other then Johnny V :D)?
http://i.imgur.com/sSfNB5i.jpg
One thing that makes one wonder if the near set came from Tigar, several of them were uncatalogued at the time of the auction. I believe he was rather prolific in cataloguing with the World Tobacco Index and surely these would have listed these if he had owned them?? His entire collection went to museum in 1995 well ahead of the 2007 auction.
wonkaticket
02-14-2014, 03:56 PM
Scott, Chris perhaps they all were factory cut you guys could be right if so I stand corrected etc.
I still wonder and doubt their distribution like Sean. I’m just amazed at the overall level of quality on the examples I’ve seen even the 50’s look so sharp. If they were issued to the public in any sizeable quantity I wish more folks took care of their cards like they did T215’s Pirate cards.
Also there is an amazing level of uniformity to the image quality, the centering and the look of the cards I’ve seen and I certainly haven’t seen them all. Am I the only one who has noticed just how almost perfect they are? If anything the quality control on T215 Pirates was well above that of T206 and other issues.
Really a fascinating issue of cards, wish I had more of them.
Scott I thought the same thing Tigar was like most cartophilist's and kept pretty good records from what I have been told...so wouldn't the unknown ones be known.....again from hearsay and folks talking over the years far from fact...
Scott and Wonka, thank you for your help. And Chris, thanks, I've never seen a T215 scrap before. :eek:
Exhibitman
02-14-2014, 04:26 PM
I am not sure the Philippines is accurate. The NS ones I've seen are Chinese subject matters and I believe the writing on them is Chinese as well. Here is an interesting web page discussing the distribution:
http://www.jimsburntofferings.com/adschinapirate.html
If it was a P.I. issue, I would expect the language to be English or Tagalog, like these P.I. issues:
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/websize/1938%20American%20Sweets%2037%20Louis.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/websize/1975%20Phillipines%20TEK%20Ali-Frazier%203.jpg
The Asian and African-distributed card sets are an area ripe for further analysis. There were a lot of cards that made their way around the world in the prewar era and how and why some of them got there needs explanation.
1880nonsports
02-14-2014, 04:28 PM
came from Martin Murray's one time partner (?) and not Wharton. At least that's the way I heard about them prior to EWT's demise directly from the English owner some time in the mid 1990's while I was at a show. I am NOT an expert in anything. I will state however that at no time looking into the issue have I ever believed they were placed into packs. Just not credible. BTW I have a Pirates" advertising porcelain clock I'm looking to sell. I obviously have no shame.............
wonkaticket
02-14-2014, 04:44 PM
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/001.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/piratebrn.jpg
Well said as usual Adam. I agree that’s what intrigues me about a lot of these random overseas issues especially the ones with very American themes such as boxing, baseball etc.
Henry you should know you can take me over the coals for sale items without having to resort to shameless plugs. :)
ullmandds
02-14-2014, 05:28 PM
john...is that one of the bigger pirate cards? that's way cool!
barrysloate
02-14-2014, 05:36 PM
I'm going to suggest that the ones that were found never left England and never circulated. The condition throughout is so uniformly sharp that it is virtually impossible they were ever distributed. Probably all the ones that were sent to the soldiers are lost, and only those that never went much farther than the factory could survive in that condition. Like Wonka suggested, soldiers fighting in WW1 weren't keeping their prized baseball cards in card savers. And since all the surviving examples are in the category of one or two known, the ones that are left are an anomaly. Some miracle saved them from destruction.
atx840
02-14-2014, 05:40 PM
I agree. It's possible a few stacks were found at the printing house or snuck home by a printer...doubt they were inserted....maybe like the BSF.
http://i.imgur.com/FY5ZNpu.jpg
ullmandds
02-14-2014, 05:53 PM
some of mine.
some of mine.
t206 and pirates cards, very nice.
ullmandds
02-14-2014, 06:05 PM
:D
wonkaticket
02-14-2014, 06:40 PM
john...is that one of the bigger pirate cards? that's way cool!
Yes just a bit bigger, sort of like the Magnums size.
atx840
02-14-2014, 06:50 PM
Yes just a bit bigger, sort of like the Magnums size.
Arrrrr matey.
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards
02-14-2014, 07:03 PM
Cool stuff. Had never heard of these.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mrvster
02-14-2014, 10:40 PM
arrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhh matie! Some pirate scrappy:D
Nice thread guys. I think the REA auction that had the small group of them had just about the exact correct quantity to wrangle every penny from us. It seems like the supply vs demand curve was dissected perfectly, unfortunately for us collectors, but fortunately for the consignor!!
http://luckeycards.com/pt215piratestreet.jpg
some of mine.
Pete, these are great cards. I've never seen them before.
Since they are not graded, can I assume that they are not included in any Pop Report?
ullmandds
02-15-2014, 01:43 PM
Nope...they are unknown til now!
DixieBaseball
02-16-2014, 06:46 AM
Nope...they are unknown til now!
Pete - Those are awesome! Would love to hear the back story on these unknown treasures... You also mentioned "some of mine"... Please don't leave me hanging... I want to see more if you got em!
I also like the subtle differences on the reverse as well.
Great thread... Argghhhhhh....
ullmandds
02-16-2014, 07:52 AM
April Fools...as Leon pointed out...they are t206's...the pirate backs are from oriental character pirate cards...of which I have a bunch!!!!
Just messin' with some of you! Sorry!!!!!:p
wolf441
02-16-2014, 08:12 AM
Maybe a dumb question, but has anyone done research/been to the Philippines in search of these cards? It's been mentioned in the thread that for the cards to have survived, they would have had to make it back to the US in a soldiers footlocker, etc..., but wouldn't soldiers regularly trade goods like cigarettes and chocolate bars with locals for other goods that they needed/wanted? If that was the case, most of the cards would have likely been discarded as pictures of US baseball players would not have meant anything to Filipinos. But perhaps some of the cards may have been saved and are still in the country. My dad was stationed in Manila during WWII, but I never really asked him about the people or country while he was alive.
April Fools...as Leon pointed out...they are t206's...the pirate backs are from oriental character pirate cards...of which I have a bunch!!!!
Just messin' with some of you! Sorry!!!!!:p
They could have passed for T215s. But the creases on the fronts and "backs" didn't line match.
Also, Leon gave it away. :D
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards
02-16-2014, 12:23 PM
They could have passed for T215s. But the creases on the fronts and "backs" didn't line match.
I noticed that too. ;)
ctownboy
02-16-2014, 02:41 PM
Steve,
Good idea but, in my opionion, probably wouldn't find very many cards, if any.
My reasons why;
1) If the cards were printed in England and given to US soldiers who went to the Philippines and then the cards were left there you have to wonder how well known baseball was in the Philippines 100 years ago. Even if well known, you have to wonder how many people would have actively collected the cards there.
2) Even if there were some people who collected the cards, after 100 years in a place that is hot, humid and prone to typhoons and floods, how many of the limited supply of cards would remain?
Think about Coupon cigarette cards here in the US. Many, if not most, were printed here in the US and distributed around the Louisiana area. Now think about how many of those that remain.
It is probable that many multiples of those were printed, compared to Pirate cigarettes, and distributed here, where baseball was well known, popular and the cards were collected. Yet because of the humidity and the weather, Coupon cards are harder to find than T206's.
Any way, just my thoughts, I could be very wrong. There could be a guy in the Philippines who has thousands of Pirate cigarette baseball cards squirreled away.....
David
jerseygary
02-17-2014, 06:14 AM
Baseball caught on pretty good in the Philippines after the insurrection ended. The Manila League was a pretty good circuit with many military teams, including the 25th Infantry team that featured Oscar Charleston among others. The Marines had a very good team in the league and famous General Smedley Butler coached. Most US Navy ships had teams and would play when in port.
I've collected items from sailors stationed in China from the 1900's to the 30's and you'd be suprized by the things they carefully tucked away and brought back home - beer labels, luggage tags, handbills for tailors, etc - all perfectly preserved by tucking them into pages of albums and book. Some of that stuff looks like it was made yesterday, that's why I can see some Pirates surviving in great shape. Perhaps someday I'll find one of them tucked away as well!
I know nothing about the way they were issued, but if they were made by a British company, they most likely weren't sold in the Philippines (where American goods were sold) but in Shanghai, Canton or Hong Kong which were British or British controlled areas and American ships frequently stopped.
ctownboy
02-17-2014, 07:59 AM
Gary,
Thank you for that information.
Now, I can see how THAT was possible for cards to be found in great condition. Instead of soldiers getting the cards in England and then going to the Philippines the cards were instead made in England and sold at a port. There, a sailor could have bought them and taken them back on board his ship and kept them in some place safe and dry.
Much more logical.
David
1880nonsports
02-17-2014, 08:44 AM
most logical - not ONE of these ever saw the inside of a pack.
ctownboy
02-17-2014, 11:21 AM
Yes, most logical is that none of the cards ever were inserted into packs.
However, if people think that they were and that they were sold or otherwise distributed then having them sold or distributed at ports in Asia is more logical than having them sold or distributed in England and then they were carried to the Philippines.
David
Exhibitman
02-17-2014, 02:03 PM
We all may be right:
--A large cluster of high grade cards many hand cut found in England probably never did see the inside of a pack;
--The fact that the set had an ACC number means it is known from back in the day so likely not only a non-issued cluster of cards.
--I am certain that there are some other cards in the hands of collectors who do not share their holdings publicly and who do not slab their cards.
--Odds are that the issued Pirate cards were only a tiny part baseball, Judging from the variety of NS cards. None are easy to get.
--I have been chasing UK issued foreign export boxing cards for years. They show up both from the UK and Asian sellers from nations that are fully integrated into e-commerce in the collectibles field. China is not one of them. Cards I have seen from Asian countries that were war torn in WW2 are very scarce. I don't think much that was there survived the Japanese war machine. Thus far I have only gotten one prewar UK export card directly from an Asian seller and I have been carefully trolling Asian selling sites for years.
tedzan
02-17-2014, 03:03 PM
Several here have mentioned that the "Pirate" cards were printed in England.
Not so....the "Pirate" cards are "cousins" of the 1910-12 T215 cards that were printed in NYC at American Lithographic.
How many cards were shipped to the W.D. & H.O. Wills Tobacco Co. in England for inclusion in their "Pirate" cigarette packs we will never know.
Interestingly, Wills Tobacco started inserting cards in their cigarette packs in 1887. A popular set of cards were included in their packs in 1895
depicting Ships & Sailors that were printed in England.
During WWI, they had a colorful 50-card set of Generals printed in England for inclusion in their cigarette packs.
And in the 1930's, they had a high-quality, photographic-like color card set of "Football" (soccer) players included in their tobacco products.
TED Z
Several here have mentioned that the "Pirate" cards were printed in England.
Not so....the "Pirate" cards are "cousins" of the 1910-12 T215 cards that were printed in NYC at American Lithographic.
How many cards were shipped to the W.D. & H.O. Wills Tobacco Co. in England for inclusion in their "Pirate" cigarette packs we will never know.
Interestingly, Wills Tobacco started inserting cards in their cigarette packs in 1887. A popular set of cards were included in their packs in 1895
depicting Ships & Sailors that were printed in England.
During WWI, they had a colorful 50-card set of Generals printed in England for inclusion in their cigarette packs.
And in the 1930's, they had a high-quality, photographic-like color card set of "Football" (soccer) players included in their tobacco products.
TED Z
Ted, were the backs also printed in New York?
tedzan
02-17-2014, 06:20 PM
Sean
I tend to think that the "Pirate" backs and the "Pirate" packs were printed in England. So, we shipped to Wills Tobacco blank-backs of T215-type cards.
This would make more sense to me, since the "Pirate" Non-Sports Asian cards were most likely printed in England.
However, that contradicts my thinking that these recent finds of very sharp condition "Pirate" cards originated straight from the American Litho. Co.
Therefore, I gues I'm uncertain where the backs were printed.
Anyhow, those are my opinions.
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/aapiratecigpack.jpg.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bbpiratecigpack.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bt215pirate.jpg
TED Z
Well, we certainly agree that these Pirates were never distributed in packs. :)
Exhibitman
02-17-2014, 11:45 PM
Wills also made a number of high quality litho boxing sets in the era that were in packs in the UK so they were capable of churning out the cards themselves.
buymycards
02-22-2014, 10:07 AM
Lew Lipsett's book mentions that all of the known Pirate baseball cards have the green back. I noticed that all of the Pirate bb cards in thread have green backs and a closed cigarette pack.
Has anyone seen a Pirate baseball card with a back color other than green, or a back style other than the closed pack?
Notice the "magnums" back. It is noticeably larger than the other backs.
An interesting feature of the Pirate Non-baseball cards is that some of them have gold leaf on the front of the card, similar to the T205's. The cards I have pictured were purchased from a seller in China.
Rick
Lew Lipsett's book mentions that all of the known Pirate baseball cards have the green back. I noticed that all of the Pirate bb cards in thread have green backs and a closed cigarette pack.
Has anyone seen a Pirate baseball card with a back color other than green, or a back style other than the closed pack?
Notice the "magnums" back. It is noticeably larger than the other backs.
An interesting feature of the Pirate Non-baseball cards is that some of them have gold leaf on the front of the card, similar to the T205's. The cards I have pictured were purchased from a seller in China.
Rick
Have only ever seen one type of Pirate baseball card back.
Have only ever seen one type of Pirate baseball card back.
I haven't seen anything but the green back, nor have I ever heard any reference to anything other than that one back.