What is scrap and what isn't?

[Leon]

I was reading a thread just now on the BST (you know something is up when you see lots of replies) and a discussion concerning what "scrap" is? What do you define as scrap? What isn't scrap? Have we gotten too carried away with this stuff?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

When I think of scrap I think of blank back with no name t206.


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[packs]

I consider a scrap to be an unfinished card. So if you have a card that is completely printed but may be miscut, that is not a scrap. There should always be something unfinished about a scrap. If there are color shifts or overprinting of colors on an otherwise completely finished card, that card is not a scrap. It is simply mis-printed. At least in my opinion.

[frankbmd]

Scrap (on the market today) is the result of nefarious underpaid janitors who were trying to cash in on the side. Unfortunately none of them lived long enough.:D

[atx840]

I consider a scrap to be an unfinished card. So if you have a card that is completely printed but may be miscut, that is not a scrap. There should always be something unfinished about a scrap.


Yep, as well as being handcut. Some upside down backs & all brown OMs are finished and are scrap.

[Leon]

Yep, as well as being handcut. Some upside down backs & all brown OMs are finished and are scrap.

For sake of debate, why are Brown Old Mills considered scrap? Is the fact they are hand cut, but don't have other issues, still make them scrap?

[bnorth]

Scrap (on the market today) is the result of nefarious underpaid janitors who were trying to cash in on the side. Unfortunately none of them lived long enough.:D

The janitors and other employees might have back doored a small percentage. My uncle worked for one of the big guys for several years and the company would actually sell the scrap and print errors directly to error/variation dealers. They also sold huge lots of star players directly to dealers.

[Leon]

To me, this McGraw is scrap (Crandall shown for example purposes), but some other things people say are scrap, aren't. Maybe we are getting a bit too lenient with the term?

[JerryTotino]

Leon,

I would classify Brown Old Mills as scrap for several reasons. All confirmed examples are hand cut and they are not the normal color for this type of back. Thus, this back with Brown ink seems to have been a mistake or experiment. If there were actually intentions to distribute the Brown Old Mill I'm sure we would have run into a factory cut example by now and we would have also found them in greater numbers.

In addition, the fact that several of these come with the Factory 649 overprint it suggests that the printer knew they were scrap and ran at least several of these sheets through the printing process adding/testing the factory overprint process.

This also suggests that at least 2 full sheets of these backs may have been destroyed because there is only one known example with a single factory overprint and a second example with two factory overprints.

Jerry

[ALR-bishop]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=178959&highlight=scrap

[oldphil]

I feel that scrap=(s)crap.

[ullmandds]

To me, this McGraw is scrap (Crandall shown for example purposes), but some other things people say are scrap, aren't. Maybe we are getting a bit too lenient with the term?

Everybody wants their CRAP...to be SCRAP...because SCRAP..has become synonymous with SCRATCH!

[packs]

I don't think Brown Old Mills are scraps. They were unissued cards. They are complete and there is nothing missing from them that would differentiate them from issued cards. A color shift is not a scrap. A scrap is an incomplete card.

[ullmandds]

I don't think Brown Old Mills are scraps. They were unissued cards. They are complete and there is nothing missing from them that would differentiate them from issued cards. A color shift is not a scrap. A scrap is an incomplete card.

I agree!

[Bocabirdman]

Everybody wants their CRAP...to be SCRAP...because SCRAP..has become synonymous with SCRATCH!

To paraphrase George Carlin, "Have you ever noticed that your crap is scrap and other folk's scrap is crap?" :D

It is sort of along the same line as two signs in the store window, "We buy Junk!" "We sell Antiques!".:)

[Exhibitman]

I've always thought of anything that went out of the factory as intended--whether as an insert, salesman sample, or otherwise--that has a collectible error as a misprint-miscut-wrong back, etc. "Scrap" to me means something clearly handcut or uncut that did not go out through normal distribution channels. This is a misprint:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/E76%20McGovern-Britt%20misprint.jpg

This is a scrap:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/T220%20ungraded%20Coburn%20printer%20freak.jpg

Both are collectible, IMO, so the difference is really just semantics.

Uncut sheets and partial sheets I consider a subset of scraps. They were never intended to go out that way but were likely salvaged from the trash or pulled and saved by the company. Again, doesn't really matter since they are highly sought after by collectors.

[T205 GB]

So if the Joe Coburn above is scrap then why would this t205 not be? SGC said it was when they took my money but then refused to label it as such but still agree it is. Where are any other side to sides this bad? Had to be at least 1-2 rows like it. It's all in someone's opinion I guess or is it because it's not a T206?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

So if the Joe Coburn above is scrap then why would this t205 not be? SGC said it was when they took my money but then refused to label it as such but still agree it is. Where are any other side to sides this bad? Had to be at least 1-2 rows like it. It's all in someone's opinion I guess or is it because it's not a T206?

That player is obviously mislabeled. Everyone knows Titus had a gnarly stache!:D

[Bpm0014]

I think scrap should be defined as any card that did not pass quality control and therefore was never intended to be inserted into any pack or meant to be given away.

[packs]

I don't think the Coburn or the Titus are scraps. They are both complete cards, assuming the Titus has a back. A misprinted back or miscut card is not a scrap in my opinion. There are a ton of Play Ball cards out there with wrong backs. They are not scraps.

If both cards were missing backs, fronts, colors etc that would make them scraps.

[ullmandds]

I don't think the Coburn or the Titus are scraps. They are both complete cards, assuming the Titus has a back. A misprinted back or miscut card is not a scrap in my opinion. There are a ton of Play Ball cards out there with wrong backs. They are not scraps.

If both cards were missing backs, fronts, colors etc that would make them scraps.

+1

[Bocabirdman]

Keeping things simple, wouldn't scrap be stuff never intended for the public?

[Leon]

Keeping things simple wouldn't scrap be stuff never intended for the public?

What about proofs then?

[dog*dirt]

I consider a scrap to be an unfinished card. So if you have a card that is completely printed but may be miscut, that is not a scrap. There should always be something unfinished about a scrap. If there are color shifts or overprinting of colors on an otherwise completely finished card, that card is not a scrap. It is simply mis-printed. At least in my opinion.

I think the definition of scrap as an unfinished card is accurate as it was intended to be discarded and not to be put in circulation. Cards that have certain "printing errors" such as missing color, miscut or multiple strikes, that made it into circulation are just that as in they are errors and not scrap imo.

[barrysloate]

I would define scrap as something the printer intended to discard, and not make available to the public via normal business channels. Scraps that enter our hobby were either pulled out of the trash, given as a gift to an employee (maybe one who had young kids), or in some cases sneaked out of the factory when nobody was looking.

Leon's Brown Old Mill/ Cy Young /Southern leaguer/ kitchen sink card would be a scrap because the printer was likely experimenting with different inks and plates, and then planning to throw out the sheet.

[Bocabirdman]

What about proofs then?

If the proof was intended for some other purpose and walked out of the factory in someone's lunchbox, perhaps you could make a case for scrap. Actually we call it what we want when we want. I was only offering up a simplistic answer. Barry elaborated on it a touch. Scrap, to me, was intended for the trash bin and rescued. Misprints are Quality Control misses. (In my humblest of opinions.):)

[drcy]

Scraps were sheets where the printing didn't come out right, so they were thrown away (scrapped) and someone figuratively or literally retrieved them from the trash can and hand cut the cards. The worker may have brought the sheet home for his kids.

Most scraps are handcut and have bad or missing printing. A lot of the psychedelic misprints, cards missing colors or terribly overlapping colors are scraps-- tossed away due to the bad printing. They often have blank backs but can have printed backs.

Most proofs offered for sale are actually scraps.

Scraps really only have extra value if the printing is especially unusual and striking. If entire colors are strikingly missing, such a card printed in only black and yellow, or the color alignment is totally off to the point of causing vertigo, that can bring a premium. I assume blank backs bring a premium. Otherwise, the card is just printing that didn't meet standards and should be valued less than a factory finished card.

I wouldn't surprised if factory cut blank backs made it into cigarette packs. Blank backs have been pulled out of Topps packs. I pulled a blank back out of a 1979 Topps pack as a kid.

Identifying proofs of cards is tricky. Sometimes they are on different stock and have crosses and marks so can be identified as such, while other times they look just like blank back misprints. I've had proofs from 1989 Gurnsey Topps Archive auction that looked just like regular blank back cards. The fronts were normal with all the printing. The only way I knew for sure they were proofs was Topps said they were. Other proofs from the same auction were clearly proofs just looking at them, as they were on very different stock (smooth bright white instead of the normal rough grey/brown Topps stock), blank backed and the fronts contained as few as one color and had no text. One proof had just the yellow ink.

The most interesting trading card proof I have is on transparent mylar sheets. Each sheet has a different color ink and when you put sheets on top of each other you get the finished design. It's clearly not a scrap.

[Bocabirdman]

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers:D.

:)

[brob28]

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers:D.

:)



I think this is a great summary. For clarity within our hobby, I would add:

Scrap: Not intended for the public
Misprints: Included in print runs intended for public distribution
Proof: Intended for internal use to determine feasability or design review.

[wonkaticket]

My company produces all sorts of items for distribution, for us it’s very simple. Anything that isn’t a fully finished product as intended by the licensor or our own internal approval for mass distribution is a scrap product.

Sure we can define certain stages of what that item may be internally but all are part of the full production process and were not intended for the public to see or own.

[Exhibitman]

The Coburn is most likely scrap because it is not to size for an issued card and is obviously hand-cut. I suppose it could have gone into a pack but I seriously doubt it. The Titus* looks to me an issued miscut.

* "Ill take Titties for $100 Alex"
"That's 'Titus' Mr. Connery"
"Not much with the ladies are you, Trebek?"
--with apologies to one of my favorite SNL sketches ever, celebrity Jeopardy with Sean Connery.

[mrvster]

I will refer to T206 in this post.....but all scrap are the same when it comes to cardboard/printing...


This is right up my alley....I have been differentiating "scrap" vs. "crap" for the last 15 or so years.....

Printer's Scrap.......is sometimes HARD to differentiate, but most are very obvious...the real deal scrap deserve mucho scratch/cheddar what ever you want to call it ,:) THEY ARE UNIQUE CARDS UNTO THEMSELVES....alternative T206 cards, if you will....(I am almost surprised Mr. Ullman is not all over them, they are almost , essentially "bizarro" T206 , the exact opposite of T206)...

THIS is why I love ' Em....they are not the mundane, same 'ol cards.....these are unique unto themselves "snow flakes" "gems":D.....

usually, with scrap, no one else can own the card you do....a special card....

even similar scrap are different from each other....

I enjoy the FREAKINESS of them....they are aesthetically SICK.....and with no disrespect to the players pictured, almost SPOOKY:D



a "tweener" scrap (as I have termed them), are almost positively scrap, but can not get the 100 % positive confirmation.....I will touch on this later...


first off....AL BROWN OLD MILL ARE 1000 % SCRAP! O Ya....they are hand cut from a sheet that NEVER MADE IT INTO FACTORY PACKS/ CUT...they are a rare , non issued back...basically a F up:D


ALL SCRAP WERE not distributed in ANY packs. RE- PEAT SCRAPS WERE NOT ISSUED TO THE PUBLIC....they are essentially not even production cards......they are any cards that WERE NOT inserted into packs/or distributed to the public.....they were only privy to the people involved in the print process/distribution/ or design.....or the dumpster divers:D:)....they were mistakes/ or sheets used to set up the print machines for the production cards....hence, the printers created works of art without even knowing...


they give clues on the process of the lithography(which was beautiful I might add)....




PHEW...

1000% scraps are HAND CUT......true SCRAP is always hand cut....there may have been a factory blank back sheet that was factory cut, but I truly doubt it...

ALL SCRAPS ARE HAND CUT....the real obvious are the oversized hand cut......

most scrap have something wrong with it(ghost, missing ink, color, registration problem, miscut, ect, ect)....BUT NOT ALL OF THEM DO...


"tweener" scrap are most likely scraps, but can't be 100 % verified( cut short, ect)



if you need an opinion on a T206 Scrap/ or tweener....please email me.....

:)


scrap are big bux, if someone tries to pawn one off on you as scrap, and your not sure, email me(I will not bother you to sell it unless your willing:):D)


Peace

[barrysloate]

The Coburn is most likely scrap because it is not to size for an issued card and is obviously hand-cut. I suppose it could have gone into a pack but I seriously doubt it. The Titus* looks to me an issued miscut.

* "Ill take Titties for $100 Alex"
"That's 'Titus' Mr. Connery"
"Not much with the ladies are you, Trebek?"
--with apologies to one of my favorite SNL sketches ever, celebrity Jeopardy with Sean Connery.

Alex, I'll take "The Rapists" for $100 please

That's "Therapists" Mr. Connery!

[Peter_Spaeth]

My company produces all sorts of items for distribution, for us it’s very simple. Anything that isn’t a fully finished product as intended by the licensor or our own internal approval for mass distribution is a scrap product.

Sure we can define certain stages of what that item may be internally but all are part of the full production process and were not intended for the public to see or own.

Hang onto it 100 years from now some lunatics may view it as a collectible. :D

[MVSNYC]

Once i saw Leon's initial post, i knew Johnny would be all over this thread. ;)

As many people above have mentioned, they are cards that, for one reason or another, were weeded out due to QC issues, and never made it into distribution- missing color, blank back, upside down back, ghosts, multi-strike test runs, etc.

A few that i own...

[mrvster]

you know I'm scrap dreaming all day;)

I LOVE Those scraps you have....

the Hart is a sister card to my Thebo, Jamie's and Steve's.....off same sheet.....just like a brown old mill sheet.....total sickness:eek: rare cards...

Lafitte....who can't love these S.Ler's in the BB?????????? true scrap and beautiful...

I have one the Sweeney triplet....and the Mcintyre really "pops"....look at all those colors missing...anemic....:eek:

a sick display o' scraps there my friend....

Peter....:).......that was funny....

[bn2cardz]

My company produces all sorts of items for distribution, for us it’s very simple. Anything that isn’t a fully finished product as intended by the licensor or our own internal approval for mass distribution is a scrap product.

Sure we can define certain stages of what that item may be internally but all are part of the full production process and were not intended for the public to see or own.

Hang onto it 100 years from now some lunatics may view it as a collectible. :D

I have kept some "scrap" from a former company. One year we produced the badges for a Tiger Woods Golf Tournament and they got misprinted (If I recall they didn't have the cut lines so they couldn't get cut properly since that was all done digitally) so I kept the press run that got messed up. Hopefully some day Tiger Wood's collectors find them collectible making moving the rolls from house to house worth it. Also I know I am the only one with them because the other people at the company thought I was strange for wanting them so when QC found more mistakes they would bring them to me and ask if I wanted those also.

[frankbmd]

My company produces all sorts of items for distribution, for us it’s very simple. Anything that isn’t a fully finished product as intended by the licensor or our own internal approval for mass distribution is a scrap product.

Sure we can define certain stages of what that item may be internally but all are part of the full production process and were not intended for the public to see or own. Wonkaticket

Hang onto it 100 years from now some lunatics may view it as a collectible. Peter Spaeth

I have kept some "scrap" from a former company. One year we produced the badges for a Tiger Woods Golf Tournament and they got misprinted (If I recall they didn't have the cut lines so they couldn't get cut properly since that was all done digitally) so I kept the press run that got messed up. Hopefully some day Tiger Wood's collectors find them collectible making moving the rolls from house to house worth it. Also I know I am the only one with them because the other people at the company thought I was strange for wanting them so when QC found more mistakes they would bring them to me and ask if I wanted those also. bn2cardz

IF scrap hoarders need 100 years to find a lunatic buyer, there may be more than one lunatic in the scrap supply chain.
Personally I'm placing a large bet today with my bookie on the winner of the 2112 Kentucky Derby. Call Me Crazy .......maybe frankbmd

This post is respectfully submitted on a hand cut 3 x 5 blank back file card provided by Miss Ima Scrapsheet, VP of Communications for ScrapsRUs, a company you will not find on the web. Their website developer is also a lunatic. ;)

Hang on to it, Leon.:eek:

[wolf441]

Alex, I'll take "The Rapists" for $100 please

That's "Therapists" Mr. Connery!

Alex, I'll take "The Penis Mightier" for $200

That's "The Pen is Mightier" Mr Connery...

[steve B]

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers:D.

:)

That's a good definition, one that can be understood easily and covers most situations.

Looking at it more technically, there are a lot of stages of proofs depending on the way the printer and customer work. The shop I was at did nearly no proofing. Probably a photographic mockup for customer approval, but not much more. Topps uses an amazingly wide array of proofs for different stages of the design and approval process.

In a way, make ready sheets are proofs. Just the final stage where the equipment gets adjusted as production begins. Some are nearly "good enough" to be released, some aren't even close.

And "scrap" can actually be finished product that ends up being discarded. We tossed something like 12,000 college course catalogs that were overordered by the college. No room at their office. We found lots of places to put the first 12k copies, stacked to the ceiling, on top of file cabinets, under desks, basically anywhere a box would fit. After a few months they said to trash the rest. No real problem since they'd already paid for them.

With T206 there are a few that would obviously be "scraps" but don't have any of the usual scrap faults. Like this Ewing. Obviously hand cut, but entirely finished except for cutting. My guess is that either it was leftover when the change to shipping 350's began, or that the sheet was partly damaged and someone brought it home.

Steve B

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1877

[barrysloate]

Alex, I'll take "The Penis Mightier" for $200

That's "The Pen is Mightier" Mr Connery...

Good one!:)

[t206hound]

Like this Ewing. Obviously hand cut, but entirely finished except for cutting. My guess is that either it was leftover when the change to shipping 350's began, or that the sheet was partly damaged and someone brought it home.

Steve B

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1877

there won't be a correct definition, but I wouldn't say this is scrap. No way to tell if this was done at the factory or at home by someone's two year old sister.

[steve B]

there won't be a correct definition, but I wouldn't say this is scrap. No way to tell if this was done at the factory or at home by someone's two year old sister.

I'm almost positive those cuts aren't from the factory :D

It's a great example of a hard to define card. Nothing obviously wrong except the cut, but probably cut from a sheet or partial sheet because of the size of the borders. It could also simply be a normal card that was oversize and off center that someones 2yr old sister got at with scissors.

It was cheap enough back in the early 80's that I can't be too worried. At the time I bought it I think commons were around $3 and this one would have been a lot less, maybe 50 cents?

Steve B

[thehoodedcoder]

Stuff that Johnny V collects for a thousand Alex.

[mrvster]

:):)

You guys rock.....Erick, and Steve......this Ewing is A PERFECT example of a "TWEENER"....Scrap....

The Ewing, is scrap, but hard to prove:confused:......Steve knows it is scrap:confused:.....I know it's scrap.......HOUND DAWG, you have the eye on everything, but Ewing is a tough call.....I call on Erick for opinions all the time on objective scrap views, Erick's eye is like an eagle, He knows his Shit, but Ewing is a tuf call, because of the not so obvious scrap signs, putting it in the "tweener" category....but I know it's scrap due to the circumstantial evidence....Steve had a good call on Ewing...


going to break it down in tweener terms.....maybe Chris B can elaborate also...

Tweeners are the "grey " area of scrap......there are some beauties in the Piedy 150 run, due to the poor quality control in the early printing....just common sense....the lithography of these beauties were still in a "kinda of an experimental stage," first runs(some of the best scrap came out of the Piedy 150 runs)


Id love to see Ewing in person.....these "NON ISSUED" scraps are in a subset of their own... these "tweeners" will jump right out at me....

EWING CLUES:

1) top border peak above the "150" to the bottom highest point= (STEVE PLEASE measure), to the bottom "dip" is obvious scrap characteristics..........first big clue....this looks from the scan to be greater than 1/16th of an inch taller than the 2 5/8"...granted, there are OVERSIZED T206 top to bottom that exist out there, but the probability learns toward scrap with this card...


2) obvious miscut/misaligned / cut job, due to the super wide left front border(right reverse)..the back is another dead give away/ .....



THE SIZE, and obvious BACK miscut lead this to be a "TWEENER".....hard to "chop"
up a standard size 206 to reflect those characteristics and dimensions on the card.....


need a measurement! top highest point to the bottom dip....

coupled with the early 150 print run.....HIGH PROBABILTY OF SCRAP....90 % or greater inmho.....id love to hold this card., that's when one can really tell..


The bad hack job on the right side, still may have been done after the original card was cut off the scrap sheet......that could've been the annoying little sister with scissors:D:confused:

If this had a bad registration/ghost image/ color shift/ missing color/ double exposure/ missing ink/ ect, ect....any 1 more "clue" to scrap, it would be a 100% scrap then...


iv been searching for these for many years, and after a while, you can pick 'em right out of a line up.....but some are "not so obvious", as in the case with this particular card of Ewing....

starring at it many times when Steve had posted it, leads me to believe it's a tweener scrap, but I need that measurement
:)

[MuddyMules]

www.printingtips.com/glossary.asp

This site sums it up. Maybe the rules should be followed from actual printers that have already done the research, instead of coming up with a debate on what it should or should not be. If the card grading companies would follow the same standards that have been written longer than these companies have been in business, there would not be such a difference between them all. Since they are in business to make money, each grader will always make an attempt to change the rules into their own to be competitive.

Flop
Reversing a negative or transparency so that the image that was on the left side is now on the right.

Makeready
1.The process of setting up and adjusting a printing press for a particular ink, paper and specifications prior to printing. This includes adjusting the infeed, grippers and guides, adjusting ink for proper coverage, registering copy, and matching the printed piece with the proof to be sure everything is correct. Also referred to as set up. 2. The paper used while making all the necessary adjustments before printing the actual run. Also referred to as set up.

Proof
A copy of the artwork representing the finished product. It is used for review and approval.

Misregister
A problem in multiple color printing when the different color images do not line up properly as the successive colors are printed on the page.

Trapping
The overlapping of adjoining colors or ink to help prevent the possibility of a fine white area showing between colors due to misregistration of color negatives or due to normal variations on the press.



Make-ready sheets would be used for the printing press and then used for the cutters. Make-ready sheets would get mixed into the other sheets by mistake and cut and shipped. When you are cutting 4" thick blocks of press sheets, into 1" x 2" cards, the last thing you would want to do is go through the entire stack to check for a miscut card. If there were ten cards in that row, you would not want to take a chance on these stacks falling over and having to re-stack every card, especially when you're working with thousands of small cards. More concentration would be spent making sure your fingers are not in the blades and that your blocks used to hold the stacks, were actually holding the stacks up so they would not fall over.

Hand cut cards are NOT make-ready material and more than likely did not come from the factory. A printer would be proud of his/her product and would not take a pair of scissors and cut it up. Most likely, it was a child, at home, back when kids would actually do something constructive. If a card has been hand cut, instead of straight cut by a machine, it should be considered as "altered" or "trimmed", not make-ready or waste that was smuggled out in someones pocket. In my opinion, a hand-cut card should only be acceptable if the card had to be cut out from some other product.

A prepress proof is made prior to the product ever being printed in quantities. I worked in a printing company for years and had to burn images from four color separation negatives onto a sheet of paper and then rub different colored toners on each image until the final proof was obtained, laminated and approved by the customer, prior to ever being considered for printing. printwiki.org/Cromalin The four color separation would come from a camera shot and scanned to separate the four colors. You have four basic colors, Black, Cyan Magenta and Yellow. Each color has it own angle of half-tone dots, so you do not end up with a moire during printing. Besides these four main colors, there are several thousand other special colors that can be made. The majority of customers want to stay with the four color process to keep the costs down. instead of printing special colors and having to wash out the cylinders of the press for a special color run.

Prepress Proof
Any proof that has been made, using a photographical process opposed to a press proof that is an actual printed copy off the press.

Press Proof
A proof that is produce on the press using the inks and paper specified for that order.

Laminate Proof
A type of proof that uses laminate powdered toner to create a color image, such as Matchprint and Cromalin® proofs.

[mrvster]

great input.....but i'm sure some complete sheets never made it to machines for cutting for whatever reason.....the Ewing has oversized characteristics from the scan.....I'd love to know the dimensions top/to bottom on this card......it doesn't have any of the other obvious scrap characteristics. I mentioned earlier...


this was obviously not a "make ready" sheet, or falling in any of those definitions, but certain T206 cards we know never made it into the packs for distribution....Ewing is a "debatable" card making it a "tweener" scrap to me:)

tweener= an "in-between" can't make up our mind:confused::) but leaning toward printer's scrap

[mrvster]

btw....my favorites are make readies:D

[MuddyMules]

great input.....but i'm sure some complete sheets never made it to machines for cutting for whatever reason.....the Ewing has oversized characteristics from the scan.....I'd love to know the dimensions top/to bottom on this card......

The cutting of different weights of paper has different considerations. When cutting lighter-weight papers, it often happens that the knife as it cuts through the stack pulls sheets from beneath the clamp, resulting in upper sheets which are cut shorter than lower layers, a situation known as overcut. In contrast, harder stocks, such as cardboard, result in an undercut, or a small cut in an undesirable area, caused by insufficient clamp pressure.

http://printwiki.org/Cutting_and_Trimming

[mrvster]

but all the stock should have been consistent for the most part right???:confused: since there was probably some deviation.....I'm still sure there had to have been some that were taken home/ thrown aside:confused:

[MuddyMules]

btw....my favorites are make readies:D

Now that's a perfect example of a make-ready sheet and it's one of the best examples that I've seen. I love the extra run on the magenta going through the press with a different set of plates. Thanks for sharing.

[MuddyMules]

but all the stock should have been consistent for the most part right???:confused: since there was probably some deviation.....I'm still sure there had to have been some that were taken home/ thrown aside:confused:

I'm sure someone took something home. We all do......

The thickness of the stock would be the same during a first run. The thickness of the stock could change on a second or third printing of the card(s). A perfectly centered card at a perfect size would have came from the top of the stack. The inconsistency would have come from the sheets shifting during the cut. The thicker the stack of sheets, the more shifting of the sheets. If you had a guy in a hurry to cut the sheets or show off that he could cut more sheets than the next guy, this would cause inconsistency.

If ALL of the same player cards were printed at the same time, regardless the paper will be the same thickness. The only variable would be a reorder/reprint of the cards, using the same negatives to make new plates and a possible paper product change. A lot of times a customer would reorder "certain" player cards and the printing company would not reprint the same layout because the plates were already destroyed or they did not need the "other" players. They would use the same negatives to create new plates, which would cause a difference in color variation, cutting variations and paper thickness, in which these cards could have been printed on a different press, depending on the new layout of the cards on the sheet. A customer may have only ordered 1,000 of one player but 10,000 of a more popular player and then decided that they needed 1,000 more of only one of the players.

[Brian Van Horn]

When I bought this card the seller had listed it as scrap because of the waviness in the right border. I do not consider it scrap, but I will leave it up to your opinion:

[steve B]

:)

starring at it many times when Steve had posted it, leads me to believe it's a tweener scrap, but I need that measurement
:)

Peak to peak is 2 21/32, side to side is just barely under 1 1/2. So just barely over the nominal size both ways. But so close I wouldn't consider it oversized. The back is lined up fairly well with the front.

So yes, it very well could be a hack job by a kid somewhere along the line.

Steve B

[mrvster]

you got that from a great seller....but not sure that's scrap sorry:o

Ted...loving your expertise.....just sent you an email....want to share my circus with you...think you deserve it:D

[atx840]

Classic Johnny "Tweener"....handcut and missing some ink...could be scrap but not much of a premium.

Thanks again Eric.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2842/8832992912_f52d21428c_c.jpg

[mrvster]

love the "tweener" jack....

Steve

DAMN:confused:

mystery solved......I had "scrap" eyes :)

email me steve so I can show you the circus:)

[Brian Van Horn]

[QUOTE=mrvster;1240799]you got that from a great seller....but not sure that's scrap sorry:o

Thank you,

Brian

[Pat R]

Johnny, that Myers is a beauty!!!

[steve B]

Teds done way more than I have. I just got a good overview in a place that cross trained and actually made us do work in different departments. Plus a few years of repair work on machinery including presses, and studying industrial history a bit.

Different shops do things slightly differently, usually depending on exactly what market they were in. We did a lot of higher quality work for colleges and the government. A couple guys had worked for other shops and those other places were each very different. One was huge and busy with large volume lower quality, the other was a tiny shop that did lots of flyers and business cards. Both had shortcuts to either make things faster or cheaper.

We didn't do the chromalin proofs like Ted did. Most customers sent in their own art, so the few "proofs" were one color sort of photographic things. (That's how few there were, I only saw maybe five in two+ years and they never told me what they were called.) Usually handmade into books to verify the page layouts worked properly.

One of the challenges for me has been translating from modern printing which as Ted says is nearly all CMYK for images. The place I worked ran custom colors for stuff like borders or stripes, but straight CMYK for color pictures. Those borders could be CMYK as well, but for small runs I think it was cheaper to mix than do color separation which was fairly expensive in 79-81.
Topps didn't even do it for borders back then and their press runs were huge.

They also never sent the makeready sheets to cutting.

We also had very few makeready sheets. The first job I ran the press for was in register after 7-8 sheets. The last one I did was in register after 3. All the makeready sheets I did except one would have probably been acceptable at Topps at the time. :D The stripping and platemaking departments made even a trainee like me look good. I took some stuff home, but none of the ones I did. Just a couple things I thought were cool. Book covers with a fighter plane, and a danger sign for a laser lab. "danger! class 4 laser range do not enter without proper eye protection" I had it hung up in my room for years :D

The four color process was fairly new in 1909-10. So T cards are an odd mix. Some colors are halftone, some aren't. And there are 6-8 colors on most cards. The colors aren't necessarily done photographically, and I'm convinced the stones were laid out from transfers printed from master stones. Many of the commercial stones I see have multiple items on them that wouldn't be printed alongside each other. Including the one stone with a 1910 ish hockey card.

For what it's worth, T206s are very consistent as far as the paper stock goes. I measured about 50 of them and they were all within about .003 of each other.


Hey Ted - I've got to ask. Did the press guys ever pull the trick of telling you that you could tell the ink was mixed properly by holding your hand over it and feeling how warm it had become? (The obvious punchline is that they would slap your hand into the ink getting it all over , and that stuff is hard to clean off.) In our place it was almost an initiation. They never pulled it on a new guy or someone they didn't like.(There are far worse things for them) Once pranked you were "in"

It's great having Ted comment. I'm learning stuff. Especially the proper terms for stuff I know is done and why, but didn't know the technical name. Like trapping.

Steve B

[mrvster]

Thanks:)

this is a great thread....Steve, as always, thanks for your insight sir;)

[MuddyMules]

Hey Ted - I've got to ask. Did the press guys ever pull the trick of telling you that you could tell the ink was mixed properly by holding your hand over it and feeling how warm it had become? (The obvious punchline is that they would slap your hand into the ink getting it all over , and that stuff is hard to clean off.) In our place it was almost an initiation. They never pulled it on a new guy or someone they didn't like.(There are far worse things for them) Once pranked you were "in"

It's great having Ted comment. I'm learning stuff. Especially the proper terms for stuff I know is done and why, but didn't know the technical name. Like trapping.

Steve B

Thanks Steve and back atcha. Your input is fantastic.

I never had the honor of dipping my hands in ink, since I worked in the prepress department. I still had to go out on the press to look at issues with the plates and to help with verifying the color to the proof.

Now.....when I first started out as a rookie, I did have to chase down a "bucket of half-tone dots" because the pressman told me they needed more half-tones for the press. They also had me look for a "plate stretcher" because they couldn't get the colors in register on the make-ready sheets and that they needed to stretch the plate to get it in register. All in fun........I miss that family.

You mentioned that the make-ready sheets would not go to the cutters....what our guys would do is put the make-ready sheets on top of the paper load, after final printing, to keep dust, dirt, drinks, food, people's asses from sitting on the loads, etc... off of the good sheets to help eliminate any additional waste. Sometimes they would write across the sheets to let everyone know what was under the make-ready sheet as well. The make-ready sheets would go through the plant on top of the paper load all the way to the finish before it ended up in the scrap bin. Sometimes they would simply get mixed in to the good sheets after they came off of the press or when the straight cutter would jog the paper into the cutter. You pick up the first few sheets and sit them in the cutter, with the make-ready sheet still on top, turn your back to talk to some yapping co-worker complaining about his life, turn back around and pick up another few sheets, put them on top of the other sheets and there you have it, a make-ready sheet mixed in to all of the good sheets, cut, boxed and out the door with no one ever knowing.

Also, I just want to go back to a printers mindset. If a printer were to take something home, I guarantee that they would take the "perfect" printing over a mistake every time. They would be proud to show their family what they produced. Printers are very picky and passionate about the product they produce. Most of our guys or gals took a lot of pride in their work. They were journeymen and they wanted the work to be perfect. It was a competition between them to show who could produce a nicer product at a faster rate with minimal waste. Hand cuts would not have come from the printers that I knew and worked with. Off center or miscuts were common and were not avoidable all of the time, especially on the deeper sheets in the cutter, but they hated them. Once cut, it's too late, they're not printing them again. A good pressman would not like producing out of register cards, hickeys, missing colors, flopped backs, etc....they did love a misspelled name or word, because that came from my department and they would love to rub it in that we were idiots.

Every department had scrap factored in to the production of the final product. I cannot remember the percentage allowed for scrap, but it was minimal. You were paid good money to produce a product and it better by right and up and running quick. The faster it shipped, the faster the invoice went out.

Oh and by the way, the customer wanted everything perfect from the printer. No mistakes. Would you pay an invoice for a box of crap? Yes, "crap" is what it was before it was collected, not scrap.

[ls7plus]

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers:D.

:)

Very, very interesting--perhaps the ambiguity is why (I have been advised) PSA stopped grading proofs some time ago. +1 on the above.

May your collecting bring great joy to you, and tolerance from your spouse!

Larry

[Blunder19]

Scrap-alicious :)

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/IMG_1463.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/blunder19/media/IMG_1463.jpg.html)
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/IMG_1465.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/blunder19/media/IMG_1465.jpg.html)
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/IMG_1466.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/blunder19/media/IMG_1466.jpg.html)
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/IMG_1464.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/blunder19/media/IMG_1464.jpg.html)
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/teststrips2.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/blunder19/media/teststrips2.jpg.html)

[steve B]

Thanks Steve and back atcha. Your input is fantastic.

I never had the honor of dipping my hands in ink, since I worked in the prepress department. I still had to go out on the press to look at issues with the plates and to help with verifying the color to the proof.

Now.....when I first started out as a rookie, I did have to chase down a "bucket of half-tone dots" because the pressman told me they needed more half-tones for the press. They also had me look for a "plate stretcher" because they couldn't get the colors in register on the make-ready sheets and that they needed to stretch the plate to get it in register. All in fun........I miss that family.

You mentioned that the make-ready sheets would not go to the cutters....what our guys would do is put the make-ready sheets on top of the paper load, after final printing, to keep dust, dirt, drinks, food, people's asses from sitting on the loads, etc... off of the good sheets to help eliminate any additional waste. Sometimes they would write across the sheets to let everyone know what was under the make-ready sheet as well. The make-ready sheets would go through the plant on top of the paper load all the way to the finish before it ended up in the scrap bin. Sometimes they would simply get mixed in to the good sheets after they came off of the press or when the straight cutter would jog the paper into the cutter. You pick up the first few sheets and sit them in the cutter, with the make-ready sheet still on top, turn your back to talk to some yapping co-worker complaining about his life, turn back around and pick up another few sheets, put them on top of the other sheets and there you have it, a make-ready sheet mixed in to all of the good sheets, cut, boxed and out the door with no one ever knowing.

Also, I just want to go back to a printers mindset. If a printer were to take something home, I guarantee that they would take the "perfect" printing over a mistake every time. They would be proud to show their family what they produced. Printers are very picky and passionate about the product they produce. Most of our guys or gals took a lot of pride in their work. They were journeymen and they wanted the work to be perfect. It was a competition between them to show who could produce a nicer product at a faster rate with minimal waste. Hand cuts would not have come from the printers that I knew and worked with. Off center or miscuts were common and were not avoidable all of the time, especially on the deeper sheets in the cutter, but they hated them. Once cut, it's too late, they're not printing them again. A good pressman would not like producing out of register cards, hickeys, missing colors, flopped backs, etc....they did love a misspelled name or word, because that came from my department and they would love to rub it in that we were idiots.

Every department had scrap factored in to the production of the final product. I cannot remember the percentage allowed for scrap, but it was minimal. You were paid good money to produce a product and it better by right and up and running quick. The faster it shipped, the faster the invoice went out.

Oh and by the way, the customer wanted everything perfect from the printer. No mistakes. Would you pay an invoice for a box of crap? Yes, "crap" is what it was before it was collected, not scrap.


Sounds like the same sort of shop just a bit bigger. Ours had around 20 people. I did a total of four days in prepress. One each in camera and platemaking during a couple huge rush jobs. And two days in the stripping dept (Opening for off color jokes in case any of you missed it) That was because of a camera operator who hit his "lunch" a bit too hard and got an entire afternoons worth of negatives all spotted from airborne dust. It was apparently cheaper to give me a light table spot and a bottle of the red whiteout like stuff than it was to reshoot the whole thing. Followed by my second day in the camera room which I don't count since it was all cleaning - Not bad, a cool job for a couple days and only one crummy one to balance it out. They were good that way.

One time we did a Two color program for some awards ceremony. And I had to go through all 1500 of them to find 50 perfect ones for the winners who were all pictured. That gave me a better appreciation for just how common tiny hickeys and ink spots really were.
(For the rest of you- Hickeys are a term for fisheyes. I'm pretty sure neither is the proper technical term, but I'm now sure Hickeys was common in at least two shops. :D )

Those pranks sound good. The other ones in our place were tossing the general help in the waste paper bins - Big canvas ones, maybe 4 ft tall and 2 1/2 x 4 ft. And one of the press guys tried surprising me with an ink cup containing some solvent and a firecracker. It went off when he tried to light the fuse in the stairwell. Damn funny. No injuries, but he looked like the coyote in the roadrunner show and wouldn't immediately explain to me just what the __ had just happened in the stairwell.

Not too many people actually miss their early jobs, but I sure do. print shop was actually my third job, after a photolab and assisting a photographer. Both also pretty cool jobs.

And just to keep stuff close to on topic.

In stamps errors that got released are usually valuable and widely collected. But stuff that got saved/stolen from the trash is referred to as printers scrap and is only worth a minimal ammount as a curiosity. Just the opposite of what we do.

Steve B

[Pete Pyro]

The scrap craze should come with a caveat if it's for investment. They are interesting examples of one-of-a-kind cards, but it seems too much like the "tulip" bubble reference

[mrvster]

as collectors become more advanced in the set, they realize the scrap's uniqueness and rarity.....they are just finally getting the recognition they deserve.....:)

[ullmandds]

as collectors become more advanced in the set, they realize the scrap's uniqueness and rarity.....they are just finally getting the recognition they deserve.....:)

Nice appeal to scrap collectors sense of self worth and perception of intelligence!

[ullmandds]

[QUOTE=mrvster;1240281](I am almost surprised Mr. Ullman is not all over them, they are almost , essentially "bizarro" T206 , the exact opposite of T206)...



Johny...I DO find these scraps interesting...they are very cool...and I love to see them...just not at the crazy prices being paid for them!

[Leon]

Nice appeal to scrap collectors sense of self worth and perception of intelligence!

He has a point though. When you are a die hard T206 collector and finish up what is doable for you, then what? From experience I can confidently say some collectors that are life long collectors, and have completed the whole set, have started collecting them.

[ullmandds]

He has a point though. When you are a die hard T206 collector and finish up what is doable for you, then what? From experience I can confidently say some collectors that are life long collectors, and have completed the whole set, have started collecting them.

Leon...that's a really nice sentiment on valentines day...like a good relationship...the love keeps growing as you expose more about your mate!

Or in my case...once I saw the Lunacy within(T206 that is)...I broke up with her!!!!!

[frankbmd]

An Ode to Johnny V
An adaptation by Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, Eminem & Rihanna

I'm friends with the monster that's under my bed
Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop
Get along with the voices inside of my head
Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop
You're trying to save me, stop holding your breath
And you think I'm crazy, yeah, you think I'm crazy
Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop

Yet, it don’t mean a thing, if it ain’t got that swing
Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop
If it’s not a piece of crap, you ain’t got that scrap
Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop
It makes no difference if it’s sweet or not
Just give that dealer everything you got
Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop, Doo-wop

[ullmandds]

How about an audio clip of you singing, frank??

[mrvster]

Just got off a terrible 16 hour day to read this thread.....and it just put a HUGE smile on my face! :D

LOVE the SONG FRANK the man!!:).....and Leon, Frank and Pete , you are the collectors , the veterans, who really define this hobby to many.....true living legends....Wonka, Tim, Jim, Johnny , Clayton, Adam, Vin, Mike, Chris B, Mike S., Hank, Erick, Jamie, Chaz, Barry , Scott, OMG, there are so so many more I haven't mentioned, you guys know who you are....just are golden in this hobby;)....make it a hobby for me.....I wouldn't enjoy the hobby as much if I couldn't read this board , or have met half the decent people in this world....

Gotta say, T206 and collectors here make my life , a sad as that might sound, it's very true:)

YOU GUYS ROCK...


btw.....I have come to realize over the years that without decent collectors, the cards are not as fun:o.....and in essence, are worthless.....people are what drive these:)


Happy V day everyone:).....enjoy the freak show...

btw...if anyone would like to see my circus, just email me:)

[teetwoohsix]

Hey Johnny, I just wanted to say that I always enjoy your enthusiasm and input, I feel you also make the board a great place. We've had many conversations and your collection (in my opinion) is one of the best I have had the pleasure to view!

I LOVE scrap cards, miscuts, ghosts, WST's, and even color shifts. If I could afford to collect these cards I would. I do go after the small stuff, like WST's and color shifts, the other stuff is just a bit out of range. But for the collector who loves one of a kind cards, this is where it's at. That's why I don't think it's a bubble, more of a dimension :D that more collectors will eventually gravitate to (if you stick with T206's).If I ever won the lottery, you guys better watch out ;) :D

To each their own, I ALWAYS love to look at these cards-even freaks from other sets-because they are unique.

Sincerely, Clayton

[mrvster]

Thanks my friend! you are one of the rock solid guys here(and anywhere)...RIGHT back at ya! you have GREAT taste in 206 and cards in general.....your input on this board is sought after ......your focus on what you can afford is just incredible....great eye.....great guy.....a collector who makes this board what it was...

btw...thanks for holding that sov 460, that was another thing that collectors don't even know...you were willing to part with some cards you loved just to better my collection....true self less deeds you do Clayton B;)