You Guys See This E.Manning/NYG Fraud Story?

[MattyC]

This is pretty pathetic on the part of Giants players and their cohorts-- IF TRUE, of course. Would not get any lamer than a celebrity, multi-millionaire QB defrauding fans.

http://nypost.com/2014/01/30/eli-and-giants-created-fake-memorabilia-suit/

[base_ball]

There's a lot going on here and I won't comment until reading the actual lawsuit...but I will say this: you have to have a screw loose to buy so-called "game-used" memorabilia, no matter the source.

[calvindog]

There's a lot going on here and I won't comment until reading the actual lawsuit...but I will say this: you have to have a screw loose to buy so-called "game-used" memorabilia, no matter the source.

Agree, agree, agree x1,000,000.

[Rich Klein]

I read that article this morning and forwarded that to my editor at Sports Collectors Daily

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

There's a lot going on here and I won't comment until reading the actual lawsuit...but I will say this: you have to have a screw loose to buy so-called "game-used" memorabilia, no matter the source.

I don't comment much on this forum, but I found the article above to be quite amusing to me personally for the following reason/situation:

Back in 2008, I won an NFL Auctions listing for a 2007 Jets (Titans) throwback jersey documented to have been "game-worn" by a close friend of mine. Upon receiving the jersey, I figured I'd either give it back to my buddy or have him autograph it as a personal keepsake for myself, later in life. Needless to say, when I showed him the jersey, he laughed...Proper size? Yes. Proper game-time alterations? NO. According to his account, he'd already snagged the real game jersey from the Jets organization. He still signed my momento, and that jersey, whatever it represents, has been stashed in a closet ever since I had it autographed at the time. No big money changed hands, and the matter was not worth pursuing further then...Funny to see these more serious accusations years later.

edited to add: At the time, NFL Auctions was an extension of the nfl.com official website. I don't know if they still offer items for sale/auction to the general public, but related COA's were on official team stationary.

[ullmandds]

There's a lot going on here and I won't comment until reading the actual lawsuit...but I will say this: you have to have a screw loose to buy so-called "game-used" memorabilia, no matter the source.

Yes...Agree 100%...it seems a large % of the sports collectibles population has screws loose then!

[MattyC]

Perhaps Eli's guilt over this can explain his unfocused play this year and all those picks he threw, lol. Man they were tough to watch.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I hope this is not true. If it is I will be most disappointed that he did this because he did not need the $.

[Big Six]

Will be interesting to see the fallout if this is true, especially for Steiner! Sounds like the kind of stuff that could put them out of business overnight...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[drcy]

...

[yanks12025]

There's a lot going on here and I won't comment until reading the actual lawsuit...but I will say this: you have to have a screw loose to buy so-called "game-used" memorabilia, no matter the source.

To say the people who collect game used have screws loose I think is pretty stupid. There's fraud in all parts of this hobby. And just like any hobby it's called do your own research and not depend on others.

[MattyC]

No opinion or insight on the claims, but what is interesting is comparatively small time dealers have recently been sentenced to prison for selling faked game used worth a lot less than a Manning Super Bowl helmet. Makes you wonder how a multi-millinaire star quarterback would be treated legally if he was the culprit.

I, too, am curious to see how the media handles their, "Aw shucks," boy scout darling as this plays out.

Of course, first and foremost it's about the veracity of the claims. But IF this ever turns out to be true, any guilty stars should be held accountable, and not shielded by hitherto sterling reputations, or PR-crisis machines, or media who think a memorabilia fraud is not a big deal story-- as, say, compared to trash talking post-game tirades that become national front page news.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

As a disclaimer, I am neither a lawyer nor watch Law & Order. Though the guy at the end of my block is a lawyer and my nextdoor neighbor is an optometrist.

Sounds authoritative enough for me

[drcy]

...

[drcy]

,,,

[oldjudge]

As someone who at one time collected "game worn" football jerseys, I have to agree that it is crazy to collect them. Add to the list collecting autographs, and other game used equipment. Unless you see the player sign it (tough for old timers) or see the player take off the equipment and hand it to you, there is a decent chance the item is fake.

[ullmandds]

I wouldn't be sad if Steiner went out of business...personally. I mean they sell "dirt" from yankee stadium for a ridiculous amount of $$$$!

[gnaz01]

Unless you see the player sign it (tough for old timers) or see the player take off the equipment and hand it to you, there is a decent chance the item is fake.

You mean like this??? (Sorry couldn't resist :))

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xffOCZYX6F8?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[calvindog]

As someone who at one time collected "game worn" football jerseys, I have to agree that it is crazy to collect them. Add to the list collecting autographs, and other game used equipment. Unless you see the player sign it (tough for old timers) or see the player take off the equipment and hand it to you, there is a decent chance the item is fake.

I think this is the painful, honest truth. If you didn't collect it yourself, you very well may be throwing your money away.

[calvindog]

I wouldn't be sad if Steiner went out of business...personally. I mean they sell "dirt" from yankee stadium for a ridiculous amount of $$$$!

That's quality dirt, son.

[ullmandds]

I wonder how much that Mean Joe jersey has sold for at auction in the past?

[drcy]

....

[MattyC]

Just when I was admiring the game used bats at HA and Goldin in complete awe. I mean-- that SHOELESS JOE BAT? If authentic, what a monstrously impressive piece.

[4815162342]

I wouldn't be sad if Steiner went out of business...personally. I mean they sell "dirt" from yankee stadium for a ridiculous amount of $$$$!
That's not just any Yankee stadium dirt, that's DJ3K game-used dirt.

That's quality dirt, son.
I'll never forget the interview you did with Steiner about that. Classic!

[ullmandds]

while it may have been "quality" dirt...it probably wasn't even yankee stadium dirt!

[kkkkandp]

while it may have been "quality" dirt...it probably wasn't even yankee stadium dirt!

Would it still count as "Yankee Stadium Dirt" if the NY DPW swept it up from East 161st St? :D

[drcy]

...

[calvindog]

I'll never forget the interview you did with Steiner about that. Classic!

That was a funny one. Brandon was pretty cool even when I teased him about the dirt. Very straight-forward and had a sense of humor.

[Pat R]

How credible is an accusation coming from a guy who was indicted for
memorabilia fraud for selling bogus jerseys and then says he knew they
were churning out fakes but thought his were legit because of his
close relationship with the team?

[iwantitiwinit]

That sale was the best completion he had all year.

[drcy]

....

[MattyC]

That sale was the best completion he had all year.

Well played, sir.

[base_ball]

The civil suit is now available to download at the bottom of the NY Post piece. Or here: http://www.scribd.com/document_downloads/203417416?extension=pdf&from=embed&source=embed

[drcy]

....

[Runscott]

The Eli story doesn't make much sense. I can see others in the organization asking him to create fakes, and maybe they have some pull to get him to do it, but he personally can't ever sell the originals, as fake versions have now already been sold, and as others have pointed out - he shouldn't need the money.

I don't collect game-used, but I did buy a football that was fumbled by Walter Payton and recovered by a Falcons player. I had to give it a lot of thought - "Is it real?" I don't know. I think it is, but I could be wrong - wouldn't this ball be extremely important to Tony Casillas? He saved it for almost 30 years, so you would think so. Why would he sell it for only a $200 or so? Is he that broke?

I don't agree that buyers of such items are throwing their money away - it all comes down to how much they believe the item is real. If they believe it, then it might as well be real - but that's what forgers are counting on. If the buyer decides later that they don't believe it, they can still sell to someone who does. But if we know this is going on, we are certainly perpetuating it by purchasing items that we know have a strong chance of being fake, especially if it's for resale.

[JEFFV96MASTERS]

Post/opinion no longer available

[D. Bergin]

I would think it's probably some Giant exec in charge of creating ancillary revenue streams for the team, mainly responsible for this. Pushing as much stuff through Steiner as possible, while putting the requisite pressure on the Equipment department of the team...................who will most likely be the fall guys.

I doubt Eli ever thought twice about any of this crap going on.

[D. Bergin]

Rocky Marciano gave out untold numbers of gloves from his title fights over the years. Doubtfully any of them were actually legit.

[MattyC]

Just to clarify, the allegation is not that Eli wanted to make fakes for sale/profit, but that he wanted to keep the originals for his own personal collection.

[Runscott]

Just to clarify, the allegation is not that Eli wanted to make fakes for sale/profit, but that he wanted to keep the originals for his own personal collection.

If someone talked him into making fakes, regardless of his personal motivation to do so, that's real close to "wanting to make fakes for sale/profit". For legal purposes, it's probably the same.

[sportzjunky]

FBI Press release "Operation Team player"...
seems its an NFL issue just as much as NY & Eli.

http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1401/140130newyork.htm

[Rich Klein]

The follow up in the Post today was just as interesting

http://nypost.com/2014/01/31/collector-fears-eli-cheated-him-with-fake-8500-rookie-helmet/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=NYP%20180%20Day%20Openers%20and%2030%20Da y%20Signups&utm_campaign=NY%2520Post%2520Newsletter

Read the last sentence carefully

[Tabe]

FBI Press release "Operation Team player"...
seems its an NFL issue just as much as NY & Eli.

http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1401/140130newyork.htm

That's the annual "the NFL and FBI bust fake jersey sellers the week of the Super Bowl" story. Happens every single year and nothing ever changes. One visit to Ebay and a search for any star player will show you that 95% of the merchandise out there is fake. Heck, a few years ago I got a Christmas catalog from Ebay touting the low prices of various items - and it featured a fake NFL jersey right on the cover. The story in question isn't related to fake game-used memorabilia but fake merchandise for fans and the like. It's the $39 "authentic" jerseys from China.

[bn2cardz]

Will be interesting to see the fallout if this is true, especially for Steiner! Sounds like the kind of stuff that could put them out of business overnight...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It doesn't have to be true, the story just has to get enough traction prior to being proven false for there to be a huge fallout on Steiner.

[doug.goodman]

Just to clarify, the allegation is not that Eli wanted to make fakes for sale/profit, but that he wanted to keep the originals for his own personal collection.

Sounds like the same thing to me.

Doug

[drcy]

,,,

[JasonL]

[QUOTE=Big Six;1234203]Will be interesting to see the fallout if this is true, especially for Steiner! Sounds like the kind of stuff that could put them out of business overnight...


And wouldn't THAT be a shame! :D:D:p

[RichardSimon]

[QUOTE=Big Six;1234203]Will be interesting to see the fallout if this is true, especially for Steiner! Sounds like the kind of stuff that could put them out of business overnight...


And wouldn't THAT be a shame! :D:D:p

Would that mean no more chances to buy Joe Schlabatnik's (sp) autographed rookie photo for $395??? :D:D.

[4815162342]

[QUOTE=JasonL;1234901]

Would that mean no more chances to buy Joe Schlabatnik's (sp) autographed rookie photo for $395??? :D:D.

130919130920

[Blitzu]

That's the annual "the NFL and FBI bust fake jersey sellers the week of the Super Bowl" story. Happens every single year and nothing ever changes. One visit to Ebay and a search for any star player will show you that 95% of the merchandise out there is fake. Heck, a few years ago I got a Christmas catalog from Ebay touting the low prices of various items - and it featured a fake NFL jersey right on the cover. The story in question isn't related to fake game-used memorabilia but fake merchandise for fans and the like. It's the $39 "authentic" jerseys from China.

Not FBI- HSI, homeland security investigations. We're a completely different agency with border search authority. I worked at the O'Hare mail unit during the last Super Bowl picking off *thousands* of fake jerseys that could easily be sold off as authentic jerseys from China.

They come in year round but always pick up right before certain major events.

[Deertick]

Just to clarify, the allegation is not that Eli wanted to make fakes for sale/profit, but that he wanted to keep the originals for his own personal collection.

That is Deadspin's take. If you read the document, it is pretty clear that they were used to fulfill contractual obligations to Steiner. Maybe not all, but at least several specific items were mentioned.

[Runscott]

That is Deadspin's take. If you read the document, it is pretty clear that they were used to fulfill contractual obligations to Steiner. Maybe not all, but at least several specific items were mentioned.

Have there been any documented examples of a player keeping items and then later deciding to sell some of them, and the 'fakes' then coming back to haunt everyone? This just doesn't make sense for Eli to do.

Go Hawks.

[pariah1107]

Have there been any documented examples of a player keeping items and then later deciding to sell some of them, and the 'fakes' then coming back to haunt everyone? This just doesn't make sense for Eli to do.

Go Hawks.

While not a purposeful attempt to defraud, I always found this story about the baseball bat Roberto Clemente used on his 3,000th hit to be interesting. Three different bats?

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Roberto-Clemente-bat/enduring-mystery-roberto-clemente-bat

Go Hawks!

[Runscott]

While not a purposeful attempt to defraud, I always found this story about the baseball bat Roberto Clemente used on his 3,000th hit to be interesting. Three different bats?

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Roberto-Clemente-bat/enduring-mystery-roberto-clemente-bat

Go Hawks!

Ty, that was a great read - thanks for posting!

I remember when a Nap Rucker no-hitter ball came up for auction. I went through some really weird scenarios in my head, as to how it could be an incorrect ball. In the end, I didn't bid, and the provenance was as good as you could possibly hope for. Lots of weird stuff happens.

Go Hawks

[Tabe]

Not FBI- HSI, homeland security investigations. We're a completely different agency with border search authority. I worked at the O'Hare mail unit during the last Super Bowl picking off *thousands* of fake jerseys that could easily be sold off as authentic jerseys from China.

They come in year round but always pick up right before certain major events.

Apologies for the confusion but... same idea :). There's one of these big counterfeit busts every single year at the Super Bowl.

[Blitzu]

Apologies for the confusion but... same idea :). There's one of these big counterfeit busts every single year at the Super Bowl.

We get touchy when the FBI steals our press :D :D

[drcy]

...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Have there been any documented examples of a player keeping items and then later deciding to sell some of them, and the 'fakes' then coming back to haunt everyone? This just doesn't make sense for Eli to do.

One possible explanation is that players have been known to wear several jerseys during the same game so that they can sell multiples of that item "game used".

[prestigecollectibles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YFtIeIIHcE

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Not FBI- HSI, homeland security investigations. We're a completely different agency with border search authority. I worked at the O'Hare mail unit during the last Super Bowl picking off *thousands* of fake jerseys that could easily be sold off as authentic jerseys from China.

They come in year round but always pick up right before certain major events.

I have never heard of anyone in the Homeland Security field refer to it as HSI.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I have never heard of anyone in the Homeland Security field refer to it as HSI.

I just googled HSI and it makes sense now - it's part of ICE.

[ullmandds]

Another good Keith O piece...I like that he brings these scoops to the mainstream.

On another note I've never been attracted to the memorabilia, autograph, game used side of this hobby. I have pieces I've obtained throughout my life...mostly as a child that I know are real because I was there...but I couldn't imagine taking someone's word that a jersey, autograph or whatever is what they say...because this world is full of crooks...and it's way too easy to fake this stuff.

Someone posted a remark that he felt that today...if someone really wanted to fake vintage, pre WW cards...he unequivocally felt this could be done...and noone would know. I don't believe this...in my brain it is not possible even with the technology we have at out disposal to make absolute replicas of these old cards...but all of this other stuff...absolutely!!!!

[Blitzu]

I just googled HSI and it makes sense now - it's part of ICE.

Yes, we are under ICE, and were originally titled as ICE Special Agents, but over the last two years we have made a push to separate ourselves from ICE. We changed our badges, credentials, jackets and all other branding logo's to get rid of ICE from our name to HSI. The agency wants to make a push to show that we do much more than traditional immigration and custom related investigations. Seeing also that most of the negative press of "ICE Agents" raiding villages and separating families was from the poorly named title for the junior enforcement agents as "Immigration Enforcement Agents", who also called themselves ICE Agents for short, and our investigations division- which is totally separate from the Immigration enforcement division- were titled ICE Special Agents, and also commonly also referred to as ICE Agents. It led to a lot of bad press and false correlations that was taking away from the good the investigative agents were doing as the main investigative branch of DHS.

Therefore, we made a push to try and separate all entirely from ICE. It didn't work all that well, and instead we changed our division name from Office of Investigations, to Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). They also changed all our badges and credentials to re-title us HSI Special Agents and pulled ICE from everything.

Not that this is applicable at all to the thread discussion, but it might seem interesting to one or two of you. :)

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Yes, we are under ICE, and were originally titled as ICE Special Agents, but over the last two years we have made a push to separate ourselves from ICE. We changed our badges, credentials, jackets and all other branding logo's to get rid of ICE from our name to HSI. The agency wants to make a push to show that we do much more than traditional immigration and custom related investigations. Seeing also that most of the negative press of "ICE Agents" raiding villages and separating families was from the poorly named title for the junior enforcement agents as "Immigration Enforcement Agents", who also called themselves ICE Agents for short, and our investigations division- which is totally separate from the Immigration enforcement division- were titled ICE Special Agents, and also commonly also referred to as ICE Agents. It led to a lot of bad press and false correlations that was taking away from the good the investigative agents were doing as the main investigative branch of DHS.

Therefore, we made a push to try and separate all entirely from ICE. It didn't work all that well, and instead we changed our division name from Office of Investigations, to Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). They also changed all our badges and credentials to re-title us HSI Special Agents and pulled ICE from everything.

Not that this is applicable at all to the thread discussion, but it might seem interesting to one or two of you. :)

Thanks for the info. I was in the Homeland Security Studies program at Tulane so I find it pretty interesting.

[drcy]

...

[Runscott]

Now, if someone wanted to make a brand new and previously unknown issue using the old printing technology or if they had the original printing plates, that would be a different situation.

Yes, and if they could create the technology in 1909, then, even though it's been abandoned now, it could certainly be created today. The problem is still what shows up under the microscope - there is not pattern to lithography, especially the intricate stuff they created in the late 1800's. They even had special jobs for 'painters' (wrong term I'm sure) who created all those beautiful but not predictable, dot patterns in the backgrounds.

From my meager knowledge of the process, it seems like re-creating these lithographs would be similar to forging a painting. I think you could do it, and even come up with, for example, a copy of a T206 Wagner that at first (or even second) glance would be almost exact, but if you looked at specific areas under a magnifier and compared, the forgery would be immediately noticed. But...plastic slabs could take care of that. Get it slabbed and it's probably safe from detection.

[drcy]

...

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Even if someone had the original printing plates, it would still be hard to make a passable T206 Honus Wagner counterfeit, even at the eye level. You still need card stock, aging, machine cut, inks, the correct look and printing skills. As Yogi Berra said, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Or as I say, "Anyone can write a novel. It's writing a good one that's hard."

I don't think the card stock would be the problem. I think that aging the front would. I bet you could find a way to scrub the front of a legit T206 with a proper back.

***I am not advocating counterfeiting but just saying it is possible.

[drcy]

...

[steve B]

Yes, and if they could create the technology in 1909, then, even though it's been abandoned now, it could certainly be created today. The problem is still what shows up under the microscope - there is not pattern to lithography, especially the intricate stuff they created in the late 1800's. They even had special jobs for 'painters' (wrong term I'm sure) who created all those beautiful but not predictable, dot patterns in the backgrounds.

From my meager knowledge of the process, it seems like re-creating these lithographs would be similar to forging a painting. I think you could do it, and even come up with, for example, a copy of a T206 Wagner that at first (or even second) glance would be almost exact, but if you looked at specific areas under a magnifier and compared, the forgery would be immediately noticed. But...plastic slabs could take care of that. Get it slabbed and it's probably safe from detection.


It's never been abandoned. The traditional methods are still used by artists, and while the details of the process have changed a bit the underlying process is unchanged. Recreating a card from the era would still be a challenge to get the materials just right, but I don't think it's impossible.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

How about this gem from the NYP article:

"A former Steiner Sports employee said Thursday that staffers of the memorabilia seller suspected that not all of the “game-used” gear was real. “Specifically, from Eli we would see it and say, ‘Come on, this is not ‘game used,’ ” the source said."

Yikes!

This reminds me of the Hillerich & Bradsby case I handled some years ago involving the Joe D. streak bat. Tommy Henrich vouched for the bat but questions popped up as to the details. Also reminds me of the controversy a few years ago about Don Larsen's uni from the perfect game. I hear stories all the time of how dear ol' granddad got someone's signature only to have it turn out to be secretarial or forged.

[Runscott]

Yes, and if honest mistakes can occur, like the three Clemente bats, then certainly when people are trying to pull the wool over our eyes, they should be having some success.

...but all my stuff is real because I'm special.

[the 'stache]

This has not been the best of weeks for the Manning family.

[Gary Dunaier]

while it may have been "quality" dirt...it probably wasn't even yankee stadium dirt!

Would it still count as "Yankee Stadium Dirt" if the NY DPW swept it up from East 161st St? :D

Oh, that's beautiful. Fake dirt from a fake phony fraud counterfeit artificial stadium without a soul that was built on parkland stolen from the neighborhood. I love it!