Gilbert and Bacon cards

[TNcollect]

I am a new member-- Scott from TN. I am a photo collector and periodically come across baseball related photographs.

I am interested in tracking down photographs of all of the Gilbert & Bacon cards that were made in the cabinet card version.

Online searches show 32 cards in the set, but I haven't found a link that shows them all.

Additionally, I understand that the N172 set includes photos of players done by Gilbert & Bacon as well.

I am trying to do a comparison with a photograph of an Athletics player.

Thanks.

Scott

[barrysloate]

Can you post the image you are looking at?

[TNcollect]

Can you post the image you are looking at?

Certainly:

[barrysloate]

Hey Scott- I believe it's Bobby Mathews. Great image!

Actually, did you want to know who it is, or are you looking for something else?

[TNcollect]

Thanks much Barry!

Was this photograph shown in any of the sets (G&B or N172)?

Also the bat shows "Louisville KY", straight line not in an arched emblem-- does that help to date the bat/ photo itself?

Thanks again.

Scott

[barrysloate]

Scott- there are three Old Judge poses of Mathews, but none match the Gilbert and Bacon. It's possible the image was used on a Kalamazoo Bats card, although I can't recall if Mathews was even in that set. Finally, my understanding is Gilbert and Bacon cabinets were issued in 1888. Others on the board may know more about them than I do.

And I forgot to welcome you to Net54. That was a substantial first post.

[TNcollect]

Here is a close up that shows the bat with "Louisville, KY" visible.

Does this help to date the bat?

Scott

[barrysloate]

I don't know bats, so somebody else needs to chime in.

[Jeffrompa]

The Kalamazoo Bats is of him pitching .

[TNcollect]

Thanks Jeff-- so you agree that it is Mathews as well?

I appreciate the input.

Scott

[Jeffrompa]

Yes it is him . Wish I could say I owned the card .

[TNcollect]

Jeff-- Thanks for taking the time to look and comment on the photograph.

Scott

[aaroncc]

Gilbert & Bacon reached a partnership in 1875. Gilbert retired in 1886 so there is your range C. 1875-1886.

[TNcollect]

Gilbert & Bacon reached a partnership in 1875. Gilbert retired in 1886 so there is your range C. 1875-1886.

Thanks-- this image is NOT marked by Gilbert & Bacon.

The backdrop is the SAME as used by Gilbert & Bacon on their cabinet cards (1887/ 1888).

Scott

[oldjudge]

Looks like something from the Vermont find. My guess is that it is not period.

[TNcollect]

Looks like something from the Vermont find. My guess is that it is not period.

Thank you very much oldjudge-- I am not familiar with the "Vermont find" and would appreciate whatever information you can share on it.

Scott

[andybecker]

Gilbert & Bacon reached a partnership in 1875. Gilbert retired in 1886 so there is your range C. 1875-1886.

is it possible gilbert and bacon produced items later than 86? i have a football cabinet that would shock me if it was pre-90.....actually i thought it was mid 90's. i could be wrong.....i'll scan it if anyone wants a look.....

[Joe_G.]

Yes, the Gilbert & Bacon studio was in business well beyond 1886, operating at several different addresses which can help you zero in on a date.

As for the image of Mathews in this thread, it is interesting that he is wearing a different belt and posed in front of a different back drop than found on his 1888 Old Judge cards. So it is likely a different photo-shoot that may or may not be from 1888 although I do believe the original photo could be from Gilbert & Bacon. The same, or similar bat was used by teammates that were photographed in 1888 (same "Louisville KY" inscription). I suspect this particular negative was never sent to Goodwin & Co. for possible use in making his cards (based on it being a separate photo shoot).

[TNcollect]

Thanks Joe, so you think it is of the period?

I took oldjudge's comment to mean a modern item. Are you familiar with the "vermont find" referred to in the earlier posting?

Scott

[Joe_G.]

Thanks Joe, so you think it is of the period?

I took oldjudge's comment to mean a modern item. Are you familiar with the "vermont find" referred to in the earlier posting?

Scott

It does have the appearance of being a more modern print, but the original negative this is based on dates to 1888 or earlier. As you likely know, Mathews retired before the start of the 1888 season, but I suspect he was with the team for their 1888 photo shoot in the spring of 1888.

[TNcollect]

So you have seen this view before? I thought from earlier posts that it may be an "unknown photo".

Any info on vermont find?

Thanks again.

Scott

[Joe_G.]

So you have seen this view before? I thought from earlier posts that it may be an "unknown photo".

Any info on vermont find?

Thanks again.

Scott

The Vermont find included original glass plate negatives that were used by Goodwin & Co. together with more modern prints (the prints/photos believed to be post 1900, but made from the original circa 1888 negatives). Some of the Vermont find photos were created from negatives that are still with us today while others were created from negatives that have been long lost to time. I do not know if your photo came from this find but it is certainly possible. Your pose of Mathews is new to me.

[oldjudge]

Joe--I have seen other "unissued" Mathews images from the Vermont find. I don't remember if this was one of the ones I saw, but I would think it is a likely source.

[barrysloate]

Hey Scott- when I first saw your scanned image I assumed you cropped the photo portion from a Gilbert and Bacon cabinet. It didn't cross my mind that it was not an original G & B. As such, I agree it is not a period photo. Sorry I didn't realize that.

[kkkkandp]

Here's a Gilbert & Bacon cabinet that was the source of one of Gus Weyhing's Old Judge cards...

[aaroncc]

Looks like they used Gilbert & Bacon on the mounts after Gilbert retired in 1886. Some info on this site: http://broadway.cas.sc.edu/content/studio-gilbert-and-bacon

I have had a few G & B boxing cabinets and was able to estimate the date on one in particular of Arthur Chambers. Based on the photo of his left hand. His middle finger was amputated in 1877. As well as the studio addresses etc...

[TNcollect]

The Vermont find included original glass plate negatives that were used by Goodwin & Co. together with more modern prints (the prints/photos believed to be post 1900, but made from the original circa 1888 negatives). Some of the Vermont find photos were created from negatives that are still with us today while others were created from negatives that have been long lost to time. I do not know if your photo came from this find but it is certainly possible. Your pose of Mathews is new to me.

Thanks Joe and others. Were there any tintypes in the Vermont group?

This image is a tintype not a paper print.

I am a photo collector and would expect it to be a mirror image as is typically encountered with tintypes. However, some photographers used a reversing prism or mirror to get a "correct view"-- which would have been more important with lettering.

The possibility also exists that one of the Vermont negatives was printed reverse and then copied with the tintype process. In my experience copy images are rarely anywhere remotely as clear and crisp as the original and I wouldn't expect to see the bat details if it were done this way.

Thanks again for all of the input and any other thoughts, ideas or suggestions.

Scott

[TNcollect]

Any thoughts or ideas since the photograph is a tintype?

Also, does anyone know a source to see the other Mathews photographs that show him batting?

Thanks.

Scott

[z28jd]

It does have the appearance of being a more modern print, but the original negative this is based on dates to 1888 or earlier. As you likely know, Mathews retired before the start of the 1888 season, but I suspect he was with the team for their 1888 photo shoot in the spring of 1888.

Mathews was with the Athletics during the 1888 season as a coach and even played exhibition games prior to and during the season

[TNcollect]

Thanks z28jd-- the information is appreciated.

Do you have any information on views of Mathews that show him batting?

Thanks again.

Scott