baseball's falling popularity and its affect on our hobby

[honus94566]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10354114/harris-poll-nfl-most-popular-mlb-2nd

I realize this has been discussed before ad nauseum... but I saw this article this morning and thought the stats were interesting:

"Nine percent fewer fans call baseball their favorite sport over the 30-year span, the biggest drop of any sport."

It'll be interesting to see if, as the years continue to pass, if MLB is able to regain any market share or if popularity will continue to wane.

This can't be good news as far as "demand" for baseball cards, even vintage, goes. I'm OK with it though. Cheaper prices just mean I'll be able to afford more cards.

[JasonL]

one of those endless debates since there is no easy to obtain correct answer.
Everything runs in cycles...baseball had the top spot until the early 1980s and then it was replaced by basketball and now it's football. I seriously doubt that hockey will be next, but at some point, cultural preferences may very well return to baseball...but pretty tuff to say when,...

[z28jd]

I think the problem with comparing baseball and football is that their seasons barely overlap, so you're almost never forced to pick one over the other. Also, the % may go down, but the population during that time has risen from 237mil to 316mil so you're taking from a much large group.

The key numbers are the revenue and they set a record last year with over $8 billion, up from $7.5 B the year before and $7 B in 2011, so there is a steady growth.

Attendance in 2013 was just under the all-time high and the ten best years ever for attendance all happened in the last ten years.

Minor league baseball has been just as strong, with nine straight years over 41 million fans and they don't even include attendance from any of the rookie league teams(GCL/AZL/VSL/DSL).

[MyGuyTy]

Tough to predict where this hobby is headed, however I will say one thing, it's a pretty safe bet that 25-30 years from now when this new generation is the driving force behind our economy nobody will be forking over $10,000 for a simple drum T206 card or "ghost" or "printing error". Guys that are in their late 30's to early 50's right now, who are the ones driving the prices, will either be retired and on a budget or dead. Baseball card "collecting" as a hobby is completely non-existent with today's kids. These are same kids who won't give a crap about collecting "vintage" cards 25-30 years from now and certainly won't be paying 10's of thousands of dollars for them.

You wanna know what will be the hot "collector" items of the next generation bringing ridiculous prices? Vintage video game consoles and 90's era Japanese sports cars. Just like we grew up with the hot item being baseball cards, those items that I mentioned will be what kids "collect" when they hit their 30's.

[EvilKing00]

Although im a HUGE football fan, If I had to choose my favorite, it would be baseball.

Football is extremely popular, and will probably continue to be the #1 sport in the US, due to many reasons. Beside it being a great sport, they have all the degenerate gamblers watching. Some guys I know barely know whos on what team, but they always know the spread.

Its also a lot less time consuming, not talking about the length of a game, but rather, there are only 16 games, Usually on a sunday when most people are off work.

As far as the hobby. Well, I don't know too many people who collect football cards, or at least more football than baseball. As for me, I have 3 football cards, Jerry Rice rookie, Payton Manning Rookie and emit smith rookie. As for baseball cards I have no clue how many I have many thousand would be my best guess.

[Gobucsmagic74]

I hardly ever watch baseball and am a completely casual fan of today's game, yet I love collecting baseball cards...particularly vintage cards. Yesterdays stars are iconic and in my mind largely unrelated to modern baseball. Whether our hobby will prosper or decline over the next couple generations is definitely debatable but I think it will more related to the decline of individuals collecting cards than a decline in the interest in modern baseball.

I think the iconic names in the hobby will probably persevere to a great extent, but will the next generation collector have the interest, and maybe more importantly the patience, to obtain T206 commons to try and complete the set?

[CW]

I think the problem with comparing baseball and football is that their seasons barely overlap, so you're almost never forced to pick one over the other. Also, the % may go down, but the population during that time has risen from 237mil to 316mil so you're taking from a much large group.

The key numbers are the revenue and they set a record last year with over $8 billion, up from $7.5 B the year before and $7 B in 2011, so there is a steady growth.

Attendance in 2013 was just under the all-time high and the ten best years ever for attendance all happened in the last ten years.

Minor league baseball has been just as strong, with nine straight years over 41 million fans and they don't even include attendance from any of the rookie league teams(GCL/AZL/VSL/DSL).

All good points. Adding to that, baseball as a global sport is also growing. Here in America we naturally tend to think we're the center of the universe, but baseball is very popular in other countries.

Now, how that affects our hobby is uncertain, as I don't think you'll find too many thirtysomethings in third world countries buying up Mickey Mantle rookie cards, unfortunately.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I am a HUGE Minnesota Vikings fan. My collection of Vikings memorabilia is much more significant than my baseball collection. That being said I find myself moving more towards baseball as I get older.

I think this is in part because I see football players my age, 27, already breaking down. Furthermore, the research about concussions has taken away some of the luster for me. I find myself asking if I would my kids to play football and I don't know. On the other hand I can see myself sharing baseball with them. It is an easy game to understand, the games are cheaper than the NFL and there is nothing quite like a game of catch.

As a collector I am more drawn to baseball because of the deep history of the hobby. It is cool to look at cards that are over 100 years old. It amazes me how much the game has stayed the same over the years. I think football will not be the same game in 20 years. However, I am not sure baseball will be either.

[wonkaticket]

Tough to predict where this hobby is headed, however I will say one thing, it's a pretty safe bet that 25-30 years from now when this new generation is the driving force behind our economy nobody will be forking over $10,000 for a simple drum T206 card or "ghost" or "printing error".

Really? I think the same thing was said 20+ years ago about the same cards just with different prices. :)

The thing I think people forget on pre-war is a lot of people who collect this niche are doing so for varied reasons. Many of which are scholarly and collection checklist driven not so much die hard baseball fans. How many of us remember seeing the pre-war players play or are reliving our youth thru pre-war cards? I myself don't even follow modern sports.

There have always been collectors, there will always be collectors. Because of this collectors will accumulate collections and in doing so will want to obtain scarce, tough and even rare items for said collections and extreme prices will be paid in the process.

To announce that 25 years from now nobody will value rarities or scarce items is a silly concept. In terms of the mentioned examples T206 “Ghosts” and scarcer advertising backs. I agree the printing errors have certainly taken a new life from say 20 years ago.

I chalk this up to even more people today collecting this particular set wanting to own something unique. I also chalk it up to folks who have gone as far as they can with the T206 and are running out of things to collect. Meaning they have the set, they have the backs now they need something else to fill the void. When you add in a limited supply of printing errors to this mix of people you see today’s prices. This is a very good thing means there is a healthy amount of collectors on this issue.

In regards to the T206 scarcer brand backs they have always been more expensive or at least for the past 30+ years. Have prices jumped to more dramatic levels? Yes but once again more people and a limited supply along with a few key players and you have your prices. Could prices drop sure but they will drop to an all-time new hobby avg. Example not long ago you could get a Drum for say $1500 and that wasn’t long ago say 5-6 years ago. Even if they drop from 10k for the same card now they will drop to a higher number than ever before due to new historical prices being set within the collecting market. That’s just the nature of any hobby.

To answer the OP’s question I don’t think baseballs popularity will play a huge role in killing the niche we live in. However it will and has affected the modern market which is a gateway often to our niche and overtime could slim down new arrivals but that will take time.

We do have nostalgia on our side. No matter how boring modern baseball gets people will always look fondly upon the romantic version of our Nation’s past and look to own a part of that past.

Cheers,

John

[Cardboard Junkie]

Tulip Bulbs

[ValKehl]

I pretty much agree with everything Wonka John said. As I see it, our hobby will flourish as long as there are both lotsa baseball enthusiasts and lotsa people born with the "collector gene" - in other words, a very long time!
Val

[mrvster]

Wonka ! That was perfectly stated!

Exactly what Mr. Wonka said......:)

I completely disagree with MyguyTy(sorry in all due respect:o)......

[MyGuyTy]

Really? I think the same thing was said 20+ years ago about the same cards just with different prices. :)

That's my whole point......20 years ago the hobby of baseball card collecting was enormous! Every kid was collecting, and those kids back then are in their 30's and 40's today diving up prices. Like I said, kids today who WILL be the ones with all the disposable income in 30 years won't be looking at the hobby like you or I am RIGHT NOW because this hobby of collecting and for the most part baseball in general is not what interests kids in the teens and early 20's.

The problem right now is simple, those of us today in our late 30's to early 50's (me included) with the money to overpay, don't wanna hear that our $10,000 overbid for a simple T206 Drum or Uzit or "Ghost" or "Freak" or "Misprint" or what ever cool name we wanna come up with, will not be worth ANYWHERE near what we're paying now in 25-30 years. I always try to be smart and look ahead to the future of my money, but sometimes a card I "need" for my collection makes me lose focus of the bigger picture, lol. This is very much chess not checkers with the future of this hobby. It truly is a niche hobby, and "niche" hobbies are the first to expire when the new generation doesn't have any interest what so ever with this "niche". I have 3 sons spread out over different grades up to 8th grade...........and not a single kid I've ever come across at their schools has any interest in collecting baseball cards. I asked all 3 of my sons and they've told me nobody is school collects baseball cards anymore. Go into any Target or Wally World and try to find baseball cards....they're all sitting on a small shelf in a small distant area of the store collecting dust. That's the future of this hobby.

[MyGuyTy]

Wonka ! That was perfectly stated!

Exactly what Mr. Wonka said......:)

I completely disagree with MyguyTy(sorry in all due respect:o)......

No disrespect at all, it's your opinion, you can disagree any time. However statistics among today's youth show what I've been saying. I would be an optimist too if I had hundreds of thousands in vintage cards in a collection hoping to recoup the money when I'm at retirement age. However smart money is on the opposite unfortunately.

[z28jd]

There are some segments of this hobby, where it takes just two people to drive prices crazy, so it is impossible to guess future prices and what will be popular. I've seen prices of certain teams in the Old Judge set take off because a couple people both decided they wanted them at the same time and I've seen other teams level off/drop when one people decided to stop collecting and sell their cards.

If some multi-millionaire decides tomorrow he wants every T206 with an EPDG back, then the market will take off on them. You can't predict down the line if that will happen or not.

[MyGuyTy]

You can't predict down the line if that will happen or not.

We used to think the same thing about weather....

What multi millionaires find interesting today most likely won't be same things multi millionaires in 30 years find interesting. Just like in the 40's to the 70's, high end vintage baseball card "collectors" were few and far between, which explains why nobody was paying silly prices for old cardboard. The 80's came and a new generation was born. 30 years from now a whole new generation of uninterested baseball/baseball card people will be the overwhelming majority.

[wonkaticket]

Sorry “MyGuyTy” but I disagree. It also has nothing to do with what I may or may not have overpaid for either as there are anomalies in every hobby. Every collector has items he has too much in that’s called collecting.

My point above is that 20 years ago records were set and folks said that is silly, then 10 years ago folks said that is silly, then 5 years ago….and so on and so on…..

As I said above this hobby is not driven by modern shiny trading card business. That business is dead and dying even the retail space dedicated to such is being cut. Yet our hobby is having record highs and growth, am I to believe this is all driven by 50 year old men with cash to burn? No there is young blood in this hobby I’m 38 not young but not a baby boomer. There are even younger collectors here spending big money.

This whole nobody collects cards at high school so we are all doomed is just silly. Art and music programs are almost dead in schools also but we still have fine art collecting and rock stars. Just because it’s not a Leave it to Beaver episode on every corner in America and kids aren’t out playing stick ball by the fire hydrants and flipping cards against the walls does not mean our hobby is dead. The pre-war section has had very little drive from the baby boomers looking to relive what mom tossed out.

If anything the hobby has become more sophisticated and because of the digital age we live in even more obscure avenues of card collecting have emerged, and even more people can be exposed to the hobby.

Cheers,

John

Edited to add “MyTyGuy” your view of the people who drive our hobby is very narrow not everyone who collects any type of antiques has to have started that journey as a kid, nor do they have to have an affinity for the subject matter they collect either. Also the hobby is not driven solely by multi-millionaires either. Not every sale is a record sale….lots of sub $100 pre-war cards are sold to normal people every day.

[DerekMichael]

It is just my opinion, but based on MANY people whom I have actually spoken to in person, a lot of people feel they were driven away from the hobby, and I am not referring to Net54 board members.

Pretty much everyone I know constantly asks me questions about my card collecting, and a common theme which I have sadly come across during conversations on MANY different occasions with MANY different people is the following:

"I spent thousands and thousands of dollars in the 80's and 90's on new cards, and was told by many dealers that they were a terrific investment, and now they are literally worthless and I cannot give them away." ... or something along those lines.

I can recall going to card shops when I was younger, and I would hear dealers saying things to their customers like: "This Mark McGwire-Olympic rookie card (85 Topps) is only going to sky rocket in value, and I will give it to you for only $150 because it has (x) wrong with it etc.".

So, many of these people, when telling their story, which is usually more or less the exact same story, clearly feel hurt by the look in their eyes. Others tell me they have tried to resell the cards back to the very dealers they bought them from, only to be laughed at and offered pennies on the dollar. They do not get happy when they think of baseball cards. They think of a bunch of sleeze bags trying to rip them off.

I have heard the same story from different people over, and over, and over, and over, and it makes me angry, because so many people were ripped off by crooks in this hobby, they feel they can never return, or when they do return, they do so with great reservation, and are always looking over their shoulder.

For any dealer to ever have claimed that 80's or 90's were a great investment means either 1.) They were fools and actually bought into the absurdity, or 2.) They knew exactly what they were doing and that these cards were never, ever going to be worth anything, and that most likely, because of the massive amounts produced, which were obviously treated as a "collectible" from the day they hit the open market (the main problem with the logic of them maturing in value), were only going to collapse in the worst kind of way. They just did not care and were more than willing to keep lining their pockets while they ripped off the masses.

Naturally, their kids will not be getting that "warm and fuzzy" feeling when they think about baseball cards.

Again, these are not Net54 people I am talking about. They are the other hard working people whose attention and interests have gone a very different direction over the years, for what I consider to be very obvious and justified reasons.

Derek Hogue

[Gobucsmagic74]

That's my whole point......20 years ago the hobby of baseball card collecting was enormous! Every kid was collecting, and those kids back then are in their 30's and 40's today diving up prices. Like I said, kids today who WILL be the ones with all the disposable income in 30 years won't be looking at the hobby like you or I am RIGHT NOW because this hobby of collecting and for the most part baseball in general is not what interests kids in the teens and early 20's.

The problem right now is simple, those of us today in our late 30's to early 50's (me included) with the money to overpay, don't wanna hear that our $10,000 overbid for a simple T206 Drum or Uzit or "Ghost" or "Freak" or "Misprint" or what ever cool name we wanna come up with, will not be worth ANYWHERE near what we're paying now in 25-30 years. I always try to be smart and look ahead to the future of my money, but sometimes a card I "need" for my collection makes me lose focus of the bigger picture, lol. This is very much chess not checkers with the future of this hobby. It truly is a niche hobby, and "niche" hobbies are the first to expire when the new generation doesn't have any interest what so ever with this "niche". I have 3 sons spread out over different grades up to 8th grade...........and not a single kid I've ever come across at their schools has any interest in collecting baseball cards. I asked all 3 of my sons and they've told me nobody is school collects baseball cards anymore. Go into any Target or Wally World and try to find baseball cards....they're all sitting on a small shelf in a small distant area of the store collecting dust. That's the future of this hobby.

Keep in mind, many of us grew up in the 80's and 90's and took an absolute pounding spending our lunch money hoarding Will Clark, Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas, and Ken Griffey Jr. RC's and look how that turned out for us. Yet here we are back at it again, but this time a little wiser and with a little more money in our pockets.

There is something uniquely American about collecting baseball cards, and I'm cautiously optimistic that next generation collectors will simply be late bloomers. To be honest collecting vintage/pre-war cards is much simpler than collecting modern cards where every player has an infinite number of "RC's" and an equally ridiculous number of insert cards amongst the vast array of product. In vintage it's easy. A Hank Aaron RC is his '54 Topps, its finite, its simple and I think that's what a lot of people enjoy about vintage cards and what will get next generation's collector into the hobby.

Having said this, it would be extremely helpful if the hobby was given a new jolt of energy. I personally think a reality show like 'American Pickers' focused on sportscards and memorabilia could do wonders in generating interest and new collectors moving forward.

[EvilKing00]

Really? I think the same thing was said 20+ years ago about the same cards just with different prices. :)

The thing I think people forget on pre-war is a lot of people who collect this niche are doing so for varied reasons. Many of which are scholarly and collection checklist driven not so much die hard baseball fans. How many of us remember seeing the pre-war players play or are reliving our youth thru pre-war cards? I myself don't even follow modern sports.

There have always been collectors, there will always be collectors. Because of this collectors will accumulate collections and in doing so will want to obtain scarce, tough and even rare items for said collections and extreme prices will be paid in the process.

To announce that 25 years from now nobody will value rarities or scarce items is a silly concept. In terms of the mentioned examples T206 “Ghosts” and scarcer advertising backs. I agree the printing errors have certainly taken a new life from say 20 years ago.

I chalk this up to even more people today collecting this particular set wanting to own something unique. I also chalk it up to folks who have gone as far as they can with the T206 and are running out of things to collect. Meaning they have the set, they have the backs now they need something else to fill the void. When you add in a limited supply of printing errors to this mix of people you see today’s prices. This is a very good thing means there is a healthy amount of collectors on this issue.

In regards to the T206 scarcer brand backs they have always been more expensive or at least for the past 30+ years. Have prices jumped to more dramatic levels? Yes but once again more people and a limited supply along with a few key players and you have your prices. Could prices drop sure but they will drop to an all-time new hobby avg. Example not long ago you could get a Drum for say $1500 and that wasn’t long ago say 5-6 years ago. Even if they drop from 10k for the same card now they will drop to a higher number than ever before due to new historical prices being set within the collecting market. That’s just the nature of any hobby.

To answer the OP’s question I don’t think baseballs popularity will play a huge role in killing the niche we live in. However it will and has affected the modern market which is a gateway often to our niche and overtime could slim down new arrivals but that will take time.

We do have nostalgia on our side. No matter how boring modern baseball gets people will always look fondly upon the romantic version of our Nation’s past and look to own a part of that past.

Cheers,

John

"There have always been collectors, there will always be collectors. Because of this collectors will accumulate collections"

Great Line and so true!

[MyGuyTy]

Sorry “MyGuyTy” but I disagree. It also has nothing to do with what I may or may not have overpaid for either as there are anomalies in every hobby. Every collector has items he has too much in that’s called collecting.

My point above is that 20 years ago records were set and folks said that is silly, then 10 years ago folks said that is silly, then 5 years ago….and so on and so on…..

As I said above this hobby is not driven by modern shiny trading card business. That business is dead and dying even the retail space dedicated to such is being cut. Yet our hobby is having record highs and growth, am I to believe this is all driven by 50 year old men with cash to burn? No there is young blood in this hobby I’m 38 not young but not a baby boomer. There are even younger collectors here spending big money.

This whole nobody collects cards at high school so we are all doomed is just silly. Art and music programs are almost dead in schools also but we still have fine art collecting and rock stars. Just because it’s not a Leave it to Beaver episode on every corner in America and kids aren’t out playing stick ball by the fire hydrants and flipping cards against the walls does not mean our hobby is dead. The pre-war section has had very little drive from the baby boomers looking to relive what mom tossed out.

If anything the hobby has become more sophisticated and because of the digital age we live in even more obscure avenues of card collecting have emerged, and even more people can be exposed to the hobby.

Cheers,

John

Edited to add “MyTyGuy” your view of the people who drive our hobby is very narrow not everyone who collects any type of antiques has to have started that journey as a kid, nor do they have to have an affinity for the subject matter they collect either. Also the hobby is not driven solely by multi-millionaires either. Not every sale is a record sale….lots of sub $100 pre-war cards are sold to normal people every day.


John for your sake, my sake and the sake of everyone on this board who loves thus hobby, I hope you're right. However I remain skeptical as interest baseball and the cards themselves continues to fade with every passing year amongst the next generation of "money".

Also to add, the casual "sophisticated" collector of anything vintage is SUCH a small minority in the larger scope. The majority of collectors have emotional ties to what they're collecting and handing out a king's ransom for. Just because I enjoy vintage cards, doesn't mean I'll go out and drop $10,000 on a vase from the 1800's. Why do you think the 80's just happened to be the start of the baseball card collecting explosion? Because that was the first generation of 30 something year olds who remember the golden age of being a kid in the 50's and 60's when the baseball card with bubble gum craze officially kicked into a whole different level. That money in the 80's and 90's is still what's hanging on to the hobby prices today......30 years from now, new money takes over with new "interests" and new "hobbies" while the small demographic of men in their 30's and 40's right now who enjoy paying thousands upon thousands for these cards, will most likely be dead and having their collections dispersed.

[EvilKing00]

Having said this, it would be extremely helpful if the hobby was given a new jolt of energy. I personally think a reality show like 'American Pickers' focused on sportscards and memorabilia could do wonders in generating interest and new collectors moving forward.

that sure would be cool, id deff watch

[Gobucsmagic74]

John for your sake, my sake and the sake of everyone on this board who loves thus hobby, I hope you're right. However I remain skeptical as interest baseball and the cards themselves continues to fade with every passing year amongst the next generation of "money".

I understand why you are skeptical, but would like to add that the flooding of the market of next generation selling off their inherited collections should probably be of equal or greater concern. This is one of the first generations of young American's who are not better off than their parents and this is one of my biggest concerns moving forward.

[MyGuyTy]

Let's not forget either, guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's NEVER thought stamp collecting would disappear because it was so popular for so many decades........yeah we see where that one ended up.

[wonkaticket]

John for your sake, my sake and the sake of everyone on this board who loves thus hobby, I hope you're right. However I remain skeptical as interest baseball and the cards themselves continues to fade with every passing year amongst the next generation of "money".

If you really feel that way I understand and respect your thoughts, but if that is 100% how you feel I would look to sell now. For me I'll hang in a bit longer as I don't feel the sky is falling just yet.... :)

[MyGuyTy]

I understand why you are skeptical, but would like to add that the flooding of the market of next generation selling off their inherited collections should probably be of equal or greater concern. This is one of the first generations of young American's who are not better off than their parents and this is one of my biggest concerns moving forward.



That's exactly what I'm talking about, it will be a combination of an overall lack of interest and flooded market of vintage cards. Supply will be plenty and demand is projecting to be at an all time low.......Recipe for a complete crash of values.

[MyGuyTy]

If you really feel that way I understand and respect your thoughts, but if that is 100% how you feel I would look to sell now. For me I'll hang in a bit longer as I don't feel the sky is falling just yet.... :)


"Yet"........ Key word in your entire statement ;)

[Bored5000]

I can recall going to card shops when I was younger, and I would hear dealers saying things to their customers like: "This Mark McGwire-Olympic rookie card (85 Topps) is only going to sky rocket in value, and I will give it to you for only $150 because it has (x) wrong with it etc.".

So, many of these people, when telling their story, which is usually more or less the exact same story, clearly feel hurt by the look in their eyes. Others tell me they have tried to resell the cards back to the very dealers they bought them from, only to be laughed at and offered pennies on the dollar. They do not get happy when they think of baseball cards. They think of a bunch of sleeze bags trying to rip them off.



I think the above is far more of a problem for the hobby going forward than a general lack of interest in baseball. Obviously, there are a lot of honest and ethical people involved with the hobby. But IMO the general perception (and I don't think this perception is wrong) is that card collecting is filled with scammers and crooks looking to rip people off.

Leon and the posters on here do a great service to the hobby by exposing such scams, but the amount of crooks in the hobby seems never-ending.

[KCRfan1]

Let's not forget either, guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's NEVER thought stamp collecting would disappear because it was so popular for so many decades........yeah we see where that one ended up.

I would never make the comparison of stamp collecting to card collecting. For most of us, we remember going to a convenience store or card shop to buy packs after we saved our allowance. We would organize our cards by teams, or numberically, and trade with other kids in the neighborhood. We learned to study numbers by looking at the stats on the backs of cards, and likely helped with our math in school. We have those childhood memories that we feel everytime we get a new card for our collection. Cards have images of players we imitated when we played the game. Those players were our heros, and when we played we were those " heros ". My grandmother collected stamps, and all I saw from stamps were images and colors. Stamps were not on tv, no characters, nothing to connect me with the stamp itsself. No hero's, no rivalries, no life, no nothing to keep the hobby alive. Comparing stamps to cards is a poor analogy in my opinion, but that's all it is, my opinion.

[EvilKing00]

Speaking for myself, someone who collected cards since I was a kid in the 80's and 90's. If someone asked me when I was 18-29 if I was interested in collecting pre-war cards I would flat out say no. I had all to do, in finishing school, working a full time job, paying my rent and expenses, going out to bars and hanging out with girlfriends. And on the occasion pick my self up a few maddux and Griffey rookie cards, and throw then im my shoe box.

But as I got older, got married, had a kid, settled down, make more money I have time for a true hobby, cause im not distracted by being a young crazy "kid".

Collectors will allways be around, and always want the, old or older stuff. Weather its furnature, cars, advertising or baseball cards. It just takes the collector some time to mature, in my case.

Im 39 and have only just begun collecting, babe ruth and t205 cards last year. Not because I had no interest.... I just didn't have the funds or the time.

What the heck else is a 40 plus guy gonna do with his pocket money?;)

[thehoodedcoder]

You wanna know what will be the hot "collector" items of the next generation bringing ridiculous prices? Vintage video game consoles and 90's era Japanese sports cars. Just like we grew up with the hot item being baseball cards, those items that I mentioned will be what kids "collect" when they hit their 30's.

i think about this alot. i have two atari 400s and some pretty rare games from what i can see. i think one is even a proto type. its on a tape casette.

there is a lot of room out there in this market. its tough to even find a vintage game price guide, though they do exist.

sometimes i feel like i should get into it a little bit because i think over the long haul the prices will grow and it could be a good investment.

kevin

[MyGuyTy]

i think about this alot. i have two atari 400s and some pretty rare games from what i can see. i think one is even a proto type. its on a tape casette.

there is a lot of room out there in this market. its tough to even find a vintage game price guide, though they do exist.

sometimes i feel like i should get into it a little bit because i think over the long haul the prices will grow and it could be a good investment.

kevin


I don't really have much interest in them, but my brother in law has already amassed around 15-20 vintage game consoles from the late 70's to early 90's. Atari, commodore, Telstar, Bally, intellivision, original Sega, original Nintendo, turbographx, CD-i, Neo Geo etc. and he continues to get ridiculous offers well into the thousands from collectors to buy his old systems. He knows this is just the beginning of the vintage console hobby so he's not selling anytime soon.

[z28jd]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, it will be a combination of an overall lack of interest and flooded market of vintage cards. Supply will be plenty and demand is projecting to be at an all time low.......Recipe for a complete crash of values.

The amount of vintage cards will never be considered plenty. They aren't making any, so the population will only go down as time passes. Cards are lost to attrition, whether it's fire, natural disasters, mistakenly thrown out, whatever.

We have all seen parts of the market go up or down based on just one extra person collecting a particular set or player. That just proves how rare they are overall and there have been some huge collections put on the market, such as Lionel Carter's or the large find of Drum backs. They did nothing negative to the market value of similar cards.

The are plenty of people that would gladly embrace prices dropping because they are "collectors" and it's more for them, so those people will eat up any so called flood of cards. Then when someone wants them again, the prices will go up. There are always going to be people lying in wait for that flood of cards so they can do what they do, collect.

[MyGuyTy]

There are always going to be people lying in wait for that flood of cards so they can do what they do, collect.

So there's gonna be 70-90 years old lying in wait to drop $15,000 on rare back or rare "print error" T206 in 30 years? I highly doubt it. Nor will men who will be in their 30's and 40's at that time with the real disposable income. New money, new interests, new hobbies, new ways of thinking.

[MyGuyTy]

The amount of vintage cards will never be considered plenty. They aren't making any, so the population will only go down as time passes. Cards are lost to attrition, whether it's fire, natural disasters, mistakenly thrown out, whatever.

We have all seen parts of the market go up or down based on just one extra person collecting a particular set or player. That just proves how rare they are overall and there have been some huge collections put on the market, such as Lionel Carter's or the large find of Drum backs. They did nothing negative to the market value of similar cards.

The are plenty of people that would gladly embrace prices dropping because they are "collectors" and it's more for them, so those people will eat up any so called flood of cards. Then when someone wants them again, the prices will go up. There are always going to be people lying in wait for that flood of cards so they can do what they do, collect.


Just because something is perceived as "rare" doesn't mean it's automatically so "valuable" beyond belief. There are TONS are vintage items and artifacts (in which only a handful exist) with values under a couple hundred bucks. Why? Because there's no true demand for these particular items or the market for them has completely disappeared.

[William Todd]

My feeling on this subject is somewhat middle of the road to this discussion. As a career investment person, I know that trends come and go. The rare baseball cards and stamps and art will hold their value, but many times along the long term span of time they can become overpriced. I am concerned that many of the high grade examples of cards, like the Wagner, may have been altered. I don't know how this will affect their value over time. In the last five years I have moved my collecting focus to collecting middle grade, somewhat rare, reasonably priced cards, all pre WWI. I enjoy collecting, I love the cards, but not overpaying for them.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I think it is interesting that nobody else considered the effect that the medical data may have on the future of pro football.

[bnorth]

It is just my opinion, but based on MANY people whom I have actually spoken to in person, a lot of people feel they were driven away from the hobby, and I am not referring to Net54 board members.

Pretty much everyone I know constantly asks me questions about my card collecting, and a common theme which I have sadly come across during conversations on MANY different occasions with MANY different people is the following:

"I spent thousands and thousands of dollars in the 80's and 90's on new cards, and was told by many dealers that they were a terrific investment, and now they are literally worthless and I cannot give them away." ... or something along those lines.

I can recall going to card shops when I was younger, and I would hear dealers saying things to their customers like: "This Mark McGwire-Olympic rookie card (85 Topps) is only going to sky rocket in value, and I will give it to you for only $150 because it has (x) wrong with it etc.".

So, many of these people, when telling their story, which is usually more or less the exact same story, clearly feel hurt by the look in their eyes. Others tell me they have tried to resell the cards back to the very dealers they bought them from, only to be laughed at and offered pennies on the dollar. They do not get happy when they think of baseball cards. They think of a bunch of sleeze bags trying to rip them off.

I have heard the same story from different people over, and over, and over, and over, and it makes me angry, because so many people were ripped off by crooks in this hobby, they feel they can never return, or when they do return, they do so with great reservation, and are always looking over their shoulder.

For any dealer to ever have claimed that 80's or 90's were a great investment means either 1.) They were fools and actually bought into the absurdity, or 2.) They knew exactly what they were doing and that these cards were never, ever going to be worth anything, and that most likely, because of the massive amounts produced, which were obviously treated as a "collectible" from the day they hit the open market (the main problem with the logic of them maturing in value), were only going to collapse in the worst kind of way. They just did not care and were more than willing to keep lining their pockets while they ripped off the masses.

Naturally, their kids will not be getting that "warm and fuzzy" feeling when they think about baseball cards.

Again, these are not Net54 people I am talking about. They are the other hard working people whose attention and interests have gone a very different direction over the years, for what I consider to be very obvious and justified reasons.

Derek Hogue

This overpaying and ending up with worthless rookie cards did not stop in the 90's. It is has been going strong since the mid 80's when I started and is still going strong now. Just look at the crazy prices people are paying for Puig and Harper cards. There is absolutely no way those cards will be worth 10% of what they are selling for now in a few years and then those collectors will leave the hobby feeling robbed also. I have seen this countless times in the last 25+ years.

[mrvster]

Ty Guy= they said the same thing about Wagner:D:)

30 years ago .... HA!!

btw....
the new shiny collectors, rookies will do what we did, collect T206...

I think we have a lot of T206 envy on board:D

[steve B]

Let's not forget either, guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's NEVER thought stamp collecting would disappear because it was so popular for so many decades........yeah we see where that one ended up.

Decades?! Try well over a century.

And collecting stamps is hardly dead, although it is trending older for a number of reasons.

I've collected a lot of things at various levels since I was around 5 or 6.
ALL of them had dealers and some following. And ALL of them had the same gloomy predictions. For some it sort of happened, for some it really hasn't.

I started with coins and stamps.
A couple of those Whitman blue coin folders, a starter stamp album, a bag of cheap stamps and a bit of stuff from Dads collection after a couple years.
I also collected rocks and minerals. And seashells, and old bottles and telephone/telegraph insulators.

All of those collecting areas are still being collected.
Coins has/had the same aging problems, but the state quarters added some interest from a younger crowd.
Stamps has an aging problem, but the APS is doing a pretty good job of bringing in new collectors. So is USPS, but what they do doesn't work as well as the state quarters.
Old bottles has been pretty static pricewise, and various things have come and gone as fads. It's in a category of hobbies where there really aren't "sets", so a collector has to accept that there won't be any real completion.
Insulators was "big" for a time, but suffered from a lack of supply. There's maybe 20-30 really common ones and after that it gets challenging. One of the antique places I go to has a dealer. His prices are a bit high seeming for the nice stuff.
I've been a bit out of touch on shells. I'm not much of a beach person because of the traffic and crowds. But it was always a small hobby. I think CITES has probably kept it small. Hard to know if the species is common, and if not it may be protected making dealing in the shells illegal (Even if they're found on a beach)
Rocks and minerals is also small, but last I checked was doing fine. Enough interest to support great prices for the spectacular stuff, and availability of cheaper stuff. I used to hunt my own, but a lot of the places I went as a kid are closed to the public now.

I've continued collecting stamps and coins, being much more active with stamps. The stuff I specialize in now is oddly the stuff I disliked for years.

Along the way I've been into other hobbies.
Collecting old racing bicycles and others. - The stuff I really like has become too expensive for me, Balloon tire bikes were the big thing for a time, as were stingrays. Both have peaked and fallen back a bit. But the really great stuff is still doing fine. Early BMX is hot right now, and prices seem totally insane to me.

Old films 16 and 8mm. Another odd hobby, and another one that suffers from a lack of supply. But the "good" stuff is still doing well even if a DVD costs far less than an original film. A "common" feature film in 16mm might have 10-25 copies in existence. Yes, an entire hobby where the common stuff is more rare than the Wagner.

Collecting old pneumatic or hydraulic tools. Heavy and miserable to ship. Often really rare, and also filthy and beaten to death. Fortunately also often cheap. (I never met anyone else that collected that stuff except as a sideline to old cars.)

Old car stuff
Old magazines and other ephemera
Beer cans
Hotwheels and other little cars
Action figures
Model railroads
Plus a bunch of random collectible items. Old radios, wringer washing machine, 50's television,

And yes, I have "some" old videogame consoles and games and some early home computers. Both of those are developing hobbies with a lot of upside. The videogames more than the computers since the computers are big and require a fair amount of technical skill to keep them running. That makes it a hobby that isn't for everyone.

The internet has changed every hobby. The biggest thing has been that now it's obvious what's actually uncommon and what's available everywhere.
I can't really think of any hobby I've heard of that's entirely gone.

Steve B

[MyGuyTy]

We'll if anything it's been a great topic to ponder today ;)

[teetwoohsix]

Lot's of great points brought up in this thread, and it's been fun to read.

I felt Wonka's first post pretty much summed up the way I view things, as far as this topic goes.

I know from my own experience, if I were collecting things from my high school days, it would be more along the lines of concert shirts, heavy metal on vinyl, bongs, and guitars :o But seriously-

In grade school, I collected the current Topps cards-could have cared less about condition. My small collection was left behind during a move across the country, and I (entering junior high) became focused on girls :D Fast forward to mid thirties,,,,I decided I wanted to collect "something", and the first thing that came to mind was "baseball cards". I didn't even know about century old cards-I was buying modern cards, then picked up a couple of cards from the 50's and 60's.....then discovered pre-war. Instantly I was hooked- I couldn't stop looking at them all (on ebay). They were, and still are, always out of my price range. I sometimes go for months without a pick up.

But I am still hooked on them-T206's (damn these things :D). I understand that there is an investment side to things, but I try to put that out of my perspective for the most part-meaning, I am not buying cards because of what they may or may not be worth in the future. I hope they at least retain their value-but if they don't, oh well-I had a blast collecting them and I love them, and that's worth whatever I pay for them (to me).

So, you can't base the future of the hobby on what high school kids are doing......at least when it comes to pre-war cards (in my humble opinion :)). Adults who want to collect things (some at least) will always find an attraction to pre-war cards, and their mystique of a time long past.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't have an opinion on the broader market but as I have said before, I think the values of freaks and miscuts and rarebacks is due in large part to a few lunatics :D:D here pumping each other up so I don't see those holding their value.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Speaking for myself, someone who collected cards since I was a kid in the 80's and 90's. If someone asked me when I was 18-29 if I was interested in collecting pre-war cards I would flat out say no. I had all to do, in finishing school, working a full time job, paying my rent and expenses, going out to bars and hanging out with girlfriends. And on the occasion pick my self up a few maddux and Griffey rookie cards, and throw then im my shoe box.

But as I got older, got married, had a kid, settled down, make more money I have time for a true hobby, cause im not distracted by being a young crazy "kid".

Collectors will allways be around, and always want the, old or older stuff. Weather its furnature, cars, advertising or baseball cards. It just takes the collector some time to mature, in my case.

Im 39 and have only just begun collecting, babe ruth and t205 cards last year. Not because I had no interest.... I just didn't have the funds or the time.

What the heck else is a 40 plus guy gonna do with his pocket money?;)

You and I sound like we're in approximately the same boat. I turn 40 in November, collected in the 90's, and thought it was all lost when I had to start working instead of cashing in on my Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa RC's. I walked away from the hobby for about 10 years until I caught the bug again, and now there's no going back.

I'll be the first to admit I'm a flipper, the kind I've heard people on this board generally don't care for but working in the field of education and with a two year old son and wife at home that's the name of my game. I buy to turn over, while also buying for my own personal and have absolutely no shame in what I do because its the only way I can finance the hobby.

One way we can all keep this hobby alive and thriving is sharing it with our children. I cant wait to see whether my son Jaxson takes an interest in the hobby or not. I plan to introduce it to him by giving him a choice of cards every year on his birthday and letting him chose which card he wants based on him researching the players and letting me know why it's the card he wants to add to his collection that year. As soon as he starts selling quality cards for video games I'm sure I'll be re-thinking this idea! :)

[wonkaticket]

I think its so funny and very telling that every time one of these threads pops up the case made is always about T206 prices. Nobody ever says who will be willing to drop 100k on a N172 CA league card years from now?

At least it shows the power and just how mainstream T206 is which is a good thing for the hobby.

If the folks who start the gloom and doom train only knew how much huge money was spent on other items like 50's regional issues, type cards, 19th century, advertising pieces etc. the least of their concerns would be 10k on a Drum or print error peanuts.....peanuts....peanuts compared to other stuff.

[ullmandds]

This topic has been discussed numerous times...and the sides are usually split down the middle. My stance on this topic usually mirrors that of myguyty in a lot of ways.

I am a collector...always have been...always will be to a degree...not just vintage bb cards...pottery, art, books, all kinds of stuff. But there aren't that many collectors out there! I don't have any friends outside of this hobby who collect much of anything?

Technology has changed society in so many ways...take music for example. We used to buy records, cassettes...look at them, play them...now people buy mp3's...they buy songs. It's much less tangible. Society is trending away from tangible things in a lot of ways in my opinion...and I find myself getting away from "things" as well.

I agree that the t206 freak/rare back phenomenon is incredibly overinflated...and over time these prices will drop quite a bit.

I think common vintage card supply of non hof'ers will exceed demand in the future causing these prices to drop as well.

I think there are many older collectors who will be leaving us/selling off their collections in the future...causing a large influx of cards into the hobby.

On the other side of the coin...many older people/collectors will be passing away...and will be leaving significant amounts of $$$$ to the younger generations...so the younger folk...while they may not have been successful as their parents will be inheriting a lot of $$$$ so they will have the means to buy baseball cards if they so choose.

As the popularity of modern cards diminishes...this could increase the popularity of older cards.

As the values of common, non high tier hof'ers decrease...the price point of entry will enable more to enter the vintage hobby who as they mature will pursue the higher buck cards.

Noone really knows what will happen to this hobby...we all can speculate...one thing I do know is that despite the fact I am a little bearish on the future of the hobby...I will be an active participant in it until I am no longer able!

I have trimmed my collection from quantity to more "quality" cards over the last few years as I think the big names and rarities will hold their values better over the long term.

[rdwyer]

I went to the Ducks-Kings hockey game last night at Dodger stadium. Was very entertaining, and even had KISS performing. The NHL is attracting more and more fans every day. The outdoor hockey games are responsible for this.

[gregr2]

50,000 at Yankee stadium today to watch the Rangers and Devils.

[mark evans]

I think MyGuy may be barking up the right tree.

I'm 64 and collected cards as a kid. With the advent of eBay, and in light of my interest in baseball history, I developed an interest in pre-war cards, although I of course never saw those guys play. Key to my interest in vintage cards was the fact that I had collected baseball cards in my youth.

I'm assuming a significant percentage of pre-war collectors, like me, first collected cards as a kid. If this is true, and if statistics are showing that fewer and fewer kids are collecting baseball cards, then it should follow that demand for vintage cards will decline over time.

[MyGuyTy]

I think its so funny and very telling that every time one of these threads pops up the case made is always about T206 prices. Nobody ever says who will be willing to drop 100k on a N172 CA league card years from now?

At least it shows the power and just how mainstream T206 is which is a good thing for the hobby.

If the folks who start the gloom and doom train only knew how much huge money was spent on other items like 50's regional issues, type cards, 19th century, advertising pieces etc. the least of their concerns would be 10k on a Drum or print error peanuts.....peanuts....peanuts compared to other stuff.


John it all falls under the same umbrella, vintage baseball related goods. Hence the topic that OP brought up.......the OVERALL decline in interest in baseball and how it affects the future of vintage baseball memorabilia.

[wonkaticket]

John it all falls under the same umbrella, vintage baseball related goods. Hence the topic that OP brought up.......the OVERALL decline in interest in baseball and how it affects the future of vintage baseball memorabilia.

You're right I give in I'm selling it all tonight and running for the hills the hobby is doomed....... :)

[mrvster]

T 206 is here to stay, and the future of this set is extremely bright, especially fueled by Wagner....

Baseball will always be a very popular sport....no matter what.....

These cards won't be thrown into the fire like Farenheit 451:D...

E cards like today could never replace the vintage cardboard like T206 or O.J.s


just deal with it :D.........

[rhettyeakley]

I always find it interesting that people tie the collecting of baseball memorabilia so closely to the collectors love of the current game of baseball.

I actually feel pretty good about the sports collectibles hobby. This hobby unlike many collectibles fields has an advantage in that it is tied to a game that is still currently being played and maintains popularity. Many items from other hobbies that maintain high value today have nothing going for them other than that they were once highly prized and that value has continued to this day.

What about the glass bottle collector... do we tie their long term viability based on how much people today love glass bottles? How about the Coca-Cola collector... do we worry about their long term collectability due to Coke's dropping presence in the soda market today? How about coin collecting... do we worry about this market because almost nobody uses physical money anymore?

The answer to these questions may very well be yes but we can make similar types of pessimistic views with nearly every field within the collectibles market. Nobody can see the future but I think some are being a bit simplistic when they start making direct correlations from the popularity of baseball right now and the long term collectability of baseball items.

[MyGuyTy]

You're right I give in I'm selling it all tonight and running for the hills the hobby is doomed....... :)


Attaboy.......

[Peter_Spaeth]

t 206 is here to stay, and the future of this set is extremely bright, especially fueled by wagner....

Baseball will always be a very popular sport....no matter what.....

These cards won't be thrown into the fire like farenheit 451:d...

E cards like today could never replace the vintage cardboard like t206 or o.j.s


just deal with it :d.........

lol

[wonkaticket]

I always find it interesting that people tie the collecting of baseball memorabilia so closely to the collectors love of the current game of baseball.

I actually feel pretty good about the sports collectibles hobby. This hobby unlike many collectibles fields has an advantage in that it is tied to a game that is still currently being played and maintains popularity. Many items from other hobbies that maintain high value today have nothing going for them other than that they were once highly prized and that value has continued to this day.

What about the glass bottle collector... do we tie their long term viability based on how much people today love glass bottles? How about the Coca-Cola collector... do we worry about their long term collectability due to Coke's dropping presence in the soda market today? How about coin collecting... do we worry about this market because almost nobody uses physical money anymore?

The answer to these questions may very well be yes but we can make similar types of pessimistic views with nearly every field within the collectibles market. Nobody can see the future but I think some are being a bit simplistic when they start making direct correlations from the popularity of baseball right now and the long term collectability of baseball items.

+1

[freakhappy]

For some reason I feel a few people in this thread are "on edge" :rolleyes: why do you think that is?

I think MyGuyTy has some very valid points and I don't believe he is being pessimistic at all...but rather, realistic. I don't know what will happen to the hobby in the next 30-50 years or after that, but I think what he is saying seems very logical...to deny it, seems like you just don't want to think about it.

We all know that the younger generation is not into cards like they used to be and I don't know one kid under 18 except wazoo that does! Twenty or so years ago, card collecting amongst kids was so popular...but now it is mostly dead. So what does this possibly say for the future of the hobby once our generation has passed? I don't know the answer for sure, but unless A LOT of younger kids get moving, we should see a decline for sure.

Since the '90's or so, it has been a wreck for kids to collect because of the prices and a lot of card stores are long gone. Things aren't that simple or fun anymore and if no one is there to present this great hobby of ours to them, then where is it going? Certainly not up, right? I'm sure there will always be buyers and sellers, but I highly doubt the demand will rise IMO. I love this hobby and I for one do not want it to decline, but it kind of seems obvious when you think about it.

There's no doubt that it should stay steady for a good amount of years, but for how long? We only have a small sample size of card collecting overall (130-50 years) and we're already seeing the younger generation stray away.

[doug.goodman]

Forgetting about the "state of the hobby" for just a moment...

Has anybody mentioned what a stupid f'ing poll that was?

What's your favorite sport? Who cares.


If the question had been "what's your favorite meal?" I'm confident of two things :

1 - Ice cream would not have won.

2 - Ice cream stores will never go out of business.



Pitchers and catchers start reporting in 11 days, and I for one couldn't care less if the world prefers football (double meaning intended).

The fewer people in the stands for a baseball game the better, as far as I'm concerned, because, the dorks are the first ones to not show up, so the smaller the crowd, the higher the percentage of actual baseball fans.

If I owned a team, I wouldn't anybody into the park who didn't keep score.

Doug

[Jantz]

You're right I give in I'm selling it all tonight and running for the hills the hobby is doomed....... :)

John

Might I suggest an Ebay seller who is always taking consignments and could get you the best prices for your cards? :) ;)


Jantz

[wonkaticket]

I don't think anyone is "on edge" about anything there's nothing to be on edge about. Mike perhaps you can explain "on edge"? :confused:

[wonkaticket]

John

Might I suggest an Ebay seller who is always taking consignments and could get you the best prices for your cards? :) ;)


Jantz


Jantz do you still think there's time? :D

[freakhappy]

I don't think anyone is "on edge" about anything there's nothing to be on edge about. Mike perhaps you can explain "on edge"? :confused:

Don't talk about my hobby like that!!! Just the feeling I get when some people respond. Nothing personal...

How's the chocolate business going? ;)

130468

[mrvster]

as long as baseball is played, cards will be collected.....as long as the next generation plays ball:D.......the nostalgic pastime, will always have an interest amongst even historians.......that's realistic......waz is a special breed.....most youngsters buy the new shiny stuff.....they usually don't graduate to vintage until they mature a little like we did.......every wally world, target, and kmart I go to has a lot of baseball cards still......they new card market is HUGE! once the youngsters get sick of the manufactured rarities, they will focus on true vintage rarities;)


the future of vintage depends on the future generations interest in baseball. which I don't see ever diminishing that much....

the wagner will continue to keep baseball card collecting alive.......that mystery alone will keep intrigue in our hobby.....the ball has already started rolling:D

[wonkaticket]

Don't talk about my hobby like that!!! Just the feeling I get when some people respond. Nothing personal...

How's the chocolate business going? ;)

130468

Still not following you Mike, If you're referring to the position that the hobby isn't going to fall apart in 20 years due to the short attention span of Americas youth or the decline of the shiny card business as an on edge response then I'm guilty as charged. Or as I see it it's just the counter offer to the gloom and doom hardly on edge.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Not in the chocolate business anymore I hear my neighbors kids like Redbull more these days so the chocolate business will fall apart 20 years from now.....:)

[mrvster]

THAT WAS GREAT! I'm dumping all my chocolate stock now to buy red bull stock:D

[itjclarke]

I think MyGuyTy has some very valid points and I don't believe he is being pessimistic at all...but rather, realistic.

Totally agree, I think MyGuyTy made some very valid points. At the same time I do very much hope the hobby finds a way to continue and thrive long after I'm gone. If so, I think it (whoever "it" is) will need to take a more active role in doing so.. Per Dan's post, a TV show, or anything that creates some positive attention and promotion would be great. The card/memorabilia world will also need to do a heck of a lot better job a courting young collectors... And with young collectors, I think it's far better if this is driven first by the game.. By a love of the game, rather than simply collecting its artifacts.

I understand the point that some collect solely for collecting sake or for love of the game's history, while not having passion for the present game.. and/or without having had a love for the game (playing/watching) and cards as kids. I think that's great, whatever floats your boat.. People's motivations are varied and this is good. To me however (and I think to many average collectors), all these things come together- the game current and past, childhood memories of playing and talking baseball with my dad, scouring through Bill James books, and getting those first cards. I feel having had all these experiences, mixed with the emotions they evoke are the main reason I collect now.. And in that, the popularity of the present game, and how the next younger generation views it is hugely important toward getting the average person into collecting.

To that, off the top of my head, current baseball "bads"--- PEDs and a growing fan indifference towards new records/career milestones and the HOF. Free agency limiting any city's (or kid's) bond with its stars. Goods--- amazing influence international talent has had on the quality of play. Incredible year round TV coverage/access to all games. Nice new ballparks and rising attendance. A style of play that seems to be morphing back to basic fundamentals (pitching, defense, running, gap to gap hitting, etc) rather than the static mid-90's CO Rockies' HR derby style. And given football concussion/health concerns (as mentioned earlier), a possible youth shift back to baseball (and probably soccer.. Even though it has a concussion problem of its own), which could ensure MLB gets more Mike Trouts/Matt Kemp caliber athletes. I think baseball is due for a big bounce back, and so could the current card world if it plays it's cards right.

[DerekMichael]

I found this thread to be very interesting, and just wanted to add one more thing, which is obviously just an opinion.

I am 27 years old. I am a great admirer of the T206 set. HOWEVER, I can tell you with absolute certainty that when I was a teenager or younger, that I did not give a damn about T206 cards, or any cards really. Sure, I liked them and collected VERY modestly, but the reality was that I wanted to see my friends and play guitars and have drinks and meet girls etc. etc. etc. etc. ... baseball cards meant nothing to me at the time, other than a way to have some fun with my Dad, who had not bought a baseball card since he was a teenager in the 60's. They just did not matter to me at that age.

In my opinion, collecting new cards and collecting vintage cards are two completely different worlds. I think "new" cards are dead by and large, for a wide variety of reasons, and that the younger generation is likely not to return to them. There are just far too many other things for them this day and age. However, as they get a little bit older, if they are anything like me, they will settle down just a bit, and look for something they can appreciate. I chose vintage baseball cards because I see them as genuine fine art for the baseball fan.

My point is that if people feel worried about the hobby in general because teenagers etc. are not interested in buying packs of new cards, that the hobby is in trouble, or will be. It just does not work that way. Even if they are not interested in pre war cards for example, it does not mean that they will not be somewhere down the line, it is just hard to have a genuine hobby at that age because so much is going on and it so, so hard to earn a living, or to be paying off student loans, or whatever it is.

Just remember, even if many people pass away, leave their cards to their kids who decide to "dump" everything, and there is a huge rush to the market, it only takes two people who really want the card for the prices to either remain strong or continue to grow, or whatever it is. ONLY TWO. So, who knows? ...

I do not mean this in an argumentative way, whatsoever. I found this to be a very interesting thread to read. I just honestly think people need to realize that by and large, the younger people (teens etc.) are not going to have much interest in this hobby for a variety of reasons, certainly not like it was in my fathers day. Still, it does not mean that they will not fall madly in love with at some point in their lives. There are just so many factors.

So, who knows? ... Not me!

Derek Hogue

[freakhappy]

Still not following you Mike, If you're referring to the position that the hobby isn't going to fall apart in 20 years due to the short attention span of Americas youth or the decline of the shiny card business as an on edge response then I'm guilty as charged. Or as I see it it's just the counter offer to the gloom and doom hardly on edge.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Not in the chocolate business anymore I hear my neighbors kids like Redbull more these days so the chocolate business will fall apart 20 years from now.....:)

Lol...not in 20 years, John...50-70 years! Like I said, this hobby is safe for the near future, but it's the long term that scares me...I hope this generation doesn't die in 20 years!!!:eek: I don't see this hobby completely dying out, but how can you deny that there is a strong possibility that it will not be somewhat close to what it is today?

Johnny...I love your enthusiasm and I hope I'm reading your comments on here for a long time :) I'm right with you on card collectors will always exist as long as there are a game to be played (or something like that). However...my view is not just considering that card collectors will exist, but what shape will they be in in the distant future. The evidence before us suggests that it will not be so merry like we want it to be...maybe I'm wrong, but how can anyone push this aside and just scoff at it? Either way I'm going to enjoy this hobby until someone or something pries it away from me.

[MyGuyTy]

For some reason I feel a few people in this thread are "on edge" :rolleyes: why do you think that is?

I think MyGuyTy has some very valid points and I don't believe he is being pessimistic at all...but rather, realistic. I don't know what will happen to the hobby in the next 30-50 years or after that, but I think what he is saying seems very logical...to deny it, seems like you just don't want to think about it.

We all know that the younger generation is not into cards like they used to be and I don't know one kid under 18 except wazoo that does! Twenty or so years ago, card collecting amongst kids was so popular...but now it is mostly dead. So what does this possibly say for the future of the hobby once our generation has passed? I don't know the answer for sure, but unless A LOT of younger kids get moving, we should see a decline for sure.

Since the '90's or so, it has been a wreck for kids to collect because of the prices and a lot of card stores are long gone. Things aren't that simple or fun anymore and if no one is there to present this great hobby of ours to them, then where is it going? Certainly not up, right? I'm sure there will always be buyers and sellers, but I highly doubt the demand will rise IMO. I love this hobby and I for one do not want it to decline, but it kind of seems obvious when you think about it.

There's no doubt that it should stay steady for a good amount of years, but for how long? We only have a small sample size of card collecting overall (130-50 years) and we're already seeing the younger generation stray away.



Great points Mike, that's basically all I'm saying. Will there still be SOME collectors of vintage baseball memorabilia 30 years from now?.....sure, BUT to what extent?? Is there gonna be enough "die hard" vintage baseball guys 30 years from now that are gonna be falling all over each other to bid $110,000 on an old raggedy N172 OJ advertisement from 1887?? Judging by the path this hobby (and baseball in general) is projecting with the next generation, my money is absolutely on no. These prices today are driven by that 1950's to 1980's demographic that is still the driving force. In 30 years everything changes all over again.

And we haven't even got into the fact that the demographics in this country are rapidly changing especially in the south, southeast, southwest and west. Not to mention the grim economic landscape that is being forecasted for our kids 25-30 years from now as jobs continue to be outsourced, eliminated or giving to illegals at a cheaper wage.

Just as Mike said NOBODY (especially the guy who just blew $110,000 on that advertisement) wants to hear these things, just like the real estate investors 10 years ago didn't wanna hear those silly "bubble bursting" projections.........truths do in fact suck when you have a vested interest.

Why did it take this hobby until the 1980's/1990's to start bringing in ENORMOUS prices for vintage items??? Because the interest in (over) paying silly prices for cards was non-existent despite the fact that there were in deed many "collectors" in this hobby. It was actually about the hobby itself and the love of the game. The 80's roared in with a cultural, economic and direct financial boom and these professionals who were baseball card collecting kids in the 50's and 60's decided it's time to start spending some serious money on old baseball cards to rekindle that passion. A "passion" that is quickly fading away with today's kids.

[MyGuyTy]

I don't think anyone is "on edge" about anything there's nothing to be on edge about. Mike perhaps you can explain "on edge"? :confused:



I don't think anyone is on edge!!!!!!........who's on edge!!!!!!!.........there's NOTHING to be on edge about!!!!!!!.......EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY ON EDGE DAMNIT!!!!!!!...........LOL.

;)

[wonkaticket]

MyGuyTy you still here I figured you would have found a Kardashians forum or something the kids today are into, this hobby is doomed haven't you heard. :D

[teetwoohsix]

Love the different POV's. I agree with those who say that there is a huge difference between collectors of vintage/pre-war and modern collectors. Not that either group can't/doesn't appreciate the other- but I think it's a whole different world.

Also, someone made the point earlier that there are also pre-war collectors who aren't even into modern sports. There are many facets to consider, but I just look at the fact that even through this down economy we've been having for the past X amount of years, the auctions are still running and certain cards are bringing in nice money.

I am one who does not think the prices for miscuts, freaks, ghosts, etc. will take a nose dive. It's become a supply vs. demand issue-along with an understanding of rarity within the set (referring to T206's in particular). I don't think it's a passing fad, and I believe more people would be after them, if they weren't so pricey :D. There are so many ways to collect the set, and that's just one of them. I even like those freaks from the other sets as well.

I also think modern card collecting would be stronger if there was a limited supply of sets and prints. There are so many damn modern sets it just becomes too complicated for me. No manufactured rarity, have the rarity come from short prints in the limited sets.

I can't think of anything to collect that would be as exciting as T206's....I have a neighbor/friend who collects gold....it looks nice, but nothing exciting about it to me. Same with silver. To each their own.

Sincerely, Clayton

[MyGuyTy]

MyGuyTy you still here I figured you would have found a Kardashians forum or something the kids today are into, this hobby is doomed haven't you heard. :D

U still on edge huh? I didn't even know there was a Kardashian forum.....you must be a closet board member. Tell us the truth Johnny.....tell us the truth......:)

[MyGuyTy]

P.S. Not in the chocolate business anymore I hear my neighbors kids like Redbull more these days so the chocolate business will fall apart 20 years from now.....:)


Ooohhhhh........U mad now?............that's cute.

[glynparson]

I have not read the whole thread but few things stand out. 1 we are living longer and healthier into our older ages, you do not think this will help values stay up for a longer period? I know I do. Secondly my daughter is 7 and she tells me most of the boys in her class collect either football, baseball, gaming, or non sport cards of some sort. This idea that no kids collect cards is simply not true. I have 2 friends that own sports card shops in eastern PA and both tell me they have a number of kids that buy cards. Not in the numbers they did in our day but they don't need to. As log as those buying maintain a passion for the hobby we will be ok. Like Wonka said I have been hearing the sky will fall and all prices will crash since the late 70's. We have had some market corrections but most quality vintage things are worth more now than they used to be. And lastly we have a large growing Latino population and as they get more entrenched in America and their economic power grows I see this as positive for Baseball and vintage baseball items. Their culture is very pro baseball as is the Asian culture and as some have pointed out we live in a much more global society and it does not take many buyers to drive up prices on scarce items.

[EvilKing00]

The average age of the forum is 42 so lets say we all have 40 more years or so, give or take. So we know the hobby will continue to thrive over the next 40 or so years. Now lets take the current 20 year old, just getting out of school and struggling with bills. In 20 years they will be 40 and doing much better, married, prob a kid or 2. What will that 40 year old guy do with any spare time he has for a hobby? (now not every one will become a collector) Sure some will get into old cars some coins and yes some old cardboard.

I also think that with the internet, even more a regular item in todays world. Buying a card, weather its a new card or a T205 is only a click away.

And as far as baseball being popular, lol its doin just fine.

[the 'stache]

Funny, in yesterday's Dallas Morning News, I read an article that tv viewership for many of the most popular NFL teams was down--way down. Ratings for Dallas Cowboy games have dropped over 10%, and while you can try to explain it by their three straight 8-8 finishes, they're not the only big time franchise witnessing a drop. The Packers have witnessed a nearly 10% drop, too, as have a few other teams (which teams, and how much I do not recall, but I was surprised when I read the details). And the Packers, beyond this injury-plagued season, have been one of the top teams in the NFL, going 47-17 with a Super Bowl win the previous four seasons.

And I think this article was stupid. It's like asking a heterosexual male "do you like blonds, brunettes or redheads most?" If I had to choose one, I prefer blonds most of all, but I love brunettes and redheads, too. And I'm not going to stop looking at beautiful women who don't have blond hair. A beautiful woman is a beautiful woman. So, are brunettes going to suddenly start lining the pathways to monasteries because they're not "America's favorite?" Of course not. Trying to theorize that baseball is somehow in trouble because it's not the #1 choice is just a little absurd, imho. I know that Major League Baseball's attendance was down 2.9% in 2013. But keeping things in perspective, baseball had its sixth highest attendance ever this last year. 74,026,895 people went through the turnstiles.

Maybe MLB doesn't occupy the nation's attention the way it once did. As I've said before, there are more sports now, and a lot more entertainment choices. But I hardly think that the sport, or the hobby, is dying. The numbers simply do not support this hypothesis, and when a hack sports media outlet like ESPN tries to suggest that baseball is somehow "slipping", I just laugh.

[EvilKing00]

I know that Major League Baseball's attendance was down 2.9% in 2013.

All great points stash, and also lets not forget, the economy has sucked over the last 7 years. People are out of work, less funds to spend on going to games and even less to spend on hobbies. The economy will eventually get better and more people will have more money to spend.

[the 'stache]

All great points stash, and also lets not forget, the economy has sucked over the last 7 years. People are out of work, less funds to spend on going to games and even less to spend on hobbies. The economy will eventually get better and more people will have more money to spend.

That's true, Steve.

The attendance figures don't take into consideration people like me who can't go to the ballpark, but still subscribe to something like MLB.tv. I watch probably 100 games a year.

Yay for being a Brewers fan living in Texas. No blackouts. :D

[mrvster]

but the whole time the economy has worsened, the T206 market has been appreciating over that time......the whole time...

The wagner has never declined in value, only steadily risen over the last 100+ years!! T206 stay strong due to the Wagner correlation also;) .......

This is a strong area of vintage cardboard....a blue chip if you will;)

[mrvster]

All great points!.. Mike, you will collect these forever:D

[steve B]

Why did it take this hobby until the 1980's/1990's to start bringing in ENORMOUS prices for vintage items??? Because the interest in (over) paying silly prices for cards was non-existent despite the fact that there were in deed many "collectors" in this hobby. It was actually about the hobby itself and the love of the game. The 80's roared in with a cultural, economic and direct financial boom and these professionals who were baseball card collecting kids in the 50's and 60's decided it's time to start spending some serious money on old baseball cards to rekindle that passion. A "passion" that is quickly fading away with today's kids.

A big part of the hobby becoming bigger in the late70's to early 80's was the group of early dealers. There was also a huge surge in all popculture stuff at the time.

The early hobby was somewhat underground. People collected but it wasn't easy finding other people collecting the same stuff. Sports stuff was a small sideline to general ephemera, and if it turned up at all it was usually with an antique dealer who was more interested in other things. Then a few people started advertising in more mainstream publications like the sporting news. The ads I remember were ones offering something like 1500 for a Wagner. that got the idea into peoples minds that those old cards might be worth something.
I think another thing was growing interest in the sport because of Hank Aaron and Willie Mays. Mays faded, but Aarons getting closer to Babe Ruths record attracted a lot of attention from non-fans. And the record being older attracted interest to earlier baseball. (SABR and a few other things helped too)
Antiques as a pursuit had become a bit stuffy, Stuff had to be old enough, Usually 100 years and everything else was just "modern junk" But a lot of that modern junk was actually very solid aesthetically. And since there wasn't a whole lot of stuff from before 1880 besides furniture, paintings and china/pottery.
So there was a building interest in the other stuff. Especially small stuff that was interesting and had a potential theme to it. Baseball cards fit that really well. Lots of memorabilia didn't. Even into the early 80's - My first game used bat was only nine bucks, and everyone thought buying it was a bit nuts.

There was a lot of other stuff that could have become just as big. Records, postcards, toys, .........But while all that stuff took off too, it didn't have the elements that cards had.
collecting most of those things isn't finite. There are millions of different postcards, and even if you only collect one city there are always "new" ones you've never seen before. And there were no checklists, and few or none that were "special" Meaning they had the three huge elements that make an iconic item - Rarity but not TOO rare, a subject that crosses boundaries, and a great story.

Baseball cards had a lot going for them. They were small. The heavy lifting of making lists of what existed was largely done, making it possible to collect a particular group - maybe just t206 southern leaguers, maybe just bell brand, maybe just your favorite team. So there was a specific goal possible. People love a "complete" collection. And there were already a few "special" cards. The Wagner, Plank, maybe Magie and a couple of the T207s. The Wagner rose to the top because of the great story. And that drove interest.
(Just like the upside down airplane stamp, and the 1955 and 1972 double die pennies - None are truly rare, but they all have fascinating stories, the coins less so. Maybe the 1913 liberty nickels or 1804 dollars would be better examples for the story but the 1913s are truly rare.

ALL pop culture stuff got "big", but baseball cards had what it took to become HUGE.
Of course there's a potential for it to fade. But I've been hearing the "the hobby is doomed" since maybe 1981. I'm sure the guys who have been doing it longer heard it earlier.
I've seen articles from the 1890's proclaiming the end of stamp collecting.


Steve B

[ullmandds]

well stated steve b!

[Leon]

I am 52 yrs young. In 50 yrs I will be happy to be alive (maybe) and happier if I am not peeing on myself.

As I drove home yesterday I saw some little kids practicing baseball with their teams and parents watching. I think the hobby is fine for the next few generations...after that, not sure I care a whole lot. However, I do try to help collectors and the hobby and my goal is to leave it a tiny bit better than I found it. I do think this is a good and interesting debate. I don't see what we collect as much about baseball as I do about collecting rare pieces of art. I almost never watch MLB today but still love the game (and am about to start playing in a few softball leagues again). And lastly, I didn't get really involved in card collecting until my mid 30s.....

[Shouldabeena10]

Lots of different points of view, and certainly a topic we've all thought about many times.

I lean towards the "there will always be collectors of old stuff", and the fact that sports cards have well defined numbered sets, lots of history, and popular iconic figures, will help keep card collecting alive ... at least through our lifetime.

Although, I do worry that the hobby could see a premature death due to simple corruption and greed.

As much as everyone likes to think that the hobby only has a fairly small percentage of fakes and altered cards in it now ... how many more scandals and "bad press" can it absorb, before the smart money starts to walk away in disgust?

The fact of the matter is that we're all dealing with vary cheaply printed pieces of old cardboard, that really aren't that old, and can be easily reproduced ... by someone with the means to do it.

The U.S. Treasury has been scurrying about for the past 15 years, changing the way our money is printed, because the quality of the forgeries reached a point where no one could tell the difference. The only salvation of our current paper monetary system, is the fact that someone was smart enough, many years ago, to make it almost impossible to acquire the exact paper we used to print our money on. Those little pens that all the cashiers use to see if our $20's, $50's and $100's are bogus, are a slowly failing "last line of defense" because the counterfeiters are that good. The odds are that our grandchildren will not be using any form of paper money.

There's absolutely nothing in our hobby today that could stop a few "quality" forgery rings from slowly slipping bogus cards into the hobby.

The cardboard, ink, printing process, and cutting methods that were used to originally create our cards, can all be reproduced today ... and if done correctly, no one can tell the difference. Not on a new card, and not on a 100 year old card. I don't care how good you think you know cards and cardboard ... it can be done by the right people, with the right equipment.

If I were in the forgery business, and I was looking for a low risk / high reward way to make a living ... I'd get out of the counterfeit money printing business and move into sports cards .. where the only line of defense is a few grading companies and guys with opinions, that can neither prove or disprove their opinions.

Now with that said .... imagine that tomorrow, a story breaks on the news that a forgery print shop was raided over the weekend, and in it they found sheets of freshly printed T206's, lots of Mantles, Ruths, Jordans, and all kinds of new and old valuable cards. The cards had been slowly (and very calculatedly)trickled into the hobby over the past decade or so, in an effort not to flood the market or raise suspension. Investigators have determined that the forgery ring was responsible for tens of millions of dollars worth of fake cards, and estimating that as much as 20% of the higher priced cards in the hobby today may actually be nothing but fake reproductions.

What would a story like that do to the health of our hobby?

- Mike

PS - Sorry if that's too much doom and gloom and conspiracy theory, but I was in the printing industry for years, and it's a possibility that's always fascinated me.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Technology cannot duplicate the half lives of elements. All ""normal matter" particles radiate away at predictable rates. Bottom line is, you can imitate age, but you can't duplicate it.

[wonkaticket]

Ooohhhhh........U mad now?............that's cute.

No just joking with you I thought that was what we were doing, having playful fun with each other since we seem to have different views on how the hobby pays out. :)

Did I miss something? Or are you taking this more seriously than I am? :confused:

I’ve been very straight forward and nice in my counters. You feel the hobby is going to crash and burn because kids today don’t collect modern shiny etc. I think the hobby is going to be fine because I don’t feel modern shiny and baseball attendance really impact peoples collecting of odd pre-war material.

Heck the last few national shows will show you that it's two different worlds. The people lined up for autographs and doing modern pack rips are rarely if ever the folks who swing by Leon and Scott’s table 15min later to buy a D381.

I also collect lots of non-sports cards as well how much of that subject matter is driven by current pop trends? Heck tobacco cards even. Cigarettes are so taboo now why would folks still collect tobacco items…I just don’t think it’s as simple as you paint it.

Then the demographics/economy. I do agree this may effect every day basic sales. However I don’t think economic changes will really impact the examples you presented. The folks that are spending millions to tens of thousands at every turn are most likely not effected by economic times like the rest of us may be.

Bottom line the hobby like all hobbies is driven by many people collecting for varying reasons not all are card collectors from youth who are die hard baseball fans living from paycheck to paycheck.

[wonkaticket]

Of course there's a potential for it to fade. But I've been hearing the "the hobby is doomed" since maybe 1981. I'm sure the guys who have been doing it longer heard it earlier.

+1 Well said I agree.

[marcdelpercio]

I think that with any well-established collectibles market, there will be natural ebbs and flows in interest over an extended time. Was baseball huge in 1890? Not tremendously, but there were still lots of people who collected the cards. Then there was probably something of a lull in the hobby for 20 years as there was little supply of new material. But then a new generation of collectors emerged with the next "golden age" of collecting. Various factors will always divert attention...wars, depressions, changing tastes and technology, etc. But the card collecting market overall has weathered these changes for almost a century and a half and is stronger than ever.

I think that the popularity of baseball as a sport will not have more than a negligible effect on the card market. I am no die-hard baseball fan. I am 36 years old. I live in a major league city (well, technically...I'm a Royals fan :) ) and have attended maybe 10-15 games in the past 20 years. But I have been a passionate card collector for my entire life and imagine that I will continue to be. Of course, that's not to say that there will not be another 10, 15, 20 year lull in collecting as tastes change, but why would anybody be certain that tastes would not shift again in a decade or two and baseball would be right back in the forefront? Or the next cycle of card collecting popularity is born for whatever reason? I don't think that anything special happened in 1997 (or in 1989 or 1981 or 1952 or 1909) that caused a massive increase in interest in the game of baseball, but new and interesting card releases got many (kids AND adults) into the hobby. I see no reason why such a thing could not happen again and the cycle will continue as it has for generations.

[basesareempty]

I think that this generation of sports fan is moving toward autograph collecting. Look how people are willing to shell out $200-400 or more to get Willie Mays autograph and there will be 100+ people waiting in line at that price point. Many people enjoy the experience of meeting a player, getting an autograph, having it framed and putting it on a wall in their "man cave". They are willing and have the money to do so.This is money not being spent at the card dealers tables at major shows. The idea of sorting through a box of mid grade cards trying to complete a set from the 50's or 60's does not appeal to many of these people. It's all about experiences and interaction with these celebrities for this generation. Look at how Las Vegas and Disney appeal to their visitors. It's not about gambling and roller coasters, it's the total experience that gets them to come back again and again.

[freakhappy]

I don't believe that card collecting will reflect based on game attendance necessarily...I hardly ever go to games because I'd rather spend my money on cardboard than watch the game live :) I'm a huge fantasy player and literally pay attention to every game, but just not live.

Also, baseball and football are ultra popular in this country, so I don't see them going away anytime soon or ever...at least I hope not! Card collecting doesn't exactly have an exact correlation with watching or attending the games, but in some cases if an adult doesn't introduce their child to the hobby, they may never get involved and especially for the right reasons. Card collecting has really taken a turn the last twenty years or so and it's more of a money thing than a collecting for the love thing...that is one big reason I love this website along with the members of it...although a bunch collect expensive cardboard here, we also love and appreciate what we collect.

I can't speak for everyone, but I've always been a collector although I've taken a few years off before, but the chances someone will collect when they become an adult probably aren't greater if they don't collect at some point when they are a kid...not in every instance, but it seems very logical that it happens this way a great deal.

[MyGuyTy]

No just joking with you I thought that was what we were doing, having playful fun with each other since we seem to have different views on how the hobby pays out. :)

Did I miss something? Or are you taking this more seriously than I am? :confused:


These are baseball cards, how serious or personal can one take it? Lol.......now if you told me you were sleeping my wife.......you get it :D............wait are you?

In all seriousness I surely do hope the hobby continues to grow, I just can't help but be concerned at the path this sport and hobby, that we enjoy, are projecting. It's not gonna stop me from buying what I need for my set, but the thoughts of looking forward will still be part of my mindset.

[wonkaticket]

These are baseball cards, how serious or personal can one take it? Lol.......now if you told me you were sleeping my wife.......you get it :D............wait are you?

Agree, second question is your wife hot? :D

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Not only has football eroded baseball's popularity, but so has soccer as far as a child's participation as a sport. I started my son playing T-Ball and Coaches' Pitch Baseball and he decided to play soccer in the off season when he was 7 and from that point on didn't want to play baseball again and he's now 12 and still playing organized soccer and he's not in a minority.

[MyGuyTy]

Agree, second question is your wife hot? :D

....smokin hot little Latina ;)

Women are just drawn to guys who collect vintage!

With your collection Johnny, I'm sure you gotta have em lined up :cool:

[Al C.risafulli]

This is a great thread. I do have a couple of points to add.

I think the subject line, "baseball's falling popularity..." is a misnomer. I do not think that baseball's popularity is falling, and the numbers support me. Major League Baseball attendance in 2013 was its sixth best EVER. Using 2011 figures, Major League baseball was the top drawing professional sports league in the world for total attendance, and the fifth in the WORLD in terms of average attendance.

That's fifth in the world. The NFL is #1, growing an average of just over 67,000 per game - but I think comparisons between baseball and football are not apples to apples comparisons. I suspect that if baseball teams played in 80,000 capacity stadiums, 8 home games a year on days everyone has off, when the weather is cold and miserable, we might see different average attendance than we do when they play 81 home games, mostly at night, during the week, when the weather is more pleasant.

I think the same might be the case for television revenues.

In terms of collecting, my feeling is that the internet has taken its toll on a lot of different pastimes - including sports cards. That being said, I work with kids from 7 through 14 in two different youth baseball leagues and I'm impressed by the number of them that buy cards, as well as the number that seriously collect older ones. Frankly, it doesn't seem to be that much different, percentage-wise, than it was when I was a kid in the late 70s and early 80s. Perhaps since we're not kids ourselves, we're just not exposed to as many kids - and what they do - than we were when we were younger. Maybe it doesn't seem like kids collect because we aren't around kids as much as we were when we were kids ourselves.

To me, the card hobby seems to be big enough to sustain several manufacturers, who make multiple sets a year in multiple sports (and non-sports), and keep putting out new sets. It supports a secondary market that thrives on eBay and in what seems like a thousand different auction companies, three grading companies and three autograph authentication companies and umpteen message boards.

Ultimately, I think the sports card hobby will be just fine, for a long time. It may continue to change and evolve, it may experience rough patches, but I don't see it disappearing.

-Al

[Cardboard Junkie]

"Johnny"??......sounds like a bloody, budding, bromance. :rolleyes:

[MyGuyTy]

"Johnny"??......sounds like a bloody, budding, bromance. :rolleyes:

Shhhh........we don't need any of this getting out. Let's keep it professional ;)

[wonkaticket]

With your collection Johnny, I'm sure you gotta have em lined up :cool:

I wish I can’t afford the divorce. :)

Besides I haven’t met a check yet that digs baseball cards where are you finding these girls?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Take it from me....you can't afford NOT to get divorced. (3X):eek:

[MyGuyTy]

Besides I haven’t met a check yet that digs baseball cards where are you finding these girls?

Now if I told you that, you'd just steal em all away from me......

Alright maybe I'll tell you, but you gotta promise not share it with Leon.......then we're both screwed......and not in that sense :)

[wonkaticket]

Now if I told you that, you'd just steal em all away from me......

Alright maybe I'll tell you, but you gotta promise not share it with Leon.......then we're both screwed......and not in that sense :)

Leon is cool, he's a "Bro's Before Ho's" kinda of guy at least that's what his lower back tattoo says....

[MyGuyTy]

Leon is cool, he's a "Bro's Before Ho's" kinda of guy at least that's what his lower back tattoo says....


Good to know.....just don't share what his lower waist tattoo says, lol, we'll leave that to our imagination............on second thought not sure if imagining is a good idea.....

[Cardboard Junkie]

I picked the wrong day to quit sniffin glue with my zzuryp

[DerekMichael]

For me personally, the reason baseball attendance is down is because it is so effing expensive to go to a game, and it has turned into quite the "to do".

My Dad and I used to go see the Mets every time they came to play the Dodgers, and occasionally the Angels and Padres, but I am older now, and I have to pay my own way. If I want to drink some very crappy beer, it will cost $11 for a taste. More importantly, the atmosphere can be vile at times. I would not want to take my niece to a game, for example. People are screaming obscenities and even getting into absurd and pointless fighting etc. etc. etc. ... it is not all that "warm and fuzzy" anymore.

My Dad and I had gone to almost every game since the Piazza, Fonzie, Leiter days, so maybe since 2000 or so, for years and years and years ... then SNY came around in 2006 or so, and now we can watch the Mets anytime we want, and we can sit in the comfort of our own homes, and listen to Gary Cohen, Ron Darling, and Keith Hernandez. It has been glorious (not the team, the broadcast).

Thats what it is. Television broadcasts have gotten so good, and it is too damn expensive to have a day at the ballpark anymore !!! We still love the game and our favorite teams just as much ... I think ? Sign of the times, maybe ?

Derek

[bigtrain]

An interesting discussion, however, I think that it starts out with a false premise, that baseball has declined in popularity. While more people say that football is their favorite sport, that does not mean that fewer people like baseball. Since the seasons do not overlap too much, one rarely has to make a choice between sports. In a Gallup poll from 1938-39, 40% of American adults identified themselves as baseball fans. In 2006, that number was 49%. Let's say that considering margin of error and that it is now 2014,the numbers are roughly similar. 40% of American Adults consider themselves baseball fans. Comparing the population in 1939, about 131 million to the current population 317 million, it is apparent that there are at least twice as many baseball fans today as in the days when the sport was the American Pastime.

[packs]

I'm not sure if I think baseball is losing popularity either. If you look at the top ten largest sports contracts in history, 9 out of the top 10 are current baseball players (10 is a tie between Mayweather and Mark Teixiera). That money is generated and driven by fan revenue.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Not only has football eroded baseball's popularity, but so has soccer as far as a child's participation as a sport. I started my son playing T-Ball and Coaches' Pitch Baseball and he decided to play soccer in the off season when he was 7 and from that point on didn't want to play baseball again and he's now 12 and still playing organized soccer and he's not in a minority.

Soccer sucks. I can't stand watching it and am going to be so pissed if my son goes that route.

[packs]

Soccer is a nice sport but I have trouble understanding why some people think it will begin to occupy a major space in America. The same reasons people trot out to say baseball is dying are the same obstacles someone has to overcome to play soccer. Both sports have a similar amount of players on the field at one time. Both sports require a large amount of space and equipment.

But why is it that 9 players is too many to field a baseball team and purchasing equipment and needing an outdoor space are detriments when all of these requirements apply to soccer too. As well as football, which is even more specialized than baseball.

[rhettyeakley]

Soccer is a nice sport but I have trouble understanding why some people think it will begin to occupy a major space in America. The same reasons people trot out to say baseball is dying are the same obstacles someone has to overcome to play soccer. Both sports have a similar amount of players on the field at one time. Both sports require a large amount of space and equipment.

But why is it that 9 players is too many to field a baseball team and purchasing equipment and needing an outdoor space are detriments when all of these requirements apply to soccer too. As well as football, which is even more specialized than baseball.

Apart from hockey Baseball and basketball for the most part require the most specialized equipment to play, hard to play basketball without nets and a ball and hard to play baseball without gloves, ball and a bat. In order to play football or soccer on the other hand you really only need a patch of dirt and the ball for each sport. My entire youth was pretty much playing soccer in anywhere from 1 on 1 to 11 on 11, as long as you have roughly equal numbers on each side those two sports really only require a ball and possibly a little ingenuity.

[freakhappy]

Leon is cool, he's a "Bro's Before Ho's" kinda of guy at least that's what his lower back tattoo says....


Awwseeesssome! Thanks for that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

:eek:Leon is cool, he's a "Bro's Before Ho's" kinda of guy at least that's what his lower back tattoo says....

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Soccer sucks. I can't stand watching it and am going to be so pissed if my son goes that route.

Growing up I thought that soccer was a stupid game. When I got to college my friends had a team and invited me to play. I was surprised by how much fun it is. The best thing about the game is that you can play it throughout your life, unlike baseball.

Does anyone play in any baseball leagues? (obviously not HS or college)

[mrvster]

and take any unwanted, garbage, bad condition, no good T206 scrap off your hands......:D:):D

[Gradedcardman]

When I was toiling through grade school and later high school I knew very few others who collected. Today I know people who collect but in my city of 600,000 I know about a dozen. There are more I am sure who simply go the ebay route.

At the time I started collecting it was because I was a baseball fan. As the years moved on I became less of a fan of the sport and a fan of the history. I quit collecting for 10 years thanks to what Dave mentioned (2x) but always knew I would get back in when I could. I got back into collecting because its a great pastime and I enjoy the history.

I follow baseball now for a couple of reasons but for a new "fad" fantasy baseball.

As far as the collecting goes. To Johns point its the hunt for the non-common card that attracts me. I've completed the set less the big three once and now enjoy the hunt for my 42's. After that is complete, i'll have to come up with another angle but it is addicting and 90% of the people in the hobby are good to deal with.


As the Food Lion(NC grocery store chain) commercial says, "Thats just my 2 cents"

[t206fix]

I can't wait until the market plummets for baseball cards. I'm going to buy a bunch of red Hindus, Drums, Lenox's and Broadleafs. I'm talking a lot of them (because they'll be so cheap, you know). I'll even pick up a Ty Cobb back for a $100 or so. I'll crack them out of their cases and I'll get naked & roll around in them. Of course, it'll be about 40 years from now and I'll be in my 80s, so that will be fun. I'm sure a few Wagners will get stuck in my folds and cracks. But, who cares...

[mrvster]

collectors like you make this hobby enjoyable....you have put great cards in my collection, but I have to say your a true friend:)

there are a few collectors, to me, have truly made this a great hobby to me.....and they know who they are....AB- your at the top o' the list my friend:)

[MyGuyTy]

I can't wait until the market plummets for baseball cards. I'm going to buy a bunch of red Hindus, Drums, Lenox's and Broadleafs. I'm talking a lot of them (because they'll be so cheap, you know). I'll even pick up a Ty Cobb back for a $100 or so. I'll crack them out of their cases and I'll get naked & roll around in them. Of course, it'll be about 40 years from now and I'll be in my 80s, so that will be fun. I'm sure a few Wagners will get stuck in my folds and cracks. But, who cares...


That sounds like a party......

[Tabe]

baseball had the top spot until the early 1980s and then it was replaced by basketball and now it's football.
Basketball has never been the #1 sport in America. At its highest, it's gotten to #3. Baseball and football have always outpaced it in popularity, ratings, attendance, everything.

[MyGuyTy]

Basketball has never been the #1 sport in America. At its highest, it's gotten to #3. Baseball and football have always outpaced it in popularity, ratings, attendance, everything.

Basketball has never and will never appeal to me. I have nothing in common with that sport. For me it's baseball, football and hockey........I do enjoy F1 as well :cool:

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Last Saturday night I attended a fundraiser for a local high school/American Legion program. The speakers included three former major leaguers and there were four college coaches in attendance.

It was attended by 250 folks on a cold, cold night in Arkansas. I think baseball is alive and well. Parents are pulling the kids away from football because of the injury publicity and soccer is not in our DNA.

The NFL is not itself any favors with its' own network where the English language is not used well by former or current players and sportsmanship seems to be unimportant!

[Nashvol]

Last Thursday night I attended a sold-out banquet of 600+ here in Nashville with an ex-major leaguer as speaker, and nine other ex-major league players and four D1 college coaches in attendance, too.

Today we had a ground-breaking ceremony for a new ballpark for the AAA Nashville Sounds with a major league GM, the president of the minor leagues, and two current major league players attending. Even in 20-degree weather, the crowd exceeded all expectations.

In Music City, baseball is indeed alive and well...

[ullmandds]

What does Keith O think?

http://deadspin.com/keith-olbermann-on-why-no-one-watches-baseball-anymore-1452010334

[xcgrammer]

John for your sake, my sake and the sake of everyone on this board who loves thus hobby, I hope you're right. However I remain skeptical as interest baseball and the cards themselves continues to fade with every passing year amongst the next generation of "money".

Also to add, the casual "sophisticated" collector of anything vintage is SUCH a small minority in the larger scope. The majority of collectors have emotional ties to what they're collecting and handing out a king's ransom for. Just because I enjoy vintage cards, doesn't mean I'll go out and drop $10,000 on a vase from the 1800's. Why do you think the 80's just happened to be the start of the baseball card collecting explosion? Because that was the first generation of 30 something year olds who remember the golden age of being a kid in the 50's and 60's when the baseball card with bubble gum craze officially kicked into a whole different level. That money in the 80's and 90's is still what's hanging on to the hobby prices today......30 years from now, new money takes over with new "interests" and new "hobbies" while the small demographic of men in their 30's and 40's right now who enjoy paying thousands upon thousands for these cards, will most likely be dead and having their collections dispersed.

Completely agree with everything you have said. The hobby is being driven by the kids of the 50s - 90s right now and when we are all gone this hobby is gonna nose dive and that is why I collect what I like regardless of price. Anyone who doesn't see that inevitable shrinking numbers of collectors will drive prices down is kidding themselves. I think the market for comic books however which I have no interest in whatsoever will remain strong because that is what kids are into now. Superhereoes. SMH

[teetwoohsix]

Well, the thing is, there are many collectors of these cards who do not spend anywhere near $10,000.00 on a card. Sure, some collectors have deep pockets and buy what they like regardless of the price- I would too if I could afford to. But, you don't have to be a millionaire to collect these cards. There are also collectors with big money buying cards, people who like their privacy, and don't post on the internet. I only bring that up because there are more collectors of these cards than you see here on Net54 (although I'm sure they read Net54 :D).

I do not think the popularity in baseball is falling at an alarming rate, and I do not think the hobby will drop in 40 years........these cards have to go somewhere! Plus, truth is, there's a ton of people who have never heard of pre-war cards....I used to be one of them! There are a ton of people who, if asked about vintage baseball cards, will tell you about cards they had as a kid from the 50's and 60's......clueless about pre-war cards.

Anyhow, I think people will collect these cards, as long as the planet survives.........

Sincerely, Clayton

[Jason]

Maybe then I can afford a T210 JJ!

[Jeffrompa]

When you are 15 not too many kids will collect what their father does .

When you are 25 you are too busy to collect what your Father does .

When you are 35 you might collect what your Father does if you wife lets you .

At 45 you just do it and enjoy it .

I sure hope the cards don't go the way of stamps . I can't compete in the high dollar stamp auctions . The cards may get to be the same where the primo stuff is out of reach .

[teetwoohsix]

I typed this out and posted it a long time ago in another thread, but here is an article in a collectibles magazine from 1974......

Sincerely, Clayton

[wonkaticket]

I have a friend who is a huge sports fan season tickets best seats all sports etc. He however isn’t a baseball fan. As I have said prior I don’t follow all of the nuances of modern baseball so I’m not sure if he’s right.

His reasoning is modern baseball is too predictable and no fun. He says that the game is really controlled by a few dynasty’s/teams and that no matter how much you follow it you’re pretty much going to know who makes the finals the same guys sort of over and over. So if your team isn’t one of those teams your sort of just along for another boring ride to nowhere. He pointed out with other sports such as football your team can have bad years but every now and then there’s a shake up and your team can have a chance…not so much with baseball he said.

Again not sure if he’s on the money or not love to hear folks inputs.

[packs]

I don't think that's true really.

Going back to 2003, 7 different teams have won the World Series.

Going back to 2003, 8 different teams have won the Super Bowl.

Going back to 2003, only 5 different NBA teams have won the championship.

[tschock]

I don't think that's true really.

Going back to 2003, 7 different teams have won the World Series.

Going back to 2003, 8 different teams have won the Super Bowl.

Going back to 2003, only 5 different NBA teams have won the championship.

Also... going back 20 years:

11 different SB champions.
10 different WS champions.
8 additional SB teams (losers).
8 additional WS teams (losers).

There is reality and there is perception. :)

[steve B]

And that perception I think comes from how the leagues differ.

Football has 32 teams and 12 make the playoffs.
Plus they have a salary cap, free agency, and generally short careers leading to a lot of turnover and not a lot of long term contracts.

Baseball has 30 teams and 10 make the playoffs. Those teams are also in fewer divisions, so there's less chance of any team making the playoffs.
Baseball also has no real salary cap, free agency, and longer careers leading to more long term contracts. That would seem to make things easier for the teams with more money. So a small market team is almost constantly rebuilding around someone new while the big market teams can lock in a great player for 5-10 years if they want to. (I've never really understood a young player wanting a long term contract- one of the most bizarre things I've heard about contracts was I think Mo Vaughn. "I'll only cost more next year, they should give me a long term contract" ?? If I felt I'd be making more next year and increasing for the next several, why would I want a long term contract at this years rate?)

So the impression is that the big money teams lock in all the good players leaving the small market teams out of it. Success as a team isn't entirely about how many stars you can sign. Great players help, but there are loads of teams that paid big money to finish out of the playoffs.

Granted, not every small market team is the As. Some problems are probably organizational problems making the team horrible for years. That's also true in football. There are teams that are clueless from the top down. Browns, Jets,recently the Cowboys, probably others. A team might not be any good with the players and coach/manager they have, but they will never get good if there's a new coach every year. there are exceptions, The 2012 RedSox with Valentine, had the talent and were just a bad team. Unless there's a situation like that, teams should hire the coach they think is the best fit, and give them a chance for more than a year.

I can't really say much about Basketball or Hockey. I don't watch much of either these days. Basketball started losing me in 96. Saw the second "dream team" at the Olympics They won by some huge margin but looked awful doing it. One guy missed an alleyoop dunk two times in a row before he finally got it. As much as the 92 team showed what the sport could be the 96 team showed what it should NOT be but was becoming. Just a collection of set pieces for a few people to display some skills of dubious value.
Hockey can no longer figure out just what teams are in the NHL, and when the season is. To think they were doing so well a few years ago and blew it all with two work stoppages over -- I'm not sure just what. Went from primetime network coverage to OLN or maybe ESPN2 overnight.

Steve B

[wonkaticket]

Steve B, that's sort of the breakdown my buddy was saying....true or not that was his take.....on why he's not a huge baseball fan etc.

[itjclarke]

Also... going back 20 years:

11 different SB champions.
10 different WS champions.
8 additional SB teams (losers).
8 additional WS teams (losers).

There is reality and there is perception. :)

Absolutely. Teams like the 2010 and 2012 WS champ Giants were definitely not built like major market (media market) powerhouses. They won mainly through pitching and defense (see Gregor Blanco and Brandon Crawford in 2012 WS), while having an only middle teir offense... but an offense with grit that got timely hitting and great execution (hit run, bunt, butcher play, etc). Some small market teams like the Rays, Reds, A's have consistently competed these past several years.. The A's almost embarrassingly so the last 2 years against the Angels who bought an All Star team... And some large market teams have consistently floundered like the Mets and Cubs.

Clearly major market teams have an advantage in that they can consistently sign big free agents (Hamilton/Pujols), take bigger risks (Tanaka), and have room to fail when those risks don't pan out. Whereas small market teams have much less margin for error and can be totally buried by a single mistake.. Very curious to see how M's do with Cano's contract. If he's a .280 / 15 HR hitter there, that team could be stuck for a long time.

Regardless, to me it's great watching the smaller market teams that can maneuver and make it work by drafting well and developing that talent... Then often locking that talent up eary and relatively cheap by signing extensions through arbitration and the first couple free agent years. I think baseball is actually more interesting for these inequities, and it also often gives the casual fan an easy underdog to root for come October. MLB and ESPN need to wake up and get on board now and work harder to promote great stories like the Pirates/A's/Rays.. Maybe this year the Royals, and ease up on their NY/Boston fetish.

[obcbobd]

MLB and ESPN need .. ease up on their NY/Boston fetish.

As a die hard Boston Red Sox fan I agree 100%!

[t206trader]

Absolutely. Teams like the 2010 and 2012 WS champ Giants were definitely not built like major market (media market) powerhouses. They won mainly through pitching and defense (see Gregor Blanco and Brandon Crawford in 2012 WS), while having an only middle teir offense... but an offense with grit that got timely hitting and great execution (hit run, bunt, butcher play, etc). Some small market teams like the Rays, Reds, A's have consistently competed these past several years.. The A's almost embarrassingly so the last 2 years against the Angels who bought an All Star team... And some large market teams have consistently floundered like the Mets and Cubs.

Clearly major market teams have an advantage in that they can consistently sign big free agents (Hamilton/Pujols), take bigger risks (Tanaka), and have room to fail when those risks don't pan out. Whereas small market teams have much less margin for error and can be totally buried by a single mistake.. Very curious to see how M's do with Cano's contract. If he's a .280 / 15 HR hitter there, that team could be stuck for a long time.

Regardless, to me it's great watching the smaller market teams that can maneuver and make it work by drafting well and developing that talent... Then often locking that talent up eary and relatively cheap by signing extensions through arbitration and the first couple free agent years. I think baseball is actually more interesting for these inequities, and it also often gives the casual fan an easy underdog to root for come October. MLB and ESPN need to wake up and get on board now and work harder to promote great stories like the Pirates/A's/Rays.. Maybe this year the Royals, and ease up on their NY/Boston fetish.

Reds are actually a mid market team with a higher payroll than the Cubs or Mets (who actually have a rather small payroll). If we look at the 8 highest payrolls from last year we see that, in fact, larger payrolls do equal better and more likely championship teams.

N.Y. Yankees $230,401,445

Los Angeles Dodgers 214,830,909

Philadelphia 159,985,714

Boston 157,594,786

Detroit 150,471,844

Los Angeles Angels 141,896,250

San Francisco 138,042,111

Texas 128,714,475

None of the bottom 6 playoff teams in terms of payroll last season won a series past the wildcard. Parity isn't as good in baseball as some would like to think it is.

[tschock]

And that perception I think comes from how the leagues differ.

Football has 32 teams and 12 make the playoffs.
Plus they have a salary cap, free agency, and generally short careers leading to a lot of turnover and not a lot of long term contracts.

Baseball has 30 teams and 10 make the playoffs. Those teams are also in fewer divisions, so there's less chance of any team making the playoffs. ...

Steve B


Great points and I agree with a lot of what you said. But the part I left quoted got me thinking around the expectations of what a chance at a championship should be and how it's tied into the regular season.

For instance, in football there are only 16 games, so it makes sense (to me) that more teams should be involved with the playoff structure since it is such as short season (game-wise).

The question then is with baseball's 162 game season, what is someone's expectation of how many teams should be involved in a playoff structure? One school of thought is that 162 games should give a good indication of which teams are the best and there should be only a few teams vying for a championship after such as long season. Another is that more teams should be involved (to make it more interesting/exciting?).

I totally understand the real reason playoffs were expanded was money, but that's beside the point. The possibility for a championship is what matters to the fan. And I think which school of thought you subscribe to regarding the number of teams in the playoffs will influence your perception as well.

I also think that there could be a correlation between one's preference on the baseball division/playoff structure and one's social/political views, but we'll leave that for the sociologists. :)

[teetwoohsix]

Tough to predict where this hobby is headed, however I will say one thing, it's a pretty safe bet that 25-30 years from now when this new generation is the driving force behind our economy nobody will be forking over $10,000 for a simple drum T206 card or "ghost" or "printing error". Guys that are in their late 30's to early 50's right now, who are the ones driving the prices, will either be retired and on a budget or dead. Baseball card "collecting" as a hobby is completely non-existent with today's kids. These are same kids who won't give a crap about collecting "vintage" cards 25-30 years from now and certainly won't be paying 10's of thousands of dollars for them.

You wanna know what will be the hot "collector" items of the next generation bringing ridiculous prices? Vintage video game consoles and 90's era Japanese sports cars. Just like we grew up with the hot item being baseball cards, those items that I mentioned will be what kids "collect" when they hit their 30's.

This post is why I posted that article about baseball card collecting from 1974, I figured it was an interesting way to gauge where the hobby was 40 years ago (I was about 3 years old when that article was written) and where it is at today. Seeing that I think a higher percentage of people on the board are in the 40(ish) range, many of them were around that young when the article was written as well. There are many on the board who were probably collecting then, and may refer to it as "the good ol' days" :D

An interesting thing to do would be to also take a look at salaries, attendance figures,etc. from 40 years back- if you think these things have to do with the longevity of the hobby- and compare both status of the hobby then and game attendance figures, salaries, etc. and see how they both stack up compared to now, in 2014. In that article, the Honus Wagner T206 was also considered "The Holy Grail" of baseball cards.......and cited a recent sale of a whopping $1,500.00!! :)

Sincerely, Clayton

[Bocabirdman]

The results are potentially skewed by using percentages. Given the increase in legal residents of the U.S., the actually number of folks who call baseball their favorite sport may have in fact, increased. Yet, the overall "percentage" of the population may have decreased. In addition, an overwhelming percentage of new U.S. residents have immigrated from parts of the world where the answer to the question, "What is your favorite sport?" is likely to not be baseball or American Football, but soccer (football). Ergo, the baseball "percentage" likely suffers. This could very well be a typical case of someone (not the OP) presenting "the facts" in a convenient fashion to lend credence to their point of view. Statistics can usually be spun to support what ever you want them to support.:D

[teetwoohsix]

The results are potentially skewed by using percentages. Given the increase in legal residents of the U.S., the actually number of folks who call baseball their favorite sport may have in fact, increased. Yet, the overall "percentage" of the population may have decreased. In addition, an overwhelming percentage of new U.S. residents have immigrated from parts of the world where the answer to the question, "What is your favorite sport?" is likely to not be baseball or American Football, but soccer (football). Ergo, the baseball "percentage" likely suffers. This could very well be a typical case of someone (not the OP) presenting "the facts" in a convenient fashion to lend credence to their point of view. Statistics can usually be spun to support what ever you want them to support.:D

True, I see your point. When I was in the 5th grade, we actively put together football teams during our lunch breaks. A kid from South Africa started attending our school and was in my class, and we became great friends. He actually had all of us playing soccer after awhile, as that was the popular sport where he was from. He also taught me how to play tennis (he was extremely good at it!) as that was very popular there too.

I also remember eating dinner at his home, and thought it was strange how everyone was eating with their forks upside down :o:D

Back on topic....I think the hobby will be just fine ;)

Sincerely, Clayton

[Tabe]

Hockey can no longer figure out just what teams are in the NHL, and when the season is. To think they were doing so well a few years ago and blew it all with two work stoppages over -- I'm not sure just what. Went from primetime network coverage to OLN or maybe ESPN2 overnight.
Hockey is bigger, more popular, and drawing better ratings than it has in a long, long time. Certainly a lot more than before the last stoppage. It has never had primetime network coverage - at least in the last 30 years - outside of Canada. When it was on ESPN and ESPN2, that cable network intentionally tried to bury the league by constantly shuffling games around, pre-empting them, burying coverage in SportsCenter, or reducing coverage to simply highlights of fighting. They did this to appeal to the NBA and NFL and tank the value of the NHL TV contract. It worked. The NHL walked away and wandered off to OLN and was lost in the woods for a bit. Now the NHL has regular national coverage on NBCSN - which gets generally the same amount of households as ESPN - and has a massive ratings/attendance hit in its annual Winter Classic game. Attendance is the highest, %-wise, of any of the four major leagues. Revenues are up. The most recent TV contract is worth $2 billion.

In other words, hockey is doing just fine and is actually growing. The narrative from 2004 isn't true anymore.

[itjclarke]

Reds are actually a mid market team with a higher payroll than the Cubs or Mets (who actually have a rather small payroll). If we look at the 8 highest payrolls from last year we see that, in fact, larger payrolls do equal better and more likely championship teams.

None of the bottom 6 playoff teams in terms of payroll last season won a series past the wildcard. Parity isn't as good in baseball as some would like to think it is.

Wasn't necessarily saying baseball has good "parity". I was more making the point that I like the plotlines/drama its salary inequities help create (just my opinion). That's not saying I think it's fair/balanced system, or that I don't get frustrated watching huge spenders (like the Yanks, Dodgers, Sox, etc) seemingly snatch up the top 2-3 major free agents each year, I do. However, I think most major sports make for better viewing when there are a few clear powers and a bunch of scrappy challengers nipping at their heals. I mean how fun was it to root for whoever was playing the early to mid 90's Duke teams come March, or the 90's Cowboys (or my Niners).. especially when your team is no longer in it.

Re team salaries- of the top 8 payroll teams you list, 3 made the playoffs in 2013. Of the 10 total play off participants, just as many teams (3) had bottom 3rd payrolls, and the other 4 teams were in the middle 3rd. That's a pretty even spread.. and just about any team that makes the postseason has a shot. Regardless of salary tier, if you have a strong 1-2 (-3-4) staff and a bit of hitting, you've got a chance. As was the case with 2010 Giants, their playoff rotation 1 thru 4, set up man, and closer were ALL homegrown, young and modestly paid (any team that drafts well has a shot to do this) and were the keys to their victory. Even though their $98 mill payroll was 10th in baseball, $31 mill of that hardly contributed to either their division championship or playoff/WS run (Zito was left off postseason roster, Rowand was the 4th outfielder). This to me means any well constructed team built on lower cost young home grown talent has a shot to get it done against the huge $$$ teams.

[glynparson]

but they do not have a shot year in and year out. It is also much tougher to have a kansas city chiefs type turnaround in one year in baseball. There are more baseball teams at the start of each season with absolutely 0 chance of winning it all then there are in football.

[t206trader]

Wasn't necessarily saying baseball has good "parity". I was more making the point that I like the plotlines/drama its salary inequities help create (just my opinion). That's not saying I think it's fair/balanced system, or that I don't get frustrated watching huge spenders (like the Yanks, Dodgers, Sox, etc) seemingly snatch up the top 2-3 major free agents each year, I do. However, I think most major sports make for better viewing when there are a few clear powers and a bunch of scrappy challengers nipping at their heals. I mean how fun was it to root for whoever was playing the early to mid 90's Duke teams come March, or the 90's Cowboys (or my Niners).. especially when your team is no longer in it.

Re team salaries- of the top 8 payroll teams you list, 3 made the playoffs in 2013. Of the 10 total play off participants, just as many teams (3) had bottom 3rd payrolls, and the other 4 teams were in the middle 3rd. That's a pretty even spread.. and just about any team that makes the postseason has a shot. Regardless of salary tier, if you have a strong 1-2 (-3-4) staff and a bit of hitting, you've got a chance. As was the case with 2010 Giants, their playoff rotation 1 thru 4, set up man, and closer were ALL homegrown, young and modestly paid (any team that drafts well has a shot to do this) and were the keys to their victory. Even though their $98 mill payroll was 10th in baseball, $31 mill of that hardly contributed to either their division championship or playoff/WS run (Zito was left off postseason roster, Rowand was the 4th outfielder). This to me means any well constructed team built on lower cost young home grown talent has a shot to get it done against the huge $$$ teams.

I agree that it makes for an interesting narrative. My point with the salary list was simply to illustrate that 7 of the last 8 championship squads were in roughly the top 7 in terms of payroll. The Cinderella story is interesting just like it is in college basketball, unfortunately it just doesn't ever pan out in either sport save for a very few rare occasions.

[steve B]

Hockey is bigger, more popular, and drawing better ratings than it has in a long, long time. Certainly a lot more than before the last stoppage. It has never had primetime network coverage - at least in the last 30 years - outside of Canada. When it was on ESPN and ESPN2, that cable network intentionally tried to bury the league by constantly shuffling games around, pre-empting them, burying coverage in SportsCenter, or reducing coverage to simply highlights of fighting. They did this to appeal to the NBA and NFL and tank the value of the NHL TV contract. It worked. The NHL walked away and wandered off to OLN and was lost in the woods for a bit. Now the NHL has regular national coverage on NBCSN - which gets generally the same amount of households as ESPN - and has a massive ratings/attendance hit in its annual Winter Classic game. Attendance is the highest, %-wise, of any of the four major leagues. Revenues are up. The most recent TV contract is worth $2 billion.

In other words, hockey is doing just fine and is actually growing. The narrative from 2004 isn't true anymore.

Interesting. You can tell I haven't followed it all that closely for some time.

I wonder if I'm confusing the once great local coverage for national coverage. The Bruins were on TV a lot before the first stoppage, hardly at all after. Even NESN backed off a lot.
ESPN shuffling them around must have really hurt, that's almost a guarantee of poor ratings for any show. (The local outlet did that to Babylon 5) The league being on OLN was a big surprise, since OLN at the time was sort of like ESPN when it began, showing pretty much any sporting event they could.

Hopefully they'll continue building back up. I think there's probably a lot of international interest which probably helps (I could be wrong)

Steve B

[thecatspajamas]

I typed this out and posted it a long time ago in another thread, but here is an article in a collectibles magazine from 1974......

Sincerely, Clayton

"Acquire"

No opinion on the topic at hand, but I just had to say that I LOVE that title for a collectibles magazine. It pretty well sums it up, in one word, regardless of what genre of collectibles you are talking about.

[teetwoohsix]

"Acquire"

No opinion on the topic at hand, but I just had to say that I LOVE that title for a collectibles magazine. It pretty well sums it up, in one word, regardless of what genre of collectibles you are talking about.

Yeah, it's a great name for sure :D

It's interesting to read about the other types of items people were collecting back then. Toward the end of the article about collecting gold, they were contemplating whether gold would ever hit $300.00 an ounce....and Dr. Franz Pick, an internationally recognized currency expert and a premier advocate of hard money, appears convinced gold will be selling at $400.00 within the predictable future :D:D

Gotta love it :)

Sincerely, Clayton

[itjclarke]

The Cinderella story is interesting just like it is in college basketball, unfortunately it just doesn't ever pan out in either sport save for a very few rare occasions.

For me, that's part of the appeal... if Cinderella teams were to actually win every other year, it's no longer as exciting. I was rooting hard for Butler during their recent tournement runs and the fact they came up short both times took little or nothing away from the fun. Had they won both years, or had VCU or George Mason won titles a few years earlier, these Villanova/NC State types of runs would cease being so exceptional. Too much parity often means there are no truly dominant teams... and you need dominant teams to make the David v Goliath matchups interesting. The BCS screwed up in so many ways, but those few times it pitted the Utahs/Boise States v the Alabamas/Oklahomas, it was AWESOME. MLB's current imbalance provides much opportunity each postseason for these types of matchups.

[freakhappy]

Well said, Ian!


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