Help with Goodwin Cobb Blank Back

[Blunder19]

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to ask the board for some help on this cobb... I have some doubts on it being a true blank back.. and if I am going to be a bidder on the card I want to be sure it is not altered.

Here are the concerns:

1) I have never (nor has any other collector I spoke with) seen a non-SLer with a double that has a blank back... So if only Slers are known to exist with a possible 2nd Blank back.. how does the cobb have a second?

Can anyone else provide me with a non southern leaguer example where 2 blank backs have been confirmed?

2) When I look at the scan on Goodwins site... it looks like the back is not smooth.. almost like there is some paperloss... also i see some hints of red around the top right of the back and the middle left of the back...

Do you think this card could have been skinned from a Sweet Cap back and made its way past SGC?

I have confirmed the same concerns with some of my collector friends... Any information on the above is greatly appreciated.

[wonkaticket]

That card to me does not look right to much hair on that back.....unless I could hold that card out of the holder I would put my wallet back in my front pocket.

Just my two cents Jamie for what ever that's worth and in today's economy I think its trading at about 1.2 cents as of Friday.

Cheers,

John

[Cardboard Junkie]

Seems a little fishy to me. I would want to examine it raw, see what the thickness feels like, and the texture of the back. But I'm not a bidder.

[iwantitiwinit]

I'm bidding on a few cards in this auction and I passed right over the Cobb. It just doesn't look right. It looks as if its two cards pressed together to me. The areas that are missing printing on the front don't look like normal blank areas that result after chipping. To me it appears as if the front was skinned off and affixed to a blank. Given what I expect the top bid to be I don't feel it worth the risk, however, if you don't crack it out of the slab it'll hold it's value I suspect.

[Rob D.]

If that card was a Lajoie and not a Cobb, I would not bid on it.

[Ladder7]

Stunned, SGC slabbed it... Heh, tough economic times.

[calvindog]

I'm going to win this card cheap!

[thehoodedcoder]

the card is small in both height and width. i think its bogus.

kevin

[wonkaticket]

I'm going to win this card cheap!

Jeff that's not nice you know how sensitive I am..... :)

[Blunder19]

Any examples of a non southern leaguer with 2 confirmed blank backs?

I'm beginning to worry this card is not legit.

If the winner of the card determines the card is altered, would the auction house be responsible to reimburse the winner?

[Rob D.]

If the winner of the card determines the card is altered, would the auction house be responsible to reimburse the winner?

Lol.

[ullmandds]

def looks suspicious to me...I really don't like the edges of the card as well as the unusual little outward piece of paper jutting out of the lower left...just strange?

[Sean]

If that card was a Lajoie and not a Cobb, I would not bid on it.

Rob, excellent way to describe your reluctance to bid. :)

[4815162342]

If the winner of the card determines the card is altered, would the auction house be responsible to reimburse the winner?

Lol.

I believe it would be the TPG's responsibility.

[z28jd]

I don't follow blank backs close enough to know if more than one exists of any non-SL card, but I will say that it shouldn't be impossible. We know cards were printed multiple times on the same sheet and you would have to assume if someone is keeping a scrap card, they were more likely to save a Cobb than some common player. Two could exist just from going to the same person off the same sheet. Also, the cut/size of a card shouldn't matter since they weren't necessarily factory cut. That being said, I don't trust blank backs unless I've seen them in person or someone I trust a lot.

[Jaybird]

Any examples of a non southern leaguer with 2 confirmed blank backs?

I'm beginning to worry this card is not legit.

If the winner of the card determines the card is altered, would the auction house be responsible to reimburse the winner?


I've seen scans of two different cards of Kroh.

But I think that you should judge the card not based on whether or not it should exist but on what others have talked about which is what the card looks like in relation to other T206 blank backs.

Also, the dimensions have nothing to do with it since it was hand cut. I've seen some oversize and some undersize with all being hand cut in my opinion. Even ones that look sharp and clean and even show signs of handcutting to me.

Anyway, I'm not offering an opinion as to legitimacy because I haven't seen it in hand. But just wanted to put these thoughts out there.

[Tao_Moko]

It is clearly altered and the slab should reflect it.

[Leon]

For me it's too hard to tell from the scan. There is a distinct possibility the rough parts we see on the back could be from album removal. I do see some smooth spots too, which to me, are a good sign. I wouldn't give more of an opinion unless i could personally loupe it.

[atx840]

I was going to post a similar thread after talking to Jamie but as I was doing a bit of research I've come across a second Chance yellow blank back. Both are super prints. Waiting for scans.

I too believe its sketchy, if the fake Magie's got by then its possible someone could remove the entire back ad and get it slabbed. I'd hold off.

[Tao_Moko]

For me it's too hard to tell from the scan. There is a distinct possibility the rough parts we see on the back could be from album removal. I do see some smooth spots too, which to me, are a good sign. I wouldn't give more of an opinion unless i could personally loupe it.

After 29 years of collecting and handling T206 it can sometimes be too easy to jump to conclusions. Didn't take long to assume that this card is altered/unintentionally compromised, but I will hold a tiny place for all of the identifiers to be explained and this to be a true blank back. Just so I'm on track - are we suggesting that this card was potentially cut and pasted into a book and then removed with residue remaining on the back? Is it hand cut scrap, factory cut scrap, or trimmed at a later date? If there is residue and the grader recognized it than can that information be obtained? Would be helpful info now that it's slabbed and cannot be touched.

[E93]

I don't follow blank backs close enough to know if more than one exists of any non-SL card, but I will say that it shouldn't be impossible. We know cards were printed multiple times on the same sheet and you would have to assume if someone is keeping a scrap card, they were more likely to save a Cobb than some common player. Two could exist just from going to the same person off the same sheet. Also, the cut/size of a card shouldn't matter since they weren't necessarily factory cut. That being said, I don't trust blank backs unless I've seen them in person or someone I trust a lot.

+1

It is hard for me to draw definitive conclusions just from the scan on this one.
JimB

[steve B]

After 29 years of collecting and handling T206 it can sometimes be too easy to jump to conclusions. Didn't take long to assume that this card is altered/unintentionally compromised, but I will hold a tiny place for all of the identifiers to be explained and this to be a true blank back. Just so I'm on track - are we suggesting that this card was potentially cut and pasted into a book and then removed with residue remaining on the back? Is it hand cut scrap, factory cut scrap, or trimmed at a later date? If there is residue and the grader recognized it than can that information be obtained? Would be helpful info now that it's slabbed and cannot be touched.

are we suggesting that this card was potentially cut and pasted into a book and then removed with residue remaining on the back?

Yes, it's a possibility

Is it hand cut scrap?

If it's a blank back -Yes.

factory cut scrap?

Probably not. Too uneven and it doesn't appear at all factory cut.

trimmed at a later date?

If it's a fake blank back- Yes. If real? still possibly yes.

If there is residue and the grader recognized it than can that information be obtained?

As far as I know that information isn't available. I don't know if the companies keep any notes about observations during grading.
==============
I'm not convinced about the card itself, I'd really want to see it in person before spending much on it. The damage on the front isn't all that bothersome. I've seen it before and it might be bug damage. The fuzz on the back is the problem, either it's scrapbook residue, or remnants of the original back.


Steve B

[Leon]

... Just so I'm on track - are we suggesting that this card was potentially cut and pasted into a book and then removed with residue remaining on the back? ....

Yes sort of, I am suggesting that it is possible the rough part is from scrapbook removal, damaging the paper of an otherwise blank back. And that damaged part is the rough area(s) we see. I have personally damaged cards that way, more than once. (scrapbook removal) I am not saying that is what happened here, only that it is possible. As I said, too hard for me to give a better opinion from the scan/pic shown. And if experts are more sure than I, then so be it. I don't study T206 as much as many in this thread, nor do I want to :).

[Jaybird]

I think it's real. There I said it. The arguments against are not convincing. I've held many blank backs. If the scuffing on the back is the only concern, I don't buy it. The scan is terrible but that doesn't make it a bad card. When you see cards with back damage, what do you normally see? Glue residue surrounding areas of non-damage. On a blank back, these will show through as smooth areas surrounding scuffed areas. The glue residue is present on the Goodwin card as well as the scuffed areas. It seems to have been removed from a scrapbook hastily is all. Basically what Leon has been saying. But it's easy to form a conspiracy theory. As long as we're doing that, how about the conspiracy theory of people keeping the price low?

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/ScreenShot2014-01-12at110747AM_zpsed3586cd.pnghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/ScreenShot2014-01-12at111157AM_zps747b8609.png

[Leon]

I think it's real. There I said it. The arguments against are not convincing. I've held many blank backs. If the scuffing on the back is the only concern, I don't buy it. The scan is terrible but that doesn't make it a bad card. When you see cards with back damage, what do you normally see? Glue residue surrounding areas of non-damage. On a blank back, these will show through as smooth areas surrounding scuffed areas. The glue residue is present on the Goodwin card as well as the scuffed areas. It seems to have been removed from a scrapbook hastily is all. Basically what Leon has been saying. But it's easy to form a conspiracy theory. As long as we're doing that, how about the conspiracy theory of people keeping the price low?




Seven hours before this thread was started, I told Dan this in an email...though, as stated I am not positive..


"That texture you see on the back could have easily been from scrapbook removalﾅ..I think I can see mostly smoothness, which is a good signﾅ..not saying it's one way or the other for sureﾅﾅﾅ.as too hard to tell from the scan, for me"

[Tao_Moko]

Since it was determined authentic as a blank back by the grader than it would seem reasonable that there would be either notes or grading criteria checklists that could be referenced(thickness, coloration, residue, scuffing, tears, etc.) from it's raw form. This is most likely a 1/1 of a high profile non-S/Ler and it's back and rarity are in question. Perfect opportunity for the tpg to step up and offer some details.

Just to beat the horse for a second:

I'm not in favor of numerical grades due to the lack of controls and human judgement but I am in favor of tpg authentication. A card that could be one-of-a-kind should come with evidence of it's authenticity.

[Blunder19]

Jason

I do not think it was in a scrap book. Where is the glue residue ? There is none. Normally there would be some staining evident on a scrap book removal. Also what has me worried is the shape in Which the paperloss takes on the back. A wide circle almost exactly where the advertisement would normally appear. I only see smoothness on the corners. It looks to me like the middle was skinned.

[BlueSky]

What I find interesting is the mark to the right of his head when you zoom in. This is the first time I have seen what looks to be the same mark that appears in the card below on another red Cobb.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y532/marty410965/T206CobbP350_zpsc97d18d4.jpg

[Blunder19]

I tired to outline what I see as the area that is missing paper..

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/CobbBlankBackEnlarged_zps8f79885f.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/blunder19/media/CobbBlankBackEnlarged_zps8f79885f.jpg.html)
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/CobbBlankBack_zps2bc28977.jpeg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/blunder19/media/CobbBlankBack_zps2bc28977.jpeg.html)

[MVSNYC]

Jamie, I could be wrong, but I never thought that there wasn't blank back dupes, meaning to my knowledge there could be multiple blank backs of the same player.

[Jaybird]

Jason

I do not think it was in a scrap book. Where is the glue residue ? There is none. Normally there would be some staining evident on a scrap book removal. Also what has me worried is the shape in Which the paperloss takes on the back. A wide circle almost exactly where the advertisement would normally appear. I only see smoothness on the corners. It looks to me like the middle was skinned.

The scan is not nearly good enough to make the determination you are making. I see much more smoothness than you outline and any of the brownish elements could be glue residue. But I don't want to debate any longer since we're debating on a very blurry scan. To my eye there are 3 or 4 brown splotches which is typical to how people glued cards in scrapbooks. The scuffed areas are next to those splotches.

I also think I see the face of Jesus. Let's debate that as well.

[Sean1125]

Any examples of a non southern leaguer with 2 confirmed blank backs?

I'm beginning to worry this card is not legit.

If the winner of the card determines the card is altered, would the auction house be responsible to reimburse the winner?

Currently have a situation with this exact problem. Will expand later tonight. It falls on the grading company.

[buymycards]

The scan on the Goodwin website is pretty good. To me, the back appears to have glue residue. The edges of the card seem to be hand cut, which MAY indicate that the card was cut from a scrapbook and PERHAPS soaked to remove the scrapbook paper. Whether or not the original back is still attached to the original front is impossible to tell without removing the card from the slab. I would think that with SGC's experience they would not have graded the card if the back was gone. Maybe.

Rick

[danmckee]

The scan on the Goodwin website is pretty good. To me, the back appears to have glue residue. The edges of the card seem to be hand cut, which MAY indicate that the card was cut from a scrapbook and PERHAPS soaked to remove the scrapbook paper. Whether or not the original back is still attached to the original front is impossible to tell without removing the card from the slab. I would think that with SGC's experience they would not have graded the card if the back was gone. Maybe.

Rick

SGC graded an E97 Black and White that didn't have a back, it was skinned as well.

[danmckee]

Here is a true blank back, it is smooth and just missing the print.

Please judge for yourselves on the Cobb:

[ullmandds]

Not to excuse sgc... But at least the
E97 should have a blank backSGC graded an E97 Black and White that didn't have a back, it was skinned as well.

[wonkaticket]

I agree with Dan everyone I’ve owned held or seen have been very smooth to the touch and evenly toned like the ones below. I don’t see them with raised fibers rough patches or odd sections of dirty and clean I have however seen many skinned cards with these qualities.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/huge/blanks.jpg

My rule of thumb on these is simple if you look at the item and then begin to hypothesize situations to explain possible issues with the card i.e. well it could have been in a scrapbook or it may have had water damage at one time etc. You should stop and take a step back. These things should just look right at a glance IMO.

I know a board member owns this card and he’s an honest guy so perhaps he will chime in and give more details the history etc.

P.S. I got a PM from a person involved with the sale, who says they think the card was glued in an album at one time and that's all that spot is....well noted but again I think it looks off.

[atx840]

It would be nice to hear the history of this one, I'm told a boardmember found the original blank Cobb in an antique (?) shop as a common...this one could have been glued in a notebook way before blanks brought a premium.

As John mentioned the few I've owned have all been smooth without back issues. I'm sitting on a beach a few mojitos deep and don't have access to my scans...this one will have to do. :D

http://i.imgur.com/aO2Msri.jpg

[wonkaticket]

I hear the words blank back, scrap book, back damage, antique shop all in the same sentence and my defenses are up.

However for me what are the chances a blank back gets put into a scrap book and the blank back has nothing to do with its removal and the damage seen is just simple damage to an already blank backed card? Add that with the fact the AH description mentions nothing of the damage to the back…..yet knows this new scrap book story.

Not trying to beat on the board members card all could be 100% true…and I would hope you guys would voice the same thoughts if it was my card or anyone else’s nothing personal here I happen to like the consignor as well.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Chris time to reach for another one of those mojitos!

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/Funny-Beach-05.jpg

[oldjudge]

If you get bored of the mojitos

[Gradedcardman]

Its a very nice card in my opinion. I saw it before it was graded and after it was graded. A very nice card that has been in the owners collection for quite awhile and who also happens to be very knowledgeable about T-206's in all capacities.

I had the chance to buy it but decided on a nice group of PD 42's. Oh decisions decisions !!!!

[Leon]

Due to this thread the auction house sent the Blank Backed Cobb back into SGC for a review. They cracked the card and re-examined it extremely closely. Their finding upon review is that the card is 100% legit. It is a blank back and not skinned. There is some, what looks to be scrapbook residue, but otherwise it is a perfectly good card. This is breaking news from a call I just received from Joe T. at the White Plains show. Good luck to anyone going for the card.

[MVSNYC]

Based on your post, Leon, i'm sure there will be a nice spike in price now.

Good luck to whoever's bidding.

[Bocabirdman]

The scan is not nearly good enough to make the determination you are making. I see much more smoothness than you outline and any of the brownish elements could be glue residue. But I don't want to debate any longer since we're debating on a very blurry scan. To my eye there are 3 or 4 brown splotches which is typical to how people glued cards in scrapbooks. The scuffed areas are next to those splotches.

I also think I see the face of Jesus. Let's debate that as well.

I dunno, it looks more like Matty or maybe Felipe to me:D

[danmckee]

Not skinned? Did anyone else look at it while it was popped? Or just the grading service that would look like idiots if they were wrong to begin with?

My vote is skinned, sorry

Way too much texture on the back

dan

[calvindog]

Due to this thread the auction house sent the Blank Backed Cobb back into SGC for a review. They cracked the card and re-examined it extremely closely. Their finding upon review is that the card is 100% legit. It is a blank back and not skinned. There is some, what looks to be scrapbook residue, but otherwise it is a perfectly good card. This is breaking news from a call I just received from Joe T. at the White Plains show. Good luck to anyone going for the card.

Wow, an auction house pulling a suspect lot without being dragged, kicking and screaming, to do the right thing.

[wonkaticket]

Wow, an auction house pulling a suspect lot without being dragged, kicking and screaming, to do the right thing.

Jeff, don’t be so harsh some of these auction houses are very sensitive I would hate to see you hurt someone’s feelings.

Nothing against SGC, but I would still want to see this card in person myself given it’s look. Felt the same way about the blue Old Mill when I made an offer. Nice to know SGC liked the item but I need to review it as well etc.

[Tao_Moko]

Best of luck to the seller. Resubmitting was a good call and now entombed with SGC backing it twice should help him get top dollar. I don't want the card to be faked/altered so hopefully the grader is correct. I'm just more and more skeptical about new hobby finds.

[Gradedcardman]

New to auction maybe...new to the Hobby...only because the owner didn't show it off.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I vote skinned. I just don't trust tpgs or auction houses, and that Cobb has too many red flags.

[sago]

How did they determine it is a T206 and not a T214?

Da.vid D@vis

[Leon]

How did they determine it is a T206 and not a T214?

Da.vid D@vis

T214s have blue captions on front.

[sago]

Thanks Leon. I may have the wrong designation, because I thought there was another set with the same front.

[wonkaticket]

thanks leon. I may have the wrong designation, because i thought there was another set with the same front.

t213-1

[Sean]

t213-1

Also T215-1 and T215 Pirates.
But neither of these sets include a Cobb Red Portrait.

[Leon]

t213-1

paper thin, no way.

[tedzan]

T213-1......Wonka is right-on


But, I prefer to refer to this Cobb as a 1910 COUPON


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1910couponcobb50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910COUPONredCobb75xb.jpg



TED Z

[tedzan]

paper thin, no way.

How do we know that this Cobb isn't paper thin ? ?

It is encapsulated in plastic :)


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

paper thin, no way.

Leon, was simply pointing Sago to the issue that looks like T206....but thanks for the education on cards.

[Leon]

Leon, was simply pointing Sago to the issue that looks like T206....but thanks for the education on cards.

woops, didn't read it like that but I see it now, sorry about that...Sometimes people forget things.....so maybe I thought you forgot ;) ...or, er something.....