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View Full Version : E98 Old Put Back Survey UPDATED from May 2009


Tim Kindler
01-03-2014, 09:25 PM
Good Evening,
Jason Cs thread on E98s, and the fact that I actually have time on my hands to participate on the board since I am a teacher on Christmas Vacation, got me inspired to update a list in which I started on a thread back in May of 2009. I was trying to catalog every known E98 with an Old Put 5 ct. Cigar Overprint on the back. I was trying to show a scan of as many of them as possible and show the provenance, as much as I can, of each card.

Leon mentioned in one of the replys that Overprints like the Old Put Stamp and the ones found in E94 are not everybody's cup of tea. In fact, many collectors don't see the uniquesnes of them, but as Leon put it, it just means that there are more of them out there and cheaper for those of us who are interested in them. I totally agree with him.

Anyway, below I will list the cards, and as much information/provenance of each card as I know. I will include the scans of the 4 that I own and hope that others will follow suit on this thread so that we can document each one within this thread. Chuck W. (Thanks Chuck!) took his time and effort to help school me on moving things such as words or photos from 1 thread to another in a private message the other day, and if I get some extra time in the future, I will try his directions out by moving some of the scans from the old thread in 2009 to this thread.
But, don't hold your breath though, I am technologically stupid!

Here is what I believe is currently the most updated list of E98s with Old Put 5ct. Cigar overprint stamps on the back. Currently, they are only known to be on a blue or red backgrounded E98. A few years back, someone tried to fake a green backgrounded E98 with a fake stamp, but it was pretty obvious. If you have any information, scans, corrections, or NEW additions to our checklist, please don't hesitate to add!

One theory that some of us on the board have in regards to how the stamps got there is that maybe Red background cards were not put in packs of caramel , but distributed as promotional pieces and that a store owner might have stamped them by hand for advertising purposes. I'm starting to lean this way based upon the evidence of the BSF find in which that is supposidly the story behind how those cards ended up in the attic of a store owner and that the majority of them were Red, and the fact that very few Reds have what appears to be caramel staining...but who really knows.

Totals:5 Blue Backgrounds + 18 Red Backgrounds = 23 Total Old Puts


BLUES:

Clarke
Chance
Dooin
Dooin
Kling

1. Leon L's Fred Clarke- SGC 40

2. Pete C's Frank Chance- SGC 35. I am assuming this is the one listed on the SGC Registry under Old Put Backs. I have always wondered why they have never updated this particular area of their regisrty with all of the other Old PUts that they have graded?????

3.Tim K's(That's ME) Red Dooin- SGC A. Rob A. purchased this off ebay(What a great eye he has!) years ago and I bought it off him in 2009

4. Johnny Kling-
5. Red Dooin- Both the Kling and the Dooin belong to a private collector who wishes to be annonymous, but we have scans of both of these on the origional thread in 2009. They are around VG/Ex in condition.



REDS:

Mack Brown Meyers Kling
Cobb Brown Vaughn Mullin
Wagner Dooin Vaughn Clarke
McGraw Young Bridwell
Collins Bresnahan Dahlen

1. John McGraw-SGC 30 Scott B. and then Rob A. Once owned this card. I purchased this through 19th Century Only Auctions in 2009. I sold it to Pete C. in 1012. I believe Pete Sold/traded to a friend. I saw it in a Goodwin auction in June of 2013, but it was removed. I do not know the whereabouts of it since.

2. Eddie Collins-SGC 30 I purchased it from a Mastro Auction in 2008 as a PSA 2 and crossed it over, sold it to Pete C. in 2012, and it in the Gooodwin auction in June of 2013.

3. Leon L's Roger Bresnahan-SGC 30

4.Pete C's Connie Mack-SGC 40 Used to belong to board member Bruce Babcock who provide a pic of it back in 2009. Pete C. now owns it and has it up for sale on ebay. Wish I could afford it!

5.Pete C's Ty Cobb- SGC 40 I bought it in 2009 through REA and Pete bought it from me in 2012.

6. Pete C's Honus Wagner- SGC 20 I bought it in 2007 through REA, and Pete bought it off of me in 2012.

7. Tim K's (THAT'S ME) Cy Young-SGC 35. I saw it was sold in 2005 in a Hunt auction, I bought it from Scott B. in 2009, I sold it to Pete C. in 2012, Pete sold/traded it, I bought it back in a Goodwn auction in March, 2013.

8. Tim K's Red Dooin- SGC 20- Pete C. bought it off ebay raw, and I purchased it from him in 2013.

9. Tim K's Mordecai Brown- SGC 30 It was sold in a Huggins and Scott auction in Oct. 2007, I bought it from Toby P. in Dec. 2007, I sold it to Pete in 2012, and I bought it back from him in 2013.

10.Mordecai Brown- Raw. There is a scan of this second Brown on the old thread that is one of the 3 (2 Blues) owned by an anonymous, private collector. I would grade it in poor condition.

11. Jerry T's Hippo Vaughn- Board member Jerry Tate provided a scan back in 2009 of his raw Vaughn with a partially skinned back. He said he bought it off of ebay around 2000.

12. Chief Meyers- I remember seeing a raw Meyers with an Old PUt back for sale in a David Festberg auction aroudn the year of 1999 or 2000???

13. George Mullin- Board memeber Hal Kaplan provided us with a scan in 2009 of a Mullin with an Old PUt back and it was Raw. He said it wasn't his card and that he couldn't remember where the scan came from.

14.Al Bridwell-
15.Bill Dahlen-
16.Johnny Kling-
17. Hippo Vaughn-
** These four are raw and a board member sent me an email with scans of these four cards. Unfortunately, I have changed email providers since and have lost who it is that sent me these scans and what they look like. I'm sorry I can't remember who it is, but please get back with us to confirm these 4. Thanks.

18. Bob M's Fred Clarke- I saved the worst for last. (Sorry I have to bring it up Bob.) But board member Bob M. (Tbob) owned a Fred Clarke and Big Brown (UPS) lost it in transit from GAI to Bob's house. I know it has been years back, but if anyone ever comes across this card, please notify Bob or the board immediately.

caramelcard
01-03-2014, 10:02 PM
Thanks Tim. These have really come out of the woodwork. Nice job tracking them down!

I had the McGraw for awhile. Before me it was Scott B's.

As you mentioned, some collectors believe these to be bogus. One thing that can instill a bit of confidence in collectors that have them is the fact that they've only been found in blue and red. That and the fact that the bogus examples of these and the e94 overprints that have surfaced were pretty pathetic attempts. However, if we see an orange or green example pop up all of the sudden, I'd be worried.

Tim Kindler
01-03-2014, 10:48 PM
Rob,
Thanks for the additional information on the provenance of the McGraw. The aspect of fakes is the reason it is essential that the hobby tries to document the existing cards with overprints. This May, it will have been 5 years since my last thread on these and we have many of these cards traced back with provenance years earlier. Hopefully this will help future collectors have confidence in which are real and which are fakes. When a new, undocumented one comes up we should be able to scrutinize it better. Not saying all new ones are fake, but we have plenty of real examples that have been around the hobby and documented for years to draw from.
Tim

pcoz
01-04-2014, 09:41 AM
Guys, great work on these. Here are my other 3 outside of the blue Chance. OP's are all the rarest cards of each respective player and arguably the rarest type card known. They are unique for sure and don't come cheap! Hence, these not being for some could be because of that. But, I think if you're like us and appreciate the rarity, beauty and ongoing debate of their origin, they're great cards. Jeff Toot presently owns the McGraw. Btw, I remember noticing how the stamp on the blues goes in the opposite direction than the stamp on the reds. Seeing Leon's Clarke again made me remember. Something else we can scratch our heads about!

pcoz
01-04-2014, 06:19 PM
Forgot to mention that last year I sent Earl at SGC scans and info on all the OP's that I had known in existence. So, I do believe they are now in their registry.