Opinion on this lou gehrig

[Thesaint7]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310834024967

Real or fake?

[jgmp123]

Judging by the effort he put towards a great description...Not Real.


Verbatim from link:
"SIGNATURE ON PIECE OF PAPER NO COA"

[7nohitter]

it's gone!

[Lordstan]

Here is a pic of the sig offered before it was pulled.
127623

[gnaz01]

My authentic example looks almost identical

[Duluth Eskimo]

No one wants to make a comment on it as they were probably asking him to take it off Ebay for a price. The seller also had a Cobb that was taken down. Gehrig is tough, but I think it looks good. I also think the Cobb was good. If you are planning on bidding on it I wouldn't advertise it here first.

[perezfan]

Yup.... I figured that it might vanish shortly after the "outing".

Pathetic description/poor listing, but I think it was authentic as well...

[GrayGhost]

agreed w all above. good signature and yeah, don't let too many know bout it.

[jgmp123]

As good as the signature may look, step away from it and let's revisit that description..."SIGNATURE ON PIECE OF PAPER"...He won't even say it's authentic or even signed by Lou in the description...that doesn't seem odd to anyone here? Do you think someone found it in a attic somewhere and just threw it up on eBay with that description??

[Lordstan]

James,
I hear you, and it does give me some reason to pause, but I have seen real items with terrible descriptions before. Look at the one member here who bought the real single signed GC Alexander ball on ebay. I think it was listed as a generic signed old ball. If I remember correctly, he paid less than $100 for it, or something like that. While this situation is rare, it does happen every once in a while.
I happen to think the auto looks pretty good. That being said, because of the anonymity of the seller and poor description I certainly would not have paid top dollar for it?

Edit: If it is a fake, it is a brilliant one. To pull off a sig that good, including a salutation, without a single hesitation mark anywhere is pretty exceptional.

[Forever Young]

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BUY!

I knew this looked familiar... SOMETHING STINKS!

The one attached had a JSA cert and I was interested in buying years ago.

The one on ebay is a forgery based on the original I bet.

I HOPE ONE OF US DIDN'T MAKE A DEAL WITH THIS GUY OUTSIDE OF EBAY.

[JimStinson]

No one wants to make a comment on it as they were probably asking him to take it off Ebay for a price. The seller also had a Cobb that was taken down. Gehrig is tough, but I think it looks good. I also think the Cobb was good. If you are planning on bidding on it I wouldn't advertise it here first.

The Ty Cobb that was taken down right before the Gehrig SHOULD look good as it matched exactly the infamous color photo copy of a real one that had once been housed in a slab as authentic. And when I say exactly I mean exactly right down to the size dimensions of the paper surrounding it as well as the signature itself superimposing perfectly. So maybe some lucky collector scored a "Daily Double" that day. When it comes to autographs its like if you have a big tall glass of clean water and you put a single drop of urine in it , while it may still look like a glass of clean water its actually a glass of piss
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for Sale Daily
stinsonsports.com

[jgmp123]

The Ty Cobb that was taken down right before the Gehrig SHOULD look good as it matched exactly the infamous color photo copy of a real one that had once been housed in a slab as authentic. And when I say exactly I mean exactly right down to the size dimensions of the paper surrounding it as well as the signature itself superimposing perfectly. So maybe some lucky collector scored a "Daily Double" that day. When it comes to autographs its like if you have a big tall glass of clean water and you put a single drop of urine in it , while it may still look like a glass of clean water its actually a glass of piss
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for Sale Daily
stinsonsports.com

+1

[JimStinson]

Ben, You were posting at exactly the same time I was and basically proved what I was suggesting.

incidentally The notations on the lower left of the Lou Gehrig you pictured (The REAL one) and the notations on the original Ty Cobb 3x5 that the photo copy originated from are in the handwriting of the late H. Esch and are indeed good. As the date was Esch's way of remembering exactly when he got the autograph which was in most cases in-person.
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for Sale Daily
stinsonsports.com

[Forever Young]

Ben, You were posting at exactly the same time I was and basically proved what I was suggesting.

incidentally The notations on the lower left of the Lou Gehrig you pictured (The REAL one) and the notations on the original Ty Cobb 3x5 that the photo copy originated from are in the handwriting of the late H. Esch and are indeed good. As the date was Esch's way of remembering exactly when he got the autograph which was in most cases in-person.
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for Sale Daily
stinsonsports.com
Great info Jim. We proved each other right! :) This is EXACTLY why net54 is important. After seeing a thread on the card side outing a restored piece at auction and this .. I am proud to be a part of it.

[JimStinson]

Good Point Ben, But I can personally only take credit for a portion of it. It was brought to my attention by two others who don't participate in this forum and take a considerable amount of "bashing" but provide a tremendous service to the hobby. They know who they are.
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Vintage autographs for Sale Daily
stinsonsports.com

[jgmp123]

Well Jim and Ben, You can both be equally credited with saving some of the newbies here some cash...It sounded like several were going to go after this. Hopefully they come back and read the updates here....

[RichardSimon]

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BUY!

I knew this looked familiar... SOMETHING STINKS!

The one attached had a JSA cert and I was interested in buying years ago.

The one on ebay is a forgery based on the original I bet.

I HOPE ONE OF US DIDN'T MAKE A DEAL WITH THIS GUY OUTSIDE OF EBAY.

This Gehrig was pulled by ebay and not the seller. He hopefully did not make an outside deal for it.
Lovely to know that quality copies are being made from autographs that were originally authentic :(:(:(.
Good work Jim and Ben.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I actually did have a couple brief emails with the guy before he pulled the Cobb down. Someone had made him a healthy offer and be wanted my offer, but based on the emails I didn't feel comfortable with the seller. The Cobb matches exactly to one of the examples Ron K. has in his book and after emailing the guy I thought it was weird that you wouldn't mention the signature came from a top dealer.

I appreciate Jim and Rich giving their opinion, but no one seems to want to make a comment before Jim, Rich, Chris, or others give their opinion. The signatures were good on face value, but most likely color copies. The guy had good feedback if I remember correctly and you are backed by PayPal if you were to purchase. Obviously a huge pain in the ass for a refund, but you probably be ok. I just find it a little ironic that there is so much talk now and not when the OP was asking for help

[RichardSimon]

I actually did have a couple brief emails with the guy before he pulled the Cobb down. Someone had made him a healthy offer and be wanted my offer, but based on the emails I didn't feel comfortable with the seller. The Cobb matches exactly to one of the examples Ron K. has in his book and after emailing the guy I thought it was weird that you wouldn't mention the signature came from a top dealer.

I appreciate Jim and Rich giving their opinion, but no one seems to want to make a comment before Jim, Rich, Chris, or others give their opinion. The signatures were good on face value, but most likely color copies. The guy had good feedback if I remember correctly and you are backed by PayPal if you were to purchase. Obviously a huge pain in the ass for a refund, but you probably be ok. I just find it a little ironic that there is so much talk now and not when the OP was asking for help

Based on the reports when that slabbed by PSA Cobb first came out (guess they did not use the $50K machine on that one) , Ron K. actually owns the original Cobb that was used to make the copy.
I am getting so disgusted with what is happening in this hobby now. The criminals are trying anything to beat the public. Using PSA to get their crap authenticated is just the latest scam that the con artists have come up with. Forgeries are pouring out of Florida in tsunami like quantity. We keep waiting for the shoe to drop on them and hopefully it will. But that crap will be polluting the hobby forever. CC keeps churning out sh-- every day. They go through the TPA list like it is ice cream on a hot day. The whole thing is really discouraging.

[jgmp123]

I actually did have a couple brief emails with the guy before he pulled the Cobb down. Someone had made him a healthy offer and be wanted my offer, but based on the emails I didn't feel comfortable with the seller. The Cobb matches exactly to one of the examples Ron K. has in his book and after emailing the guy I thought it was weird that you wouldn't mention the signature came from a top dealer.

I appreciate Jim and Rich giving their opinion, but no one seems to want to make a comment before Jim, Rich, Chris, or others give their opinion. The signatures were good on face value, but most likely color copies. The guy had good feedback if I remember correctly and you are backed by PayPal if you were to purchase. Obviously a huge pain in the ass for a refund, but you probably be ok. I just find it a little ironic that there is so much talk now and not when the OP was asking for help

Jason,

I know a lot of stock isn't put into the "details", but I learned long ago from Mr. Stinson that take a look at the autograph last after you take a look at EVERYTHING ELSE. I would steer clear from any items with such a piss poor description as this one had. I don't care about past examples, that's just my preference. The seller obviously knew who Lou Gehrig was and felt it necessary to not mention directly that it was autographed by Lou in his description, probably because they knew it wasn't. If someone has an autograph and even if they don't know it's of high value, they won't say something as generic as "SIGNATURE ON PIECE OF PAPER NO COA"...If people don't see that as a red flag then by all means, BID AWAY!!

[Duluth Eskimo]

James, it's funny that you mention that because I have always went by the belief that I judge an item based on the item. I do not let someone else tell me it's good, I judge the item. I know exactly what you mean with outside factors and influences, but the item stands on it's own. What i'm saying is that I buy a fair amount of items with no authentication whatsoever because I trust my own judgement. Do I get burned every once in a while? Yes, but it's getting rare. Do I get some great deals, yes.

With that being said, you can never really make a qualified judgement on an item unless you have it in your hand and I think that gets lost in a lot of the questions that are asked on this board by people.

Just by the research alone, Ben was able to match it up to a nice index card that he has seen or owns. Obviously this Gehrig is no good by that research alone and screams for people to steer clear of this seller. As previously said, that is the nice part of this forum.

What I am saying is that only a few people here and there are willing to give an opinion on an item without one of the trusted people to give their blessing. The signatures were actually real signatures that were photocopied.

I think Richard and Jim are great, but it's not because I don't think they ever make a mistake. It's because I think they run a great business and will stand behind everything they sell and are quality people. I don't know either one personally, other than seeing them back in the day at the National and buying a few items here and there.

In the end, I am no where near the level of experience of people previously mentioned, but I do trust my own eye and have the guts to go with it if I feel the item is good.