Lelands Lot #153 Heads Up.

[wonkaticket]

Just a heads up to any members who may consider buying/bidding on lot #153 in Leland’s current auction.

I reached out to them after seeing the item listed for sale to let them know a bit of the history of this item. The item while original has had a massive amount of work done, above and beyond what most collectors would consider preservation or minor restoration.

The item was once listed for sale on eBay by Rick Kohl/BRSZ. I had contacted him upon seeing it looking to acquire a second example. I was notified by a few folks including Rick that it had undergone significant work. I ended up getting these before pictures.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/IMG_8498.JPG

I called and shared this story with Leland’s this Friday. The person I spoke with was very interested to get the many images I sent. He even agreed upon closer inspection that he could see every area where work has been done and that it mirrored exactly the before pictures.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/Image.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/pict7310.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/pict7307.jpg

I told him no worries some of the work that can be done is pretty amazing. Perhaps they just missed it or the consignor failed to share etc. I added they may want to amend their description to include the before images as well as change the online description a bit. As currently it implies only minor work in my opinion has been performed, certainly now armed with these images they can clearly call out more detail in terms of restoration.

I followed up my previous email today this time adding Josh Evans asking if they had planned to add in the details so potential bidders/buyers could be fully informed on the item. This was the response I received from Josh.

“It is clearly written in the description regarding restoration”

I respectfully disagreed with Josh and was a bit surprised that this would be his stance upon getting more information. I think it’s safe to assume that anyone who may buy this may not be thrilled to know that they have bought one of if not the worst condition G20 banners around especially after reading the below description to make their purchase.

“The "game-action" illustrations in each corner only add to the piece's greatness. There has been expertly-done restoration on the poster, which measures 18.75" x 30.5" in its frame. There is some chipping at the upper edges, and some residue on the reverse, meaning the poster may have been mounted at one time. A mere eight completed sets of the N28 issue have been entered into the PSA Set Registry, making this the most highly coveted poster from the Allen & Ginter family. The baseball players themselves, in effect, comprise the very first set of so-called baseball cards. As far back as the 1930s, Jefferson Burdick made note of this poster in The American Card Catalog, the first price guide, and still the most influential. The poster is in NRMT condition.”

Just giving anybody out there a heads up since it’s clear that Leland’s feels it’s done its due diligence in terms of accurately describing this lot.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is restoration and then there is RESTORATION. I think Leland's should say something about the extent of the restoration.

[Vegas-guy]

This is one of the many resonsons this site is great! Thanks for sharing John..:)

[e107collector]

Peter, I agree - this piece has had a total makeover.

Thanks for the heads up John.

Tony

[Steve D]

Considering that it appears the left-most 3"-4" of the poster, along with major portions extending 3"-4" in from the right border have basically been replaced, including major parts of Anson, Kelly and Ward, more specifics regarding the restorations are in my opinion, a must.

Steve

[batsballsbases]

All I can say is WOW.:eek: Thanks John for posting this.

[jcmtiger]

Lots of restoration, but to bad the Sports Collecting world does not accept restoration like the Art world does. Multi million dollar art pieces have been restored and the Art World accepts the art after the work is done. The same is to be said about the Comic Book collectors.

Joe

[mrvster]

as always....you are a super slueth;)

wow:eek: to this :eek:

[Cardboard Junkie]

Excellent information John. Thanks, and &@#$ Lelands.:mad:

[drcy]

Amazing restoration job, though. Earned their money. Would be nice to know who did it.

[joeadcock]

Amazing restoration job, though. Earned their money. Would be nice to know who did it.

Amazing indeed.

[Cardboard Junkie]

It's so good, maybe "Panky" did it!;)

[joshleland]

I was not aware of the extent of the restoration until I just saw it all blown up on 54. My bad, i should have looked closer at the pics john sent me. I will correct the description early next week. But the work done speaks for itself, the piece is still magnificent as shown in the images. Josh

[bobsbbcards]

I was not aware of the extent of the restoration until I just saw it all blown up on 54. My bad, i should have looked closer at the pics john sent me. I will correct the description early next week. But the work done speaks for itself, the piece is still magnificent as shown in the images. Josh

Better late than never, I suppose. :rolleyes:

[Cardboard Junkie]

Feeble excuse for assholism.

[wolterse]

Wow, scary how good that restoration finished up..... Thx for the heads up.

[Mikehealer]

I'm just curious as I have no interest in this poster, do the bidders that have already bid now have the option to retract their bids. It seems like they would be able to since this is a pretty big omission from the original description. It looks like at least 50% of the outer edges were missing.

I'm not sure how someone could have missed that if they were looking at both images.

[Thirteen]

I wouldn't call it restoration - I'd call it a reprint with all that was done. Thanks again to this fantastic Net54 Board!

[3-2-count]

I'm just curious as I have no interest in this poster, do the bidders that have already bid now have the option to retract their bids. It seems like they would be able to since this is a pretty big omission from the original description. It looks like at least 50% of the outer edges were missing.

I'm not sure how someone could have missed that if they were looking at both images.

I would think legally they could Mike due to the misrepresentation by this AH.

[atx840]

Thanks for sharing this John.

That extensive of a restoration requires more then one line in the write up. If it was in similar condition to the HA example then understandably but that write up is misleading.

Josh. Can bids be retracted?

http://dyn2.heritagestatic.com/lf?set=path%5B5%2F4%2F0%2F9%2F5409367%5D%2Csizedat a%5B450x2000%5D&call=url%5Bfile%3Aproduct.chain%5D

[thehoodedcoder]

I'm just curious as I have no interest in this poster, do the bidders that have already bid now have the option to retract their bids. It seems like they would be able to since this is a pretty big omission from the original description. It looks like at least 50% of the outer edges were missing.

I'm not sure how someone could have missed that if they were looking at both images.

i'm in agreement. there is no way you could even glance at those two images and then feel the restoration was minor.

kevin

[wonkaticket]

I was not aware of the extent of the restoration until I just saw it all blown up on 54. My bad, i should have looked closer at the pics john sent me. I will correct the description early next week. But the work done speaks for itself, the piece is still magnificent as shown in the images. Josh

Josh, thank you. Not sure how you missed the pictures I sent as there were more of them than here? :confused:

Also I spent 30 mins on the phone with your employee walking him thru the pictures explaining step by step. :confused:

As I said in my email and to your employee this is really as much to protect Lelands as it is the new owner. Thank you for fixing this.

At the risk of sounding nasty this just appears now that the hand is in the cookie jar you look to correct. I can't help but think that had I just left this at your email reply this would have gone off as is. Perhaps I'm wrong but I think you and Lelands could have handled this better. I took time out of my day to try and help Lelands and it's bidders. This should have never had to be a thread on this board IMO.

Thanks again for making it right.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Josh, let me know if you need all the pics, in hi-res. here are what I sent etc.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/IMG_8499.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/IMG_8501.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/IMG_8500.JPG

[slidekellyslide]

Holy carp! I didn't know that restoration of that magnitude could be done. :eek:

[barrysloate]

I'm trying to figure out how it was restored. In order to fill in the parts that are missing, the restorer would need a copy of an intact poster, and then literally paint in the missing parts. Where else could he get them from? You can't get them from another poster, and you can't cut down original cards because they aren't exactly the same. So we have to assume the missing parts were painted in.

Can anyone think of any other way to do this?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Graphic Conservation in Chicago certainly has this capability, although I don't know if this is their work.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/

[Cardboard Junkie]

The technology exists where by computers can do it.:eek:

[seablaster]

Graphic Conservation in Chicago certainly has this capability, although I don't know if this is their work.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/

I would say yes, as they have the before and after pictures of this piece on their site as an example of their work.


:eek:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Indeed they do.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/before-after#sports-memorabilia

To transform a piece this damaged, our conservators filled and inpainted areas of the print lost through insect damage, repaired numerous tears, and strengthened the print with a lining.

[slidekellyslide]

Indeed they do.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/before-after#sports-memorabilia

To transform a piece this damaged, our conservators filled and inpainted areas of the print lost through insect damage, repaired numerous tears, and strengthened the print with a lining.

That's amazing work.

[Fred]

All in one - I'm disappointed and I'm amazed.

I'm a bit disappointed the auction house isn't posting a Before and After picture of the restoration to let everyone know exactly the amount of "restoration" that took place.

I'm amazed that something that damaged could be "restored" to look as it does now.

How much does restoration work like that cost? It's absolutely AMAZING.

[Shoeless Moe]

Your writer is incorrect on Lot 636: 1935 Babe Ruth Signed Album Page With "The Babe's" Fingerprints Outlined

"......... After his retirement as a player, "The Babe" had hoped for a job as a major league manager, alas no franchise was willing to afford him that opportunity, something that bothered the Hall of Famer until his dying day in 1948. He never worked in baseball again."


The Babe coached for the Dodgers in 1938......unless u meant after his death he never worked in baseball again,well then yes that is true : )

While you are correcting things, one more for you.

[aquarius31]

Wow, that's a major restoration. Restoration to me means cleaning up some staining/foxing, very minor touch ups and deacidfication. That said, I'm amazed that this restoration was done by hand vs computer generated!

[CW]

Lots of restoration, but to bad the Sports Collecting world does not accept restoration like the Art world does. Multi million dollar art pieces have been restored and the Art World accepts the art after the work is done. The same is to be said about the Comic Book collectors.

Joe

After watching a few episodes of Antiques Roadshow I've learned that poster collectors also accept restoration, and it can definitely increase the value of a damaged poster. I'd imagine this A&G banner would have that crossover appeal -- ie. sports memorabilia and poster collectors, with the latter already accepting this type of restoration.

While I wouldn't be bidding on this, thanks for the exposure, John.

This type of restoration is amazing, and I think when a piece is so far deteriorated or damaged, the restoration should be accepted within the hobby as it now becomes an enjoyable piece. Full disclosure on these types of restorations should obviously be disclosed when these pieces are sold.

[D. Bergin]

That had to cost a fortune to restore. I've only heard good things about the work of this company for years.

Just like a restored car or any other restored piece of art, the work should be disclosed, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with it.

I'd much rather have the restored version of that poster, no matter how much work was done to it, rather then that torn up version for display, same as I'd rather have a restored '67 Mustang, rather then the original rusted out hull and corroded engine that it started out as.

[Bpm0014]

"I should have looked more closely at the pics that John sent". Not that I would be a buyer for this, but what a laughable excuse. It's a shame that this auction house doesn't look more closely at their auction items. Are they this lax with their autographs and other items?

[calvindog]

Maybe Josh's dog was responsible for handling this item's description in the catalog? I understand he's an important part of the Leland's auction team, Department of Shill Bidding.

I'm convinced that no matter how many second chances these auction house principals get, no matter how many tears they shed, they simply cannot control themselves when given a chance to lie in order to make a buck. What a disgrace.

[1880nonsports]

could you elaborate a little about Josh and shill bidding?

[buymycards]

So, I guess it's OK if I remove the first back from the card and replace it with the second back, as long as I disclose that the card has been "restored"?

At least in this case I am using an original back. Would it be OK if I printed a back from my computer and attached it to the card and said the card was restored?

[calvindog]

could you elaborate a little about Josh and shill bidding?

Yes -- there's been massive shill bidding in Lelands's auctions. If Josh comes on here and denies it -- he won't -- I'll go into painstaking detail.

[3-2-count]

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

[ValKehl]

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

+1. I, too, take my hat off to John, Jeff, and many others for the efforts they make/have made to expose instances of wrongdoing in our hobby.
Val

[CobbvLajoie1910]

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

+1.

"My bad" isn't a very satisfactory response given the scale of the fraud.

[4815162342]

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

+1

[Runscott]

Lots of restoration, but to bad the Sports Collecting world does not accept restoration like the Art world does. Multi million dollar art pieces have been restored and the Art World accepts the art after the work is done. The same is to be said about the Comic Book collectors.

Joe

Joe, I think acceptance of restoration is a bit closer than you might think: Restoration of comic books vastly de-values the item, as it does for posters. The paintings that require major restoration (never as much as this poster) are generally MUCH older that this poster. Also, posters and comic books are created by mechanical processes, while paintings are done by hand; however, restoration is done by hand for all three. It's understandable (to me, anyway) that manual restoration of manually-created art is more accepted.

[drcy]

My former brother in law was a big vintage Hollywood movie poster collector. He said a Vg poster restored to Near Mint condition would be worth more than Vg but less than Near Mint unrestored. And, either way he said, the restoration had to be disclosed at sale.

[wonkaticket]

These types of items there are really 3 types of work that collectors are ok with and is almost always disclosed and isn't hidden or glossed over. In fact in many cases its a badge of pride and they are happy to tell you of the the below.

Preservation & Stabilization: This includes perhaps stopping tears from tearing more, adding acid free backings to bring stability to the item, minor cleaning of foxing and such. All of this increases value in my mind because very little has been done short of saving it for future generations of collectors and the item is as close to original as the day it left the factory.

Minor Restoration: This includes the above steps, but may also include minor in painting of damaged sections, repairs of more major tears, adding minor amounts of material to missing sections or even recreating minor sections of missing graphics. This would increase the value of a damaged item. However if there are other better condition examples within the market place this would never sell for as much as the other examples.

Major Restoration & Recreations: This is where huge portions of an item have been fixed up, where massive amounts of damage has been replaced with newer laser printed/modern lithograph sections have been grafted into the original. These items can be a great value and unless it’s the only example known should always sell for a fraction of the above two.

That’s my take….and all of this is par for the course in these early printed lithographs nothing that any auction house wouldn’t be aware of and something that every collector would want to know.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

I would say yes, as they have the before and after pictures of this piece on their site as an example of their work.


:eek:

LOL, this makes this even more laughable. Too funny. GCC Mastronets secret weapon for many years.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/ag.jpg

GCC however is tops they and about 3 others are who I would use, not cheap but they do amazing work.

Cheers,

John

[Jeffrompa]

I would buy that poster either way . But that is clearly restorative not just reconditioned .

[calvindog]

I wonder if Leland's is the owner of this item. They sure went out of their way to hide the full work that was done on it.

[wonkaticket]

I wonder if Leland's is the owner of this item. They sure went out of their way to hide the full work that was done on it.

Jeff, funny you say that you're not the first person to think that...in fact I have had a few hobby folks PM me with the same thoughts....

[calvindog]

Jeff, funny you say that you're not the first person to think that...in fact I have had a few hobby folks PM me with the same thoughts....

Well, I'm assuming that when Josh's dog commits frauds he likes to get as much bang for the buck as possible.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, I'm assuming that when Josh's dog commits frauds he likes to get as much bang for the buck as possible.

How does his bark compare with his bite?

[calvindog]

How does his bark compare with his bite?

Not sure, but he apparently is the only dog with opposable thumbs -- makes it easier to punch in those shill bids.

[wonkaticket]

Not sure, but he apparently is the only dog with opposable thumbs -- makes it easier to punch in those shill bids.

Some day we got to grab dinner and drinks Jeff when I'm NYC, not only would it be good to catch up...but I got to hear this dog story sounds like a classic.

I swear these AH's should be accompanied by 80’s TV laugh tracks and groans….

”This week on an all new That’s My Auction House, Skipper gets into big trouble as he enters bids he can’t pay for! Don’t miss this one it’s sure to be hoot. Right after an all new Alf”

[calvindog]

Some day we got to grab dinner and drinks Jeff when I'm NYC, not only would it be good to catch up...but I got to hear this dog story sounds like a classic.

I swear these AH's should be accompanied by 80’s TV laugh tracks and groans….

”This week on an all new That’s My Auction House, Skipper gets into big trouble as he enters bids he can’t pay for! Don’t miss this one it’s sure to be hoot. Right after an all new Alf”

John, for sure. I'm also going to send over an email with some funny stuff about Leland's. Did you ever hear about the infamous letter sent out by a former Leland's employee which laid out in tremendous detail some of the fraud committed by Josh and his gang?

[wonkaticket]

John, for sure. I'm also going to send over an email with some funny stuff about Leland's. Did you ever hear about the infamous letter sent out by a former Leland's employee which laid our in tremendous detail some of the fraud committed by Josh and his gang?

No but that would be a good read. Thanks Jeff, I feel bad now I didn't get you anything for the Holidays.

[Peter_Spaeth]

John, for sure. I'm also going to send over an email with some funny stuff about Leland's. Did you ever hear about the infamous letter sent out by a former Leland's employee which laid our in tremendous detail some of the fraud committed by Josh and his gang?

Can't trust disgruntled former employees, you know that. :)

[wonkaticket]

Can't trust disgruntled former employees, you know that. :)

Why did the dog and Josh have a falling out? :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/Cute-Funny-Dog-2012-12.jpg

[jerrys]

Restoration of collectable US currency is also acceptable. The grading service gives a short description of the repair and uses the word Apparent under the condition grade. Opening bid on the $5 is $600 and the $10 is $2400.

126255

126256

[ZachS]

What if one of those bills had "Apparent: 1/4 of this bill was torn off; replaced"?

[drcy]

A funny thing is even if the extensive restoration of the poster was disclosed, you think it would still get lots of bids as it's clearly a nice looking item.

[wonkaticket]

Josh, this is it? No before pictures, no link to GCC's website for before and after? :confused:

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72085/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Sports/Sports-and-Non-Sports-Cards/Lot153~1887-Allen-and-Ginter-World-Champions-Advertising-Poster

To say the work is virtually undetectable is a stretch also come on man, what gives? Why does everything have to be so freaking difficult?

It’s really simple this is a heavily damaged genuine G20 banner that has been professionally restored by one of the best restoration companies in the world to look as original as possible.

It serves a great value to the collector as it looks NRMT and can be had for a fraction of the price when compared to an unrestored NRMT copy. Which may not be found as the nicest examples are currently tied up in private collections. So with only 6-7 of these around this may be your one chance etc.

It is what it is why not let it sell as such, why walk a fine line of just enough info?

[slidekellyslide]

Josh, this is it? No before pictures, no link to GCC's website for before and after? :confused:

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72085/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Sports/Sports-and-Non-Sports-Cards/Lot153~1887-Allen-and-Ginter-World-Champions-Advertising-Poster

Seriously...that's ridiculous IMO not to include the before picture of this item. :rolleyes:

[E93]

Pathetic! I guess this is one more auction house I cannot trust. It is amazing to me that somebody who has been in the hobby as long as Josh Evans just does not get it.
JimB

[3-2-count]

Pathetic! I guess this is one more auction house I cannot trust.
JimB

Sad isn't it Jim. Greed has reared it's ugly head yet again.

[calvindog]

Sad isn't it Jim. Greed has reared it's ugly head yet again.

You've got a guy in Josh who signed his dog up to shill bid unsuspecting customers of Leland's Auctions and we're surprised that he's still trying to steal a few more dollars with his bullshit 'update' on a massively restored poster?

[Eric72]

For the auction house to initially try passing this off as unaltered is an example of everything wrong with our hobby. Additionally, they are still contending that the, "poster is in NRMT condition." It is utterly shameful to call this anything other than Authentic...and even that is a major stretch.

If informed that the piece had undergone a major restoration, which definitely seems to be the case here, they clearly had a duty to disclose same. Had the information provided to them gone unnoticed and they were also too inexperienced to spot this independently, they have no business handling the piece in question.

On the flip side...in my humble opinion, the restoration job is tremendous. Had it been fully disclosed from the beginning, the impressive work done to the poster would have likely driven bids higher. Now that this piece has an aura of deceit hanging over it, I can't help but to think the hammer price (for this auction, anyway) will suffer.

Wonka (along with many others in the Net54 community) has done an exemplary job at shining the light of truth onto a shadowy corner of our hobby, which continues to be fraught with peril. I am grateful to him...and all of you...for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Best regards,

Eric

[CW]

Now that Leland's has the knowledge gained from the "before" pictures supplied by John, I think it would be safe to remove this line from the description....

"There is some chipping at the upper edges, and some residue on the reverse, meaning the poster may have been mounted at one time."

:rolleyes:

Also, not to pile on, and maybe it's just semantics, :rolleyes: but I also would also disagree with their assessment that "the restoration work is virtually undetectable" when it's clearly visible when looking at the photo...

[Rob D.]

"And Josh has agreed to take questions after he's finished with his speech."

[Peter_Spaeth]

You've got a guy in Josh who signed his dog up to shill bid unsuspecting customers of Leland's Auctions and we're surprised that he's still trying to steal a few more dollars with his bullshit 'update' on a massively restored poster?

Perhaps the dog is the consignor and wants to realize the highest possible price consistent with avoiding a potential fraud claim, rather than making the fullest possible disclosure?

[wonkaticket]

"And Josh has agreed to take questions after he's finished with his speech."

Was this the Q&A session after dinner where a certain auction executive talked about fraud and unsavory actions by Mastro as part of the entertainment? I was told about that sorry I missed it. :)

[calvindog]

Was this the Q&A session after dinner where a certain auction executive talked about fraud and unsavory actions by Mastro as part of the entertainment? I was told about that sorry I missed it. :)

Please tell me that wasn't Josh.

[ullmandds]

No...it wasnt

[Rob D.]

I thought Josh was a scheduled speaker one year but had to cancel. My post was wishful thinking for an intro at the 2014 dinner.

[ullmandds]

josh spoke at the 13' dinner.

[wonkaticket]

There you have it......images have been added, thank you Josh.

If it was me I would also include a link to GCC. That's a selling feature IMO I can assure you the work that was done didn't come cheap.

Cheers,

John

[Ease]

josh spoke at the 13' dinner.

Very entertaining too I might add. He had some cool stories. The Charlie Sheen stuff was great.

[calvindog]

There you have it......images have been added, thank you Josh.

If it was me I would also include a link to GCC. That's a selling feature IMO I can assure you the work that was done didn't come cheap.

Cheers,

John

Kicking and screaming he had to be dragged to do the right thing -- not because he wanted to but because he was tired of being exposed as a fraud.

[wonkaticket]

Kicking and screaming he had to be dragged to do the right thing -- not because he wanted to but because he was tired of being exposed as a fraud.

Jeff, sadly I would have to agree. Not sure why it had to be so difficult? :confused:

Just think after my call last week, they throw up the pics and links. No public forum posts, no outrage or confused customers just the right thing and honestly would have made them look pretty solid at least to me.

Oh well….

[Pythonfactory]

Although it has already been said multiple times, thanks for exposing this John. I've just added Lelands to my "Do Not Buy From" list.

And I think you'll be happy to know that if you Google "Lelands auctions fraud" this comes up near the top of the results. Hopefully a few future consignors who were considering using Lelands land on this thread and take their business elsewhere.

[Shoeless Moe]

You've got a guy in Josh who signed his dog up to shill bid unsuspecting customers of Leland's Auctions and we're surprised that he's still trying to steal a few more dollars with his bullshit 'update' on a massively restored poster?

I don't see how you can prove his dog was shill bidding, I think he really wanted this item:

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/71730/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Sports/Baseball-Memorabilia/Lot418~Schottzies-Dog-Collar

[wonkaticket]

Just saw this image from one of our member’s websites thought it was rather funny. As well as a little more salt in the wound. Here is the placard from the National. Love the last line.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/AllanandGinterper20Worldqusper20Championsper20Post erper20Lelandqusper20Write-up.jpg

Add this in with the reluctance to add images and new description until after I had to publicly post here, then the continued stretch of saying the restoration is “almost undetectable” which of course is a joke. I really am beginning to think Leland’s is the owner of this item.

Otherwise why go to these the lengths to cover a consignor, and a consignor who is no longer with us to boot. Unless Josh says otherwise I’m inclined to think they are the owner as mentioned in this thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well if only a handful are known it is by definition one of the finest specimens extant, no? :)

[4815162342]

Well if only a handful are known it is by definition one of the finest specimens extant, no? :)

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/you_have_won_second_prize_in_a_beauty_contest_2516 .png

[calvindog]

Just checking the Leland's auction ending tomorrow -- noticed a full Led Zeppelin ticket from a show on August 23, 1970. The Leland's catalog describes the show as follows:

"One of the greatest rock and roll bands ever to hit the stage, Led Zeppelin played a 10-song set at San Antonio's Hemis-Fair Arena on August 23, 1970 beginning with their hard-charging rocker "Immigrant Song."

A simple google search reveals that the show was "cancelled due to health concerns, because of an outbreak of children's diphtheria in San Antonio." -- Led Zeppelin official website. On the Led Zep website there are also reproduced newspaper articles noting the cancellation of the show.

[4815162342]

Hilarious! The research apparently stopped at the first Google search result (https://www.google.com/#q=San+Antonio%27s+Hemis-Fair+Arena+on+August+23%2C+1970).

[calvindog]

Hilarious! The research apparently stopped at the first Google search result (https://www.google.com/#q=San+Antonio%27s+Hemis-Fair+Arena+on+August+23%2C+1970).

Actually even that first entry notes that the set list was a "possible" set list.

[wonkaticket]

Jeff, don't let a little things like details & facts get you bogged down just enjoy the auction...I know Josh doesn't let it effect his enjoyment of his auctions.

[oldjudge]

Way to go Jeff and John! Just when you think you have seen everything.......

[ctownboy]

Even when they are wrong
auction descriptions just Ramble On.

David

[scooter729]

I had been interested initially in this Red Sox print (http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72195/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Sports/Boston-Braves-and-Red-Sox/Lot725~1904-1905-Boston-Baseball-Club-Print-by-Horner) when I saw it the other day, but noticed the two small words at the end of the long description which stated "repaired tears".

I immediately flashed back to this thread and pictured what the "repaired tears" might mean, and held back on my bid.

Thanks again to all for informing the rest of us when you know about things like this - it is very educational and can save us some headaches down the road!

[Leon]

I had been interested initially in this Red Sox print (http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72195/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Sports/Boston-Braves-and-Red-Sox/Lot725~1904-1905-Boston-Baseball-Club-Print-by-Horner) when I saw it the other day, but noticed the two small words at the end of the long description which stated "repaired tears".

I immediately flashed back to this thread and pictured what the "repaired tears" might mean, and held back on my bid.

Thanks again to all for informing the rest of us when you know about things like this - it is very educational and can save us some headaches down the road!

Leland's is an advertiser here so please keep that in mind. It doesn't change my view but it needs to be said.
There is no doubt a couple mistakes were made in the auction. That being said, if I wanted something that said it had been repaired, I would place a call and get more explanation if i had a concern. That is a beautiful poster. I don't think I have ever seen it before. I could maybe see me replacing my Horner Composite with it, and putting the rest of the money in the bank. It's really nice.

Also, I have known Josh and Mike for many years. I consider them good guys and hobby friends. I think the poster was an oversight and one that got egg on their face. But that being said I trust Leland's and think they are a good company and one I will continue to do business with. Just as I would do with anything and any company, if I am buying something that has been repaired, I will always follow up and ask about it, just as I did the Horner Composite hanging on my wall.

I am looking forward to their auction ending to see where some things go. Hopefully, if there is anything I can't live without, I will come away with it....It will be interesting to see if the Wagner card gets more bids too.....

[calvindog]

Leon, Josh has engaged in shill bidding in his auctions. Just ask him.

[Leon]

Leon, Josh has engaged in shill bidding in his auctions. Just ask him.

I did. He said he didn't.

[scooter729]

That being said, if I wanted something that said it had been repaired, I would place a call and get more explanation if i had a concern.

Thanks Leon - I just wanted to add that I took your advice and gave them a call to get more details as to the extent of the repaired tears. It certainly had a bit of work, but not a full restoration like the A&G poster at all, so it is a nice piece.

[Mikehealer]

That being said, if I wanted something that said it had been repaired, I would place a call and get more explanation if i had a concern.

If they can rave about how great the item is and post a nice size image of it, then a detailed description(as well as before photos) about the repair work should be given as well. A potential buyer shouldn't have to call about this.

To me it's obvious why they left this out, they thought it would hurt the final price.

It's just not that hard to be honest.

[sportsnbikes]

Very informative post. Bidding is still close to 16,000. WOW!

[wonkaticket]

“Leland's is an advertiser here so please keep that in mind. It doesn't change my view but it needs to be said.”

Why should that matter or need to be said? Other than political on your end it shouldn’t concern the rest of us Leon IMO. :confused:

“I think the poster was an oversight and one that got egg on their face.”

Simply not true (minus the egg and face) this thread as well as their responses are conformation that it wasn’t a simple oversight. Let’s lay out the cliff notes for the folks who aren’t going to read this entire thread.


I notice the item for sale and realize that it was the item that Broadway Rick’s Strikezone/Rick Kohl was selling on eBay.


I knew firsthand the history of this poster and the level of damage prior to restoration as did several respected hobby players.


I notified Leland’s offline and privately and provided them with images and detailed insight. Not only was their employee shocked but he agreed with me that it was well more than simple restoration. He even asked how the auction description should be changed to better describe the item with the new information he had received. I explained his response was thank you very much for the heads up let me get with Josh.


Days later I noticed nothing had changed, re-emailed the employee and copied Josh. The response I got was a one sentence response. “It is clearly written in the description regarding restoration” I emailed back Josh and said I politely disagree that the current description accurately described this item.


I then decided to try and warn folks via the boards. With the exact same information I provided Leland’s.


Then after Leland’s took a few lumps on the public boards Josh said he didn’t notice how bad the images were on his phone and until he saw it on here he hadn’t realized how bad. This was a scramble to fix a sinking ship. He had the same images in full resolution days before from his employee etc. when I pointed this out he said he just looked at them quickly missed them and was and I quote “kind of annoyed” whatever that means.


After all this dancing they finally include the new description saying “The poster has had major restoration. However, the appearance is magnificent and the work virtually undetectable.” But no before photos. Also the undetectable line is a joke Stevie Wonder could see where this item has been fixed. Heck you can even see the before and after photos proudly displayed by the company that did the restoration…yet somehow were missed by Leland’s….


Then we are back to the boards to say what gives? Then only after this photos are added.



From day one at the National they have marked this item as one of the finest in existence. They then took this marketing to web and print with a minor foot note of restoration. When notified of the extent of the restoration they dodged and only after a very public flogging they did the right thing.

Bottom line this is what they tried to market.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/AllanandGinterper20Worldqusper20Championsper20Post erper20Lelandqusper20Write-up.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/pict7307.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/Image.jpg

And this is what the item really is…..in this case a picture really is worth a thousand words.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/IMG_8498.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/ag.jpg

What really ticks me off is as a collector with no real vested interest I took my time and did the right thing. I notified them offline to allow them to save face fix the bugs and move on. Allowing them to protect themselves as well as their bidders/customers. However that wasn’t enough I had to go on public boards light up a signal flare point fingers and act like a dick to just to have the right thing done and even then it was a freakin chore.

John

[Cardboard Junkie]

John, you are not a dick. Josh is a dick......and others in this thread are getting close.

[gnaz01]

Wow!! Still brought $18k +

[calvindog]

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72058/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Rock-n-Roll/Rock-n-Roll/Lot1013~High-Grade-Led-Zeppelin-Concert-Ticket

Nice to see this was (not) corrected.

[4815162342]

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72058/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Rock-n-Roll/Rock-n-Roll/Lot1013~High-Grade-Led-Zeppelin-Concert-Ticket

Nice to see this was (not) corrected.

Maybe the winner is a rockin' epidemiologist.

[yanks12025]

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72058/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Rock-n-Roll/Rock-n-Roll/Lot1013~High-Grade-Led-Zeppelin-Concert-Ticket

Nice to see this was (not) corrected.

Jeff,
You should look again, on my screen it says update: according to led zeppelin site the concert was cancelled.

[calvindog]

Jeff,
You should look again, on my screen it says update: according to led zeppelin site the concert was cancelled.

Well look at that! Kudos on that one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe the winner is a rockin' epidemiologist.

I just outbreaked laughing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well look at that! Kudos on that one.

You aren't giving Josh a whole lotta love, are you?

[nolemmings]

consecutive posts from Spaeth--way to ramble on.

[HRBAKER]

consecutive posts from Spaeth--way to ramble on.

I'm thinking the lack of an edit on the poster lot was due to a communication breakdown.

[byrone]

You aren't giving Josh a whole lotta love, are you?


Ramble On

[nolemmings]

When I first went to the link I thought it was Leon's auction, but then realized it couldn't be. Why? No quarter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

When I first went to the link I thought it was Leon's auction, but then realized it couldn't be. Why? No quarter.

Just refreshed the page and saw this -- good one.

[HRBAKER]

When I first went to the link I thought it was Leon's auction, but then realized it couldn't be. Why? No quarter.

Agreed, strong!

[CobbvLajoie1910]

When I first went to the link I thought it was Leon's auction, but then realized it couldn't be. Why? No quarter.


Very, very well played, Sir.

[wonkaticket]

I'm shocked a better auction house like Bonham's didn't Plant this item on Page one. It's just that good.

P.S. Couldn't figure out how to wrap poor John Paul Jones into that one....:)

[E93]

When I first went to the link I thought it was Leon's auction, but then realized it couldn't be. Why? No quarter.


LMAO :p
JimB

[wonkaticket]

I had been interested initially in this Red Sox print (http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/72195/Fall-2013-Catalog-Aution/Sports/Boston-Braves-and-Red-Sox/Lot725~1904-1905-Boston-Baseball-Club-Print-by-Horner) when I saw it the other day, but noticed the two small words at the end of the long description which stated "repaired tears".

I immediately flashed back to this thread and pictured what the "repaired tears" might mean, and held back on my bid.

Thanks again to all for informing the rest of us when you know about things like this - it is very educational and can save us some headaches down the road!

Scott saw this, saw another one of these go off in Verkman does anybody have the old catalogs from this year with this item in it?

Just curious.....

[HRBAKER]

Scott saw this, saw another one of these go off in Verkman does anybody have the old catalogs from this year with this item in it?

Just curious.....

I've got all of the catalogs if you know which one it is in.

[wonkaticket]

Huh so write ups on restored items can be done with full detail. Kudos to H&S these guys took a bit of a rub on the whole "partial" Wagner thing, but props where props are due.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=65067

Cheers,

John

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I agree that the description is misleading. Personally, I liked the poster better with the wear; it had more character.