Printer's Scrap?

[brob28]

I was emailing with a long time collector recently and he told me how suprised he is that so much printers scrap has shown up in recent years in the t206 issue. It got me to wondering if there was as much floating around in the post war era. If you've got some, please show em here or just tell me about what you've seen.

[ALR-bishop]

I am only aware of Anthony G and Larry S and Bob F

[brob28]

Al, I hate to say this but I don't get it...:o

[ALR-bishop]

Sorry Bill. Tell me what constitutes printer's scrap. Anthing like these:

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img016.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/ToppsSheets003.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/ToppsSheets004.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/ToppsSheets002.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/ToppsSheets001.jpg

[brob28]

Hi Al,

I would say those are proof sheets and/or uncut sheets. Here is an example complements of Leon. Maybe in more modern times this stuff was not necessary due to better printing techniques? My understanding of printers scrap is "left overs" from the printer testing by running stock through the printers before running actual cards for distribution or cards missing color runs. I guess proof sheets are the closest we have to this sort of thing in more modern cards?

[ALR-bishop]

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img195.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img633_zps6f64846f.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img215.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img022-1.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj555/Bishop539/img172.jpg

[Exhibitman]

Wow, Al, if you ever want to part with that 1958 Mathews, LMK. Great stuff. What is it with that Nash, I have one of those too.

[steve B]

There's a lot of misprints around, some scrap, some just poor QC.

The misprints like the water mark on the Simmons and Fielder aren't common, but are pretty much one time only things that got through.
Missing colors are closer to scrap, but a lot of them seem to have also been released.

After the early 80's a bunch of stuff started getting out of the printers that would usually be destroyed.

There's the 79 Topps with 78 backs. I think they were a dump find. Originally sold in strips most have been cut into single cards.
I don't have one handy, but there are also a few with Mork and Mindy sticker fronts and baseball backs. But not stickers, printed on cardstock.

Plus a lot of odd setup sheets got out and again most were cut into singles.
Here's one.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=6133

Some stuff got out from earlier too. I have a couple 60's football cards with a color or two very far out of register, like 3/8-1/2 an inch.

In the 78-79 period Topps also used up some sheets that were either setup sheets or simply overruns by printing Bazooka boxes on the "front" leaving card backs inside. I have 78 baseball, and Black Hole, both bought in star market when new.

I really need to scan a bunch of stuff............

Steve B

[steve B]

I forgot to mention that the reason a lot of scrap left the printers back then was that once was trash they'd have to pay to have hauled away was now something a clever employee could sell to card shops.

I saw two sheets cut up that I'd have loved to have bought, but the cost was just way too high. The first was an 82 Topps make ready sheet with a corner torn off and the card printed over the torn area.
Tearing off the corner was how the press operator typically marked the last makeready sheet before the stack of production stuff.

The other was a special sheet of just stars, usually in panels of 3. Topps offered cards by mail in 84, something like send in wrappers and some money for any 10 cards. designed to let people finish sets affordably, it ended with the expected run on stars. So special sheets were printed to cover the demand. Once in a while a panel will come up.

Steve B

[brob28]

Thanks guys. Steve, that is the kind of stuff I was referring to. I should have been more clear in what I meant in that these cards or sheets were not intended to reach the general public but somehow did. This kind of thing is extremely popular in the pre war world side but I never hear much about it post war and was curious how much of it is out there.

Al, those poor registration '58's would be worth a fortune if they were T206's. It's interesting that desire for this type of thing seems to be pretty wide spread in particular with the T206 collectors, enough so that there are pretty high premiums paid for them but they seem to be more a curiosity on the post war side. Of course, when making this statement I'm not referring to examples like the missing "A" Herrera.

[aelefson]

I have one. It is a 1967 Topps Tom Kelley, but it is hard to tell that from the front! The first scan shows the card right side up, the next one, upside down, and the final one shows the normal reverse.

Alan

[brob28]

Very cool Alan. Do you remember where you picked it up?

[Exhibitman]

I have a 67 like that as well. Pretty dramatic stuff when the printer flips the sheet between color runs

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1967%20Versalles%20error.jpg

Leaf was notorious for it; check out the top 3:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1948%20Leaf%20Fields%20misprint%20composite.jpg

[brob28]

Neat stuff Adam. What amazes me is how much of a premium people pay for this type of thing in the T206 "world". This type of thing (at least to my knowledge) does not command a premium in the post-war world. Still to me those are really interesting and in particular those '67's have a great look!

[steve B]

I think a lot of that goes back to Beckett.

Their stock answer about printing problems is that they're curiosities with little or no added value except maybe to player collectors.

For some of the typical mistakes and minor mistakes that's about right.

But for the more spectacular examples it's really not.

I think for T206 collectors some of it is that the set can be "completed" -at least to 520 or 518 fairly easily if you've got the money.
Backs can be had fairly easily too, at least to the level of around 12-13 of 15 brands, (Or 13-14 of 16 if you count the Ty Cobb back ) And 31 of 35 if you go by series and factory.
But misprints are a lot tougher, and add some interest.

I think eventually some errors will get attention in postwar cards. The trick is that some errors are more available for some years/companies than others. 71s missing the black on the back are more common than the same error for most years. Blank backs are pretty tough until about the mid 80's, late 80's early 90's they're common. That makes figuring out a value more difficult.

The ones I regret passing up were a handful of 72 Baseball printed on the wrong sides of the card - so fronts on the cardstock back, and backs on the white finished front. I only saw them mentioned in one small auction in SCD years ago. But the minimum bid was something like $200 each which was just way too much at the time.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

I dunno, Bill, those damned Leaf misprints cost me 20x what a comparable condition card of the same guy would have. Not that I'm griping--they are unique and eye-catching. Leaf is so bad that I'm assembling an all-mistakes set: misprints, missing colors, wrong backs, miscuts.

I think the attraction of printing freaks when it comes to a mainstream set is that it gives you something no one else has and no one else can really hope to have. If you carefully assemble a collection of them it is really quite a sight. An added bonus is that unless/until the set gets hot, the cards are considered trash and are sold for pennies on the dollar compared to a 'better' version. A PSA 8 1971 Munson can run you several hundred dollars; I paid five bucks for this one:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1971%20Munson.jpg

And if the freaks pick up interest, wow, you can make a ton on them if you sell into the wave.

I try to collect one really FUBARed card of each type--misprinted front, bad miscut, blank back, wet sheet transfer, etc.--for each set and I prefer HOFers, just to make it interesting, but I take the ones I can get. Like, here is my 1969 group:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1969%20salmon%20miscut.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1969%20Misprint%20Cisco.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1969%20Jackson%20miscut.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1969%20error%20card%201.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/freaksandgeeks/websize/1969%20Misprint%20Charles.jpg

As for scraps, I find the ones that actually got out more interesting than the stuff that went out the back door of the factory. I suppose the 'oops' factors into that preference; I love the idea that someone's screw-up wasn't caught and is forever immortalized.

[steve B]

That Jackson fascinates me.

From all the Topps sheets I've seen it shouldn't have the black bit at the right. It almost looks like part of a card from a totally different set.

Sort of like the Milton Bradley 68's.

Is the back normal ?

Steve B

[brob28]

Good information and thoughts Adam. I like the idea of collecting a few "freaks" from each set to mix it up, I may have to start that. Perhaps the difference I'm trying to reconcile between pre-war and post is that these are not as openly celebrated by the post war collectors but premiums in some cases do exist.

[tedzan]

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/leafbillyjohnsonsyellow.jpghttp://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abmizellplatt.jpg

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/willjohnson.jpg
TED Z

[brob28]

Wow, love that last Billy Johnson Ted!

[ALR-bishop]

Looks like anything that could go wrong did

[tedzan]

Uncut 36-card sheet with missing colors

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/a493bowman.jpg



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/a49bcolorerrors.jpg

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/12x49BoverprintHiNosB_zpsddc2c182.jpghttp://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/12x49BoverprintHiNos_zpsc85483fe.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/49BslateSniderCampySislerDoby.jpg


TED Z

[tedzan]

Wow, love that last Billy Johnson Ted!

This card was in an original 1949 LEAF gum pack.....Incidently, its back is a normal printing.
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/willjohnson.jpg
TED Z

[tedzan]

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/48bstars49bscheibsalkeld.jpg

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/49BReeseFellerDoerrSauerBimagesB_zpsa11a2774.jpg

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/49BReeseFellerDoerrSauerBimages_zps3cb24f0f.jpg


TED Z

[tulsaboy]

Has anyone ever seen these? Though the scrap is not baseball, the use for the scrap is...

Several years ago I bought a handful of boxes of the 1981 Coke cards in their original 3 cards to a pack packages. The boxes only contained packs from one team per box. The boxes I purchased were the Astros and Royals boxes. There were (I think) about 48 packs to a box. The boxes were formatted just like a normal Topps wax box, but the outside is totally white with no printing whatsoever. Some of the interiors were blank as well, but on a couple of them that I saved, the insides appeared to be the back sides of a sheet of the Topps "Black Hole" set from 1979. Has anyone ever seen unused sheets of cards used in this manner? Thought it might be interesting to someone here...

kevin

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/tulsaboy/ToppsBox2_zps60e20668.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/tulsaboy/media/ToppsBox2_zps60e20668.jpg.html)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/tulsaboy/ToppsBox3_zps54e10a0b.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/tulsaboy/media/ToppsBox3_zps54e10a0b.jpg.html)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/tulsaboy/ToppsBox1_zps9ee0cf26.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/tulsaboy/media/ToppsBox1_zps9ee0cf26.jpg.html)

[steve B]

That's cool! I haven't seen that done on the coke boxes.

I have Black hole and 78 baseball inside bazooka boxes.

They must have had a huge backlog of unfinished Black Hole sheets to be using them two years later.

Steve B

[tedzan]

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1949yankeesslateblue.jpg


TED Z

[brob28]

Ted, were you dumpster diving at the Bowman factory as a kid! :D Seriously, you have an incredible assortment of Bowman print errors - is there something special for you with the Bowmans in particular or is this simply the result of years of collecting print errors?

[tedzan]

Bill

I'm essentially a set collector. Anyhow, after collecting all sorts of cards for 37 years, I've picked up quite a number of printer's errors (scraps).

Most of them are BOWMAN's and LEAF's....but, also from other sets dating back to 1888.


TED Z

[tedzan]

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1949braves4slates.jpg



TED Z

[Tomman1961]

My Dad worked at the Ford car assembly factory in Mahwah, NJ 1955-1980. About 1976 he brought home 2 uncut sheets of Topps cards that were used as packing for some car parts. The sheets were printed, then turned 180 degrees and printed again. Then cut. I guess to test the presses and cutting before production. Where are they now? Well, I figured they were garbage, and tossed them out. Sorry- nothing to show, just a story to tell.

[brob28]

Too bad, I'd love to see that. Very interesting story though, I would never suspect Topps scraps would end up in such a place.

[Tomman1961]

Back then no one would bother wanting to collect this. Heck-even this week I received a truckload of boxes to package my items-I work in manufacturing- and as "slip sheets" I got rejected Elios Pizza boxes on all 4 sides of the pallet, just to protect my boxes.