T206 Wagner partial back. Really Huggins & Scott?

[wonkaticket]

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere.

As a bit of a T206 nut and guy who tends to stray down the path of the crazy T206 errors and back hype. Heck I even tried to buy the "Blue" Old Mill so I'm one to talk. :)

I just find this more than a bit silly….and a real stretch. If not Huggins making the leap what consignor spun this hope and dream story? Makes you wonder.

With no real true sheet this is nothing more than a purchase of faith IMO. Sometimes we deserve to be made fun of as T206 guys. :D

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=63340

Cheers,

John

P.S. I guess this Bowerman was next to all the other machine or non-handcut cut Piedmont Wagner’s we have floating around. :rolleyes:

[E93]

Ridiculous!
JimB

[bn2cardz]

It was discussed but the thread had a very cryptic title so it would have been easily overlooked:

"Strech" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=178050&highlight=stretch)

[g_vezina_c55]

ridiculous!
Jimb

x 2

[wonkaticket]

It was discussed but the thread had a very cryptic title so it would have been easily overlooked:

"Strech" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=178050&highlight=stretch)

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread. :o

At some point shouldn’t an auction house make some effort to limit stuff like this? I expect this stuff on eBay from some guy who has a few cards trying to make the most out of nothing. I don’t however expect to see this from a reputable auction house. Maybe that’s just me.

[g_vezina_c55]

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread. :o

At some point shouldn’t an auction house make some effort to limit stuff like this? I expect this stuff on eBay from some guy who has a few cards trying to make the most out of nothing. I don’t however expect to see this from a reputable auction house. Maybe that’s just me.

not just you john.

Make the most out of nothing... it think like you.

[Leon]

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread. :o

At some point shouldn’t an auction house make some effort to limit stuff like this? I expect this stuff on eBay from some guy who has a few cards trying to make the most out of nothing. I don’t however expect to see this from a reputable auction house. Maybe that’s just me.

The market will decide.

[bn2cardz]

I believe that the card should be listed as the card not what it could possibly be. If the cosignor requests the extra info be added it should be added within the description and clearly stated that it is added at the request of the cosignor that way the auction house isn't the one who looks like they are pulling one over on the collecting community. It is the title of the Auction that bothers me more than giving the extra bit of info. (Of course the price is a bit crazy to)

[ullmandds]

Personally...I think things like this reflect poorly on the auction site...and if I owned one...I would never partake in such nonsense.

[wonkaticket]

The market will decide.

Leon, I disagree with you on this one, well half disagree. :)

While I agree the market will decide to a point. I think some accountability should be with the purveyors of the merchandise also. With a hobby that has newcomers who may not be aware of the nuances of certain issues and why something like the above isn’t a stretch but an almost total leap of blind faith for a myriad of reasons.

I think the first line of defense should be auctions houses looking to protect the hobby they benefit from. Not just playing a blind role and letting some sucker swallow a pill with the “hey we did our part or it’s not for us to decide” attitude. Bottom line if this was a guy on eBay or the BST we would be laughing and poking fun. For me there’s enough hobby knowledge around that most of us would never make such a claim about this card.

In the end for me personally I see these types of things as price tag in someone’s integrity and I see that H&S price starts at 5k opening bid. That’s just my view and respect others who may disagree with me.

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Worth a fifty cent premium.

[Mikehealer]

Nothing more than two snake oil salesmen(AH and consignor) trying to lure someone into buying their venom.

[h2oya311]

How embarrassing!!

I love this line...try to make sense of this nonsense: "But it cannot be reasonably said that this is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner."

Yeah, we'll anything's possible, possibly!!

[brianp-beme]

The back is off-center, so ideally this should reflect negatively upon its ending price when compared to a similiar, well-centered back example. Perhaps the auctioneer should emphasize this defect more in their lot description so as to minimize the consigner's and auction house's take on this card.

Brian

[wonkaticket]

How embarrassing!!

I love this line...try to make sense of this nonsense: "But it cannot be reasonably said that this is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner."

Yeah, we'll anything's possible, possibly!!

Derek, agree funny stuff.

If anyone would like to buy this card for 5k it may be possible it was next to Wagner and it may be possible that it has a partial Wagner back. My integrity is also for sale today and my integrity includes free shipping PayPal is ok. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/websize/sw150miscut_1.jpg

[atx840]

My integrity is also for sale today and my integrity includes free shipping PayPal is ok. :)

PM sent, will you accept PayPal gift/friends?

[Ease]

PM sent, will you accept PayPal gift/friends?

Look at you guys, still trying to save a buck on the sale of Wonka's integrity. Tsk, tsk. You realize that leaves you no buyer protection right Chris? ;)

[TUM301]

personally...i think things like this reflect poorly on the auction site...and if i owned one...i would never partake in such nonsense.

b i n g o !!

[bobbyw8469]

A $30-$50 card with a $5,000 opening bid!! Unbeleivable!! Something tells me the cosignor might have some affiliation with the auction house!

[Leon]

Leon, I disagree with you on this one, well half disagree. :)

While I agree the market will decide to a point. I think some accountability should be with the purveyors of the merchandise also. With a hobby that has newcomers who may not be aware of the nuances of certain issues and why something like the above isn’t a stretch but an almost total leap of blind faith for a myriad of reasons.

I think the first line of defense should be auctions houses looking to protect the hobby they benefit from. Not just playing a blind role and letting some sucker swallow a pill with the “hey we did our part or it’s not for us to decide” attitude. Bottom line if this was a guy on eBay or the BST we would be laughing and poking fun. For me there’s enough hobby knowledge around that most of us would never make such a claim about this card.

In the end for me personally I see these types of things as price tag in someone’s integrity and I see that H&S price starts at 5k opening bid. That’s just my view and respect others who may disagree with me.

Cheers,

John

If a newcomer spends 5k on this type of card then they should be able to handle whatever comes their way. If a used car salesman says the car was only driven by a little ole lady on Sundays...then the engine falls out going out of the used car parking lot, whose fault is that? It's called puffery and is part of sales. Caveat Emptor. And just because it's not on our BST is it really getting a free pass?

[ullmandds]

That's BS!!! Is the world of BB card auctions becoming the wild wild west...it always has to be caveat emptor. Puffery is utilized in sales to sell things that can't stand alone...just like in this situation!

I should rephrase...Goodwins ridiculous writeups are puffery...neverending spewage not related to the item for sale...but this example is desception...and is not the same as puffery!

[bobbyw8469]

And just because it's not on our BST is it really getting a free pass?

True Leon. We are ripping that auction to shreds. However, some PT Barnum subject will surely bid on it. We are talking about the same pool of people that bid on a 1952 Toops Mantle #311 rookie card (SGC 9)!!!

[wonkaticket]

Sorry Chris moved to our Fall Auction.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/5552-1.jpg

Also for you fans of T206 will be a rare “Blank Piedmont miscut Wagner partial back” this rare card was just recently discovered. Having missed its printing of it’s soon to be miscut Piedmont back which naturally would have been Wagner. It may very well be the only blank miscut partial Wagner back card in the hobby. Stay tuned.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/websize/Bowerman.jpg

Catalogs and reminder emails go out next week.

[g_vezina_c55]

Lolol

funny Wonka :)

[oldjudge]

After carefully checking my duplicate Old Judges I would like to announce to the world that I have what might be, not one, but several cards with partial Anson in Uniform backs. This is difficult to confirm, since all Old Judge backs are blank, but I just have a good feeling on these. My local palm reader felt a spirit confirmation from Cap that these cards may be his. Please send all bids quickly--they will not last long! LOL what a joke!

[wonkaticket]

If a newcomer spends 5k on this type of card then they should be able to handle whatever comes their way. If a used car salesman says the car was only driven by a little ole lady on Sundays...then the engine falls out going out of the used car parking lot, whose fault is that? It's called puffery and is part of sales. Caveat Emptor. And just because it's not on our BST is it really getting a free pass?

No Leon saying the wine has hints of oak and caramel with subtle traces and after tones of tobacco is puffery. Claiming the bottle of wine may have been served at the last supper and may have been used to fill Jesus’s glass is called misleading fabrication storytelling and not sales. :)

While I agree there has to be some responsibility with the buyer. The purveyor has a responsibility in this transaction as well. As an owner of an auction house and collector I would hope you would agree appears not.

The above car analogy also outlines more of a fraud than puffery. If a car dealer is telling folks the car is gem as the engine falls out when you drive away he or she was hiding something from the seller. Telling you the chicks dig the 89 Buick Regal is a puffery although mine never got me laid can I sue?

It’s clear you and I have different views on what is considered salesmanship and misleading information to take advantage of someone. You know many of us gave Goldin some serious crap myself included for his Shop At Home days how is this Huggins lot any different I wonder?

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

After carefully checking my duplicate Old Judges I would like to announce to the world that I have what might be, not one, but several cards with partial Anson in Uniform backs. This is difficult to confirm, since all Old Judge backs are blank, but I just have a good feeling on these. My local palm reader confirms a spirit confirmation from Cap that these cards may be his. Please send all bids quickly--they will not last long! LOL what a joke!

Jay can I get one? :D

[oldjudge]

Sorry, the first tranche has already moved. Woops, you are in luck, I just found another.

[btcarfagno]

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread. :o


On another baseball related board I belong to, such a thread (or post) is known as a "Molina".

A "Molina" is any post that is made or thread that is started that turns out to have been made "too slow" because a prior thread or post says the same exact thing. "Molina", of course, in honor of the group of brothers, some of whom are the slowest men in baseball.

Perhaps on this board we could call it something else. A Lombardi perhaps...although that could get confused with a certain Packer head coach. A "Schnozz" maybe?

Tom C

[wolf441]

Sorry Chris moved to our Fall Auction.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/Joss2-1.jpg


Also for you fans of T206 will be a rare “Blank Piedmont miscut Wagner partial back” this rare card was just recently discovered. Having missed its printing of it’s soon to be miscut Piedmont back which naturally would have been Wagner. It may very well be the only blank miscut partial Wagner back card in the hobby. Stay tuned.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/websize/Bowerman.jpg

Catalogs and reminder emails go out next week.



That has to be the post of the year!!! Thanks for brighting up what was a dreary Monday, John :D

[yanks12025]

It does not sound to me like any one disagrees with the research - or the possibility of this being a partial Wagner back.

It sounds to me like some people are upset at the price that the card may bring. Collectors tend to get upset when prices go up, and they do not have the item in question. Are you telling me, that if you owned this card, you would simply sell it for whatever amount a T-206 common sells for? I find this hard to believe. I think you would attach some premium – and it is really the ‘premium’, the amount additional this card should be worth (because of the possibility), that is in question.

I agree with Leon. The market will decide.

[bobbyw8469]

I think you would attach some premium – and it is really the ‘premium’, the amount additional this card should be worth (because of the possibility), that is in question.



Complete BS. It is a fabricated premium. You might as well say ALL T206's are worth $5,000 minimum because they came from the same set as the Honus Wagner.

[ullmandds]

brock...are you looking at the same card here?

[wonkaticket]

Brock you nailed it, just sour grapes plain and simple. Good catch.

[t206fix]

My collection just took a huge upswing in price. I also have a pied 150 Brown, and if you look closely, his eyes are actually looking towards Honus (Three finger knew what was up!) so I'd be willing to let this one go for $2750....

[wonkaticket]

LOL, Tony.

[D. Bergin]

Honestly,this just seems like the evolution of T206 collecting to me. What with premiums for scraps, ghosts, missing colors, added colors, stray dots, missing dots, overprints, underprints, brown backs, brownish/blackish backs.

Always looking for the next big what if, or variation. Seems as if it was only a matter of time before somebody came up with something like this.

Any other set it would just be a miscut or off-center curiousity. Looks like you T206 guys just got what you were asking for. :D

.........and I'd wager whoever this "consignor" is, is most likely one of these advanced "collectors" you all know and love.

[t206fix]

Damn, Wonka -

I just took him out of my safe to polish him up for my big pay day and he's changed a little - I'll still let him go for $2750, any takers? He was still next to Honus...

[wonkaticket]

Dave,

I wouldn’t make this just a T206 thing as it’s a hobby thing with one of ones and highest graded ever ever ever etc. But agree 100% some of us T206 folks are guilty of this stuff and have added fuel to the fire.

Really though most serious collectors of T206 wouldn’t make this leap…this is not a stretch it’s comical. In fact comical enough for another reputable auction house to pass on this card and story when offered.

I think much of this hype is what it is hype.....

My point is there should be some accountability with the sellers also. We as collectors should expect that from the folks who ask for our money. Auction houses need to make sure if one is going to sell off of these wild claims there should be some form of due diligence performed beyond…well I can’t disprove it….so let it ride not my problem. That’s a really dangerous slope that needs to be corrected IMO for the good of the hobby.

Cheers,

John

[ScottFandango]

is huggins and scott still associated with House of Cards in Maryland for tax benefits?

[bobbyw8469]

In my opinion, this is just as bad as those black gentlemen trying to pass of that fake Wagner rookie card as real. OK - we get it, this card is situated beside the Wagner on the sheet. And I can see a case if it was the front of the card, and you saw proof that the Wagner card was there (ie - half of Honus's face). But there is nothing here. Someone is trying to turn a $30 card into a $5,000 card, plain and simple. Next thing you know, Bob Cerv's rookie cards will be worth $50,000 because he was Mantle's roomate.

[D. Bergin]

Dave,

I wouldn’t make this just a T206 thing as it’s a hobby thing with one of ones and highest graded ever ever ever etc. But agree 100% some of us T206 folks are guilty of this stuff and have added fuel to the fire.

Really though most serious collectors of T206 wouldn’t make this leap…this is not a stretch it’s comical. In fact comical enough for another reputable auction house to pass on this card and story when offered.

I think much of this hype is what it is hype.....

My point is there should be some accountability with the sellers also. We as collectors should expect that from the folks who ask for our money. Auction houses need to make sure if one is going to sell off of these wild claims there should be some form of due diligence performed beyond…well I can’t disprove it….so let it ride not my problem. That’s a really dangerous slope that needs to be corrected IMO for the good of the hobby.

Cheers,

John


I don't know John. I think henceforth the T-206 set should not be considered "complete" without the famed Bowerman "Honus Wagner back".

:D



Yes, it's ridiculous, but I'm not exactly surprised an auction house ran with it to test the waters with the oddball T-206 crowd.

[bobbyw8469]

Yes, it's ridiculous, but I'm not exactly surprised an auction house ran with it to test the waters with the oddball T-206 crowd.

If that card gets a bid and sells, I will be SHOCKED!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I asked the last time someone else used similar terminology to describe Edwards and Cobb, if they were white, would you have called them "white gentlemen"? Presumably not. So why identify them as such? No accusations here, I am genuinely interested in why their race is relevant.

[Exhibitman]

I have to ask:

Did John Voight own it?

[honus94566]

I already decided to never bid with these guys again, after the debacle where they came on here justifying their shill bidding, then backing down and claiming they wouldn't do it anymore.

This kind of nonsense just proves my decision right.

I hope they realize that by doing this sort of stuff, they lose the respect of a lot of potential bidders.

[bobbyw8469]

I apologize. I did not know their names. If women had owned it, I would say, those two women. I guess I should just say those TWO PEOPLE to be politically correct.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would think two guys is PC enough.

[bobbyw8469]

There used to be a time when people embraced their heritage. Would Jim Thorpe be ashamed if I called him an American Indian? This world has gotten too PC. I blame Jesse and Al for most of this....

[jp1216]

What if (instead of the back) this card was O/C on the front? What if there was a hint of Wags on the front?

[brianp-beme]

I have a Honus Wagner Sweet Caporal with a blank front that was accidently printed with the portrait of Bowerman.

Brian

[bobbyw8469]

What if (instead of the back) this card was O/C on the front? What if there was a hint of Wags on the front?

Like I said in an earlier post...there is a case for that....a sliver of yellow...the letter "G"....SOMETHING....that card has NOTHING going for it....someone trying to turn $30 into $5,000. That is it.

[barrysloate]

I have to ask:

Did John Voight own it?

Beat me to it.:(

There is a line in the sand between puffery and dishonesty. This one crosses that line. Not the worst transgression I've ever seen, but still not cool.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There used to be a time when people embraced their heritage. Would Jim Thorpe be ashamed if I called him an American Indian? This world has gotten too PC. I blame Jesse and Al for most of this....

I don't think it's a matter of embracing one's heritage or not, more a question whether it's appropriate to initially identify someone by reference to racial/ethnic background.

[bobbyw8469]

I don't think it's a matter of embracing one's heritage or not, more a question whether it's appropriate to initially identify someone by reference to racial/ethnic background.

My black friends referred to me as "the white guy who drove the black honda". I had no problem with that. I am not going to talk race anymore on this thread. I will talk about a Bowerman card trying to pass himself off as being worth $5,000 due to being Wagner's neigbor on the sheet. What will the next craze be - all yellow background T206's because they share the same color as the Wagner???

[atx840]

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/websize/Bowerman.jpg


Now this would be worth 5k.

http://i.imgur.com/ErIrg5W.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

My black friends referred to me as "the white guy who drove the black honda". I had no problem with that. I am not going to talk race anymore on this thread. I will talk about a Bowerman card trying to pass himself off as being worth $5,000 due to being Wagner's neigbor on the sheet. What will the next craze be - all yellow background T206's because they share the same color as the Wagner???

Ask the scrap men, I am sure they will come up with something? :D

[mrvster]

I just read this thread and I'm still peeing my pants!! this is soooooooo funny....:):o

[yanks12025]

Has anyone been able to find a single other example – of a miscut or misprinted – Bowerman - or Brown (portrait) – that contains a part of the card that could be Wagner?

38 days until the auction. Long time to look.

[HRBAKER]

Hysterical leap IMO and at a minimum puffery.
Tells me what they think about the average T206 "oddity" collector.
But OTOH I am rarely surprised at anything in any AH description anymore, way past that.

Reminds me of an ad I saw in SCD many moons ago; "1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Error card - Blank Front and Back

[Vol]

That has to be the post of the year!!! Thanks for brighting up what was a dreary Monday, John :D

+1 Agree!!

[oldjudge]

Brock, is this your consignment. You seem to be the only one defending this pos.

[CW]

Now this would be worth 5k.

http://i.imgur.com/ErIrg5W.jpg

HAha! Nice one, Chris!

Man, if that card actually existed I'd imagine Johnny's head would literally explode from the excitement. :D :D :D

[yanks12025]

No.
I just don’t understand what all the hubbub is about, with the exception of the very funny and witty commentary.
I think the description is straight forward.
Actually I think it shows the strength and intelligence of the house to present the card in the manner in which they have. Straight forward and carefully worded, qualified, explained.
If you do not want to spend the money, then don’t bid.
I would rather have a card that is - possibly a partial Honus Wagner card – than some academic variation, that is of little historical value - and may even consist of a dot on a common player card.
But everyone is entitled to spend their money how they wish!

[bobbyw8469]

I would rather have a card that is - possibly a partial Honus Wagner card

LMFAO!!!!! What?!?!?! I have a 1952 Topps Jake Pitler card!! It could have possibly been in the same pack as a Mickey Mantle card!!!! I shall auction it off - starting bid of $25,000.

[E93]

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

I would rather have a card that is - possibly a partial Honus Wagner card – than some academic variation

Earlier I thought who would buy into this yarn anyway....behold Net54 has once again come thru and delivered my answer. :)

Brock on the off chance you care or perhaps just don't know. Let us know I and others would be happy to explain why this is so off....way off.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

Well said Jim agree.

[Josh Wolf]

It should also be noted that this card was recently purchased from T206 Museum.

http://t206museum.com/page/store_bkmiscut.html

Josh

[MVSNYC]

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

+1

Crazy.

[yanks12025]

Hi John,

I understand very well the arguments relating to the percentage chance that the card contains a partial Wagner.

I will say though – that in now a dozen posts in this one thread – you have restated in different words that the offering is “way off”.

In your 13th post in this thread, why don’t you clearly state – why – you - feel it is “way off”.

[Texxxx]

This is just stupid that they would do this. They have totally lost my respect.
The back of any Wagner has nothing to do with the value and it clearly does not show any of the front.

[Leon]

..........
The back of any Wagner has nothing to do with the value and it clearly does not show any of the front.

I think this is a fair opinion pertaining to the card...... All of the other rhetoric being spewed makes for good reading :).

[yanks12025]

John,

I just re-read your statement: “I guess this Bowerman was next to all the other machine or non-handcut cut Piedmont Wagner’s we have floating around.”



I want to point out one important fact that escaped you – and that has great import with regard to assigning a percentage chance that the card contains a partial Wagner.



It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED.



So it is Not that only 50-100 Wagners were printed. Indeed Wagners may have been printed for weeks/months. There may have been thousands or tens of thousands. Given the speed of communication at that time, this may in fact be likely.

It appears that to avoid legal action, the company ordered that the Wagners be “destroyed”.

But the Bowermans, that may have been printed next to Wagner, were not destroyed.

[atx840]

It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED.

....

It appears that to avoid legal action, the company ordered that the Wagners be “destroyed”.

Source?

Even if that small % of ink was meant for the back of a Wagner, which it was not, it is in no way any % a Wagner.

[steve B]

I've found this thread really amusing, hopefully it won't devolve like a few others have. Johns ad is one of the funniest things I've seen on her in a long time.

I've also given it a lot of thought, and I'm a bit more ambivalent about the auction than most.

I think describing the card as maybe a partial Wagner is a long stretch right now. .
Perhaps in a few years with more research it will be less of a stretch. Maybe even provable someday. But that day is years if not decades away.

Brock has some good points.
We don't know how many were printed
Or what method was used to stop production and destroy any remaining.

But.......
We can make a few good guesses.
There are very few Piedmont Wagners. I can only find references to two, I'd assume maybe another 2-3.
SC Wagners come with both factory 25 and 30 backs. And there are quite a few of them compared to Piedmonts.
The sales figures are approximately known for both brands.
So it's possible to estimate the total number of 150 series cards.

It's likely that SC production of the sheet including Wagner was stopped, probably quicker than weeks or months later. Communication between major cities wasn't all that slow. And there are a number of 150 series cards that show production was either stopped early (Magie) Or stopped and plates redone. (Tinker hands on knees, maybe a couple others)
The numbers lead me to believe no set of plates was run much longer than 3-4 weeks,
I think the Piedmont Wagners are most likely printers scrap, finished fronts used as setup sheets.

The sheet layouts aren't known, not even the overall size. There are some good theories, but nothing proven yet.

It is possible to group each card by small differences in the fronts.
It might be possible to also do that for the backs, but aside from a few major consistent flaws like the plate scratches it's not certain.

So, perhaps someday it will be possible to know what both cards of a miscut back are, but not now. And I doubt there are enough Piedmont Wagners to ever make something like this provable.


I'll leave the value of something like that up to each individual, many of us wouldn't care, some would. Just as some of us would care about a minor caption problem, and some don't. Either view is just fine.

Steve B
PS - Can we all just stop valuing brand differences like Drum and Uzit ? At least until I have one of each? ......didn't think so...

[Cardboard Junkie]

"It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED."
:eek::eek::eek:WHAT!!??? This is important!! Please indicate where this information came from. I'm calling "Bull$hit"!

[sreader3]

It does not sound to me like any one disagrees with the research - or the possibility of this being a partial Wagner back.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I may well be), but I thought all of the Piedmont Wagners are hand-cut. Since this particular Bowerman is factory-cut, wouldn't that preclude the card next to it from being Wagner?

Edited to add: (Or at least strongly argue against it.)

[wonkaticket]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I may well be), but I thought all of the Piedmont Wagners are hand-cut. Since this particular Bowerman is factory-cut, wouldn't that preclude the card next to it from being Wagner?

Edited to add: (Or at least strongly argue against it.)

Yes correct hence my statement above Scott. We have no factory cut Wagners with Piedmont backs.

[bobbyw8469]

The bottom line is - is anyone here going to bid $5,000 for this $30 card!?!?!?!?!?! I can't wait to see the outcome of this auction!

[sreader3]

Hi John,
Sorry, I didn't mean to be redundant. Must have missed your earlier statement to the same effect.
Scot

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes correct hence my statement above Scott. We have no factory cut Wagners with Piedmont backs.

But there could be one in a closet somewhere, or in a parallel universe, so it's still POSSIBLE this is a sliver of a Wagner back.

[Runscott]

Indeed Wagners may have been printed for weeks/months. There may have been thousands or tens of thousands. Given the speed of communication at that time, this may in fact be likely.


They weren't still using the Pony Express in 1909.

Count me among those who don't think this lot deserves any more scrutiny than many of the other pieces of nonsense over-hyped by the AH's. I am; however, curious what Brock would be willing to pay for it, in real U.S. currency.

[wonkaticket]

Brock, I haven’t typed why its way off as I figured it would be a waste of time as you seem to be way into the fantasy world of belief with the Huggins Team on this. The only argument that Huggins is hanging their hat on is that this card must have been next to the Wagner because of the strip that once belonged to Wagner.

That proof strip is very cool but in no way is a final production sheet clearly that can be seen from the graphic elements missing from the strip.

Using this to assume this is how the sheets were laid out. Let alone make the claim that a factory cut production card has remnants of Wagner’s back is an absolute leap of blind faith at best if you’re a collector. If you’re an auction house with any shred of integrity its downright glorified unfounded bull.

Brock reputable auction companies don’t do stuff like this. You will never see an 18th dynasty Egyptian artifact that looks high-end and might have come from a royal court. Try and tie the item to most likely but not for sure belonging to King Tutankhamun. With some drawn out story about how they have pictures of Lord Carnarvon and Howard Carter in the tomb with a similar item so this one could be Tut’s.

There are countless other little nuances and bits of info taken over the years from collectors who share knowledge much is right here on the board to read. All of these also put further death nails in this cocked up story spun by Huggins & Scott.

Hope this helps….

What a surprise this has ties to Patrick Chan even more reason to run for the hills on this epic yarn. :)

[Leon]

What a surprise this has ties to Patrick Chan even more reason to run for the hills on this epic yarn. :)

Did I miss something? How does this tie to Chan?

[wonkaticket]

Hi John,
Sorry, I didn't mean to be redundant. Must have missed your earlier statement to the same effect.
Scot

Scot, you have forgotten more about these cards than I know...the day you need to say sorry to me on T206 stuff...that's the day I pony up my opening bid of 5k on a "partial" Wagner Piedmont back. :D

No worries brother.

[wonkaticket]

It should also be noted that this card was recently purchased from T206 Museum.

http://t206museum.com/page/store_bkmiscut.html

Josh

Did I miss something? How does this tie to Chan?

Use the search feature you newbie. (Kidding) :D

[wonkaticket]

But there could be one in a closet somewhere, or in a parallel universe, so it's still POSSIBLE this is a sliver of a Wagner back.

Peter, you're right what about an attic? :D

[ullmandds]

i think brock and steve are looking for jobs as auction puffers...I'd send resume's directly to huggins and scott!

[tschock]

i think brock and steve are looking for jobs as auction puffers...I'd send resume's directly to huggins and scott!

Better a puffer than a fluffer. At least with the former, you're only trying to get ahead.... :eek:

[T206Collector]

This is nothing short of another enterprising seller trying to exploit T206 collectors' desire to own a piece of the famed Wagner card without delivering an actual piece of an actual Wagner card.

"But it cannot be reasonably said that this is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner." Wrong. This is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner card because there is no evidence that Wagner's front ever appeared on it. A Wagner is made by the front, not the back.

[steve B]

i think brock and steve are looking for jobs as auction puffers...I'd send resume's directly to huggins and scott!

I'm not saying the card is what they it might be. There's so much against it that it really shouldn't have been written up like that without a lot more than a maybe preproduction maybe uncut strip to back it up.

I am saying that someday having something far more solid might be possible.

But probably not for a Wagner/Piedmont.

Just the compiling pics of the plate scratches has shown some subjects that can't be from the same sheet. Eventually we'll know more.

Steve B

[T206Collector]

Eventually we'll know more.

But you'll never know that the front of this card has a Wagner on it. Whether a card was cut from a sheet that had another card on it is fun to talk about, but doesn't make a Bowerman a Wagner, partial or otherwise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"But it cannot be reasonably said that this is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner."

That is unequivocally the worst equivocal description I have ever read.

[D. Bergin]

Maybe Panini or Topps will bid on it, chop it up into 100 pieces and make a special commemorative insert card out of it.

1/100 Gold Refractor Diamond Inlaid rare Bowerman/Wagner remnant card. Maybe they can even throw a half signature of Ted Williams on the same card for good measure.........or better yet, just one letter of his handwriting and include a JSA Basic Cert..................but you have to send it in along with $75 to get the Full Certificate.

Oh, the endless possibilities. :D

[T206Collector]

"But it cannot be reasonably said that this is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner."

That is unequivocally the worst equivocal description I have ever read.

Totally agree. It uses double negatives to try to make a positive, without ever saying the positive, which would be:

"But it CAN be reasonably said that this IS possibly a partial Honus Wagner."

Again, just not true.

[markf31]

Using this to assume this is how the sheets were laid out. Let alone make the claim that a factory cut production card has remnants of Wagner’s back is an absolute leap of blind faith at best if you’re a collector. If you’re an auction house with any shred of integrity its downright glorified unfounded bull.

Brock reputable auction companies don’t do stuff like this.

I agree for the most part with your points here John, however, as I was reading through the thread and forming my own opinion a thought came to mind.

Some of you may venture from time to time over to the memorabilia side, more specifically the game used memorabilia side of not only the board here but of the hobby as well, but some of you may not. My observations are that in general vintage equipment, uniforms and to a degree pre-model bats all (baring rock solid personal provenience) are determined to be "game used" by nothing more than conjecture based on a set of at times very lose criteria.

Outside of personal provenience, its an educated guess at best based on a set of limited available information if a pre war jersey or piece of equipment is in fact game used. Yet, that doesn't prevent auction houses and other companies from authenticating the pieces and labeling them as being genuine game used equipment when they're consigned. They are in fact making a very similar leap of faith with a lot of the vintage pre war "game used" equipment that gets consigned and auctioned. The information available to authenticate these pieces is sparse and pretty limited if not non existent in some cases. Just because a glove matches the type/style used by Ty Cobb, or a pre-model bat matches the kind of bat used by Lou Gehrig does not grantee that Cobb or Gehrig every touched that piece of equipment let alone use it in a game. Yet they can be authenticated as such because they meet a set of limited and sparse qualities and attributes.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just stating that the same type of assumptions and leaps of faith are made all the time by auction houses when they auction vintage game used equipment.

[Runscott]

I would say that owning this card would be about as exciting as standing next to someone who might have had sex with the most attractive woman on the planet (the assumption being made because he at one time lived next door to her sister).

Boy, the stories I could then tell my friends.

[BobC]

I rarely post and just read the nonsense that goes on with posts like this and get a good laugh. Can't believe I've actually read this entire thread but, having done so, I noticed there are some facts no one has pointed out yet.

As already noted in the thread, supposedly all the sheets with Wagner cards on them were to have been destroyed. If so, that means the Bowerman (and Brown) cards that were next to Wagner would have likewise been destroyed at the same time. The known Wagner cards are all supposed to be hand-cut which, since the Bowerman card in the auction is supposedly machine cut, would rule out the possibility it was actually printed next to a Wagner card on the sheet it originally came from. Still, assume the possibility that somehow the Bowerman card just looks to be machine cut and could have been next to a Wagner.

Are there any known Sweet Caporal backed Wagners that have a misaligned/miscut back on them anything like this Bowerman card? I personally do not know the answer to that but, if there aren't any, then how could there possibly be a Bowerman card with such a miscut/misaligned back that was next to a real Wagner card? You can't have one without the other.

BobC

[Runscott]

As already noted in the thread, supposedly all the sheets with Wagner cards on them were to have been destroyed. If so, that means the Bowerman (and Brown) cards that were next to Wagner would have likewise been destroyed at the same time. The known Wagner cards are all supposed to be hand-cut which, since the Bowerman card in the auction is supposedly machine cut, would rule out the possibility it was actually printed next to a Wagner card on the sheet it originally came from.
BobC

Nice, Bob. You just rendered the 'Pony Express' communication theory irrelevant.

[E93]

The silence from Huggins and Scott here is deafening.
JimB

[Sean]

The silence from Huggins and Scott here is deafening.
JimB

I think that they just accepted the consignor's description of the card (and possibly printed it verbatim) and are now too embarrassed to try to defend it. :rolleyes:

[T206Collector]

The silence from Huggins and Scott here is deafening.
JimB

I'm guessing they were thinking, "This is funny, and no one will bid on it. But, if someone does, then hey, we just got a little richer and some (albeit awful) publicity."

[yanks12025]

John,

The top institutions, and auction houses, regularly present items that they do not have all the firm answers to.

The market determines a value based on the uncertainties.


Here is your King Tut questionable item -


http://www.herkimercommunitymuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/TUT-Illustrated-Catalog.pdf

54. Ankh Mirror Case. Found in the Treasury where it had been stripped by the grave robbers
of the silver mirror it once contained, this regal mirror case was fashioned of wood covered in
sheet gold and embossed with both the royal and personal names of the pharaoh. Since the
hieroglyphic ankh symbol for life (represented in the form of sandal straps) was also the symbol
for mirror, the witty artisan who crafted this unique case was indulging in a playful pun. Within
the loop (as in a cartouche), a hieroglyph of Tutankhamun’s throne name, Nebkheprure, is
incorporated into a sacred motif inlaid with carnelian, quartz, and colored glass. The design
ritually depicts the creation of the universe with the birth of the sun god (Re), rendered as a
scarab (kheper) rising forth from the primordial lotus (its corolla crowned by the neb basket).
Although it might have been intended exclusively for funerary purposes, this delightful amulet
may well have been one of the pharaoh’s treasured personal belongings.

(one of his most treasured personal items? or used at his funeral?)


Christies auction lots -

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/books-manuscripts/book-of-hours-unidentified-use-in-latin-5685594-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5685594&sid=88079478-0d29-4de8-a2bd-848efd22183f

... cowled saint behind St Margaret is probably Gerard, the patron saint of their eldest son. One of the daughters, probably the eldest, is Margareta, wife of Georges Sersanders, whose fourth child was born in about 1502. The use of the feminine form for one prayer may mean that the book was intended for Margareta ...


http://www..christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-small-imperial-cloisonne-enamel-bottle-vase-5689735-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5689735&sid=88079478-0d29-4de8-a2bd-848efd22183f

Examination of a limited number of metal objects, which have survived from the Western Zhou dynasty (1046-771 BC), suggests that the use of small amounts of enamel inlaid into metal may have been current in China from this early date. An iron axe blade in the collection of the Freer Gallery in Washington, D.C., and a bronze ladle in the collection of the British Museum, London, appear to have reddish brown glass-paste inlay, while the axe also has green glass-paste inlay. Technical analysis revealed that these were siliceous enamels coloured with cuprous oxide [1]. Both the axe and the ladle have been dated to the 11th century BC, and it has been confirmed that the siliceous enamels are original to the pieces. The use of what would have been applied as molten glass to provide decoration on metal also appears on items of the Warring States period, the Han and the Tang dynasties, albeit that objects thus decorated have not survived in great numbers...However it appears to have been in the Yuan dynasty that Chinese craftsmen began to produce fully developed cloisonne enamelled wares and their wares reached a high standard [4]...

[ullmandds]

So with these analogies to other totally unrelated antiquities...are baseball cards entering this realm...where restorations and other preservation techniques will be deemed not only acceptable...but in a lot of cases the norm?

I don't think so!

This is apples to oranges...even comparing memorabilia to cards...is apples to oranges.

[steve B]

But you'll never know that the front of this card has a Wagner on it. Whether a card was cut from a sheet that had another card on it is fun to talk about, but doesn't make a Bowerman a Wagner, partial or otherwise.

I don't think never is necessarily correct.

Once the sheet size and layout is known then individual positions on each plate will probably be identifiable. At the moment it looks like common players were on more than one sheet, and that more than one back plate was used. the 150's were probably done in at least three press runs with changes made between each one.

For instance Magie comes with backs that only match with certain details on the front. And at least some Magees share an identifiable back with Magie. There are at least six different Magies.

So each instance of a Wagner on a sheet will probably have a particular and identifiable back that may or may not be shared with another card. If it's not shared then identifying one from the back should be possible.
Whether the differences will be near enough to the edge to tell from a slight miscut isn't likely, but possible.

Of course, as of right now it's not possible. And I don't expect it to be for a long time.

Steve B

[Sean]

If they really want "the market" to determine this card's value, start the bidding at $10 and see where it ends up. I'll bet it never reaches $75, unless someone else wants to bid against Brock.

[T206Collector]

I don't think never is necessarily correct. . . . Once the sheet size and layout is known then individual positions on each plate will probably be identifiable.

My point is that since no part of a Wagner front shows up on the Bowerman, any proof or theories regarding sheet placement will always be speculative. Moreover, even if you proved with 100% certainty that this card once shared a sheet with Wagner, and the Wagner would have been on the front of the card next door, you still do not have a piece of a Wagner because none of its front shows up.

It is purely a ruse. Engaging in rationale discourse about sheet theory lends more truth to it than it deserves.

[ullmandds]

EXACTLY!!!

My point is that since no part of a Wagner front shows up on the Bowerman, any proof or theories regarding sheet placement will always be speculative. Moreover, even if you proved with 100% certainty that this card once shared a sheet with Wagner, and the Wagner would have been on the front of the card next door, you still do not have a piece of a Wagner because none of its front shows up.
It is purely a ruse.

Engaging in rationale discourse about sheet theory lends more truth to it than it deserves.[/QUOTE]

[wonkaticket]

Brock, you're just looking to argue no thanks. You asked why earlier I didn't outline more to you its clear it would be a waste of time.

Also nice quick google searches, hope you didn't spend too much time on them. :D

What you have shown above isn't even apples to apples. it just further highlights that you can't seem to grasp what many of us are saying about Huggins & Scott's auction listing.

At least the items you dug up from the internet have provenance and historical ties that may allow them to be part of or possibly tied to historical figures or times. In other words they have presented real research that shows the possibility and that research is also accepted by a community of peers.

It isn't some made up fish story made out to be fact with its only argument being well you can't say for 100% it didn't happen that way. That's not how the academic and antiquities worlds work.

But again I'm wasting time....

If you really feel this partial Wagner thing isn't a stretch or a complete false statement with little to no evidence to support such a bold claim. Then no wonder so many of the Bill Mastros of the world have practiced their trade with little to no resistance must be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

For sale: single signed Babe Ruth baseball. Could be the ball he hit for his 714th and final home run. No provenance, but it cannot be conclusively proved that it is NOT that ball. And it goes without saying that it cannot be conclusively proved that it is not his signature.

[glchen]

I think that they just accepted the consignor's description of the card (and possibly printed it verbatim) and are now too embarrassed to try to defend it. :rolleyes:

H&S actually put this card on their front page as one of their auction highlights. So even if they just accepted the description of the card from the consignor, IMHO, they're equally at fault for hyping it.

I wonder if Mastro kept the scrap shavings from the trimmed Wagner PSA 8. If he knew just a slice of it could get 5K with this much doubt whether it's even from a Wagner, what would a slice of a genuine Wagner fetch?

[ullmandds]

good point Gary...but I'm guessing they disposed of the "evidence!"

[bobbyw8469]

H&S actually put this card on their front page as one of their auction highlights. So even if they just accepted the description of the card from the consignor, IMHO, they're equally at fault for hyping it

OMFG! You are joking right?????? What is our hobby coming to?

[atx840]

For what it is worth, I spoke to the owner at the Net54 diner (great guy) regarding this card and they had most of the details ready to send to H&S.....it was an interesting discussion but I did not think it would actually come to fruition.

I think its ridiculous the AH went ahead with it. :eek:

[HRBAKER]

If you really feel this partial Wagner thing isn't a stretch or a complete false statement with little to no evidence to support such a bold claim. Then no wonder so many of the Bill Mastros of the world have practiced their trade with little to no resistance must be like shooting fish in a barrel.

They practice(d) their trade selling to many an educated collector as well.

[T206Collector]

This auction simultaneously mocks the T206 collector, and the many genuine approaches and intricacies of collecting the Monster, while at the same time attempting to drive traffic to its website by the very same collectors. Perhaps they think we'd be in on the joke. Ironically, it is anathema to all of the truly excellent research and discourse about the T206 set - an obvious attempt to take a growing body of knowledge and profit by distorting it.

Could you imagine a brand new auction house leading with this listing? Of course not. You have to build up some amount of credibility in the industry before going with this one. It has to be dismissible as an aberration, otherwise it would forever taint your business. By the looks of this thread, the stain may still last.

Take it down, H&S. Do yourself a favor. Show a little more respect to your customers.

[ullmandds]

Agreed Paul...honestly...the shilling debacle...now this...not a good trend for H & S in my opinion...from someone who used to go to the brick and mortar house of cards...I will not deal with this auction house.

[yanks12025]

Why haven't any of you answered my question yet? If this was your card I'd be willing to bet over 75% of you would try to get some sort of premium instead of just selling it for the $30 as a common.

[ullmandds]

brock...your question is ridiculous as this card is a t206 common that has nothing in common with a t206 wagner. it's worth what a t206 bowerman with a miscut back is worth(and not even miscut enough to warrant a premium)...which aint much!

[wonkaticket]

The silence from Huggins and Scott here is deafening.
JimB

I will say I had a nice call from Bill this evening. He called because he wanted to hear my thoughts on this topic/lot. He was very open in the fact that he didn't know tons on T206's and took the consignors lead and that the consignor presented what looked like a ton of well thought out research.

I happily explained the reasons I felt the card and the claims being made by the consignor were unfounded. I also asked Bill to read this whole thread and not to just take my view on it. Bill's stance was that he needed to read through this thread a bit more to wrap his head around the details shared by all and armed with those details contact his consignor with those findings.

That’s where it left off……thought I would share.

Cheers,

John

[ullmandds]

Yet he knows enough about t206's that he's been collecting miller huggins cards with all the backs for decades...and supposedly was/is hoarding shag shawnessy cards?!?!

[tbob]

Ridiculous!
JimB

+1. I thought this was a joke when I first start reading this thread.

[glchen]

Why haven't any of you answered my question yet? If this was your card I'd be willing to bet over 75% of you would try to get some sort of premium instead of just selling it for the $30 as a common.

Brock, this is just a really bad argument. It's like saying that if you owned the Cincinnati Wagner, you'd be trying to get every last buck for it like the current owners are doing. John and others have explained why it is very doubtful that the edge belongs to a Wagner (no Piedmont Wagners were factory cut). Therefore, that's most likely not a Wagner sliver right there, so if you owned this card, and you knew this information, it means that you're basically willing to scam someone for money.

[the 'stache]

Damn, Wonka -

I just took him out of my safe to polish him up for my big pay day and he's changed a little - I'll still let him go for $2750, any takers? He was still next to Honus...

Tony, you might check your safe again. Something seems amiss. :eek:

http://imageshack.us/a/img5/7373/cemg.png

[Sean]

+1. I thought this was a joke when I first start reading this thread.

You were right the first time. It is a joke.

[Sean]

My point is that since no part of a Wagner front shows up on the Bowerman, any proof or theories regarding sheet placement will always be speculative. Moreover, even if you proved with 100% certainty that this card once shared a sheet with Wagner, and the Wagner would have been on the front of the card next door, you still do not have a piece of a Wagner because none of its front shows up.
It is purely a ruse.

+1
Isn't it ironic that this consignor got this card from the T206 Museum. It appears Patrick Chan was selling this card as a simple Bowerman, not a "partial Wagner." Even Chan had more integrity than to try that.
And yes, using Patrick Chan and integrity in the same sentence is a first for me.

[yanks12025]

How in the world are you so certain that the Piedmont Wagners were hand cut?

How in the world are you so certain that more, perhaps many more, Piedmont Wagners were not printed and destroyed? We know Piedmont Wagners were printed.

Do you Really think they would have thrown out Entire sheets to destroy/discard just one card?! Intuitively, does this make any sense to anybody? Financially, does this make any sense to anybody? particularly with the expense of the different color inks.

This is your opinion - which is being stated as fact.

[Sean]

There are to date only 2 Wagners with Piedmont backs that we know of. One appears to have been a scrap, and was hand cut. Check the Wagner Gallery on T206Resource.com.
The other is the Gretzky Wagner, which was cut from a sheet and later trimmed by Bill Mastro.
We can't prove that no other Wagner Piedmonts were ever produced, but since none have ever turned up it seems likely that production was halted after the Sweet Caporals were produced, but before the Piedmont print run.

[yanks12025]

It appears that a printing of Sweet Caporal, with Wagner, was not only completed, but that cards had already made their way out into the world, and that at a minimum, Piedmont was on the presses - with Wagner. And some Piedmont Wagners had been printed.

We don't know how much of a run with Wagner there was in Piedmont. Wagner may have been there the whole run, and they destroyed them.

Perhaps they could not destroy all the Sweet Caporal as they had already left the factory by the time word came. So it was not that factory workers did not listen, a number of Sweet Caporal had already gone out. But perhaps the Piedmont Wagners were all still there to destroy.

When examining what is before us, for now, and 20 years from now, I think you first need 'a world of the possible' to examine. This card, this idea, of possible partial Wagners from the sheet, must include Piedmont, as we know Piedmont Wagners were printed.

I honestly think it is the money aspect here that is clouding objective perspective. This is an interesting topic, card, etc. That should not be dismissed on momentary fancy.

I believe Steve is correct, in that there is more that can be discovered.

In my opinion, there is nothing unholy or improper about any of this. It is possible and interesting.


As a side, the inauthentic Wagner, and the inauthentic card variations, created to defraud, are not proper, possible, or interesting. They are fraud.


Also as a side, how do we know the Mastro Wagner was originally hand cut, and not a large (or about regular size) factory cut, that was trimmed?

[ullmandds]

a partial front Wagner would be interesting...THIS partial "back" of a Wagner is not interesting at all...it's just plain stupid...and ridiculous!

[GrayGhost]

a partial front Wagner would be interesting...THIS partial "back" of a Wagner is not interesting at all...it's just plain stupid...and ridiculous!

:):):):)

[yanks12025]

Lol

– others find possible missing periods, apostrophes, and color - not interesting, just plain stupid, and ridiculous

[steve B]

It appears that a printing of Sweet Caporal, with Wagner, was not only completed, but that cards had already made their way out into the world, and that at a minimum, Piedmont was on the presses - with Wagner. And some Piedmont Wagners had been printed.

We don't know how much of a run with Wagner there was in Piedmont. Wagner may have been there the whole run, and they destroyed them.

Perhaps they could not destroy all the Sweet Caporal as they had already left the factory by the time word came. So it was not that factory workers did not listen, a number of Sweet Caporal had already gone out. But perhaps the Piedmont Wagners were all still there to destroy.

When examining what is before us, for now, and 20 years from now, I think you first need 'a world of the possible' to examine. This card, this idea, of possible partial Wagners from the sheet, must include Piedmont, as we know Piedmont Wagners were printed.

I honestly think it is the money aspect here that is clouding objective perspective. This is an interesting topic, card, etc. That should not be dismissed on momentary fancy.

I believe Steve is correct, in that there is more that can be discovered.

In my opinion, there is nothing unholy or improper about any of this. It is possible and interesting.


As a side, the inauthentic Wagner, and the inauthentic card variations, created to defraud, are not proper, possible, or interesting. They are fraud.


Also as a side, how do we know the Mastro Wagner was originally hand cut, and not a large (or about regular size) factory cut, that was trimmed?

The problem is that there's so much that isn't known about the production and distribution of any T206. Stuff like the sheet size and makeup can probably be figured out, although maybe not with absolute certainty. Other things, especially anything about how they were sent from ALC to the various factories will probably never be known.

Without that, there's no way of knowing when or how the Wagner was removed from production. There are a number of possibilities, but none provable.

My current thinking is that there were a few sheets common to all brands in a group, and others that were specific to a brand and factory and sales area.

So it's not certain that Wagner would have been on a regular production Piedmont sheet. The two that we know of argue against it.

As for destruction of completed work, that depends. While nobody likes doing it, it happens. We did a huge batch of course catalogs for MIT. And delivered maybe half of them. There was no space left in the office we delivered them to after we left. We were even putting a case under each desk and under chairs. A couple months later we threw away the rest, around 25,000 of them. Printed, bound into books, packed. And I had to open the boxes and dump them all- No point in wasting the boxes. But the company was paid for them.
So yes, if Wagner got ATC to stop distribution and ATC paid ALC for the sheets or even finished cards, then ALC may have decided to toss them all rather than spend the effort to remove just the Wagners. (Even with fairly low labor costs)

As things stand now, I would simply consider the card to be a P150 with a miscut back. It's one I'd maybe pay a small premium for, but more like 40-50 instead of 30.
Making the Wagner claim is so far outside what's currently known that there needs to be more proof. And there simply isn't.

I'm familiar with this, in one of my other hobbies I wrote an article about an item that was known from records to have been produced, written about in 1932, then the 1932 article was essentially proven wrong - Until I found one that was provable. And oddly, it's only provable because of what's essentially a miscut showing a fraction of a plate number. And it's provable because the location of the plate number is different from the ones that are commonly mistaken for the one I found. (keep in mind, this is something where the sheet size, layout, method of production, exact number produced etc are all known.

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brock, is that you? :D

[wonkaticket]

Brock, how long have you and the consignor been buddies? :D

[Cardboard Junkie]

Brock, how long have you and the consignor been buddies? :D

:) Isn't it bromantic?:D

[wonkaticket]

+1
Isn't it ironic that this consignor got this card from the T206 Museum. It appears Patrick Chan was selling this card as a simple Bowerman, not a "partial Wagner." Even Chan had more integrity than to try that.
And yes, using Patrick Chan and integrity in the same sentence is a first for me.

+1 and very funny.

[hugginsandscott]

After being made aware of some additional information regarding Piedmont backed Wagner's, we, along with the consignor, have opted to pull the card from the auction.

Thanks,
Huggins and Scott Auctions

[ullmandds]

let the love fest begin!

[t206hound]

H&S pulled their card, but check out what Joe's Vintage has to offer:
http://jvscauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=5904

[Rob D.]

H&S pulled their card, but check out what Joe's Vintage has to offer:
http://jvscauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=5904

Classic. Title alone makes it deserving of a bid.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

After being made aware of some additional information regarding Piedmont backed Wagner's, we, along with the consignor, have opted to pull the card from the auction.

Thanks,
Huggins and Scott Auctions


:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

[ZachS]

Well I hope you guys are happy. I was prepared to go as high as necessary to get that card and now it's gone.

Thanks, jerks.

[Runscott]

Classic. Title alone makes it deserving of a bid.

Laugh, but some of the white cardboard on the back of that Bowerman could actually be part of a Wagner.

[Sean]

Classic. Title alone makes it deserving of a bid.

+1

[T206Collector]

Thank you H&S - faith restored.

[4815162342]

Classic. Title alone makes it deserving of a bid.

+1 Hilarious!