T206 Survey Piedy 42 Light VS. Dark...

[mrvster]

Hello all.
after chatting with board member , Adam G., we have been wondering about the scarcity of Pied 42 different shaded backs(some piedmont 350-460 Fact 42 N.C. are a darker blue, where some are lighter blue).....

I have been following 42's since "99 and used to think the "darker" ones were 4x rarer than the "lighter ones"



I now see that it looks to be about 50/50......

Lets see those Piedy 42's and lets see which ones are "light" VS. "dark" blue


:)

[Gradedcardman]

Johnny,
I'm at 55-45 dark vs light for me.

[frankbmd]

:eek:

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Johnny,
I've been trying to determine if the Darks and lights were done on purpose for years... I'll post tomorrow when I have time...

Be well Brian


PS You catch one big "Blue" fish and start to wonder.... ;)

[t206hound]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/28/nu7ezudu.jpg

Burch and Bradley... Now slabbed and consigned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[wazoo]

I have one light and one dark. Light Snodgrass and dark Jordan.

[mrvster]

Adam...

What an accomplishment:eek:

Brian......you are the guru;)......I know you have been contemplating this one:)

Waz and Erick thankx.....

Keep 'em coming guys....:D

Frank

Thank you great card

[Mikehealer]

Johnny
Here's some I used to own. I'll let you decide on light/dark.

http://photos.imageevent.com/mhgt/hoft206/fortrade/huge/Piedmont%2042%20montage.jpg

[mrvster]

Thanks! one or two are with me;)

[MVSNYC]

I've owned several P42's over the years, i find the darker ones to be rarer...most of the ones i encounter are light blue, and not too bold...also, many P42's i see are centered to the right.

Here's mine, it's the darkest/boldest one i've ever seen:

[Gradedcardman]

Very Nice !!

[DerekMichael]

I apologize for bouncing off of the original topic, but has anyone else noticed this exact same thing with Uzit backs? I remember a couple of others mentioning this on a past thread, and I certainly agree. One appears very light, while the others appear to be much darker. It could just be a fade, but it honestly does not seem like it.

Sorry for bouncing off the original topic, but I find this thread pretty interesting and I would like to know more about why some inks are darker and some are lighter. I remember how cool it was when the Sovereign 350's color variations were explained to me. It makes sooooo much sense. Maybe there is a reason for this too?

Cool thread!

Derek

[Ronnie73]

I have four or five which I'll post tomorrow. Speaking of off topic but more likely related is the same light and dark Piedmont 42's in the T205 Gold Border set also. I'll post some of them too.

[MVSNYC]

Derek- i used to own your last (boldest) Uzit. i have specifically focused on trying to find the boldest, darkest examples of each back. enjoy that card (Mullin).

[ValKehl]

My only Piedy 42 is this one - do I correctly guess that this one is considered "dark"?

[DerekMichael]

Derek- i used to own your last (boldest) Uzit. i have specifically focused on trying to find the boldest, darkest examples of each back. enjoy that card (Mullin).

Nice! I absolutely love the Mullin. Did you know that he pitched a no hitter on the 4th of July? It was his birthday to boot :)

I agree that there is something interesting with the shades of ink. Maybe it is a matter of fading, but if it pertains to printing groups, or something similar to the Sovereign 350 variations, that would be really awesome. Personally, I am stumped as to what it could mean, but I am sure there are at least a handful of people here who have some pretty interesting theories (assuming it is not just a fade, which would obviously not be as fun :/ )

[mrvster]

keep 'em coming guys! great input...

btw....I believe the uzits are different in they are "shades" off, where as the 42's are almost a powder or baby blue, then the other piedys are a type of navy blue...more of a dramatic color change on the 42's, but I do see what your sayn' bout uzits:D


:)

[Texxxx]

Here is my only 42. It is a McIntyre (B&C).

[Gradedcardman]

Val,

Good question on whether that is considered dark. When I went through the ones I own I put that shade into the light pile. However I want to hear what Johnny and Brian think when they see the card. That may change my percentages on my group.

[E93]

I have noticed the same phenomena with Uzits. THey certainly seem to come in either dark blue or light/powder blue. I don't see much ambiguity about which are which.
JimB

[atx840]

A few I've owned Johnny.

http://i.imgur.com/NNOmdgl.jpg

[tedzan]

I've had only 5 - 42's in my collection. The 4 pictured here, and a Rucker. Four of them have lighter blue backs; and, the Baker appears
to have a darker blue back.

The blue Chase is still mine....the other 4 were traded (or sold) to Net54 members.



..http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/achasep460factory42.jpg....http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bakerpiedmont46042.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bchasep460factory42.jpg.....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BakerPIEDMONT460x42.jpg


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/ChanceDouhertyP460x42_zpsfbe490af.jpg
....http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/ChanceDoughertyP460x42b_zpsc16b9392.jpg




TED Z

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

DEVORE....FORD....GANDIL....McGRAW (glove)....PFEFFER....SHECKARD (glove)

[CaramelMan]

The light versions look like bleached cards....I know some people have said they put some bleach in when soaking to remove residue...any way this could be bleached examples?:confused:

[DerekMichael]

In regards to the Uzit, the top one I pictured is Jennings "both hands". What I have noticed is that it appears the other Uzit Jennings "both hands" have this exact same color of lightly shaded blue. I could very well be mistaken, but that is what it looks like to me. It might be happening with specific subjects, but I certainly have not seen enough in person or even enough overall to be 100% of anything I have seen. I t honestly seems like there could be a pattern, or a reason, and obviously the same thing the Piedmont 42's. Also, the smart guys have discovered variations in the Sovereign 350's which makes perfect sense, and the fact that some Lenox's are inked in Brown and some are Black, though I am not sure if the Brown and Black signify anything specific other than when they were printed as I have seen Marquard "follow through" with brown and black (the brown I did not see in person, but in a past REA auction as part of a rare back lot).

Come on net54 geniouses, lets crack the code. Who knows, maybe I am nuts, but I agree with other net54 members that something interesting might be cooking here. I know I would love to gain an understanding of what is up, but it is going to take someone with far more T206 savvy than I.

[mrvster]

GREAT INPUT!

Ted, your Chase and Baker are the classic "light " vs. "dark" examples contrasted next to each other...

there are a few that pop up that are borderline...I can usually differentiate them because of my scrap eye....;)


to answer the question, I don't think any of them would be bleached( some lighter ones would actually smell like bleach).....i'm a little nuts and whiff all my cards:o ...... id probably taste them if I could:D....but good thought:)

I'm thinking:


the two different colors are two complete different printings spaced some time apart for some reason(this is only a theory of mine).. 2 complete different bulk ink supplies....


or a stretched blue by adding white to extend the blue , causing a "baby" blue color...STEVE WHERE ARE YOU??

Craig Wright?

Jimmy??

TC??



:confused:

[mrvster]

that Schlei is prob the darkest I have seen....thanks for sharing Mike:)

even the "darker" 42's that are the "light" ones can pick out that illuminescent blue if there is such a term...

that's a hands down dark Schlei:eek:

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Johnny,
We have kicked this around quite a bit, but haven't figured out a pattern or how many different shades of blue exist.... I will try to post around 20 backs when I have a chance... Monday is a busy day... Maybe late tonight.
Be well Brian

[tedzan]

GREAT INPUT!

Ted, your Chase and Baker are the classic "light " vs. "dark" examples contrasted next to each other...

there are a few that pop up that are borderline...I can usually differentiate them because of my scrap eye....;)


I'm thinking:


the two different colors are two complete different printings spaced some time apart for some reason(this is only a theory of mine).. 2 complete different bulk ink supplies....


I think your theory regarding....two printings using different shades of blue ink is a plausible; and, does explain the light blue vs dark blue backs on the '42s.
I'll expand that thought to include UZIT cards. A fair comparison, as both these T206 backs were printed at the tail-end of the T206 press runs in the early
months of 1911.

Two years ago, I posted this thread regarding the similarity of PIEDMONT 460 factory #42 and UZIT backs with respect to blue ink differences..............
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=143471&highlight=Piedmont+460+factory+42+vs+UZIT

For example......

........................................ Dougherty .................................................. ................. Herzog .................................................. Schaefer
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bp46042-1.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/herzogUZITx50b.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/schaeferUZITx50b.jpg

Note........the porous quality of the blue ink on the backs of the Dougherty and Herzog cards vs the solid (and darker) blue of the Schaefer back.


TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Here are a few.... Busy day...

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Collage33_zps24e31920.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/hogan6g/media/Collage33_zps24e31920.jpg.html)
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Collage34_zpsd9d07be6.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/hogan6g/media/Collage34_zpsd9d07be6.jpg.html)


Be well Brian

[Gradedcardman]

My 2 lightest and my 2 darkest...a larger shot of some others...

Have duplicates and WANT to trade for others needed !!!!

"Always strive to be the person your dog thinks you are"

Adam

[atx840]

Brian & Adam :eek:

Thanks for sharing...wow!

[DerekMichael]

Seriously, Good Lord you guys!

Really like the double Cobb and double Matty Mr. Weisner ... some SERIOUS trade bait, perhaps?:D

[mrvster]

:eek::eek::eek:

OMG!!

THANKS GUYS!!

just incredible stuff.......WOW!!

Ted,

great observation.....

those displays are just jaw dropping....

Jamie just crapped a pickle;)

[tedzan]

One more PIEDMONT 460/42....Latham. Brian Weisner sent me this card 7 years ago. I had it in my "archive" stack, and had forgotten it.

Anyhow, it's a light blue back. I have not much luck finding the darker blue ones. My record on these stands 5 light blue vs. 1 dark blue.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/LathamP460x42.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/LathamP460x42b.jpg




TED Z

[tedzan]

......reminds me of the known PIEDMONT 460/42 cards in the 460-only series. My list accounts for
the following 12 subjects from this series......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


From the 350/460 series, my list accounts for 56 subjects. Tinker (bat off shoulder) is unconfirmed.

Furthermore, the 6 super-prints were also printed with P 460/42 backs, for a total of 62 subjects.


Please confirm (or correct) my list.
Thanks,


TED Z
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

DEVORE....FORD....GANDIL....McGRAW (glove)....PFEFFER....SHECKARD (glove)

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
The confirmed list of Piedmont 42's is 75... And I expect Tinker will show up eventually..... Be well Brian

http://t206resource.com/Piedmont%20350%20460%20No42%20Checklist.html



Here's another....
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Image2602_zps7375cac9.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/hogan6g/media/Image2602_zps7375cac9.jpg.html)http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Image2604_zpsfd56e52f.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/hogan6g/media/Image2604_zpsfd56e52f.jpg.html)

[mrvster]

:eek:

what a cache of 42's:eek:

btw TREX.....5 to 1 ratios are what I used to see also years ago.....thanks for the input

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Johnny,
Adam and I are trying to bring all of the Piedmont 42's back to NC where they belong....;) Be well Brian



PS I wish I had worked on this subset harder... I know one board member who is probably close to completion by now, but he hasn't chimed in yet.

[tedzan]

:eek:

what a cache of 42's:eek:

btw TREX.....5 to 1 ratios are what I used to see also years ago.....thanks for the input


Johnny

I realize that my small sample is quite anecdotal....but, I really don't see a 50-50 % of light blue vs dark blue.

Perhaps, we should start an on-going survey sampling many inputs from Net54er's on this subject, like we did on this forum years ago.


T-Rex TED

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

DEVORE....FORD....GANDIL....McGRAW (glove)....PFEFFER....SHECKARD (glove)

[DerekMichael]

I agree, everyone should post their Piedmont 42's !!! :)

It would be awesome if some sort of trend could be realized. You guys have all figured out some pretty amazing things, like the Sovereign 350 variations, the brown inked Lenox, and also some of the more blatant and visible variations like Red vs Brown Hindu and American Beauty 350 frame vs no frame. The "print groups" do a great job of making sense of why certain subjects appear in the particular back variation that they do.

Who knows, it could mean nothing, but it could also mean a whole lot. Sadly, I am stumped, and do not even own a Piedmont 42 to share, but I know at least a handful of you guys will be able to build on what are probably some very interesting theories.

I love that Orval Overall Mr. Weisner. One of my favorite cards in the set. I actually just completed my American Beauty 460 - Uzit pair after a long time in waiting, which hopefully will arrive soon!

Thanks for posting your cards guys. There are some seriously awesome combos popping up.

Derek

[Gradedcardman]

Brian,
I like the way you think !!

[tedzan]

Brian,
I like the way you think !!

I do not like the way Brian thinks :)

After he gets all the Piedmont 42's back down to North Carolina, then he will come after all the
American Beauty 460 F#42 cards :) :)



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/aamericanbeauty460.jpg
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/AB460Cobbx75xx_zpsbd913b5a.jpg



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING FOR these 6 T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES....CAMNITZ....DOYLE (port)....McGRAW (port-cap)....McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off)

[mrvster]

that's exactly what i'm striving to do....:)

in the past, the dark showed up about 25% of the time....now I almost see them 50/50....

lets try to capture as many examples in this thread....hopefully it will be an on going thread for a long time, and we can see the trend:D

[slipk1068]

Wee Tommy Leach

[mrvster]

Sweet Leach! it also has off register ......neat little error piedy dark 42:)


thanks for sharing

[tedzan]

While I understand that we cannot have confidence in pop reports to tell us absolute numbers, they can provide a relative measurement of specific cards out there.
However, this is not true with P460/42 cards. There is no way of identifying them in PSA or SGC pop reports from P460/25 cards. I'll be going over to SGC soon (only
an hour's drive) to drop off some cards; and, I will talk to the powers that be there and try to convince them to start identifying P460/42 cards on their labelling and
correspondingly in their pop reports system.


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/achasep460fac42.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/LathamP460x42.jpg

......................http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bchasep460factory42.jpg........................htt p://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/LathamP460x42b.jpg


TED Z

[mrvster]

Sgc now labels "piedmont 42" on flip, but not sure they track in population reports...

SGC ROCKS:)

[mrvster]

Thanks to Jantz getting my back on this one a few years ago;)

[tedzan]

SGC must have just started this, because my Latham was graded this July......and, it is not identified as a Factory #42.


Ted Z

[Gradedcardman]

They do now track in their pop report. I had a couple graded in July and they labeled one correctly and the other they left it off. They fixed it at the National.

[wazoo]

SGC must have just started this, because my Latham was graded this July......and, it is not identified as a Factory #42.


Ted Z

I had mine graded last year and I had them add it for me.